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PostSubject: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:00 am

Who else is familiar with him? I can't recommend him highly enough. He's probably my favorite philosopher.

His 'Who is to be Master of the World?' should be read by everyone who thinks they understand Nietzsche.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:24 am

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:59 am

That video barely scratched the surface. I'll be posting more of his thoughts as I (re)read his voluminous work.

I converted the books on his website into ebooks, if anyone's interested in me uploading them.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:09 am

I am.
Send me e-books by him.
I collect books.

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:23 am

Alright. I'll upload them tonight. Do you know of a good host site?
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:39 pm

Is there no way to do it here?

Maybe apaosha or Lyssy knows how.

There's also this connected FaceBook page;
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:26 pm

I think I found a good host site. I'll upload them by tonight.

I spent a few nights making them, so I'm glad someone else will enjoy them besides me.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:09 pm

You can just upload it on Scribd I think.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:35 pm

fileswap .com /dl/Pfcvqq6cRm/ (it won't let me post full links yet)

Here you go, a treasure trove of well-hidden wisdom.

They're in both EPUB and MOBI format, depending on which ereader you have.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:11 pm

I can't access it.
I'm technologically inept.

Sorry.

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:16 pm

Did you close the gaps?

fileswap .com/dl/Pfcvqq6cRm/

Copy and paste it into your browser and delete the space before the . then hit enter
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:16 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:20 pm

That's it, thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:24 pm

There's a lot of good stuff there. Thanks for the upload.

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:28 pm

NP, I'm glad there are others who appreciate Ludovici, and I'm glad the 5 hours I spent getting the formatting right wasn't wasted.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:13 am

I downloaded "Anthony Ludovici: The Lost Philosopher" in Kindle version from Counter-Currents. It's sort of an anthology. I loved it.

Laconophile, I just tried accessing the file and it's not available. Have you removed it, or may it has timed out or something? I'd love to get ahold of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:26 am

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:59 am



available in epub and mobi only

4shared.com/get/XpuPn7H0/Anthony_Ludovici.html
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:29 am

sunny 
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:37 pm

I edited those 4 to make them more into an ebook - without the page numbers and properly fitting tables and special characters.

Epub+Mobi-Files

Jews, and the Jews in England
The Four Pillars of Health
Enemies of Women - The Origins in Outline of Anglo-Saxon Feminism
The Quest of Human Quality - How to Rear Leaders

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:50 pm

In the first chapter of "Enemies of Women", Ludovici finds the philosophical root of femininsm (among other modern phenomena) to be Socrates. His dualism, the separation of body and mind, into two distinct things. And the gradual dismissal of the body in favour of the pure soul, the 'invisible' qualities. How physical, reality and all its manifestations became, over time, meaningless, later, rendered un-pure under Christianity - something vile. That either/or phenomenon - body/mind - a split.

Good reading.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:10 pm

Anfang wrote:
I edited those 4 to make them more into an ebook - without the page numbers and properly fitting tables and special characters.

Epub+Mobi-Files

Jews, and the Jews in England
The Four Pillars of Health
Enemies of Women - The Origins in Outline of Anglo-Saxon Feminism
The Quest of Human Quality - How to Rear Leaders

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Good work.

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:30 pm

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Jews, and the Jews in England
The Four Pillars of Health
Enemies of Women - The Origins in Outline of Anglo-Saxon Feminism
The Quest of Human Quality - How to Rear Leaders
Creation or Recreation
The Choice of a Mate
The Secret of Laughter
Violence and Sacrifice

I edited the previous books again, corrected some scan artifacts and most of the tables are now in image form to make them more compatible with most readers and formats.

Now I have to catch up on the actual reading.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:49 pm

Is it the same link?
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:00 pm

Should be a new link. Well, the thing it's linked to is definitely different.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:40 am

Could you repost the link?
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:51 pm

For a quick view of his texts; his website in case no one knew:

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:20 pm

hǣþen wrote:
Could you repost the link?

That latest link contains the 4 books from the first link too, they got improved a bit and I added four more books. That latest link should still be active.

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:36 pm

Thank you Anfang
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:33 pm

Excellent. Thanks a lot, Anfang.

