Know Thyself

Nothing in Excess
 
HomePortalFAQMemberlistSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Beauty, Art and Appearance

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:50 pm

Satyr wrote:
Since order is what the living organism tends towards, it finds all order attractive ...symmetry or power, or beauty are different words describing this order. That which is inferior in order/symmetry, is naturally attracted to that which is above it.
It seeks there a source for its own completion.
Beauty is symmetry/order in the material context.
Intelligence is order/symmetry in the psychological/mental context.[Encapsulation 10]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*


Last edited by Lyssa on Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:51 pm

Quote :
"Philosopher Roger Scruton presents a provocative essay on the importance of beauty in the arts and in our lives.

In the 20th century, Scruton argues, art, architecture and music turned their backs on beauty, making a cult of ugliness and leading us into a spiritual desert.

Using the thoughts of philosophers from Plato to Kant, and by talking to artists Michael Craig-Martin and Alexander Stoddart, Scruton analyses where art went wrong and presents his own impassioned case for restoring beauty to its traditional position at the center of our civilization.

For Scruton, beauty is not in the eye of the beholder, it is an objective truth—a classical notion, but one that is completely revolutionary in today’s art marketplace.
Take for example Sotheby’s recent sale of Mark Rothko’s seminal “No.1 (Royal Red and Blue)” for $75 million. The work consists of little more than a few rectangles of coordinated colors. Anyone who is not told the value of such art would find it difficult to identify it with beauty or beauty with any type of dollar value.
As Scruton narrates in his documentary, Why Beauty Matters, “In the 20th century, beauty stopped being important, art increasingly aimed to disturb and break moral taboos, it was not beauty but originality however achieved.”
The realization among artists and non-artists alike is increasingly that the emperor, in this case the art market, is wearing no clothes. Who can really respect an “emperor” who insists his parading, naked body is cloaked in the finest of garments. To the clearheaded, he’s delusional.
“One day the knowledge that the emperor has no clothes will spread, and the market will crash – but only temporarily,” said Scruton in an email interview.
The true aesthetic value, the beauty, has vanished in modern works that are selling for millions of dollars. In such works, by artists like Rothko, Franz Kline, Damien Hirst, and Tracey Emin, the beauty has been replaced by discourse. The lofty ideals of beauty are replaced by a social essay.
Scruton identifies these prominent trends visible in today’s art market: “I think the most important [trends] are the advantage conferred on people with a plausible sales talk, and the way in which the art establishment can replace spiritual with material values, by propagating art that is primarily to be owned rather than to be looked at.”
As for the undervalued art that predates the 20th century, Scruton said that such works have a lot to offer, including “beauty, humanity, and the care of the soul.”
Some of the artists he picks as the greatest include Titian, Tintoretto, Rembrandt, and Corot.
“Good art appeals to what is best in people, and sets them on the path to self-knowledge,” he said.
As for his other insights, Scruton talked about the unified goal of the arts, whether they be fine arts, performing arts, or literary arts: “They are all attempts to raise their audience from the animal to the spiritual level (except when they attempt the opposite, like the art of desecration today).”
And, if he were endowed with enough funding, he said, “I would establish schools to teach the true disciplines which are needed: life drawing, perspective and the knowledge of light and shade, in the case of visual art; materials, shadows, proportions and the Orders, in the case of architecture; harmony and counterpoint in the case of music; verse forms, rhetorical figures and the wealth of imaginative knowledge in the case of literature.”
Scruton’s simple yet powerful vision is a return to the best of classical arts. Let’s face it, Scruton is right, the emperor looks much better with clothes on."
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Video:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:31 pm

Signorelli and Salingaros wrote:

"Modern art embodies and manifests all the worst features of modern thought — the despair, the irrationality, the hostility to tradition, the confusion of scientia with techne, or wisdom with power, the misunderstanding of freedom as liberation from essence rather than perfection of essence. In short, artistic modernism is the nihilism of our epoch made incarnate. The modern world did give us a vastly improved understanding of our environment coupled with enormous power over it. We became drunk with that power and abused it abominably, yet modern science increasingly reveals the superiority of evolved solutions for furthering human civilization in a healthy and sustainable manner, compared to arbitrary artistic whims. We have equated this power with the modernist agenda, and, terrified of losing our dominance over nature, continue to subjugate creative endeavor to ideology.

This is not about aesthetics but civilization itself. We are watching the increasingly rapid dissolution of civil society on all sides of us — the failure of our schools, a breakdown of the family, the degradation of language, the abandonment of polite manners, the rape of the environment, and the replacement of a stable economy with a torrent of dangerous speculation. We do not give sufficient consideration to how far the depravity of contemporary art may be implicated in this catastrophic decline. Nothing is so important to the spiritual and mental flourishing of a people as its art. The stories they tell, the buildings they inhabit, the public spaces in which they gather, the songs they sing, the fashioned images they gaze upon — these things shape their souls more permanently and effectively than anything else. We live in a time when the art all around us accustoms men to, and insinuates into their souls, the most erroneous and degrading ideas imaginable about themselves and their world. A humane society can hardly be expected to grow out of such an adverse cultural environment."[The Tyranny of Artistic Modernism]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:39 pm

Paglia, Camille wrote:
"How did beauty begin? Earth-cult, suppressing the eye, locks man in the belly of mothers. There is, I insisted, nothing beautiful in nature. Nature is primal power, coarse, and turbulent. Beauty is or weapon against nature; by it we make objects, giving them limit, symmetry, proportion. Beauty halts and freezes the melting flux of nature....High art is non-utilitarian. That is, the art object, though retaining its ritualism, is no longer a tool of something else. Beauty is the art object's license to life. The object exists on its own, godlike. Beauty is the art object's light from within. We know it by the eye. Beauty is our escape from the murky flesh-envelope that imprisons us." [Sexual Personae]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:29 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15374
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Modern F-Art Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:50 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Modern art is the perfect reflection of the modern psychology.
A chaotic, jumbled, mess, hinting at a concept it cannot calcify.
A form of self-expression even a child can perform, or an animal, implying equalization, by using perspectivism to justify the idea that the simple can be considered complex, and the ugly can be beautiful.
No symmetry, no order, no clarity, which is what beauty is, only the siblings and blotches of a mind gone insane, trying to detach form reality, lacking talent, aesthetic appreciation, mastery, but pretentious and deluded enough to think it deserves to be heard and seen.  

The majority of modern f-art is the epitome of democratic idealism: the idea(l) that inferior/superior do not exist, and that if you find a dealer, an agent, clever enough to sell, to make you marketable, your "quality" is proven: being sold to the many, popularity, being the modern levelling of what we know as quality.

Modern f-art daring you to contradict the popular, the common, the shared decree, and having "experts" available to defends its all-levelling ugliness for a buck; building careers, livelihoods, on hypocrisy and the manipulation of human need.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Modern f-art not concerned with the real, but the unreal, the implied, the insinuated, the so abstract the observer must find the content where there is none - f-art for the masses. It is whatever you want it to be, because it is nothing; art based on impression, on fame, on personality cults, on hucksterism...the f-artists fame, his public personae being sold, not the f-art itself; being purchased by pretentious, insecure, wannabes, trying to appear as what they are not.        

The equivalent of this is how "philosophy" is being used, in our time, by the common, modern mind-farter.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of mind-farting venues populated by f-artist dedicated to detaching themselves from reality.

Words, language - it being another art form) disconnected, detaching, from the real...from the perceived. Thoughts so abstract they can mean anything to any one, because they have no reference point outside human brains...sold to pretentious, simpletons, desperately wanting to appear as thinkers, when all they are is purchasers, regurgitators, their mental walls full of scriblings, splashes, lines, they cannot explain without an "expert" - some credentialed, authority sanctioned by the institutions - telling them what they mean.

For such minds nothing can be permitted to refer to the aesthetic, cannot be permitted to become ordered, consistent, symmetrical...the democratic idea(l) depends on the perspectivism of turning all into a chaotic mess, so as to then preserve the myth of equality.
Nothing can be judged, can be valued as objectively superior, because all must be levelled down to a personal emotion, or a collective decree based on how well it sells, or how useful it is to the majority - the utility being a creation of the social, economic, cultural milieu.
Nothing must be defined, clarified, because this inhibits the all-inclusive which then produces the marketing gurus who can package and sell anything, any garbage - garbage being valued as the endlessly recyclable.

Words can now be given a general definition, but never attached to anything perceived, because this would decrease its abstractive utility.
Sex, itself a very aesthetic, appearance based, phenomenon, is an example of how the word "sex" can be detached from its natural reference point, and turned into a chaotic mess, of an idea, now implying what it cannot define, and daring the observer to contradict it. The word "sex" is what matters...because it implies, and can be connected to an emotion, a feeling, some ambiguous sensation which a reference point in nature would diminish.
The word is mystified, sanctified...which means it is retained in its most abstract form which is only obliged to refer to a book, a text, offering a general outline with multiple possibilities.

Like with the modern f-art piece: a canvas with different shapes, intentionally or accidentally, placed there, alluding to something but not clarifying, because this would inhibit multiple interpretation...perspectives, from using it for their own goals.
The f-art piece must remain democratic...accessible by the sophisticate and the simpleton...useful to both for their own reasons.
The f-artist, having found the perfect salesman, can now indulge in mindless f-arting, knowing that his public personae is being sold, through his f-arts...same as famous "intellectuals".
The f-artist must only remain unclear enough to be useful, accessible, to the many...and then ride his fame towards riches. His every f-art is the work of "genius" once the marketing agencies get done with constructing his social image.

Recently I heard Beyonce, in an interview, refer to her music as "art", and to herself as an artist...I almost gagged.
A dumb chick, who is more of a performer than an artist, becoming famous because her image sells, to ugly, girls who dream of being more.

F-Art is more about performing.
One performs it as one farts.
The right agent can turn that fart into a perfume, bottle it in a pretty, seductive, little bottle, and turn farting into an artistic expression a career can be constructed upon.
The modern f-artist is all about the performance, and not about the content.
The words are his colours, and his linguistic performance is judged by how many find it impressive, or comforting, or seductive, or appealing on an emotional, sensational, level.
And what do the masses find seductive?
That which makes their existence bearable...nothing which challenges them and their comfort zones.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Recidivist

avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 471
Join date : 2012-04-30
Age : 42
Location : Exile

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:00 pm

Great deconstruction of modern F-Art.

I remember the now tarnished advertizing guru Charles Saatchi referring to the artist Damien Hirst as a genius, because of his pseudo-philosophical concept-shock F-Art. That was back in the late eighties.

