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 Paganism and natural order.

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apaosha
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:03 pm

Interesting viewpoint.


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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:25 am

Old news ^
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:31 pm

Slaughtz wrote:
That post was beautiful, Lyssa.

Lyssa wrote:
This path is not easy. It requires sacrifice of friends, teachers, fathers and brothers and lovers,,, as Nietzsche realized in his parting with Wagner.

To feel loss when one cuts any sort of tie with another, is a sign of appreciation. Even a noble person feels a sense of sorrowful loss when they have conquered a difficult opponent and they are no longer there to help define them.


Maybe a song that covers both the mafia and sofia povs.

In the context of Raidho.





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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:27 pm

For MM.

Ansuz is essentially the rune of Hope.

There is respect from fear, and there is a respect from an increasing discrimination.

There is the 'respect' of Xt. court-esy, where uncivility is equated to the abhorence of the animal body.

But there is also a kind of respect that places hope in the opportunity for those entangled within an interval - , making most of a moment that could potentially let one to stand distinguished for who they are.

It doesn't matter who is before you - could be a nobody, some trash, someone ordinary, but when one is mindful, that to be pitted against the lowly, the highly, nobody, whoever or whatever it is, it is one's own luck that gathered that much for who one is, one's fatum… to be present at that juncture, with those things, which could easily have been some other things and yet not,.. there's a respect from hope one places towards this meaningless interval that one has dragged along, or was dragged into, for mirroring the possibilities, and then one washes one's hands off it, expecting nothing. It could be an incline or decline or no change thereafter.

This kind of (self-)respect is being firm in oneself to encounter the maximum of the other - the 'dangerous fullness' of an occasion raising someone, even if they cannot rise up to the occasion...

This is self-respect to life itself that wants to grow, defend, challenge, etc.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:43 pm

[Keeping in mind, that 'Survive the Jive', so far the most serious I.E.-pagan youtube channel out there, have shifted to Perennialism.]


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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:44 pm

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:04 am



Multiple Gods always suggests a balance of power, and the power came from struggle. The Gods battled. They had distinctiveness and autonomy - but also enemies. Their plans could be thwarted or modified.

The Abrahamic God has no such leniency. His plan is absolute, and he steers everything into His grace. In fact, human will is steered by God in much the same way - and it becomes a contradiction for the Abrahamic religions that they must say the universe is deterministic ("God doesn't play dice") and humans simultaneously have a free will in which they choose a faith in Him. This contradiction makes necessary the disconnection of man and his agency from nature, and puts it into a nihilistic/noumenal realm. Monotheism requires solipsism, manifested as the swinging between two nihilistic poles.

With multiple and sometimes uncooperative or diverging Gods, none with an ultimate determinative will. A man or woman could bring about life and end life. A man could trick Gods and be blessed to become demi-Gods. In Greece, fate was represented by a group of old women, not one unified all-determining God:
The Fates wrote:
The Moirai or Fates were three sister deities, incarnations of destiny and life. Their names were Clotho, the one who spins the thread of life; Lachesis, she who draws the lots and determines how long one lives, by measuring the thread of life; and Atropos, the inevitable, she who chose how someone dies by cutting the thread of life with her shears. They were often described as being ugly and old women, stern and severe. Three days after a child was born, it was thought that the Moirai would visit the house to determine the child's fate and life.
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These fates are similar to the Norns in Odinism:
Norns wrote:
The Norns are the three Fates of Northern mythology, the Goddesses of time. They are named Urd (the past), Verdande (the present) and Skuld (the future). They watch over man; they spin his thread of fate at his birth and mark out with it the limits of his sphere of action through life; their decrees are inviolable destiny, their dispensations inevitable necessity. Urd  and  Verdande,  the  past  and  present,  may  be  seen  as stretching a web from the radiant dawn of life to the glowing sunset, while Skuld, the future tears it to pieces!
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Monotheism (and the subsequent death of that God) robs a human being of will, autonomy and agency OR (with acceptance of that God) it disconnects their identity from the natural world/past/etc. This is where two minds may come into play: one of the primal need/connection with nature (Jung's "Shadow") and one of identity (Jung's "Ego").
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:55 pm


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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:44 am

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:16 am

Interesting.


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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:56 am

Judaism is not original, only its methodology is.
It is rooted on the tribal customs and beliefs that triggered a slave revolt, of the spirit.