How did you do it? Do you use some kind of OCR program or something?
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:06 pm

I used the same source as Laconophile, the page Lyssa pointed out. After reading the ones you linked for a bit I decided to make them more readable on those ebook devices. Maybe they'll find more circulation that way because I think he deserves to be re-remembered.

--and the software for editing was Sigil, an epub editor.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:48 pm

Thanks, Anfang. I've never heard of Sigil.

If you'd like more people to find the ebooks, you can upload them to archive.org
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:32 am

Thanks.
I think I might just do that - maybe I'll add a few more before though. And correct some more scanning errors.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:54 pm

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:55 am

A. M. Ludovici in Enemies of Women wrote:
Now modern science has wholly vindicated the pre-Socratic Greek view as against the Socratic view of man, and will have nothing to do with an arbitrary division of the human being into soul, or mind, and body.
Science now regards man as a psycho-physical unity, or a psychosome, or mind-body, and no matter what we may believe about its ultimate nature, the human organism is describable only in terms of function as 'body-mind' or 'mind-body'. This definition is generally accepted. . . . Thus there is no longer any way of distinguishing a category of human distresses or mal adjustments which is 'spiritual'. . . . and there is no sort of physical disorder without some psychological concomitant or effect."

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:01 pm

Ludovici in EoW wrote:
It was the old hoax of the fox that had lost its tail. But, strange to say, he got away with it and, by so doing, established for over 2,000 years the principal beliefs of the White Man concerning human nature.
The best men in Greece — men like Aristophanes — despised and ridiculed him and his doctrine. The merely conventional hated him. Hence, ultimately, he was charged with corrupting the youth of the country and perverting its faith, and he was condemned to death.
Unhappily for posterity, two of his apprentices, Xenophon and Plato, survived him. Both were taken in by his attacks on the healthy old Greek belief in the oneness of Man, and both had a scribbling and preaching mania which enabled them to transmit to the generations that followed them their master's unwholesome doctrine.
What, in fact, were the positions Socrates established? They were:—
(a) The Duality of Man, i.e. his two-sided existence. The one side being his body and the other his soul or mind.
(b) The soul's independence of the body.
(c) The soul's superiority to the body.
(d) The worthlessness and despicableness of the body.
(e) The immortality of the soul.

The standard believe system nowadays. It's underneath most believes and accepted morality, though it's usually not explicitly formulated.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:56 pm

Ludovici in EoW wrote:
Finally, in the Phaedo, he reaches the logical outcome of all this unwholesome sophistry — the visible in man must be despised. Gathering to his aid all his effrontery and all his hatred of the old, healthy Greek view of good looks he says:—
"If we are ever to do anything purely, we must be separated from the body . . . and thus being pure and separated from the body, we shall know the whole real essence and that is probably truth . . . For purification consists in this, in separating as much as possible the soul from the body . . . And does not holding the passions in contempt and keeping them in subjection — does not this belong to those only who must despise the body?"
Thus, not only were bodily differences between men to be held of no account (a useful view to Socrates and his like), but the whole of the bodily side of life was also to be despised.

So my interpretation and extrapolation of this part is that the soul is separated from the body and that the soul is superior - the part which matters. But which parts are from the body and what parts make up the soul? Flesh and bone are part of the body but the 'passions' seem to be part of it as well. Maybe the distinction is made between the animalistic part and the rest. What is shared with animals is part of the body and what differentiates man from the rest of the animals is put into the soul category.
Socrates also argues here that those who subject the body to discipline via reason, those who dominate the body, who control their passions, must despise their body.
Excellent bullshit artistry.

All of this can only happen in a civilized environment. Reason enables civilizations to rise and eventually it all needs to fall apart - the body demands some form of domination. If not via reason then via nature.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:42 am

Ludovici in The Choice of a Mate wrote:
Thus mixed breeding in random-bred stocks such as those composing the populations of modern civilized countries, has three principal results:—
(1) It may, by a stroke of pure luck, produce a new individual who is harmonious and symmetrical, with bodily parts proportionately correlated, and who is free from morbid factors, or possesses them only in innocuous, fractional proportions, or as recessives.
(2) It may, and usually does, produce an individual who is inharmonious and discordant, that is to say, who presents an asymmetrical whole, with bodily parts disproportionately correlated, and who has some morbid traits sufficiently pronounced to be displayed.
(3) And, by the same chance conjunction which produced (1) it may produce an unlucky individual, with a grave state of disharmony, showing itself in ugliness, mal-co-ordination and dysfunction, and with an acutely grave correlation of morbid factors.