Hirst went round Saatchi's house and refused to leave until the guru agreed to visit his art show. It seems as though fame and notoriety were always Hirst's primary goals, the F-Art was merely a vehicle for achieving it. How pathetic and demeaning that he grovelled enthusiastically at the feet of a wealthy Jew to achieve it.

Many times he seemed like a working class thug from a broken home (his father abandoned the family when he was twelve and he was caught several times for shoplifting), with a knack for the showy and sensational. He was fascinated as a teenager by pathology books and images of disease and injury... already a mind with a nihilistic bent showing its genetic history. It's typical of the modern F-Art that is obsessed with decay and spiritual malaise. Walking through an art college is like walking through a junk yard, filled with members of the self-obsessed middle classes navel gazing and fixating on rusting metal or broken street furniture.

It's like Hirst was at the fore front of this renewed attack on art, which took its energy from a loathing of traditional European culture that had its origins back in the early twentieth century (but with some added need to do violence to it), and the idea that everyone had a right to express themselves, but especially those who were seen as 'oppressed' by cultural Marxists. It was the free market nurtured by Thatcher at the time that really unleashed this tidal wave of reveling in what was base. The more common and coarse the louder it should be trumpeted.

I remember another artist of the time, Tracy Emin, exhibiting a tent with the names of all the people she had slept with stitched inside. I mean, how much more disgustingly narcissistic can you get? I still cannot understand why anyone would want to go and see it.

Liberal art historians describe the art scene prior to Hirst and the YBA's as 'lacklustre'.

Recently, Saatchi has said that,
Quote :
Hirst was worth his reputed £100 million fortune "only if you think about art as entertainment".


When Hirst attempted to do some real art the critics laughed at his work, describing it as dull, amateurish and adolescent. I think if there is a place for the absolute in our philosophy it is when judging matters of quality, because Hirst's paintings are absolute shit.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
"In terms of the legacy Hirst leaves, his personality and the brand he's created around himself will really be what's remmebered."


Last edited by Recidivist on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Anfang

avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 2129
Join date : 2013-01-23
Age : 34
Location : CET

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:23 am

His paintings remind me of using MS-Paint and inverting the colours of pictures.

I think modern art is all a big communal performance act. The secret project name is "The Emperor's New Cloths".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
apaosha
Daeva
avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 1613
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 31
Location : Ireland

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:44 am

When I was in Art College, they were always telling me not to be "representational". It all had to be as abstract and meaningless as possible.

Just..... flail at the canvas. Make shapes. Emote. Do not symbolize, do not create meaning, do not represent or communicate any feeling, thought or emotion to the viewer.

The worst for this was some middle-aged american woman that they'd imported from New York. She precided over collage instruction where she urged us to cut up fashion magazines and create images from the pieces. She did not care about how crap the results were.

_________________
"I do not exhort you to work but to battle; I do not exhort you to peace but to victory. May your work be a battle; may your peace be a victory." -TSZ
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://knowthyself.forumotion.net
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:42 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:43 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:43 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:44 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:47 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:48 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:03 pm

Something Sauwelios said on another forum a while ago:

Quote :
"*Woman fulfills, man promises.* -- Through woman, Nature shows what
she [Nature] has brought to completion thus far; through man [der
Mann, "the male human being"] she shows, what she had to overcome on
the way, but also, what *designs* she still has with man [der Mensch,
"the human being"]. The perfect woman of every time is the idleness of
the creator at every seventh day of culture, the reposing of the
artist in his work."
[Mixed Opinions and Maxims, section 274, entire.]

Thus the perfect woman is a higher type of man [Mensch] than the
perfect man, as woman shows the present, whereas man shows the past
and the future. Woman shows what has actually been attained, whereas
man only shows what there was before that attainment, as well as what
is still to be attained. So the perfect woman embodies what has been
attained (per-fected), whereas the perfect man embodies past and
present de-fects. Therefore the perfect woman is a higher type of man
than the perfect man. By "embody" I mean "represent perfectly", by the
way.

A difference in potential

From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
When distinction of feature and symmetry of form were added to this charm of youthfulness, the Greeks admitted, as true artists are obliged to do, that the male body displays harmonies of proportion and melodies of outline more comprehensive, more indicative of strength expressed in terms of grace, than that of women. I guard myself against saying--more seductive to the senses, more soft, more delicate, more undulating. The superiority of male beauty does not consist in these attractions, but in the symmetrical development of all the qualities of the human frame, the complete organisation of the body as the supreme instrument of vital energy. In the bloom of
adolescence the elements of feminine grace, suggested rather than expressed, are combined with virility to produce a perfection which is lacking to the mature and adult excellence of either sex. The Greek lover, if I am right in the idea which I have formed of him, sought less to stimulate desire by the contemplation of sensual charms than to attune his spirit with the spectacle of strength at rest in suavity. He admired the chastened lines, the figure slight but sinewy, the limbs well-knit and flexible, the small head set upon broad shoulders, the keen eyes, the austere reins, and the elastic movement of a youth made vigorous by exercise. Physical perfection of this kind suggested to his fancy all that he loved best in moral qualities. Hardihood, self-discipline, alertness of intelligence, health, temperance, indomitable spirit, energy, the joy of active life, plain living and high thinking--these qualities the Greeks idealised, and of these, "the lightning vision of the darling," was the living incarnation. There is plenty in their literature to show that paiderastia obtained sanction from the belief that a soul of this sort would be found within the body of a young man rather than a woman. I need scarcely add that none but a race of artists could be lovers of this sort, just as none but a race of poets were adequate to apprehend the chivalrous enthusiasm for woman as an object of worship.

Quote :
The first reflection which must occur to even prejudiced observers is that paiderastia did not corrupt the Greek imagination to any serious extent. The license of Paganism found appropriate expression in female forms, but hardly touched the male; nor would it, I think, be possible to demonstrate that obscene works of painting or of sculpture were provided for paiderastic sensualists similar to those pornographic object's which fill the reserved cabinet of the Neapolitan Museum. Thus, the testimony of Greek art might be used to confirm the asseveration of Greek literature, that among free men, at least, and gentle, this passion tended even to purify feelings which in their lust for women verged on profligacy. For one androgynous statue of Hermaphroditus or Dionysus there are at least a score of luxurious Aphrodites and voluptuous Bacchantes. Erôs; himself, unless he is portrayed, according to the Roman type of Cupid, as a mischievous urchin, is a youth whose modesty is no less noticeable than his beauty. His features are not unfrequently shadowed with melancholy, as appears in the so-called Genius of the Vatican, and in many statues which might pass for genii of silence or of sleep as well as love. It would be difficult to adduce a single wanton Erôs, a single image of this god provocative of sensual desires. There is not one before which we could say--The sculptor of that statue had sold his soul to paiderastic lust. Yet Erôs it may be remembered, was the special patron of paiderastia.

Greek art, like Greek mythology, embodied a finely graduated half-unconscious analysis of human nature. The mystery of procreation was indicated by phalli on the Hermæ. Unbridled appetite found incarnation in Priapus, who, moreover, was never a Greek god, but a Lampsacene adopted from the Asian coast by the Romans. The natural desires were symbolised in Aphrodite Praxis, Kallipugos, or Pandemos. The higher sexual enthusiasm assumed celestial form in Aphrodite Ouranios. Love itself appeared personified in the graceful Erôs of Praxiteles; and how sublimely Pheidias presented this god to the eyes of his worshippers can now only be guessed at from a mutilated fragment among the Elgin marbles. The wild and native instincts, wandering, untutored and untamed, which still connect man with the life of woods and beasts and April hours, received half-human shape in Pan and Silenus, the Satyrs and the Fauns. In this department of semi-bestial instincts we find one solitary instance bearing upon paiderastia. The group of a Satyr tempting a youth at Naples stands alone among numerous

similar compositions which have female or hermaphroditic figures, and which symbolise the violent and comprehensive lust of brutal appetite. Further distinctions between the several degrees of love were drawn by the Greek artists. Himeros, the desire that strikes the spirit through the eyes, and Pothos, the longing of souls in separation from the object of their passion, were carved together with Erôs by Scopas for Aphrodite's temple at Megara. Throughout the whole of this series there is no form set aside for paiderastia, as might have been expected if the fancy of the Greeks had idealised a sensual Asiatic passion. Statues of Ganymede carried to heaven by the eagle are, indeed, common enough in Græco-Roman plastic art; yet even here there is nothing which indicates the preference for a specifically voluptuous type of male beauty

The male form arouses the feeling of temperance itself. It's more concrete, angular and statuesque in appearance. A woman's form seems more deceptive, necessarily, and arouses the most extreme emotions. Everything about a woman's form is meant to draw you in and spit you back out. It can be both the most intoxicating and most abject thing. A man's form is more reflective. A man's form build's to a peak and this is part of its beauty (short-lived as it may be). It would seem nihilistic to divorce philosophy from a love of physical beauty considering European beauty runs side by side with it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15374
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:34 pm

Only an emasculated "male", like Sauwelios, who spent years kissing the master's arse, and idolizing the idol-breaker, would place a female on such a pedestal - these days he's worshipping his rightful masters, through the Jew Strauss.

If "perfect" means a reflective mirror, casting back whatever is most immediate (modern), as unaffected by personal influences as possible, then he has found his perfect human in the passive.

Man can achieve the height or the depth, most often the latter, and this makes him human beyond the animalistic.
An animal is as primal and natural as you can get.
One does not idolize animals nor their purity.

Woman is passive enough to become a willing means to a creative mind's ends.
a male can be noble or he can tumble to the depths of nihilistic despair, and a woman will always be present to serve and service his ideals.
As a representation of nature, which is what a female is, she is a yay-sayer to life, as Ludovici said, but she has no clue how or why...she feels and intuits everything, because nature is also unconscious.
Man gives focus, and clarity to everything he does, including his own degradation. He must justify it, and not only feel it in his bones and boners.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:16 pm

Satyr wrote:
Only an emasculated "male", like Sauwelios, who spent years kissing the master's arse, and idolizing the idol-breaker, would place a female on such a pedestal - these days he's worshipping his rightful masters, through the Jew Strauss.

Well, he's interpreting a quote from Nietzsche there. Sauwelios doesn't idolize Nietzsche. I think it's important to recognize the different pace people have in appropriating material before disregarding.

Quote :
Woman is passive enough to become a willing means to a creative mind's ends.
a male can be noble or he can tumble to the depths of nihilistic despair, and a woman will always be present to serve and service his ideals.
As a representation of nature, which is what a female is, she is a yay-sayer to life, as Ludovici said, but she has no clue how or why...she feels and intuits everything, because nature is also unconscious.