Slave tribes in Egypt and Babylon stole from their masters they lived parasitically from, ideas and customs, and twisted them into their own.
A segment of the Semites created the novel idea of turning on its head the entire hierarchy pyramid by simply believing in the inversion of their host tribe's beliefs by sampling nihilistic concepts from those dominant tribes.
We also notice this in current Negro "culture" with its shallow sampling, and repackaging, promoting overcompensating ideologies.
Their obsession with 'self' exposes a absence of self-knowledge, and its compensation with material goods, and sexual exploits, also points to an insecurity hedonism and materialism attempt to deal with.
Nihilism, in any form, is not interested in world, it is only interested in coping with world; interested only with politics and applying a dogma that can control the masses of heterogeneous genetic background.
Zoroastrianism, with its Nihilistic concepts of absolutes, with its binary polarity, was what inspired the Semites to shape and sample form it a method to apply to their own condition: as slaves and defeated tribes, living parasitically on those that had dominated them - from Egypt all the way to the Greeks.
Christianity was how some of them adjusted to the Hellenic threat - by selectively assimilating and twisting concepts the Greeks exposed them to.

Cycle, from the Greek κύκλος, is another word for pattern: repeating, consistent, or what we call order.
But including into this chaos, randomness, and not what moderns desperately wish to define as complexity, keeping order as its unifying source, is the pagan world-view.

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:04 pm

Natural

Mostly repeating what has already been said on it here.

“Natural means it’s healthy.”
“Natural means it’s morally good.”
Nature, the great protector of the innocent.
Wishy-washy thinking, wishy-washy deceit.

“Everything is natural.”
Say cynics who are the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


There is nature and then there are man-made environments.
What’s the difference?
A natural environment as an overwhelming whole does not have any kind of intentions, there is no divine gardner who arranges the environment and reacts and adapts to and controls the animals within that environment.
As an animal in a man-made environment, as an overwhelming whole, there is largely control, intentions, adapting to the animals.
In nature there is no grand scheme of intentions behind the scene.
Some find this terrifying, so much so that they imagine that there are intentions on a grand level, a divine gardner being present. It’s those who enjoy the lot of the domesticated animal.

Now, what if it was not a man-made, artificial, environment but it was a sophisticated alien-made artificial environment, and alien simply being a non-man-kind kind of intelligence.
That’s already different in some respects. If we identify the environment as artificial but not as of our own kind of making then we become an opposing party within that environment. The (self-)domesticated animals which rebel against the established order, now being identified as something alien.

Sure, one way is to identify natural as something in opposition to artificial and artificial being about an environment where as an overwhelming whole there is an intent present.
But then that will always arise with enough intelligence and willpower to focus ones intentions in a natural environment, over and over again. So I think it’s still natural if the man-made environment remains a place where the nature of the animal and the intentions which spring from it are not taken as something being in the way of the greater good. The point where the greater good becomes its detached own kind of shitty ideas for the sake of it being shitty ideas.

Like we promote equality because equality is good because equality is good because equality is good….


*Intermission*

'The best wine is the oldest, the best water the newest.'

The more inclusive proposition of natural, the one where man-made environments are still being called natural if they are, to be snappy, about “blood and soil” is then dependent on subjects. An environment deemed natural for one set of people would not be deemed natural for another kind of people.

This can be thought of as loop-holy but isn’t all the nihilism liar talk by for example the Dunning-Kruger-effect-cynic in the dungeon, just the liar’s way of promoting his kind of preferred ‘natural’ man-made environment? He does so by attacking all those who promote a natural standard which he doesn’t like and covers it up under the mantle of universal deconstructionism. Yet he only attacks those who promote standards for natural which he opposes.

Point would be that they do promote their kind of natural and to counter that you have to promote your kind of natural, or let’s say social-normality or what is normal.

Da thing is, why not think up a society of homosexuals who propagate in some technological way or form or by being parasitic on another kind of man and propagating mimetically and via inducing traumas of sexual-abuse in the young ones. - Which probably works to some extent, to tilt the odds for fringe cases. Or by promoting the gender-fluid child-confusion, snippy-snap hormone therapy shit.
I think that can’t be simply argued away, that drive of theirs to push for their kind of ‘natural’. They need to be recognised as alien, as other. They do it too, even though they do it with the techniques of the liar, trying to have their cake and eat it too.
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:37 pm

A-Trophy.