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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:37 pm

Ludovici in EoW wrote:
Thus, for over two thousand years, the Socratic doctrine has been part of our atmosphere, soaking into our blood and bones, so much so that, today, even those who have never heard of Socrates — the charwoman, the postman and the coal-heaver — all speak on these matters of man's s visible and invisible aspects as if they had sat at his feet.
Now the Feminists of all times — whether in Hellenistic Greece or in Renaissance or 17th century Europe, naturally seized with alacrity upon the arguments Socrates offered them. For, if the body was negligible, if bodily differences did not matter, if the soul alone counted, the visible or physical differences between man and woman were also negligible. Indeed, the more one behaved as if there were no difference between man and woman, the purer one was, because the less one was considering the despicable body.
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PostSubject: Re: Anthony Ludovici Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:31 pm

Anfang wrote:
Ludovici in EoW wrote:
Thus, for over two thousand years, the Socratic doctrine has been part of our atmosphere, soaking into our blood and bones, so much so that, today, even those who have never heard of Socrates — the charwoman, the postman and the coal-heaver — all speak on these matters of man's s visible and invisible aspects as if they had sat at his feet.
Now the Feminists of all times — whether in Hellenistic Greece or in Renaissance or 17th century Europe, naturally seized with alacrity upon the arguments Socrates offered them. For, if the body was negligible, if bodily differences did not matter, if the soul alone counted, the visible or physical differences between man and woman were also negligible. Indeed, the more one behaved as if there were no difference between man and woman, the purer one was, because the less one was considering the despicable body.





Quote :
"Socrates goes still further in depreciating his daimonion. Not only does it not incite him to anything but it keeps him away from politics, the one field where he might do harm. And politics was that which as much fascinated Theages as occupied the men ivho indicted and condemned Socrates. To them he would be useless, his daimonion mere apathy; his neglect of politics assured his indifference; his lack of ambition made him negligible. If Socrates had no share in the life of the city, he ceased to count as a political factor: resolved to be inactive, he abandoned his political identity. What this abandonment means can be made clear if we look at its extreme formulation. Those who lie furthest beyond a city's influence, whose bodies fill the ranks of no army, are the dead; who form not a cipher in the calculations of statesmen, nor cast a shadow on their decrees. With the death of his body a citizen's life comes to an end: -whether his soul survives him has no political relevance. He is buried outside the city. While he lives, however, such a boundary is never crossed (certain duties ever attending him), but his approach toward it, in its political sense, became for Socrates the definition of philosojfcyj the practice of dying and being dead. From all bodily things the philosopher tries to escape: from his senses in working out his epistemology; from his passions in all his reasoning; and from the city in his way of life— 'in truth his body alone stays at home in the city, but his thought flies everywhere.' Thus is the philosopher 'dead to the world.' The separation of body and soul, then, as it honors only the soul, destroys a man's political usefulness.

The prohibition against politics compelled Socrates' retreat to privacy, where artificial necessities diminish, while the necessity of nature holds sway: where his choice of companions, obeying the dictates of his daimonion, as it rejects or approves, afforded him the greatest pleasure. And yet Philosophy, defined in this way, would seem to deny philosophy as Eros, whose existence depends on -what the practice of dying set at naught: his interest in things transcending the city would also transcend his friends. If the philosopher is ignorant of the way to the market-place, how could Socrates be a daily visitor? And if he does not know whether his neighbor is a man or some animal, how could Socrates spend so much time with the young? We had noticed before how Socrates' professing knowledge of love was misunderstood by Theages, who would not take seriously such a vile subject. It represented to him everything private and unimportant, the very opposite of a political life.