Generally yes, but there are women who can intellectualize their feelings very well, so the difference becomes something much more subtle between a man and woman... or it has to or else there would be no more gender differentiation.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
OhFortunae

avatar

Gender : Male Scorpio Posts : 2479
Join date : 2013-10-26
Age : 24
Location : Land of Dance and Song

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

''The modernist thirst for originality makes the mediocre artist believe that the secret of originality consists simply in being different.''

“Whoever does not move among works of art as if among dangerous animals does not know among what he moves.”

— Nicolás Gómez Dávila

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
View user profile https://plus.google.com/u/0/109705167311303906720/posts
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15374
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:51 pm

"Thirst" for originality is found amongst those who feel the most unoriginal.
The wish to be noticed is part of the herd psychology.

In uniformity cultures it is a way of standing-out while, at the same time, believing in uniformity.
This forces the individual to go to extremes or to go towards the abstract, alluding to what, in reality, he cannot be.
To be different would actually contradict his own ideals which are about oneness, sameness, being one and the same.

The modern mind must make the different something superficial, or something extreme, vulgar, unattractive.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:28 pm

Satyr wrote:
"Thirst" for originality is found amongst those who feel the most unoriginal.
The wish to be noticed is part of the herd psychology.

In uniformity cultures it is a way of standing-out while, at the same time, believing in uniformity.
This forces the individual to go to extremes or to go towards the abstract, alluding to what, in reality, he cannot be.
To be different would actually contradict his own ideals which are about oneness, sameness, being one and the same.

The modern mind must make the different something superficial, or something extreme, vulgar, unattractive.    

Sounds like the majority of students!
Back to top Go down
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:28 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
Something Sauwelios said on another forum a while ago:

Quote :
"*Woman fulfills, man promises.* -- Through woman, Nature shows what
she [Nature] has brought to completion thus far; through man [der
Mann, "the male human being"] she shows, what she had to overcome on
the way, but also, what *designs* she still has with man [der Mensch,
"the human being"]. The perfect woman of every time is the idleness of
the creator at every seventh day of culture, the reposing of the
artist in his work."
[Mixed Opinions and Maxims, section 274, entire.]

Thus the perfect woman is a higher type of man [Mensch] than the
perfect man, as woman shows the present, whereas man shows the past
and the future. Woman shows what has actually been attained, whereas
man only shows what there was before that attainment, as well as what
is still to be attained. So the perfect woman embodies what has been
attained (per-fected), whereas the perfect man embodies past and
present de-fects. Therefore the perfect woman is a higher type of man
than the perfect man. By "embody" I mean "represent perfectly", by the
way.


Where is Sauwelios saying that?

I recall him saying the exact same thing, word to word, three years ago...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Quote :

A difference in potential

To me, that quote reads as N. saying The Woman always reveals the current state of A culture. She reveals the man-Become 'so far'. And Man is always a becoming.

Quote :

From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The male form arouses the feeling of temperance itself.  It's more concrete, angular and statuesque in appearance.  A woman's form seems more deceptive, necessarily, and arouses the most extreme emotions.  Everything about a woman's form is meant to draw you in and spit you back out.  It can be both the most intoxicating and most abject thing.  A man's form is more reflective.  A man's form build's to a peak and this is part of its beauty (short-lived as it may be).  It would seem nihilistic to divorce philosophy from a love of physical beauty considering European beauty runs side by side with it.

Have you also read Winckelmann by any chance? Maybe his writings would interest you; he was both pro-homoagape and a homo-erotic;

Quote :
The erotic obsession permeating Winckelmann’s writings was not apparent in the eyes of his contemporaries, nor to his immediate posterity—or at any rate, it was not discussed.[61] It was only the generations absorbing the influence of Nietzsche—who thoroughly transformed the image of antiquity, opposing Dionysos to Winckelmann’s Apollo—that could discern the Dionysian element in Winckelmann’s works. „The fixed, static character of Winckelmann’s aesthetic ideal lies, essentially, in the transposition into terms of art of an erotic substratum such as his, where an immense sum of energy was employed in a hallucinatory idolization of the beloved object…” – writes Mario Praz.[62] Alex Potts, one of his most recent monographers, notes that in Winckelmann’s works, the connection between the nakedness of the Greeks and the ideal of subjective and political freedom is stronger than in the works of any of his contemporaries, even though he saw the dark, violent, conflicted and lethal—with some exaggeration one might say Sadeian—aspect of absolute freedom.[63] Yet such knowledge had to be concealed, if for no other reason because of its homoerotic associations. Thus the emphasis was placed not on the esoteric-erotic implications of his teachings but on its exoteric-heroic content: on noble simplicity and tranquil greatness, on the harnessing of passion and suffering, on dignity, discipline, sublimity, and immaterial beauty. A two-fold ideal appears, the beautiful and the sublime, whose duality corresponds to Winckelmann’s historical division between the epoch of the „high” (strong) style of Phidias, Polyclitus, Scopas, Myron, and Alcamenes, and the epoch of the „beautiful” style of Praxiteles, Lysippus, Apelles. Its theoretical framework can be found in the distinction between two sorts of grace (high and beautiful), between the celestial and the earthly, whose alternation can take place within the description of the same work.[64]  
In its erotic and heroic[65]—beautiful and sublime—form, as well as in its mixed form, Greek nakedness is the principal symbol of liberty for Winckelmann. Although the connection between nakedness and liberty was not fixed in a system of allegorical or iconographic symbols, nakedness, charged with ancient associations, had been linked to modern notions of liberty since the Renaissance. For the contemporaries, Michelangelo’s David was a symbol for liberty.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
"As it is confessedly the beauty of man which is to be conceived under one general idea, so I have noticed that those who are observant of beauty only in women, and are moved little or not at all by the beauty of men, seldom have an impartial, vital, inborn instinct for beauty in art. To such persons the beauty of Greek art will ever seem wanting, because its supreme beauty is rather male than female." [Winckelmann]


"The power of love in its extreme form must be expressed in all possible ways

I thee both as Man and Woman prize
For a perfect love implies
Love in all capacities.
                                       Cowley

and that is the foundation on which the undying friendships of the ancient world, those of Theseus and Pirithous, of Achilles and Patroclus, were built. Friendship without love is only acquaintance. The other, however, is heroic and sublime above all else; it humiliates the willing friend till he grovels in the dust and it drives him to the day of his death. All virtue is in some measure weakened by other proclivities and in some measure capable of false pretences; a friendship that extends to the outer limits of humanity bursts forth with violence and is the highest virtue now unknown to mortals, and is thus also the greatest good they can possess. Christian morality does not teach this; the heathens, however, prayed to it, and the greatest deeds of antiquity were accomplished through it." [Winckelmann]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Quote :
Sauwelios doesn't idolize Nietzsche.

You don't know his history.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:29 am

Lyssa wrote:
Where is Sauwelios saying that?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
To me, that quote reads as N. saying The Woman always reveals the current state of A culture. She reveals the man-Become 'so far'. And Man is always a becoming.

That's an accurate way of putting it yet.  How might a woman reveal the current state of a culture?  Or what about her reveals this?


   "*Woman fulfills, man promises.* -- Through woman, Nature shows what
   she [Nature] has brought to completion thus far; through man [der
   Mann, "the male human being"] she shows, what she had to overcome on
   the way, but also, what *designs* she still has with man [der Mensch,
   "the human being"]. The perfect woman of every time is the idleness of
   the creator at every seventh day of culture, the reposing of the
   artist in his work."

How woman act as a metaphor for Nietzsche is really interesting.  

Trying to dig up more analysis for that quote lead to here: unfortunately the google preview cuts off at the juicy part... but still,

Quote :
We see each other and ourselves as something: as selves, as whole, as women, as men, as citizens, as a number concept-metaphors that delimit us and our roles.  By contrast, we do not see ourselves as chains of nerve impulses, or if we do (as Nietzsche thinks Hamlet did [ BT 7], we fall prey to vertigo and cannot function.  As metaphors, and by using metaphors, we forget ourselves as “eternal imperfection,” and perhaps even carry a goddess or two across the river.

“A complete thing” or a perfect” thing is often metaphorized as woman in Nietzsche’s texts, and sometimes as divine woman; “poetry,” for instance, is a goddess.  An aphorism in volume 2 of Human, All Too Human establishes the gendered complete/incomplete contrast.  Its title is “Woman fulfills…

The metaphor of carrying a goddess across the river of becoming conveys an intuition about the experience of creativity, and, self-reflexively, it demonstrates how a good “new” metaphor works in breaking down conceptual barriers.  Goddess and human male, two separate categories, have been fused in one – or rather, the barriers, those prison walls confining the two in separate quarters, have fallen.  In this instance Nietzsche has most certainly “appropriated” the feminine  as metaphor to describe the male artist’s creative pride and joy in his work.  By doing so, he has taken the ready-made “woman” and given her a new setting, a new context.  Since she is a goddess, his models for this undertaking are the ancient epics of Homer and Virgil, where goddesses ( Athena, especially ) simply take over a hero’s body during a crucial time in order to “inspire” him.  Through the creative process, the aphorism implies, an artist is thus taken over – and yet he remains in charge; he is carrying the goddess, not the reverse.  The obvious analogy here is to woman’s role as child bearer

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
Have you also read Winckelmann by any chance? Maybe his writings would interest you; he was both pro-homoagape and a homo-erotic;

Well, now I'm very interested.

In all seriousness, I think there are rare cases of homosexuality that give individuals incredible charge, an element of immense pride in asserting male beauty beyond embellishment and not as some shallow, grossed out rejection of female sexuality either.  These individuals definitely add positively to culture...but Nietzsche is something else.

Nietzsche's intensity( and intensity is what really attracts men to men), his moving beyond simple divisions of gender seems like it could bring out potentials in man and woman and a more natural type of people where maybe male beauty has an elevated place but not quite where the Greeks had it... I dunno..

I'll have to research the place of beauty in Germanic cultures too because we have a mishmash of cultures now and a mishmash of temperaments.


Quote :
Quote :
   Sauwelios doesn't idolize Nietzsche.


You don't know his history.

I know enough.  I know Satyr won't elaborate on why he thinks Sauwrlios idolizes Nietzsche, but maybe you can?  You seem to know Nietzsche very well.  Do you share Saytr's opinion.  To call Sauwelios an idolizer without qualifying the label with a more accurate interpretation of Nietzsche, seems dishonest.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15374
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:50 pm

What would you like me to elaborate/

Sauwelios spent half a decade - as long as I've known about him - quoting, deferring, referring, regurgitating endlessly the "sacred texts".
Nietzsche, the idol breaker, suffers from the same fate as Jesus did - he becomes the representative of all he opposed.  