"a wasting away through lack of nourishment", from Greek atrophia "a wasting away," abstract noun from atrophos "ill-fed, un-nourished," from a- "not, without" + trophe "nourishment," from trephein "to fatten", "make thrive, nourish, rear; to make solid, congeal, thicken.""


A-trophy is not only the result of lack of nourishment, of 'good' fats (HDL), but in relevance, more so the result of too much of 'bad fats' (LDL).
Cholesterol. khole "bile" + steros "solid, stiff", sterility, barreness.
Khole from Chloe, related to PIE root *ghlei- "to shine, glitter, glow, be warm", gleam, glad.
Modern melan-kholia is this sterile barrenness that distinguishes it from the Tragic age.

Sterile bile, arrested cardiacs, weak hearts, on artificial pace-makers fluctuating between high and low pressures, blocked life arteries conveying too much or too little, leaving behind poor spirits incapable of daring goals, and the committed discipline for it.

Modern credit-mongering and "a"  "Trophy"  is the most prominent feature of this cultural Atrophy.

The Tragic age and the bile of Achilles was the kind that 'gleamed', Chloe; it 'gave of' fame and was never the hunger for rewarding oneself with it...

It was never the hunger for Trophies, that is the modern's plea of "see Me", "notice Me", "give Me My credit!", "reward My existence that has been the service i rendered you"... no different from the smearing of cake and make-up on slutwalks that scream "raise My credit points"...

The neediness for smearing oneself with credits and trophies in any opportunity, is also the kind of credit-mongering we see in SJWs.
The thoughtful tributes that Must go into distributing acknowledgements, is the lube that runs the conveyor belt of the "sensitive" victim industry.
Never forget the victim.
Footnotes and signposts are everywhere now, serving as memorials.
One sees to it every which way.
Opportunities set-up and manufactured for the sole purpose that it may come to 'spotlight' oneself, is the a-Trophying of interactions into interchanges.

Glory or Wuldor, from Proto-Indo-European *wel- (“to see”, seer/seeress),  for instance, associated with the god [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a-Trophied under [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] into the heaping of self-praise upon oneself from merely serving a glorious one; the 'glory' in serving Christ, the source of all glory...

In this regard, the aTrophied are the reverse of the meek Back-handers:

"Backhanding is referred to as slapping someone using the back of the hand instead of the palm—that is generally a symbolic, less forceful blow. Correspondingly, a backhanded (or left-handed) compliment, or asteism), is an insult that is disguised as, or accompanied by, a compliment, especially in situations where the belittling or condescension is intentional.

Examples of backhanded compliments include:

"I did not expect you to ace that exam. Good for you.", which could impugn the target's success as a fluke."

If back-handers are the miserly canaille that cannot bear the thought of handing due credit to another and cringingly disguise insults as 'compliments' to them, or vice-versa, never failing to compliment oneself even in their insults to others , the aTrophied are the maximus wretched cr(Editors) who do not spare to scavenge crediting oneself while attempting to compliment others...

"Notice Me please, and My Greatness, as i pay you credit for such and such..." -

This 'war like no other' is neither hot nor cold, but a luke-warm one.

Man-slaves, effetes, faggots, feminists, the meek, the wretched, sluts and midgets, the disinherited and the demis are the cadavers that have spiritually atrophied.

This lukewarm war is massaging oneself with spiritual alcohol spreading warmth all over, compensating for a daring inner spirit.

Xt. communalism chose to serve bread and wine to connote the body and spirit of Christ; fermentation from Latin fermentare "to leaven, cause to rise or ferment" was symbolic of the resurrection.

Luke-warmth giving safety nets for fer-Mentation of spirits too weak to fruition and blow words to their fullest capacity for significance, remaining ghostly signs;
Words snuffed and aborted before birth,
Words become casual interchanges in the mouths of the aTrophied, the cowards and the impostors,
Crimes become petty, lacking grand breath in the depraved and the hedonistic hypocrites,,

who could be more J.-Xt. than the a-Trophied, fermenting their names and games and looking for opportunities to re-invent themselves simply to hear themselves praised all over again?

Today [20.4], we are conscious of a different kind of heroic standard, so much so, that a daring select may alone be permitted to say, even such standards must be overcome...

Purpose and cross-purpose must not just unite, but Ignite.