An attachment between two, who are not engaged in conspiracy but in talk, disturbs the politician no more than a single death. Beyond these attachments Socrates rarely ventured. Although he needed the city from which to recruit young men for philosophy, as he needed the city to provide food for his body, his Eros was not the vulgar Eros of political ambition, which, becoming the condottiero of all other desires, leads to tyranny.
It was not just purposeless desire, keeping him chained to the senses, but an instinctive desire which attracted him toward those who might become like himself. His instinct could not help being drawn to these, and hence to the city where they alone are found: but his daimonion pulled him and them at the same time away from the city.
Though Socrates had to descend into the city, like Orpheus into Hades, to obtain what he desired, he never looked back. Though he instructed his pupils in the ways of the city, in politics, above all else, this study was but the means employed to transcend them. Thus by a curious paradox the way to the marketplace led beyond it: his Eros shares with his daimonion its non-political character." [Benardete, The Daimonion of Socrates]


-


Quote :
"Socrates says he has always been a lover (erastes) of a way than which none is more beautiful, but which often abandons him and leaves him perplexed.i6 Socrates is a lover of philosophy; he does not and cannot philosophize at the drop of a hat, as if a philosophical question were already there and all he had to do would be to face it and handle it. Only two dialogues begin without any preliminaries with what we may call a philosophical question - they start straight off with the question, - and in both cases the interlocutor is anonymous. That the love of the good emerges as the theme of one (Hipparchus) and law is the theme of the other (Minos) seems not unrelated to their evidently philosophical character:

Socrates says that law wants to be the discovery of what is Philosophy, in any case, cannot be something that one does. There must be, then, a prephilosophical state of the lover of the philosophy from which he begins. This preliminary condition shows up in ordinary conversation, and only because of a turn within it does it begin to become dialectics. Socrates asks Cephalus in the Republic how he finds old age; and his putative concern with his own old age, as if he did not know that Athens would cut his life short, prompts this friendly but idle question. Cephallls speaks of several things, the weakness of old age, the change in desires time brings, money, the hopes and terrors of the afterlife, and justice; but one can readily see that either death or desire, no less than the love of gain, could have occasioned another kind of discussion. Now once justice becomes the question, it does not become Philosophic before the question of what justice is gets disentangled from the question what good it is:

This disengagement, however, of interest from being is merely a surface transformation: what is still pushing the discussion is interest in justice, for without such an interest any answer, no matter how defective, would be, in the face of indifference, as satisfactory as any other.'
Consequently, the occasion and the question cannot be separated even while they are being separated. what keeps them together is the philosopher's self-knowledge which essentially depends on maintaiqinga double vision: What is it? and What good is it? Eros is the name for this double vision.  

It consists in the acknowledgment that the need for separation, which makes understanding possible, and the desire for union, which would make satisfaction possible, cannot be naturally overcome. The invisible blush of Socrates marks the difference between his general awareness of the necessary incompleteness of philosophy, despite its constituting the completely human life, and his growing awareness of the partial structure of its incompleteness and his ignorance.

To have the erotic art is to have the capacity to get absorbed in the question at hand and never forget oneself. Plato's way of representing this to us is to raise the most difficult of questions while making Socrates the most vividly conceived of individuals." [Benardete, Plato and Socrates]


-



Benardete extricates from Socrates, that Philosophy starts in the Mundane, in encountering the mundane. Yet this Socrates, Benardete paints interestingly, is an Orpheus who descends down into the market-place but without ever looking back. Curiosity, the need to discover and cultivate self-same souls, to breed a type,a  temperament, and an art of doing philosophy forces him to take to the market-place; he is of necessity drawn to it - this is his Eros.
Orpheus enchants, and his music "softens" all creatures, even the heart of death, of Hades; he descends to retrieve "lost souls"...
At the same time, Socrates doesn't want to indulge in "petty" politics. He wants to talk of love, and virtue, and desire - "mundane" topics that the rulers are not interested, have no concern as long as it doesn't revolve around power. Socrates resists taking part, claiming wisdom is "I know one thing and that is I know nothing." - this is his Daimonion.

Socrates shows Eros and the Daimon are two sides of the same.

N. adopts this. Zarathustra descends/has to descend periodically from the mountains, from his seclusion to visit the market-place. His Eros, the weight of his "honey-knowledge" compels him to seek kindred souls.
Petty politics of the kings and the priests and the rulers is what makes N. say similarly, to put atleast a century or two between oneself and one's time when it comes to doing Philosophy. 6000 ft. beyond man and time...
Perspectivism is like using oars to draw and push away the currents to and from oneself as necessary; Dionysos and Apollo.