Then, after all those years of idolizing his mentor, Sauwelios realizes his true nature, through Strauss, and he admits to being a liberal democrat.

He has the spirit of a female: cooing, and worshipping, and surrendering with a passion.

For him I'm a Schopenhaurean because like Schopenhauer, and Nietzsche, the negative essence of existence is what I repeat, in a world full of delusional children, full of positive fairy-tales.
Nietzsche was not anti-Schopenhauer....he was against his old mentor's solution to what both saw as being real.

For Sauwelios, because reality must be told to women and children with a positive twist, I am negative...yet, unlike both his forgotten mentor and Schopenhauer, and him, no less, I've chosen to reaffirm life, and to accept the costs, by having a child.

He is clueless.
Anyone who cannot see the ironic contradiction is worshipping and parroting Nietzsche for a decade, only to fall into the arms of the Jews, must be a bit feminine in his awareness.
Reminds me of Paul, the Apostle.

Did not Nietzsche, himself, say that his words would be misunderstood and that he was talking over the heads of those who would not understand, and that his own kind would do damage to him?
Can't go to the quoting because I left Nietzsche behind eight years ago, choosing to honour him through my absorption of what he taught me, as this combined with what many others taught me, including Heidegger, his student, and Schopenhauer, most notably, his teacher.

Luckily for me I read the three in the appropriate order.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:59 pm

I'll respectfully disagree with your assessment. Refer to Beyond Good and Evil section 211.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
But the real philosophers are commanders and lawgivers: they say "That is how it should be!" They determine first the "Where to?" and the "What for?" of human beings, and, as they do this, they have at their disposal the preliminary work of all philosophical labourers, all those who have overpowered the past - they reach with their creative hands to grasp the future. In that process, everything which is and has been becomes a means for them, an instrument, a hammer. Their "knowing" is creating; their creating is establishing laws; their will to truth is - will to power.

That's something so rare... Just because someone else labors for knowledge and understands his rank, doesn't make him "emasculated."

Quote :
The task of these researchers is to make everything that has happened and which has been valued up to now clear, easy to imagine, intelligible, and manageable, to shorten everything lengthy, even "time" itself, and to overpower the entire past, a huge and marvellous task, in whose service every sophisticated pride and every tough will can certainly find satisfaction

Now if your contention is with the quality of his "work,"(or if you even consider it to be "work" as understand in that passage), or its usefulness for the philosopher, that's a different matter.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15374
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:48 pm

Unlike you, him, and many others, quoting text, his text, is not an argument.

Knowing is creating, in the sense that the brain abstracts reality...it interprets it.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

To remain a boy, a student, and feel pride in this, exposes your spirit.
What is a stunted man, if into a female, a boy?
Children and women are the purest representations of nature, because they have no understanding to inhibit, question, and trying to overcome.

But you missed the last part: He is now a self-confessed liberal democrat.
Now, I ask you, is Nietzsche advocating liberalism?
Did he disagree with Schopenhauer's assessment of reality, or only with his response, his method of coping?
Was he seeking followers, fawning men-children who could not utter a phrase without his words coming out?



_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:51 pm

Quote :
But you missed the last part: He is now a self-confessed liberal democrat.
Now, I ask you, is Nietzsche advocating liberalism?
Did he disagree with Schopenhauer's assessment of reality, or only with his response, his method of coping?

Can you point me to that thread on ILP... I'll search for it tomorrow anyways... Nietzsche isn't concerned with being political I don't think, there is no normative political theory in his philosophy... philosophy rules above it. I'll eventually get around to reading Strauss's "Note on the Plan of Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil" and Laurence Lampert's study of Strauss.

From Twilight of the Idols:

Quote :
Schopenhauer. — Schopenhauer, the last German worthy of consideration (who represents a European event like Goethe, like Hegel, like Heinrich Heine, and not merely a local event, a "national" one), is for a psychologist a first- rate case: namely, as a maliciously ingenious attempt to adduce in favor of a nihilistic total depreciation of life precisely the counter-instances, the great self-affirmations of the "will to life," life's forms of exuberance. He has interpreted art, heroism, genius, beauty, great sympathy, knowledge, the will to truth, and tragedy, in turn, as consequences of "negation" or of the "will's" need to negate — the greatest psychological counterfeit in all history, not counting Christianity. On closer inspection, he is at this point merely the heir of the Christian interpretation: only he knew how to approve that which Christianity had repudiated, the great cultural facts of humanity — albeit in a Christian, that is, nihilistic, manner (namely, as ways of "redemption," as anticipations of "redemption," as stimuli of the need for "redemption").

22 I take a single case. Schopenhauer speaks of beauty with a melancholy fervor. Why? Because he sees in it a bridge on which one will go farther, or develop a thirst to go farther. Beauty is for him a momentary redemption from the "will" — a lure to eternal redemption. Particularly, he praises beauty as the redeemer from "the focal point of the will," from sexuality — in beauty he sees the negation of the drive toward procreation. Queer saint! Somebody seems to be contradicting you; I fear it is nature. To what end is there any such thing as beauty in tone, color, fragrance, or rhythmic movement in nature? What is it that beauty evokes? Fortunately, a philosopher contradicts him too. No lesser authority than that of the divine Plato (so Schopenhauer himself calls him) maintains a different proposition: that all beauty incites procreation, that just this is the proprium of its effect, from the most sensual up to the most spiritual.

Quote :
Was he seeking followers, fawning men-children who could not utter a phrase without his words coming out?

No, but that's not what Sauwelios is doing.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:22 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
Where is Sauwelios saying that?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks. Mr.Moore is a kind man.

Quote :

Quote :
To me, that quote reads as N. saying The Woman always reveals the current state of A culture. She reveals the man-Become 'so far'. And Man is always a becoming.

That's an accurate way of putting it yet.  How might a woman reveal the current state of a culture?  Or what about her reveals this?

See the extensive passage on The Greek Woman;

Quote :
"From the State the individual has to receive everything in order to return everything to the State. Woman accordingly means to the State, what sleep does to man.  In her nature lies the healing power, which replaces that which has been used up, the beneficial rest in which everything immoderate confines itself, the eternal Same, by which the excessive and the surplus regulate themselves.  In her the future generation dreams.  Woman is more closely related to Nature than man and in all her essentials she remains ever herself. Culture is with her always something external, a something which does not touch the kernel that is eternally faithful to Nature, therefore the culture of woman might well appear to the Athenian as something indifferent, yea-if one only wanted to conjure it up in one's mind, as something ridiculous.  He who at once feels himself compelled from that to infer the position of women among the Greeks as unworthy and all too cruel, should not indeed take as his criterion the " culture " of modern woman and her claims, against which it is sufficient just to point out the Olympian women together with Penelope, Antigone, Elektra.  Of course it is true that these are ideal figures, but who would be able to create such ideals out of the present world?-Further indeed is to be considered what sons these women have borne, and what women they must have been to have given birth to such sons!  The Hellenic woman as mother had to live in obscurity, because the political instinct together with its highest aim demanded it.  She had to vegetate like a plant, in the narrow circle, as a symbol of the Epicurean wisdom (living unseen, unknown).  

Home-education considers itself so to speak as the only natural one and suffers State-education only as a questionable infringement upon the right of home-education : all this is right as far as the modern State only is concerned.-With that the nature of woman withal remains unaltered, but herpower is, according to the position which the State takes up with regard to women, a different one.  Women have indeed really the power to make good to a certain extent the deficiencies of the State-ever faithful to their nature, which I have compared to sleep.  In Greek antiquity they held that position, which the most supreme will of the State assigned to them: for that reason they have been glorified as never since.  The goddesses of Greek mythology are their images: the Pythia and the Sibyl, as well as the Socratic Diotima are the priestesses out of whom divine wisdom speaks.  Now one understands why the proud resignation of the Spartan woman at the news of her son's death in battle can be no fable.  Woman in relation to the State felt herself in her proper position, therefore she had more dignity than woman has ever had since.  

As long as the State is still in an embryonic condition woman as mother preponderates and determines the grade and the manifestations of Culture: in the same way as woman is destined to complement the disorganised State.  What Tacitus says of German women: inesse quin etiam sanctum aliquid et providum putant, nec aut consilia earum aspernantur aut responsa neglegunt, applies on the whole to all nations not yet arrived at the real State.  In such stages one feels only the more strongly that which at all times becomes again manifest, that the instincts of woman as the bulwark of the future generation are invincible and that in her care for the preservation of the species Nature speaks out of these instincts very distinctly.  

How far this divining power reaches is determined, it seems, by the greater or lesser consolidation of the State: in disorderly and more arbitrary conditions, where the whim or the passion of the individual man carries along with itself whole tribes, then woman suddenly comes forward as the warning prophetess.  But in Greece too there was a never slumbering care that the terribly overcharged political instinct might splinter into dust and atoms the little political organisms before they attained their goals in any way.  Here the Hellenic Will created for itself ever new implements by means of which it spoke, adjusting, moderating, warning: above all it is in the Pythia, that the power of woman to compensate the State manifested itself so clearly, as it has never done since.  That a people split up thus into small tribes and municipalities, was yet at bottom whole and was performing the task of its nature within its faction, was assured by that wonderful phenomenon the Pythia and the Delphian oracle: for always, as long as Hellenism created its great works of art, it spoke out of one mouth and as one Pythia.  
We cannot hold back the portentous discernment that to the Will individuation means much suffering, and that in order to reach those individuals It needs an enormous step-ladder of individuals.  It is true our brains reel with the consideration whether the Will in order to arrive at Art, has perhaps effused Itself out into these worlds, stars, bodies, and atoms: at least it ought to become clear to us then, that Art is not necessary for the individuals, but for the Will itself..."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The 'she ever remains herself' - that Being-ness and man as the constant Be-coming, as the art form itself disposed off by the Will is echoed by Georg Simmel in his work 'On women, love and sexuality', where he contrasts the feminine fidelity owing to an undifferentiated psyche with masculine infidelity owing to his differentiating psyche [pgs.74-80].