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Ingwaz is kindled fervor, and in the en-kindling of nothingness, truth and order were born, says the RV creation hymn.
What is truth-full is firm, steadfast, is at rest, is unhesitant.
And on the seventh day of creation, was rest!?!, they said, as Saturday, the seventh day, the sabbath, became the day of drunkenness and luke-warm looseness...

Ingwaz, is the rune of fertility, of the sacred seed building, of thighs gnashing, of ardour, the marriage of land and king, of rest-full effortless effort.

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In reverse, it is labour, toil, effort, work, movement without change, the dwarf of time... all that Saturday, Cronus, and the Fall, Chronos came to stand for, the a-Trophying of the golden age... Chronic melancholia, tabs, tags, and credits...

'The tying up of loose ends', is arriving at the most comprehensive conclusion we call karma or found freedom. Decisive, righteous action.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] / [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] / Yngvi-[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], the strength of the boar sustaining the inner fire, the oath-boar...
"Inguz contains within its lore the true meaning of sacrifice. Such sacrifice occurs when one form is called upon to die so that a newly evolved form may begin to grow...
The failure of a magical operation is often caused by the lack of the operator ‘letting go’ of some past form of manifestation so that a newly desired form can be born. All humans live in the past to some degree or another, but one must apply the laws of nature which call for death of the old in order to bring about transformation into new energies and new forms."

What we know as sacrifice, Xt. knows of a-Trophy alone...

"Only when we know our solitude to be different from our loneliness can we be whole enough to honor another’s place."

Rune of "Stored energy" - Fats, Memes, Epi-genesis...

"Sudden release of energy";
"The English language participle “-ing” adds to any verb the idea of acton. Do-ing, Be-ing, See-ing, etc. The addition of “ing” represents action in the actual process of activity (rather than an object). Thus, even common elements within our most common language use “ing” to infer the process of creation."

To Ignite, from ignis, fire, extended to "brightness, splendor, glow;" figuratively "rage, fury, passion," from PIE root *egni- "fire" (source also of Sanskrit agnih "fire, sacrificial fire," Old Church Slavonic ogni, Lithuanian ugnis "fire"). igneous - geological meaning "produced by volcanic forces"...

"The slow gestation of subtle inevitable changes, leading to life-altering events, high point of intensity or development, climax - "propositions rising in effectiveness," literally "ladder", lean, incline, series of steps by which a goal is achieved"...
Related to saturnine depression, chronic slope, ill-legalities; nihilism, the inability to posit meaning-full goals.
Chrono-logos is about goal-real-izing vocation...
By doing, one foregoes. One-pointed concentration lets strip away the non-essential, pure essence, sap.

Seventh-day vacation is vocational fulfillment. Famed golden age.

Protection at the beginning of life-changing projects.

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Orgasm, "to swell with strength" (source also of Sanskrit urja "a nourishment, sap, vigor," Old Irish ferc, ferg "anger"), Fats...

Vedic fire, Agni, two sticks rubbing kindle, light, and world;
Spiritual fire, the fire of speech, of sacred syllable, of True Desire, of enkindled heart(h) that 'sees', that gleams, gives off.

Sanskrit *Bha denoted speech, fire, fame, glory.

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"Modern English no longer utilizes the internal active word for fire (Ing.) One of the last remaining vestiges of Ing in the English language is the word "Inglenook" which means "the nook for the god of sacred fire whose name is Ing." The inglenook is an older word for the fireplace or the hearth of the home."

"Inguz is also the Rune of inheritance and genetic transmission and family line and reincarnation of ancestors within the family line..."

Kindle, from c. 1200, cundel, "to set fire to, to start on fire," probably from a Scandinavian source akin to Old Norse kynda "to kindle, to light a fire," Swedish quintal, Intransitive sense "to begin to burn, to catch fire" is from c. 1400. Middle English in sense, by kindel "to give birth" (of animals), "bring forth, produce" (c. 1200), from kindel (n.) "offspring of an animal, young one," from Old English gecynd, "kind, nature, race," related to cynn "family", "kin", from Proto-Germanic *kundjaz "family, race," from PIE *gene- "to give birth, beget", "genus" - Sanskrit janati "begets, bears," janah "race," janman- "birth, origin," jatah "born;" Avestan zizanenti "they bear;" Greek gignesthai "to become, happen," genos "race, kind," gonos "birth, offspring, stock;" Latin gignere "to beget," gnasci "to be born," genius "procreative divinity, inborn tutelary spirit, innate quality," ingenium "inborn character," possibly germen "shoot, bud, embryo, germ;" Lithuanian gentis "kinsmen;" Gothic kuni "race;" Old English cennan "beget, create," gecynd "kind, nature, race;" Old High German kind "child;" Old Irish ro-genar "I was born;" Welsh geni "to be born;" Armenian chanim "I bear, I am born").
Now obsolete, senses included "character, quality derived from birth", "fame", and "manner or way natural or proper to anyone"


Genius igneous.