Empedocles cites Love and Strife as the two divine powers that move the world. It is because there is Eros that pulls everything together, there is Strife, and the stimulus to want to distance oneself and stand apart. They revive each other.

To put the body to death was deemed a-political.

To Socrates, this separation of the soul from the body, "free to roam", was an art of alchemy. The Philosopher's stone has the same recipe in N., when he writes against the Political of his time, to contrast free-spiritedness as supporting itself on "light ropes" and edge of abysses "away from the city", from civilization, the market-place:

Quote :
"Some have still need of metaphysics; but also the impatient longing for certainty which at present discharges itself in scientific, positivist fashion among large numbers of the people, the longing by all means to get at something stable (while on account of the warmth of the longing the establishing of the certainty is more leisurely and negligently undertaken): even this is still the longing for a hold, a support; in short, the instinct of weakness, which, while not actually creating religions, metaphysics, and convictions of all kinds, nevertheless preserves them.  In fact, around all these positivist systems there fume the vapours of a certain pessimistic gloom, something of weariness, fatalism, disillusionment, and tear of new disillusionment or else manifest animosity, ill humour, anarchic exasperation, and whatever there is of symptom or masquerade of the feeling of weakness.  Even the readiness with which our cleverest contemporaries get lost in wretched corners and alleys, for example, in Patriotism (I mean what is called chauvinisme in France and "deutsch" in Germany), or in petty aesthetic creeds in the manner of Parisian naturalisme.  (which only brings into prominence and uncovers that aspect of nature which excites simultaneously disgust and astonishment they like at present to call this aspect la verite vraie), or in Nihilism in the St Petersburg style (that is to say, in the belief in unbelief, even to martyrdom for it): this shows always and above all the need of belief, support, backbone, and buttress.  Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, where there is a lack of will: for the will, as the affect of command, is the distinguishing characteristic of sovereignty and power.  That is to say, the less a person knows how to command, the more urgent is his desire for that which commands, and commands sternly, a God, a prince, a caste, a physician, a confessor, a dogma, a party conscience.  From whence perhaps it could be inferred that the two world religions, Buddhism and Christianity might well have had the cause of their rise and especially of their rapid extension in an extraordinary collapse and disease of the will.

...both religions were teachers of fanaticism in times of slackness of will power, and thereby offered to innumerable persons a support, a new possibility of exercising will, an enjoyment in willing.  For in fact fanaticism is the sole "volitional strength" to which the weak and irresolute can be excited, as a sort of hypnotising of the entire sensory-intellectual system in favour of an excessive nuorishment (hypertrophy) of a single point of view and a particular feeling which then becomes dominates - the Christian calls it his faith.  When a man arrives at the fundamental conviction that he requires to be commanded he becomes "a believer". Conversely, one could conceive of a delight and power of self­ determination, afreedom of the will, in which the spirit takes leave of all faith and every wish for certainty, practised as it is in maintaining itself on light ropes and possibilities and dancing on the verge of abysses. Such a spirit would be the free spirit par excellence." [JW, 347]


The Philosophical way of life is Orphic. Shamanic.

Heavy periods of isolation and engagement sitting permanently no where;

Quote :
"Brief habits. - I love brief habits and consider them invaluable means for getting to know  many things and states down to the bottom of their sweetnesses and bitternesses; my nature is designed entirely for brief habits, even in the needs of its physical health and generally  as far as I can see at all, from the lowest to the highest. I always believe  this will give me lasting satisfaction - even brief habits have this faith of passion, this faith in eternity - and that I am to be envied for having found and recognized it, and now it nourishes me at noon and in the evening and spreads a deep contentment around itself and into me, so that I desire nothing else, without having to compare, despise, or hate. And one day its time is up; the good thing parts from me, not as something that now disgusts me but peacefully and sated with me, as I with it, and as if we ought to be grateful to each other and so shake hands to say farewell. And already the new waits at the door along with my faith - the  indestructible fool and sage! - that this new thing will be the right thing, the last right thing. This happens to me with dishes, thoughts, people, cities, poems, music, doctrines, daily schedules, and ways of living.  