Also, consider the next observation, tying her with the grade of A culture;


Quote :
"They wish to "cultivate" her in general still more, and intend, as they say, to make the "weaker sex" STRONG by culture: as if history did not teach in the most emphatic manner that the "cultivating" of mankind and his weakening--that is to say, the weakening, dissipating, and languishing of his FORCE OF WILL--have always kept pace with one another, and that the most powerful and influential women in the world (and lastly, the mother of Napoleon) had just to thank their force of will--and not their schoolmasters--for their power and ascendancy over men. That which inspires respect in woman, and often enough fear also, is her NATURE, which is more "natural" than that of man, her genuine, carnivora-like, cunning flexibility, her tiger-claws beneath the glove, her NAIVETE in egoism, her untrainableness and innate wildness, the incomprehensibleness, extent, and deviation of her desires and virtues.
That which, in spite of fear, excites one's sympathy for the dangerous and beautiful cat, "woman," is that she seems more afflicted, more vulnerable, more necessitous of love, and more condemned to disillusionment than any other creature. Fear and sympathy it is with these feelings that man has hitherto stood in the presence of woman, always with one foot already in tragedy, which rends while it delights--What? And all that is now to be at an end? And the DISENCHANTMENT of woman is in progress? The tediousness of woman is slowly evolving? Oh Europe! Europe! We know the horned animal which was always most attractive to thee, from which danger is ever again threatening thee! Thy old fable might once more become "history"--an immense stupidity might once again overmaster thee and carry thee away! And no God concealed beneath it--no! only an "idea," a "modern idea"!" [BGE, 239]

You could also compare her [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] nature to your earlier comment,

Perpetual wrote:
The male form arouses the feeling of temperance itself. It's more concrete, angular and statuesque in appearance. A woman's form seems more deceptive, necessarily, and arouses the most extreme emotions. Everything about a woman's form is meant to draw you in and spit you back out. It can be both the most intoxicating and most abject thing. A man's form is more reflective. A man's form build's to a peak and this is part of its beauty (short-lived as it may be). It would seem nihilistic to divorce philosophy from a love of physical beauty considering European beauty runs side by side with it.


perpetual wrote:
How woman act as a metaphor for Nietzsche is really interesting.

Are you writing a comprehensive paper on this? Are you into Nietzschean philosophy or gender sociology more?

One such functional metaphor to Nietzsche is Distance;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An interesting parallel between N. and Weininger;

Quote :
"Women and their Effect in the Distance. Have I still ears? Am I only ear, and nothing else besides? Here I stand in the midst of the surging of the breakers, whose white flames fork up to my feet; from all sides there is howling, threatening, crying, and screaming at me, while in the lowest depths the old earth-shaker sings his aria hollow like a roaring bull; he beats such an earth-shaker’s measure thereto, that even the hearts of these weathered rock-monsters tremble at the sound. Then, suddenly, as if born out of nothingness, there appears before the portal of this hellish labyrinth, only a few fathoms distant, a great sailing-ship gliding silently along like a ghost. Oh, this ghostly beauty! With what enchantment it seizes me! What? Has all the repose and silence in the world embarked here? Does my happiness itself sit in this quiet place, my happier ego, my second immortalised self? Still not dead, but also no longer living? As a ghost-like, calm, gazing, gliding, sweeping, neutral being? Similar to the ship, which, with its white sails, like an immense butterfly, passes over the dark sea! Yes! Passing over existence! That is it! That would be it! —— It seems that the noise here has made me a visionary? All great noise causes one to place happiness in the calm and the distance. When a man is in the midst of his hubbub, in the midst of the breakers of his plots and plans, he there sees perhaps calm, enchanting beings glide past him, for whose happiness and retirement he longs they are women. He almost thinks that there with the women dwells his better self; that in these calm places even the loudest breakers become still as death, and life itself a dream of life. But still! but still! my noble enthusiast, there is also in the most beautiful sailing-ship so much noise and bustling, and alas, so much petty, piti able bustling! The enchantment and the most powerful effect of women is, to use the language of philosophers, an effect at a distance, an actio in distans; there belongs thereto, however, primarily and above all, distance!" [N., JW, 60]

Quote :
"On the other hand, the high esteem in which virginity is held originally came from men, and still does so where there are any men left: it is Man’s projection of his own immanent ideal of immaculate purity on the object of his love.
Man demands chastity both from himself and from others, and he demands it most from the being that he loves.

Beauty itself is a projection, or emanation, of the desire to love. Therefore, the beauty of Woman is not something different from love, not an object to which love is directed. The beauty of Woman is the love of Man. Love and beauty are not two different facts, but one and the same. Just as ugliness derives from hate, beauty derives from love. The fact that beauty has as little to do with the sexual drive as love, and that both love and beauty are alien to desire, expresses the same thing. Beauty is something untouchable, inviolable, which cannot be mixed with other things. It can only be seen as if it were near from a long distance, and it retreats before any approach. The sensual drive, which seeks union with Woman, destroys her beauty. A woman who has been handled and possessed is no longer worshipped by anybody for her beauty." [Weininger, Sex and Character]


You could say Distance provides that sense of Being, of a Culture - which woman represents,,, while a closer approach exposes the Turmoil of Becoming, the ugliness, the transition, the impurity, the volatility of Nature...
At a distance, Woman is the Apollonian illusion, perfection of a steadfast grade of a culture; she IS the veil hiding the dionysian transitions of man's be-coming. Woman:Culture = Man:Art/Artist

Perpetual wrote:

Trying to dig up more analysis for that quote lead to here: unfortunately the google preview cuts off at the juicy part... but still,

Yes, even I'd tried before and I couldn't find a complete pdf. version of it. Nice passage.

Quote :

I'll have to research the place of beauty in Germanic cultures too because we have a mishmash of cultures now and a mishmash of temperaments.

That'll be interesting, share it when you're done. Only Spengler and Rosenberg come to mind immediately.

Perpetual wrote:

Quote :
Quote :
   Sauwelios doesn't idolize Nietzsche.


You don't know his history.

I know enough.  I know Satyr won't elaborate on why he thinks Sauwrlios idolizes Nietzsche, but maybe you can?  You seem to know Nietzsche very well.  Do you share Saytr's opinion.  To call Sauwelios an idolizer without qualifying the label with a more accurate interpretation of Nietzsche, seems dishonest.

Given the fact that you just stated below that you think N. was Apolitical tells me you are on another current with Sauwelios, that I do not share. For me, N. is deadly political when he redefines Phil. as Maximal Politics, art of legislating, etc.

Reg. Sauwelios, its just three weeks ago, he claimed on ILP he is the best disciple and interpreter of N. so far - In his own words. This is a fashioning after N. who called himself the real disciple of the 'god' Dionysos. Sauwelios in mirroring with N., makes a god of N. This kind of congruity is an error.
Not only that, blatant is his agenda of Straussianizing Nietzsche, given, Strauss was an outspoken proponent of the validity of Revelations, and importing this straussianism [primordial god as will to power] As N.'s early metaphysics which is ridiculous if you read even Sloterdijk's Thinker on Stage' written from the perspective of a critique of N.
Elsewhere on this forum, I have already clarified N.'s usage of "the Primordial One" in Birth of Tragedy; I'll link it here when I can recall where I posted it here.

In any case, here's his version. Assess yourself.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][/quote]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*


Last edited by Lyssa on Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:57 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:52 pm

Lyssa wrote:


perpetual wrote:
How woman act as a metaphor for Nietzsche is really interesting.

One such functional metaphor to Nietzsche is Distance;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An interesting parallel between N. and Weininger;

Quote :
"Women and their Effect in the Distance. Have I still ears? Am I only ear, and nothing else besides? Here I stand in the midst of the surging of the breakers, whose white flames fork up to my feet; from all sides there is howling, threatening, crying, and screaming at me, while in the lowest depths the old earth-shaker sings his aria hollow like a roaring bull; he beats such an earth-shaker’s measure thereto, that even the hearts of these weathered rock-monsters tremble at the sound. Then, suddenly, as if born out of nothingness, there appears before the portal of this hellish labyrinth, only a few fathoms distant, a great sailing-ship gliding silently along like a ghost. Oh, this ghostly beauty! With what enchantment it seizes me! What? Has all the repose and silence in the world embarked here? Does my happiness itself sit in this quiet place, my happier ego, my second immortalised self? Still not dead, but also no longer living? As a ghost-like, calm, gazing, gliding, sweeping, neutral being? Similar to the ship, which, with its white sails, like an immense butterfly, passes over the dark sea! Yes! Passing over existence! That is it! That would be it! —— It seems that the noise here has made me a visionary? All great noise causes one to place happiness in the calm and the distance. When a man is in the midst of his hubbub, in the midst of the breakers of his plots and plans, he there sees perhaps calm, enchanting beings glide past him, for whose happiness and retirement he longs they are women. He almost thinks that there with the women dwells his better self; that in these calm places even the loudest breakers become still as death, and life itself a dream of life. But still! but still! my noble enthusiast, there is also in the most beautiful sailing-ship so much noise and bustling, and alas, so much petty, piti able bustling! The enchantment and the most powerful effect of women is, to use the language of philosophers, an effect at a distance, an actio in distans; there belongs thereto, however, primarily and above all, distance!" [N., JW, 60]

Quote :
"On the other hand, the high esteem in which virginity is held originally came from men, and still does so where there are any men left: it is Man’s projection of his own immanent ideal of immaculate purity on the object of his love.
Man demands chastity both from himself and from others, and he demands it most from the being that he loves.

Beauty itself is a projection, or emanation, of the desire to love. Therefore, the beauty of Woman is not something different from love, not an object to which love is directed. The beauty of Woman is the love of Man. Love and beauty are not two different facts, but one and the same. Just as ugliness derives from hate, beauty derives from love. The fact that beauty has as little to do with the sexual drive as love, and that both love and beauty are alien to desire, expresses the same thing. Beauty is something untouchable, inviolable, which cannot be mixed with other things. It can only be seen as if it were near from a long distance, and it retreats before any approach. The sensual drive, which seeks union with Woman, destroys her beauty. A woman who has been handled and possessed is no longer worshipped by anybody for her beauty." [Weininger, Sex and Character]


You could say Distance provides that sense of Being, of a Culture - which woman represents,,, while a closer approach exposes the Turmoil of Becoming, the ugliness, the transition, the impurity, the volatility of Nature...
At a distance, Woman is the Apollonian illusion, perfection of a steadfast grade of a culture; she IS the veil hiding the dionysian transitions of man's be-coming. Woman:Culture = Man:Art/Artist




"Masks. There are women who have no inner life wherever one looks for it, being nothing but masks. That man is to be pitied who lets himself in with such ghostly, necessarily unsatisfying creatures; but just these women are able to stimulate man’s desire most intensely: he searches for their souls – and searches on and on." [JW, 405]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:32 pm

Quote :
The Gaze of Orpheus (Maurice Blanchot)

The split in the Orpheic world is predetermined: there is light and there is darkness; life (above) and death (below). "The power that causes the night to open", the force that enables Orpheus to cross the boundaries of light and life, and to descend to Eurydice, according to Blanchot, is that of art. And yet, he continues,

   Orpheus has gone down to Eurydice: for him Eurydice is the limit of what art can attain; concealed behind a name and covered by a veil, she is the profoundly dark point towards which art, desire, death, and the night all seem to lead. She is the instant in which the essence of the night approaches as the Other night. (p.99)

Rendering this dark point, the lure, the point in which the artist's control is undermined, is also the object of the work of art:

   Orpheus' work does not consist of securing the approach of this "point" by descending into the depth. His work is to bring it back into the daylight and in the daylight give it form, figure and reality. Orpheus can do anything except look this "point" in the face, look at the center of the night in the night. (p.99)

The superimposed triangles depicted by Lacan in his article on the gaze figure the path undertaken by Orpheus, as well as the evasion, at each end, of the object of (artistic) desire:



Rather than obtained, the object of desire is always displaced. Drawn from darkness to light, its absence or invisibility is re-articulated as a gap, a notion of loss, a signifier, within the frame of language, within a poem of lament.