Ignition of gnowledge.

The seed. The germination of determination.

Latin ingenium "inborn qualities, talent", ingenious, in Late Latin "a war Engine, battering ram". Sense of "device that converts energy to power.

Ing-ine.

The Will to Power.

The Triumph of the Will.


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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Tue May 09, 2017 6:16 pm

Our sense of self is more than where our tangible sensibility ends, but encompasses the extent to where our intangible senses extend...

Our 'sphere of influence' is the quantum of becoming we are.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:14 am



Quote :
The deities are also there to obscure knowledge.

Absolute ignorance is the "same" as absolute knowledge. Gods are a tool for making ourselves response-able to reality. That is, knowledge utilizes an aspect of the self to make what is perceived, similar. Again, in nature, you see this with marking of territory: cats and dogs marking with their scent and apes/humans marking through touch and memory*. Marking serves not only the purpose of warding off others or inviting others, but familiarity for self. A way of putting oneself in the world to increase confidence.

What the Persians did, with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], was discover an inversion of ignorance. Not Pagan, but Persian. This concept of inverted ignorance necessarily took with it an aspect of self, as all (markings) of knowledge take. This is where you get the idea of one having ownership over or entitlement to every little/last thing.

Pagan Gods have an aspect of humility to them that the Persian deity does not. That humility is an absence of the inversion of ignorance. It is not either/or, binary, with Pagan deities.

Are the external world patterns imperfect, or our recognition as patterns, imperfect? What is the Persian view of this?



*Humans are also visual, so they created trinkets out of enemy skulls or tribal warpaint as a way of marking territory as well. Height is another aspect of this, as it is a way of marking territory when other humans can see someone who is tall presiding over an area. Female attraction to height comes may in part be due to this.
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:33 pm

All a pagan man would ask of his wife is that she bear him many healthy children, that she keep the hearth burning, day and night, and that she be the superior to any mediocre man or woman.

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:58 am

When frontiers seem closed, the masculine dig back down to reinforce their roots.
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:35 am

No frontiers is a cognitive cage, a fenced park, requiring no male to explore further, to defend the group, to stand before them and the wild.

The only frontiers still open are microcosmic, and the macsrocosmic.
Both require specialized technologies, compensating for physical, genetic, limits - equalizing males and females.

Still males dominate, and females support and follow.

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 am

Microcosmic is useful for the macrocosmic or as entertainment and advancement when the macrocosmic is taken care of. In order to take a more macrocosmic approach frontier-wise, also requires a macrocosmic approach history-wise to learn from and bring new relevance to the smallest lessons from the past and integrating them into the approach for the future. The 'mass movements', the macro-cosmic phenomenon, has to be slowly manipulated through generations of 'nudges' one way or another - and learning/knowing self, through knowing past, is what enables it.
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:22 am

The gods were our metaphors and now that they are gone, we are limited to a narcissistic sort of human and anthropocentric metaphor which anyone can libel as being the result of psychosis or wishful thinking. Without the gods we cannot express natural laws without inflating ourselves. The wise and knowledgeable are slandered as pompous and puffed up, and the pompous and puffed up come off as intelligent.
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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:12 pm

Old norse verses from around the year 1000, mentioning the conversion to christianity.


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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:25 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:45 pm

JF a fellow Quebecois, has set-up a kind of knowledge channel on Indo-European heritage.

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:38 pm

It would be interesting to see you talk with him. Though considering the kinds of people who watch him, I don't think you'd want that kind of hostile attention. It wouldn't be difficult to dox you and Canadian law is such that you could get into trouble easily.

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PostSubject: Re: Paganism and natural order. Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:12 pm

I would rather not.
Even JF is now involved in some drama with Sargon who is accusing him of sabotaging his events.
Getting involve with these people, even if there are a few decent guys in there, is risky.

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