Enduring habits, however, I hate, and feel as if a tyrant has come near me and the air around me is  thickening when events take a shape that seems inevitably to produce enduring habits - for instance, owing to an official position, constant relations with the same people, a permanent residence, or uniquely good health. Yes, at the very bottom of my soul I am grateful to all my misery and illnesses and whatever is imperfect in me because they provide a hundred back doors through which I can escape enduring habits. To me the most intolerable, the truly terrible, would of course would be a life entirely without habits, a life that continually demanded improvisation - that would be my exile and my Siberia. [JW, 295]

In his thoughts on Socrates in the WTP, he writes,

Quote :
"Socrates.- This reversal of taste in favor of dialectics is a great question mark. What was it that really happened? Socrates, the raturier' who accomplished it, achieved by means of it victory over a more noble taste, the taste of the nobility: the mob achieved victory with dialectics. Before Socrates, the dialectical manner was repudiated in good society; one believed it compromised one; youth was warned against it. Why this display of reasons? Why should one demonstrate? Against others one possessed authority. One commanded: that sufficed. Among one's own, inter pares, one possessed tradition, also an authority: and, finally, one "understood one another"! One simply had no place for dialectic. Besides, one mistrusted such public presentation of one's arguments. Honest things do not display their reasous in that way. There is something indecent about showing all one's cards. What can be "demonstrated" is of little worth.- The instinct of all party orators knows, moreover, that dialectics inspire mistrust, that they are very unconvincing. Nothing is easier to expunge than the effect of a dialectician.
Dialectics can only be an emergency measure. One must experience all emergency, one must be obliged to extort one's rights: otherwise one makes no use of dialectics. That is why the Jews were dialecticians, why Reynard the Fox was one, why Socrates was one. One has a merciless weapon in one's hand. One can tyrannize with it. One compromises when one conquers. One leaves it to one's victim to prove that he is not an idiot. One makes others furious and helpless, while one remains the embodiment of cool, triumphant reasonableness oneself--one deprives one's opponent's intelligence of potency.- The irony of the dialectician is a form of mob revenge: the ferocity of the oppressed finds an outlet in the cold knife-thrust of the syllogism- In Plato, as a man of over-excitable sensuality and enthusiasm, the charm of the concept had grown so strong that he involuntarily honored and deified the concept as an ideal Form. Intoxication by dialectic: as the consciousness of exercising mastery over oneself by means of it--as a tool of the will to power." [WTP, 432]

Quote :
"Shrewdness, clarity, severity and logicality as weapons against the ferocity of the drives. These must be dangerous and threaten destruction: otherwise there would be no sense in developing shrewdness to the point of making it into a tyrant. To make a tyrant of shrewdness :-but for that the drives must be tyrants. This is the problem.- In those days it was a very timely problem. Solution: The Greek philosophers rest on the same fundamental facts of inner experience as Socrates: five steps from excess, from anarchy, from intemperance - all men of decadence. They need him as a physician...
The fanaticism of its interest in "happiness" indicates the pathological nature of the hidden cause: it was a life-or-death interest. To be reasonable or perish was the alternative before which they all stood. The moralism of the Greek philosophers indicates that they felt themselves to be in danger." [WTP, 433]


Dialectics as an "emergency measure" in the face of barbaric rulers who had to enchanted with reason, turned into a permanent Ideal. This is old news.

What one has to observe is N.'s definition of "virtue"  -  as that "virtu" [force] that provides virtues as and according to what contingency demands.
What N. takes away from Socrates is how he "conquered" and "ruled" "through making compromises"  of the original noble art of never having to explain oneself.
Socratic philosophy is actually heavy-duty politics.

The body and the soul go together, and were never separated.

N. "practises" Socrates, when he defines virtue as the art of legislating as "emergency measures", the art of contigent inventions.

This is to say, N.'s Socrates was actually Heraclitean to the extent in the face of barbarism, one adapted. Despite what Socrates "taught", what Socrates "practised" was ruling by adaptation, to go with the flow.
N. was a Socratic. He restores Socrates.


Lampert does not go into such details when he explains the esoterism of 'how philosophy became socratic', but one gets the picture.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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