Whether looking back into the darkness or blindly entering light, Orpheus never sees his Eurydice outside her daily mask or beyond appearance, never, that is, sees her in accordance with his impulse which

   [...] does not demand Eurydice in her diurnal truth and her everyday charm, but in her nocturnal darkness, in her distance, her body closed, her face sealed, which wants to see her not when she is visible, but when she is invisible, and not as the intimacy of a familiar life, but as the strangeness of that which excludes all intimacy; it does not want to make her live, but to have the fullness of her death living in her (p.100)

Ordinary, social life merely fragments and stifles the desire to assimilate with, or possess the other's otherness as such; it attempts to decode that which is sought after as incomprehensible, to grasp or control that which is desired as undefined. The turning away from light and from language is desire's "only way [to] approach [its object]: this is the meaning if concealment revealed in the night" (Ibid., 99).

Both directions, down into the darkness and back into the light, are determined by desire. Yet, concealment is exposed at each end. It is depth that the subject desires, a perception of itself through the gaze's depth of field. But "Depth [ the three dimensional world which as such embodies Orpheus' descent] does not surrender itself [to a] face to face" (surface) encounter. It does not yield to the eye's perception in the dark, or to the mind's construction in the light. On the one end, the eye, entering the realm of the gaze, becomes an object, thus losing itself to itself as subject/ as eye. On the other, it is reduced to a geometrical point: a subject, a Cartesian consciousness trapped within its own bounds.

Between these two modes, between perception and consciousness, says Lacan, the encounter with the real is forever missed: Eurydice slips back into the night.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
Blanchot characterizes inspiration’s costs as merely superficial, covering over a priceless depth:

"All we can sense of inspiration is its failure, all we can recognize of it is its misguided violence.  But if inspirations means that Orpheus fails and Eurydice is lost twice over… it also turns Orpheus towards that failure and that insignificance and coerces him, by an irresistible impulse, as though giving up failure were much more serious than giving up success, as though what we call the insignificant, the inessential, the mistaken, could reveal itself… as the source of all authenticity." (102)

Despite its syntactical convolutions, what is astonishing here is the conceptual ease with which this passage moves from the “misguided violence” of the gaze to its potential status as “the source of all authenticity,” an ease made possible, I would argue only by its elision of the body which underpins its celebration of failure and loss.  Blanchot represents Eurydice’s annihilation as a loss sustained only by Orpheus, and only measurable in terms of his artistic project.  We can’t see her loss from any point of view but Orpheus’s (not to say Blanchot’s) because Eurydice’s point of view has been foreclosed even before she disappears.  Blanchot’s violent blotting out of Eurydice’s perspective curiously mirrors the violence of Orpheus’s gaze, which requires her destruction in order to discover a higher order of “authenticity.”

The route Blanchot traces leading to this higher order follows a kind of boomerang effect, in which Orpheus’s flight away from the work leads inexorably back to its place of origins: “Orpheus’ gaze is Orpheus’ ultimate gift to the work, a gift in which he rejects the work, in which he sacrifices it by moving towards its origin in the boundless impulse of desire, and in which he unknowingly still moves towards the work” (102-3).  Orpheus is borne along by the “boundless impulse of desire” – the desire to see and know, to possess Eurydice more than to restore her light.  The linkage between vision and phallic power, the “substitutive relation between the eye and the male member” that Freud posited, is recapitulated in Blanchot where the gaze, like the phallus, defines the point of origin of symbolic activity, that threshold between worlds – imaginary and symbolic, lower and upper – where Eurydice functions as a placeholder until those realms are tentatively divided.  Orpheus both discovers and institutes the terms of division through his gaze; relationally, through his split from Eurydice and his “magical dependency” on her, and topographically, as they respectively take up their assigned places in the pre-Oedipal/symbolic hierarchy.  At the same time, his gaze recovers the work’s “origins” in the depths, and wrestles them back up to the light.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
Inspiration is bound to desire by Orpheus’ gaze.  Desire is bound to unconcern by impatience.   A person who is not impatient will never reach the point of being unconcerned – that moment when concern merges with its own transparency;  but a person who does not get beyond impatience will never be capable of Orpheus’ unconcerned, thoughtless gaze.  This is why impatience must be the heart of deep patience, the pure bolt of lightning which leaps out of the breast of patience because of its infinite waiting, its silence, and its reserve, not only as a spark lit by extreme tension, but also like the glittering point which has eluded that waiting: the happy chance of unconcern.

-Blanchot - The Gaze of Orpheus & The Essential Solitude

pdf here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Quote :
This, of course, throws another light on the eternal question of why Orpheus looked back and thus screwed things up. What we encounter here is simply the link between the death-drive and creative sublimation: Orpheus' backward gaze is a perverse act stricto sensu, he loses Euridice intentionally in order to regain her as the object of sublime poetic inspiration (this idea was developed by Klaus Theweleit1). But should one not go here even a step further? What if Euridice herself, aware of the impasse of her beloved Orpheus, intentionally provoked his turning around? What if her reasoning was something like: "I know he loves me; but he is potentially a great poet, this is his fate, and he cannot fulfill that promise by being happily married to me - so the only ethical thing for me to do is to sacrifice myself, to provoke him into turning around and losing me, so that he will be able to become the great poet he deserves to be - and then she starts gently coughing or something similar to attract his attention... Examples are here innumerable: like Euridice who, by sacrificing herself, i.e. by intentionally provoking Orpheus into turning his gaze towards her and thus sending her back to Hades, delivers his creativity and sets him free to pursue his poetic mission, Elsa in Wagner's Lohengrin also intentionally asks the fateful question and thereby delivers Lohengrin whose true desire, of course, is to remain the lone artist sublimating his suffering into his creativity. Wagner's Bruenhilde, this "suffering, self-sacrificing woman," is here the ultimate example: she wills her annihilation, but not as a desperate means to compensate for her guilt - she wills it as an act of love destined to redeem the beloved man, or, as Wagner himself put it in a famous letter to Franz Liszt: "The love of a tender woman has made me happy; she dared to throw herself into a sea of suffering and agony so that she should be able to say to me 'I love you!' No one who does not know all her tenderness can judge how much she had to suffer. We were spared nothing - but as a consequence I am redeemed and she is blessedly happy because she is aware of it." Once again, we should descend here from the mythic heights into the everyday bourgeois reality: woman is aware of the fact that, by means of her suffering which remains invisible to the public eye, of her renunciation for the beloved man and/or her renunciation to him (the two are always dialectically interconnected, since, in the fantasmatic logic of the Western ideology of love, it is for the sake of her man that the woman must renounce him), she rendered possible man's redemption, his public social triumph - like Traviata who abandons her lover and thus enables his reintegration into the social order.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lyssa wrote:
Amphion in his reply (frr. 190, 192, 198, 200) praises music and song, decries a philistine absorption in the management of an estate, and declares that brain does more to save a city than brawn. The opposition between toil, combined with athletic and military training, and artistic or intellectuc.l pursuits is a thread that runs through the history of Greek literature; obviously it is always open to people like Zethos to reproach their adversaries for effeminacy, since music and singing do little to develop the muscles of the legs, and their indulgence does not help to accumulate wealth. Phaidros in Pl. Smp. 179d is scornful of Orpheus, who according to the legend was not willing to die himself in order to be with his dead wife in the underworld; he was 'faint-hearted, as you'd expect of a kitharoidos'. Misgolas 's predilection for musicians may imply a distaste on his part for young athletes and warriors of the kind portrayed in earlier vase- painting." [ib.]

Does it mean more that he doesn't kill himself?

A look at Orpheus's dismembering:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:25 am

The incorrigible desire to reconnect with the source of creation/destruction (woman).  Art losing significance and regaining significance in the endless search for woman.  Art as maybe just a byproduct of the eternal attempts to close distance.  Metaphors will always be unfulfilling and the sublimated woman will always be a shadow of the real thing( but that too is a shadow)... yet too close contact with the real thing can become dull and unfulfilling.  So knowing how to keep the right distance.  Giving back from the source so only as to reconnect and give back some more.   Woman as a place of heat gained and lost.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
perpetualburn

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 941
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : MA

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:30 am

Orpheus in pop music:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:11 pm

@Perpetual, I haven't managed to read all your links yet, but speaking of Woman as Be-ing, and Eurydice, more properly, Eury-Dike - "great Justice", Heidegger uses the Anaximander idea of flux or "becoming as a penalty paid" with Orpheus' dis-memberment in the "face" of eury"Dike"; interesting paper:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:14 pm

Orpheus

"When Orpheus turned
and looked back and knew
that genius wasn’t enough,
I wonder which he regretted most:
the failure of will,
Eurydice lost,
or what it must mean for her
to remain
a fraction of darkness?

Did he still tame animals
with his songs,
or would that seem a child’s game now?
Did he tune his lyre
to a minor key,
the last notes falling
like darkened leaves
to drift toward Lesbos?

In Balanchine’s ballet
the failure seems Eurydice’s fault
who tempted his blindfold off,
as if the artist must be absolved,
as if what matters
is the body itself –
that instrument stringed
with tendon and bone
making its own music."
[Linda Pastan, A Fraction of Darkness]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:16 pm

Eurydice by H.D. [a feminist rage version].



I

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you have swept me back, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] with the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
above the earth, 
I who have [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] among the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
at last;


so for [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and your [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
I am [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
where [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] drip 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] cinders upon moss of ash;


so for your arrogance 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] at last, 
I who had [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
who was [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.];


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]you had let me wait 
I had grown from[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
if you had [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] with the dead, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you 
and the past.




II


Here only flame upon flame 
and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] among the red sparks, 
streaks of black and light 
grown [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did you turn back, 
that hell should be reinhabited 
of myself thus 
swept into [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


why did you turn back? 
why did you glance back? 
why did you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for that moment? 
why did you bend your[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
caught with the flame of the upper earth, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]?


what was it that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
with the light from yours 
and your glance? 
what was it you saw in my face? 
the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of your own face, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of your own[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]?


what had my face to offer 
but[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of the earth, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] colour 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] from the raw fissure in the rock 
where the light struck, 
and the colour of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and the bright surface of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and as[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]




III

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Saffron from the fringe of the earth, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]wild saffron that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]has bent 
over the sharp edge of earth, 
all the flowers that cut through the earth, 
all, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]all the flowers are lost;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is lost, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
black upon black 
and worse than black, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]




IV


Fringe upon fringe 
of blue crocuses, 
crocuses, walled against blue of themselves, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
blue of the depth upon depth of flowers, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
flowers, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of them, 
more than earth, 
even than of the upper earth, 
had passed with me 
beneath the earth;


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of the flowers of the earth, 
if once I could have breathed into myself 
the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
the whole of the golden mass, 
the whole of the great fragrance, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]




V

So for your arrogance 
and your ruthlessness 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]I have lost the earth 
and the flowers of the earth, 
and the live souls above the earth, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]and you who passed across the light 
and reached 
ruthless;

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
who [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
who need no presence;


yet [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
and your glance, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
such terror, such coils and strands and pitfalls 
of blackness 
such terror 
is no loss;


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
above the earth, 
hell is no worse, 
no, nor your flowers 
nor your veins of light 
nor your presence, 
a loss; 
my hell is no worse than yours 
though you pass among the flowers and speak 
with the spirits above the earth.




VI

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Against the black 
I have more fervour 
than you in all the splendour of that place, 
against the blackness 
and the stark grey 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]I have more light;

and the flowers, 
if I should tell you, 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 
toward hell, 
turn again and glance back 
and I would sink into a place even more terrible than this.






VII

At least [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]I have the flowers of myself, 
and my thoughts, no god 
can take that; 
I have [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]the fervour of myself for a presence 
and my own [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]spirit for light;

and[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] with its loss 
knows this; 
though [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] against the black, 
small against the formless rocks, 
hell must break before I am lost;


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
hell must open like a red rose 
for the dead to pass.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:27 pm

Perpetual wrote:

Lyssa wrote:

Amphion in his reply (frr. 190, 192, 198, 200) praises music and song, decries a philistine absorption in the management of an estate, and declares that brain does more to save a city than brawn. The opposition between toil, combined with athletic and military training, and artistic or intellectuc.l pursuits is a thread that runs through the history of Greek literature; obviously it is always open to people like Zethos to reproach their adversaries for effeminacy, since music and singing do little to develop the muscles of the legs, and their indulgence does not help to accumulate wealth. Phaidros in Pl. Smp. 179d is scornful of Orpheus, who according to the legend was not willing to die himself in order to be with his dead wife in the underworld; he was 'faint-hearted, as you'd expect of a kitharoidos'. Misgolas 's predilection for musicians may imply a distaste on his part for young athletes and warriors of the kind portrayed in earlier vase-painting." [ib.]

Does it mean more that he doesn't kill himself?



If we define what is Masculine as that which stands apart, distinguishes itself, etc., from the bolded parts, its plain why the perception of Orpheus among the Greco-Romans is not the typical masculine ideal from the point of view of raising a culture. The "Great Refusal" towards total integration is a feminine tendency.

There's a paper called [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] which I haven't read, but the title of it made me think, to me gay science / joyful wisdom was N. using Orpheus' trope to present a reverse image.
Orpheus in myth is one who suspects Hades of tricking him, and turns back to check.
Its a mistrust in oneself, of the plutonic sub-conscious.
Nietzsche plays on this in JW, 377, which I think is the heart of JW - calling out "we homeless ones", like the Orphic Wanderer singing songs and new tunes for a new order of reality, yet saying,

Quote :
"The ice which still carries has become very thin: the thawing wind blows; we ourselves, the homeless ones, are an agency that breaks the ice, and the other too thin "realities".  We "preserve" nothing, nor would we return to any past age; we are not at all "liberal" we do not labour for "progress" we do not need first to stop our ears to the song of the market-place and the sirens of the future their song of "equal rights", "free society" "no longer either lords or slaves" does not allure us!  We do not by any means think it desirable that the kingdom of righteousness and peace should be established on earth (because under any circumstances it would be the kingdom of the profoundest mediocrity and Chinaism); we rejoice in all men, who like ourselves love danger, war and adventure, who do not make compromises, nor let themselves be captured, conciliated and stunted; we count ourselves among the conquerors; we ponder over the need of a new order of things, even of a new slavery for every strengthening and elevation of the type "man" also involves a new form of slavery."

The new Orpheus knows no 'turning back' to all that's been "lost"; there's an icy Distrust only of all those things that promise of a new happiness...

Orphic redemption of all dualities, of all animosities through his songs,, is here re-instated, slavery is affirmed.

Nietzsche will Not look back to cling to the past... he "knows", willing the future he envisions will definitely have his euryDike, the past eternally-recur in contrast to the orphic reincarnation mysteries.


Marcuse wrote:
"When Freud emphasized the fundamental fact that phantasy (imagination) retains a truth that is incompatible with reason, he was following in a long historical tradition. Phantasy is cognitive in so far as it preserves the truth of the Great Refusal, or, positively , in so far as it protects, against all reason, the aspirations for the integral fulfillment of man and nature which are repressed by reason. In the realm of phantasy, the unreasonable images of freedom become rational, and the "lower depth" of instinctual gratification assumes a new dignity. The culture of the performance principle makes its bow before the strange truths which imagination keeps alive in folklore and fairy tale, in literature and art; they have been aptly interpreted and have found their place in the popular and academic world. However, the effort to derive from these truths the content of a valid reality principle surpassing the prevailing one has been entirely inconsequential. Novalis' statement that "all internal faculties and forces , and all external faculties and forces , must be deduced from productive imagination" has remained a curiosity -- as has the surrealist program de pratiquer la poésie. The insistence that imagination provide standards for existential attitudes, for practice, and for historical possibilities appears as childish fantasy.


More specifically, we look for the "culture-heroes" who have persisted in imagination as symbolizing the attitude and the deeds that have determined the fate of mankind. And here at the outset we are confronted with the fact that the predominant culture-hero is the trickster and (suffering) rebel against the gods, who creates culture at the price of perpetual pain. He symbolizes productiveness, the unceasing effort to master life; but, in his productivity, blessing and curse, progress and toil are inextricably intertwined. Prometheus is the archetype-hero of the performance principle. And in the world of Prometheus , Pandora , the female principle, sexuality and pleasure, appear as curse--disruptive, destructive. "Why are women such a curse? The denunciation of the sex with which the section [on Prometheus in Hesiod] concludes emphasizes above all else their economic unproductivity; they are useless drones; a luxury item in a poor man' s budget."  The beauty of the woman, and the happiness she promises are fatal in the work-world of civilization.

If Prometheus is the culture-hero of toil, productivity, and progress through repression , then the symbols of another reality principle must be sought at the opposite pole. Orpheus and Narcissus (like Dionysus to whom they are akin : the antagonist of the god who sanctions the logic of domination, the realm of reason) stand for a very different reality. They have not become the culture-heroes of the Western world: theirs is the image of joy and fulfillment; the voice which does not command but sings; the gesture which offers and receives; the deed which is peace and ends the labor of conquest; the liberation from time which unites man with god, man with nature. Literature has preserved their image. In the Sonnets to Orpheus...

Or Narcissus, who, in the mirror of the water, tries to grasp his own beauty . Bent over the river of time, in which all forms pass and flee, he dreams:


The climate of this language is that of the revolt against culture based on toil, domination, and renunciation . The images of Orpheus and Narcissus reconcile Eros and Thanatos. They recall the experience of a world that is not to be mastered and controlled but to be liberated -- a freedom that will release the powers of Eros now bound in the repressed and petrified forms of man and nature. These powers are conceived not as destruction but as peace, not as terror but as beauty. It is sufficient to enumerate the assembled images in order to circumscribe the dimension to which they are committed: the redemption of pleasure, the halt of time, the absorption of death; silence, sleep, night, paradise - - the Nirvana principle not as death but as life. Baudelaire gives the image of such a world in two lines:

"Là, tout n' est qu 'ordre et beauté, Luxe, calme, et volupté."

This is perhaps the only context in which the word order loses its repressive connotation: here, it is the order of gratification which the free Eros creates. Static triumphs over dynamic; but it is a static that moves in its own fullness -- a productivity that is sensuousness, play, and song. Any attempt to elaborate the images thus conveyed must be self-defeating, because outside the language of art they change their meaning and merge with the connotations they received under the repressive reality principle. But one must try to trace the road back to the realities to which they refer.

In contrast to the images of the Promethean culture-heroes, those of the Orphic and Narcissistic world are essentially unreal and unrealistic. They designate an "impossible" attitude and existence. The deeds of the culture heroes also are "impossible," in that they are miraculous, incredible, superhuman. However, their objective and their "meaning" are not alien to the reality; on the contrary, they are useful. They promote and strengthen this reality; they do not explode it. But the Orphic-Narcissistic images do explode it; they do not convey a "mode of living"; they are committed to the underworld and to death. At best, they are poetic, something for the soul and the heart. But they do not teach any "message" -- except perhaps the negative one that one cannot defeat death or forget and reject the call of life in the admiration of beauty .

Such moral messages are superimposed upon a very different content. Orpheus and Narcissus symbolize realities just as do Prometheus and Hermes. Trees and animals respond to Orpheus' language; the spring and the forest respond to Narcissus' desire. The Orphic and Narcissistic Eros awakens and liberates potentialities that are real in things animate and inanimate, in organic and inorganic nature--real but in the un-eroticreality suppressed. These potentialities circumscribe the telos inherent in them as: "just to be what they are," "being-there," existing.

The Orphic and Narcissistic experience of the world negates that which sustains the world of the performance principle. The opposition between man and nature, subject and object, is overcome. Being is experienced as gratification, which unites man and nature so that the fulfillment of man is at the same time the fulfillment, without violence, of nature. In being spoken to, loved, and cared for, flowers and springs and animals appear as what they are -- beautiful, not only for those who address and regard them, but for themselves, "objectively." "Le monde tend à la beauté."
In the Orphic and Narcissistic Eros, this tendency is released: the things of nature become free to be what they are. But to be what they are they depend on the erotic attitude: they receive their telos only in it. The song of Orpheus pacifies the animal world, reconciles the lion with the lamb and the lion with man . The world of nature is a world of oppression, cruelty, and pain, as is the human world; like the latter, it awaits its liberation. This liberation is the work of Eros. The song of Orpheus breaks the petrification, moves the forests and the rocks -- but moves them to partake in joy.

The love of Narcissus is answered by the echo of nature. To be sure, Narcissus appears as the antagonist of Eros: he spurns love, the love that unites with other human beings, and for that he is punished by Eros. As the antagonist of Eros, Narcissus symbolizes sleep and death, silence and rest. In Thracia, he stands in close relation to Dionysus. But it is not coldness, asceticism, and self-love that color the images of Narcissus; it is not these gestures of Narcissus that are preserved in art and literature. His silence is not that of dead rigidity; and when he is contemptuous of the love of hunters and nymphs he rejects one Eros for another. He lives by an Eros of his own, and he does not love only himself. (He does not know that the image he admires is his own.) If his erotic attitude is akin to death and brings death, then rest and sleep and death are not painfully separated and distinguished: the Nirvana principle rules throughout all these stages. And when he dies he continues to live as the flower that bears his name.

In associating Narcissus with Orpheus and interpreting both as symbols of a non-repressive erotic attitude toward reality, we took the image of Narcissus from the mythological-artistic tradition rather than from Freud's libido theory. We may now be able to find some support for our interpretation in Freud' s concept of primary narcissism. It is significant that the introduction of narcissism into psychoanalysis marked a turning point in the development of the instinct theory: the assumption of independent ego instincts (self-preservation instincts) was shaken and replaced by the notion of an undifierentiated , unified libido prior to the division into ego and external objects.  Indeed, the discovery of primary narcissism meant more than the addition of just another phase to the development of the libido ; with it there came in sight the archetype of another existential relation to reality.

Primary narcissism is more than autoeroticism; it engulfs the "environment ," integrating the narcissistic ego with the objective world. The normal antagonistic relation between ego and external reality is only a later form and stage of the relation between ego and reality:

Originally the ego includes everything, later it detaches from itself the external world. The ego-feeling we are aware of now is thus only a shrunken vestige of a far more extensive feeling -- a feeling which embraced the universe and expressed an inseparable connection of the ego with the external world.

The concept of primary narcissism implies what is made explicit in the opening chapter of Civilization and Its Discontents - - that narcissism survives not only as a neurotic symptom but also as a constitutive element in the construction of the reality, coexisting with the mature reality ego. Freud describes the "ideational content" of the surviving primary ego-feeling as "limitless extension and
oneness with the universe" (oceanic feeling). And, later in the same chapter , he suggests that the oceanic feeling seeks to reinstate "limitless narcissism." The striking paradox that narcissism , usually understood as egotistic withdrawal from reality, here is connected with oneness with the universe, reveals the new depth of the conception: beyond all immature autoeroticism , narcissism denotes a fundamental relatedness to reality which may generate a comprehensive existential order.
[/colour]

In other words, narcissism may contain the germ of a different reality principle: the libidinal cathexis of the ego (one's own body) may become the source and reservoir for a new libidinal cathexis of the objective world -- transforming this world into a new mode of being . This interpretation is corroborated by the decisive role which narcissistic libido plays , according to Freud, in sublimation . In The Ego and the Id, he asks "whether all sublimation does not take place through the agency of the ego , which begins by changing sexual object-libido into narcissistic libido and then, perhaps, goes on to give it another aim."  If this is the case, then all sublimation would begin with the reactivation of narcissistic libido, which somehow overflows and extends to objects. The hypothesis all but revolutionizes the idea of sublimation: it hints at a non-repressive mode of sublimation which results from an extension rather than from a constraining deflection of the libido.

The Orphic-Narcissistic images are those of the Great Refusal: refusal to accept separation from the libidinous object (or subject). The refusal aims at liberation -- at the reunion of what has become separated.


Orpheus is the archetype of the poet as liberator and creator: he establishes a higher order in the world -- an order without repression. In his person, art, freedom , and culture are eternally combined. He is the poet of redemption, the god who brings peace and salvation by pacifying man and nature, not through force but through song:

Orpheus, the priest, the mouthpiece of the gods,
Deterred wild men from murders and foul foods,
And hence was said to tame the raging moods
Of tigers and of lions...

In times of yore it was the poet's part --
The part of sapience -- to distinguish plain
Between the public and the private things,
Between the sacred things and things profane,
To check the ills that sexual straying brings,
To show how laws for married people stood,
To build the towns, to carve the laws in wood.

But the "culture-hero" Orpheus is also credited with the establishment of a very different order -- and he pays for it with his life:

... Orpheus had shunned all love of womankind, whether because of his ill success in love, or whether he had given his troth once for all. Still, many women felt a passion for the bard;

He was torn to pieces by the crazed Thracian women.

The classical tradition associates Orpheus with the introduction of homosexuality. Like Narcissus, he rejects the normal Eros, not for an ascetic ideal, but for a fuller Eros. Like Narcissus, he protests against the repressive order of procreative sexuality. The Orphic and Narcissistic Eros is to the end the negation of this order -- the Great Refusal. In the world symbolized by the culture-hero Prometheus , it is the negation of all order; but in this negation Orpheus and Narcissus reveal a new reality, with an order of its own, governed by different principles. The Orphic Eros transforms being: he masters cruelty and death through liberation. His language is song, and his work is play. Narcissus' life is that of beauty, and his existence is contemplation. These images refer to the aesthetic dimension as the one in which their reality principle must be sought and validated." [Eros and Civilization]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:01 pm

perpetualburn wrote:

Quote :
Inspiration is bound to desire by Orpheus’ gaze.  Desire is bound to unconcern by impatience.   A person who is not impatient will never reach the point of being unconcerned – that moment when concern merges with its own transparency;  but a person who does not get beyond impatience will never be capable of Orpheus’ unconcerned, thoughtless gaze.  This is why impatience must be the heart of deep patience, the pure bolt of lightning which leaps out of the breast of patience because of its infinite waiting, its silence, and its reserve, not only as a spark lit by extreme tension, but also like the glittering point which has eluded that waiting: the happy chance of unconcern.

-Blanchot - The Gaze of Orpheus & The Essential Solitude

pdf here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Nice quote; and exactly what I tried to say in the Han thread, except I approach it in the opp. direction and so don't call it "impatience", I call it "being ruthless".


Nietzsche wrote:
""It is still a long way from this morbid isolation, from the desert of these experimental years, to that enormous, overflowing certainty and health which cannot do without even illness itself, as an instrument and fishhook of knowledge; to that maturefreedom of the spirit which is fully as much self‑mastery and discipline of the heart, and which permits paths to many opposing ways of thought. It is a long way to the inner spaciousness and cosseting of a superabundance which precludes the danger that the spirit might lose itself on its own paths and fall in love and stay put, intoxicated, in some nook; a long way to that. excess of vivid healing, reproducing, reviving powers, the very sign of great health, an excess that gives the free spirit the dangerous privilege of being permitted to liveexperimentally and to offer himself to adventure: the privilege of the master free spirit! In between may lie long years of convalescence, years full of multicolored, painful magical transformations, governed and led by a tough will to healthwhich already often dares to dress and disguise11 itself as health. There is a middle point on the way, which a man having such a fate cannot remember later without being moved: a pale, fine light and sunny happiness are characteristic of it, a feeling of a birdlike freedom, birdlike perspective, birdlike arrogance, some third thing in which curiosity and a tender contempt are united. A "free spirit"--this cool term is soothing in that state, almost warming. No longer chained down by hatred and love, one lives without Yes, without No, voluntarily near, voluntarily far, most preferably slipping away, avoiding, fluttering on, gone again, flying upward again; one is spoiled, like anyone who has ever seen an enormous multiplicity beneath him--and one becomes the antithesis of those who trouble themselves about things that do not concern them. Indeed, now the free spirit concerns himself only with things (and how many there are!) which no longer trouble him." [HATH, Preface, 4]


I think you can only afford to possess this kind of "patient impatience" or ruthless "concern" with things that "no longer concern you", if you already have a premonition of what you desire; and that's how it makes sense, when N. writes,

"Since I grew tired of the chase
And Search, I learned to Find;
And since the wind blows in my face,
I sail with every wind." [JW, Rhymes, 2]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*


Last edited by Lyssa on Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:02 pm

Perpetual wrote:
Rather than obtained, the object of desire is always displaced. Drawn from darkness to light, its absence or invisibility is re-articulated as a gap, a notion of loss, a signifier, within the frame of language, within a poem of lament.

Whether looking back into the darkness or blindly entering light, Orpheus never sees his Eurydice outside her daily mask or beyond appearance, never, that is, sees her in accordance with his impulse which

  [...] does not demand Eurydice in her diurnal truth and her everyday charm, but in her nocturnal darkness, in her distance, her body closed, her face sealed, which wants to see her not when she is visible, but when she is invisible, and not as the intimacy of a familiar life, but as the strangeness of that which excludes all intimacy; it does not want to make her live, but to have the fullness of her death living in her (p.100)

Ordinary, social life merely fragments and stifles the desire to assimilate with, or possess the other's otherness as such; it attempts to decode that which is sought after as incomprehensible, to grasp or control that which is desired as undefined. The turning away from light and from language is desire's "only way [to] approach [its object]: this is the meaning if concealment revealed in the night" (Ibid., 99).
Between these two modes, between perception and consciousness, says Lacan, the encounter with the real is forever missed: Eurydice slips back into the night.

Correct, except Heid. came to the opposite conclusion in 'Elucidations of Holderlin's poetry';

Heidegger wrote:
"The dark light does not deny clarity, rather, it is the excess of brightness which, the greater it is, denies sight all the more decisively. The all-too-flaming fire does not just blind the eyes; rather, its excessive brightness also engulfs everything that shows itself and is darker than darkness itself.
...The dark light of the wine does not take away awareness; rather, it lets one's meditation pass beyond that mere illusion of clarity which is possessed by everything calculable and shallow, climbing higher and higher toward the loftiness and nearness of the highest one.
...The intoxication is that sublime elevation of mood wherein that single voice that can be heard that sets a tone, and where those are attuned to it may be led most resolutely beyond themselves."

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Beauty, Art and Appearance

Back to top Go down
 
Beauty, Art and Appearance
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 3Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next
 Similar topics
-
» TRUTH OF LIFE: Love & beauty
» The beauty of our world
» Look at this beauty...Sobhan Allah
» The Low Carb Dietitian's Guide to Health and Beauty by Registered Dietitian and Certified Diabetes Educator Franziska Spritzler
» the beauty.................

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Know Thyself :: AGORA :: TECHNE-
Jump to: