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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:23 pm

Æon wrote:
At the very least, Lyssa has a perverted mind of sorts.

You are right there.

I love dealing with dead-ends like you.

That indeed makes me perverse, quite out of the ordinary.


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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:27 pm

You're very provocative and forward with your insults. You prefer bluntness over subtlety.

Either I offended you recently, or you are trying to improve your station and status with your boyfriend.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:30 pm

Satyr wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
And was she Mere metaphor herself?

The "mere" bait, yes.

The prose, prosaic, for its own sake.
Art for art's sake.

Art referring back to art.
The word, the symbol, referring back to symbols.
Connection to reality, to the phenomenon, lost in a circular noetic device.


There is a difference between saying everything is metaphor and saying, everything is Only metaphor Always...

It is a very cynical view from a weariness.

The disbelief in the Am for too long.

I AM x, y, z...

The weariness doesn't let the Am stand for long... it turns cynical and uses this cynicism ['My conscience doesn't allow the lie that there could be any be-ing for long'] to justify a hedonism.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:33 pm

Æon wrote:
You're very provocative and forward with your insults.  You prefer bluntness over subtlety.

Being in the dungeon, that must be news to you only now! I excuse you.

Quote :
Either I offended you recently,

You wish...

Quote :
or you are trying to improve your station and status with your boyfriend.

You know me best. I'm only here to seduce all my boyfriendS, and more so my Lord and Master, you know who... Wink

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:20 am

lol
do you take me for a drunkard?
a body in a opium den?
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:25 am

phoneutria wrote:
lol
do you take me for a drunkard?
a body in a opium den?


No, I dont.

"Sometimes I’m terrified of my heart; of its constant hunger for whatever it is it wants. The way it stops and starts."
[Poe]

"Extract the eternal from the ephemeral." [Baudelaire]




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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:07 pm

The premise that hedonism requires a justification is silly.
The premise that carrying oneself a certain way is a consequence of the weariness of a cynical view is a better way to put it.
An even better way to put it is that cynicism is a factor in choosing a path.

"I chose hedonism because, among other things, I am cynical."

Neither "ascetic balance" nor hedonism are consequences.
They are paths.
The destiny is eudaimonia.

Satyr's "ascetic balance" (really, epicureanism), finds balance in indulging pleasures while not becoming a slave to them.
My hedonism finds balance in not permitting one pleasure to interfere with the others.

It is the same behavior, different motivations.
He "lives lightly" because he doesn't allow burdens to his conscience.
I "am light" because my conscience is not burdened by that which I enjoy.

Thus we can both enjoy a good ruby port... and the other's dialogue... on a good day.


Now, to the Huntress...

Leasy wrote:
The opposite of cynicism is not 'immediately' romantic naivete, or being less-experienced; its merely a question of health, of 'chastity' - keeping pace with reality as it is.

In this context, it is obvious to oppose cynicism with trust. She is not cynical, therefore she is trusting.
She is not naive, thus she will surrender trust when she finds one that is deserving of it.
She is inexperienced, for she is chaste.
She is healthy for her trust was never broken.

Thus, she waits... she will search earth and sky Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:03 pm

It's good to have no conscience and to justify yourself after you've surrendered to your animal instincts.
Word games are also enjoyable.

I like them because despite this non-interference, and non-justification, the mindless one still manages to not get into trouble by remaining aloof to her own behaviors.

It's like when a female declares herself an enlightened soul, not affected by appearances, then justifying her non attraction to ugly and weak men, after-the-fact...but not wanting to know why she felt pleasure in both surrendering and rejecting.
Non-interference, another word-game explaining why a mind is compartmentalized....why it is schizophrenic...why it contradicts itself in relation to its own values.

It does not allow its pleasure in getting fucked to interfere with the pleasure of equality.
So it never has to justify or integrate the two...three, four, ten behaviors.
The pleasure is enough.

A dog's life.
Luckily in modern system's even dogs have rights...and "deserve" to be protected and respected.
Just because.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:08 pm

are you saying one cannot like both thw blonde and the brunette?
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:14 pm

No, dear, I can like them both, but this would not indicate that liking one is different from liking the other, or the reason why does not go back to a single source.

Reducing pleasure to a hair color is like reducing race to skin pigmentation.  

"Live Lightly" is conscious. It is choice.
"I am light" is flaky, superficial, shallow.
Of course you are "light". You are mentally detached from reality.
You want to experience it without understanding it.  

An animal, if it had a choice.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:17 pm

Did I make an argument of race? I don't think so. It was another metaphor Wink

Your example fails because there is no interference between advocating equality and fucking. You gave the example of a hypocrite. A person who does not subscribe to equality at all, despite her words.

You also equate having no burdens in conscience to having no conscience. That's just silly dear.

If you want to speak against hypocrisy and against a lack of conscience, please do so, but do not do so in reply to my posts, as those words are not mine.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:27 pm

Evasion.
Nice.
I know dear...you are so complex that you never say anything.

Did I say you made an argument about race?
I love this game.
A worm dangling, squirming....wanting.  

No conscience interfering with my judgment of reality.
When I look I leave my emotions out of the interpretation, as much as possible.

Old Man wrote:
Reducing pleasure to a hair color is like reducing race to skin pigmentation.  

Using a clever quip does not mean you made a clever argument, or an argument at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:57 pm

neither did you, in regard to anything I say
fighting windmills again, dear Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:59 pm

I wouldn't say you were that thick, dear.

Allow me the pleasure of living in my own world.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:15 pm

who is evading, if you won't address my words, but your own, imagined interlocutor?
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:18 pm

You should disregard everything I post, or have ever posted, my dear.
They are ramblings of an old man. A tired, sick, old man, living in his own universe, seeing ghosts everywhere.
The world is as it appears to be.

My time here is drawing to a close.

At least for a long while.

Enjoy yourself.

Bon appetit....

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:21 pm

You are nice and curvy, and now evasion.... shall we do each other's nails next?
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:51 am

phoneutria wrote:
The premise that hedonism requires a justification is silly.

Except the premise was that hedonism in the case of one kind of a modern feminist is justified via cynicism... that is a point about feminism, not hedonism.


Quote :

The premise that carrying oneself a certain way is a consequence of the weariness of a cynical view is a better way to put it.

If that is what I wanted to convey, I would have, thanks. But that is not what I want to convey.

I want to convey, one kind of modern feminism is a weariness from cynicism and this cynicism is used to substantiate the choice of a certain way.
I say that because I do not see hedonism as an immediate consequence of this cynicism, Satyr's ascetic-epicureanism being an example.

Quote :

An even better way to put it is that cynicism is a factor in choosing a path.

"I chose hedonism because, among other things, I am cynical."

It may be A factor for A choice of whatever nature in someone's life-path, but I am not talking of hedonism am I.  The phenomenon I'm talking about is a certain kind of modern feminism, where it is used as The factor. And so my premise is about characterizing feminism, not hedonism.


Quote :
Neither "ascetic balance" nor hedonism are consequences.
They are paths.
The destiny is eudaimonia.

And fifi just wrote herself,
"The premise that carrying oneself a certain way is a consequence of the weariness of a cynical view is a better way to put it."

!


Quote :
Satyr's "ascetic balance" (really, epicureanism), finds balance in indulging pleasures while not becoming a slave to them.
My hedonism finds balance in not permitting one pleasure to interfere with the others.

It is the same behavior, different motivations.

No, nice inversion; its the same motivation, the same cynicism that you both share, but the behaviour and how you deal with that cynicism is different.
Satyr is not weary from it; I believe your kind of feminism is.

Quote :
He "lives lightly" because he doesn't allow burdens to his conscience.

I "am light" because my conscience is not burdened by that which I enjoy.

From what I understand of Satyr, he would enjoy a fine red wine moderately. Nothing in excess. Excess would kill the taste, the experience.
He wants to experience it again, and so savours it in balance. Living lightly is about knowing how to discriminately enjoy a certain thing.  

From what I understand of you, your cynical weariness has already decided that no moment, no experience will last in its uniqueness for more than a certain time, after which things get reified. So you use that cynicism to justify your tasting wine today, juice tom... as equally unique experiences. You do this because you have already concluded that you can't taste that wine again, do justice with it with the same conscience as the first time, the first awe of it. So you flit from one to the next to the next... because your conscience IS burdened by experiencing the same thing over again as you've said so yourself.

You cannot stay with reality for too long, it spoils the experience of the moment.

Living lightly for you is about never staying with something long enough as they become reified,,, you enjoy, and then move on to the next novelty from innumerable choices... finding something good in everything. This is an indiscriminate levelling and not a discriminate affirmation.

Satyr's epicureanism is content with red wine alone, and looking forward to experiencing it again. It is a product of his conscious discrimination.
Your hedonism needs novelty. It is as you say not burdened by whatever you enjoy because only experiencing that authentic momentariness, that "now" counts, doesn't matter "what" you indulge in, as long as you are able to be true to that moment.
That cynical weariness is used to justify indulging in "whatever" as everything gets reified beyond a certain moment. This loyalty only to the moment, to the now, is what makes you light. So although your hedonism is rooted in a suffering (stemming from your cynical weariness with the fluctuous nature of reality), your pleasure appears unburdened by any other awareness than the momentary, and you can think of yourself as being 'light'.



Quote :

Now, to the Huntress...

Leasy wrote:The opposite of cynicism is not 'immediately' romantic naivete, or being less-experienced; its merely a question of health, of 'chastity' - keeping pace with reality as it is.

In this context, it is obvious to oppose cynicism with trust. She is not cynical, therefore she is trusting.

Nice convolution of words and intentions.
"She is not naive, thus she will surrender trust when she finds one that is deserving of it." is the opp. of what you had said, which was - to be non-cynical was to be naive immediately. "She is not naive" is Not what you had said, the opp.
I am neither naive, nor cynical dear, just Han.


Quote :
She is inexperienced, for she is chaste.

Again, the 'obviousness' of this is flimsy.

Its because the huntress is chaste, she is able to and Has experienced more.
Some people's blood coagulates quicker, renews furiously and so wounds disappear like they never happened... traceless on the virgin skin...

No?

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Quote :
She is healthy for her trust was never broken.

Or she believes,

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"I choose your injustice as my alloted portion." [N., TSZ]


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A man's injustice and the pain he gives her belongs as much to HER as does his justice; perhaps she would have it no other way.
To surrender to someone is to affirm them Wholesomely beyond pain/pleasure, loss/gain, not the hedonistic bits that give pleasure alone; else its her very surrender that would then turn the hunter into no more than a pleasing animal, a prey to play with... and so a self-retardation.

Surrender with all your heart, or don't. 0/100.

Quote :
Thus, she waits... she will search earth and sky

Or she might wake up to what's always been right in front of her eyes. And then Remain, no matter what.


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Quote :
neither did you, in regard to anything I say
fighting windmills again, dear

If Satyr appears to be fighting windmills, its because You made the situation that way.

Satyr said, ""Live Lightly" is conscious."

And you responded speaking of "no burdens in conscience to having no conscience."

The conscious and the conscience are two different matters.
The absence of the former is "like reducing race to skin pigmentation." is what he said - a metaphor, dear.
When the conscience is burdened by awareness of reification, its conscious becomes unburdened, light... it indulges in the enjoyment of various things.
When the conscious is burdened by awareness of reification, its conscience becomes unburdened, light... surrendering totally to the momentary enjoyment alone.
You can take it whichever way, the meaning is the same Essentially.

Well, haven't slept a wink in two days. Taking a break,,, will have to respond to you later.

ciaos fifi.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:37 pm

Leasy wrote:

From what I understand of Satyr, he would enjoy a fine red wine moderately. Nothing in excess. Excess would kill the taste, the experience.
He wants to experience it again, and so savours it in balance. Living lightly is about knowing how to discriminately enjoy a certain thing.  

From what I understand of you, your cynical weariness has already decided that no moment, no experience will last in its uniqueness for more than a certain time, after which things get reified. So you use that cynicism to justify your tasting wine today, juice tom... as equally unique experiences. You do this because you have already concluded that you can't taste that wine again, do justice with it with the same conscience as the first time, the first awe of it. So you flit from one to the next to the next... because your conscience IS burdened by experiencing the same thing over again as you've said so yourself.

Is there a difference, really?
Couldn't you, instead of saying that my conscience is burdened by experiencing the same thing over again, say that that experiencing the same thing over again would kill the taste, the experience?
Once I've found "The Wine", the best wine ever tasted, one that puts all other wines on the floor, should I just drink it every day until I am sick of it?
I would rather retain the remarkable memory of that taste.

So for this thread...

Leasy wrote:
The awe of that first moment which we lock in our experience is only intensified again and again, every time we Re-turn to it when we turn around it, and we turn around it because it was so inspiring.

How long can you keep on inspiring, when you are on a 24h inspiring shift?
Or, does the Sovereign surrender to a man, and then goes on a vacation?
Oh... am I being cynical?
Wink

Quote :

Living lightly for you is about never staying with something long enough as they become reified,,, you enjoy, and then move on to the next novelty from innumerable choices.
You cannot stay with reality for too long, it spoils the experience of the moment.

Satyr's epicureanism is content with red wine alone, and looking forward to experiencing it again. It is a product of his conscious discrimination.

Are you saying that while Satyr is avoiding an excess of red wine, he doesn't try for a little cognac?

Quote :

Your hedonism needs novelty. It is as you say not burdened by whatever you enjoy because only experiencing that authentic momentariness, that "now" counts, doesn't matter "what" you indulge in, as long as you are able to be true to that moment. That cynical weariness is used to justify indulging in "whatever" as everything gets reified beyond a certain moment.

From what, exactly, do you gather that "what" I indulge in doesn't matter?
When I say that I am not burdened by that which I enjoy, I mean nothing other than my sense of taste is in alignment with my sense of moral.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:26 pm

My sweet, you are toying with your vagina.

Phonee wrote:
It is the same behavior, different motivations.
He "lives lightly" because he doesn't allow burdens to his conscience.
I "am light" because my conscience is not burdened by that which I enjoy.
My conscience is only burdened by consequences, not morals.
Your enjoyments are common, and so you need not worry about a thing.

Your mediocrity is consequence free.
Do you enjoy sipping tea, and going for long walks?
None of that interferes with your conscience, I trust.

You presume so much to feel better about your simplicity.
I live lightly to not have my enjoyment be interfered with...by manimals.
If I was not burdened by consequences then they would.
I also like control.
It accentuates my enjoyment.

In a world where some of these consequences are imposed, you would find my enjoyments difficult to stomach if this were not the case.

I enjoy cognac...but prefer wine.
I know what is the common ground between wine and cognac. 
I know why I enjoy. I do not simply enjoy.


For example, I would enjoy fucking you doggy-style because of your attitude.

I drink all wine, but prefer the best wine, in moderation.
Sometimes I break my own rules, just for the fuck of it.
Sometimes I overeat...other times I fast.

I find pleasure in the mundane, and make the best of it, as much as I can.
Like talking to dimwits online.
A guilty pleasure...which does not make me feel guilty.

I taste different wines seeking an even better one, knowing that no perfect wine can ever be found...nor should it...but I also know why I enjoy wine, and so I do not place much weight on drinking, or on wine, but only as a means...and tasting every single wine I come across is not my ambition. 

It's not "spontaneous," nor "just because".
That's what idiots say when they do not wish to go further, fearing that their pleasure might be diminished.

Knowing this does "kill the buzz", initially, but then it opens up the possibility of a more refined taste....and a greater appreciation.
You come to a place where a few wines suffice, and hearing of all these drunks drinking this and that, does not inspire you, because you know what it is: mostly hyperbole...minds wanting to appear more content than they are, equating quantity with quality.  

I know that despite gossip, there is no absolutely greener pasture (just to mix up the metaphors)...and so I find contentment in the one I'm in....sheeple, cows, bovines, and all...plus a few humans.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:22 pm

Quote :
Nice convolution of words and intentions.
"She is not naive, thus she will surrender trust when she finds one that is deserving of it." is the opp. of what you had said, which was - to be non-cynical was to be naive immediately. "She is not naive" is Not what you had said, the opp.
I am neither naive, nor cynical dear, just Han.

This was a logical equation extracted from your post, not my words.

Non cynical = trusting.
Non naive = discriminating in the placement of trust.
Experienced = has gone through a breach of trust.
Born-again chaste = healed from a breach of trust.

It is that last attribute, the healing... back to virgin skin.
Pain serves the purpose of teaching. Scars are mementos.
Virgin skin does not know pain.
The strong woman walks barefoot.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:36 pm

Satyr wrote:

My conscience is only burdened by consequences, not morals.

I don't believe that for a second, dear.

Quote :

Your enjoyments are common, and so you need not worry about a thing.

Is that so?

Quote :

Your mediocrity is consequence free.
Do you enjoy sipping tea, and going for long walks?
None of that interferes with your conscience, I trust.

What do you do, dear, when your pleasure causes pain on another? What do you do when the other is not a willing participant?

I love tea.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:41 pm

Phonee wrote:
I don't believe that for a second, dear.

Good.
And...who cares?

Phonee wrote:
Is that so?
Indubitably...

Phonee wrote:
Is that so
If the only pleasures you can indulge in, in excess, do not force you to consider the repercussions...then, my sweet, you are one dull creature.
So...yeah, have that extra bottle of wine, but do not go out driving, do not go out half-naked, do not have a man over...and so on....be free...cheers.  

Phonee wrote:
What do you do, dear, when your pleasure causes pain on another? What do you do when the other is not a willing participant?
What if?
Are you introducing morals into the equation, my sweet...or was that a sign of a hidden conscience, a secret Christian aesthetic?

Getting drunk every other night, gorging on pork loin, and fucking the neighbor's prepubescent son, is the limit of your pleasure?
How avant guarde of you...so modern.
A glutton?

Your brain is contained within the artifices mommy and daddy brought you up in.
Your definitions fall within those cultural, socially constructed, boundaries.
You've only overcome the guilt recently....by the tone of your posts. You feel emancipated from that childhood shame.    

Fuckin' hypocrite.

Have a biscuit.

Guilty pleasure...
I would fuck you from behind...pulling your head back using your hair...then blow my load on your face.
Before going to the kitchen to make me a sandwich, you would have to clean up, and thank me for the service.

Hygiene and gratitude are signs of civility.
I insist on them.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:58 pm

Imagine a nit-wit born and raised in modern excess, seeking the higher high, to deal with the numbness it produces....claiming to care only about the pleasure...and then demanding that the other's pleasure be dependent upon her consent. All the while pretending to be unburdened by conscience, but expecting that the other would.

Privilege, garcon!!!
One to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Satyr wrote:
 
I would fuck you from behind...pulling your head back using your hair..

Hey!!! that's my role!!
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:06 pm

You can lick up the leftovers.

Remember....excess?
Direct the concept back to your own actions.
All has a benefit and a cost.
You are, of course, to do as you please.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:15 pm

Yeah, well I'm going to see how far I can take it....

Read that in anyway you wish Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:17 pm

You do what you've got to do...and I will do what I've got to do.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:27 pm

I demand nothing, dear.
It is a challenge.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:27 am

Satyr wrote:

What if?
Are you introducing morals into the equation, my sweet...or was that a sign of a hidden conscience, a secret Christian aesthetic?

Quote :
Your brain is contained within the artifices mommy and daddy brought you up in.
Your definitions fall within those cultural, socially constructed, boundaries.

It isn't a hidden conscience, it is my own little set of "rights" and "wrongs" given to me by mommy and daddy.
My... definitions... are theirs. I carry their memetic legacy.

Those remarkable creatures, who reared this brute, psychopath, and saw fit to surround it with love.

Perhaps they should have yelled at me more, dogmatized me, made me fear them, scare me with scenarios of doom, so that I'd be a psychopath again when they turned away.

They didn't. They let me arrive to conclusions of my own. Thus I want to be right, as I understand right, not our of fear, or guilt. I want to be right, as I understand right, as a homage to my memories of their love.

...because I am a sentimental little woman so gosh darn cute, me.

Should probably say at this point that neither mommy nor daddy were ever christian. They're pagan...

I have not overcome my childhood teachings recently, or ever. I am fortunate to have them both alive, and to have been able to discuss our... definitions, as you call them... in great depth. I hope that I can always hold on to these definitions. Without them I am ... a psychopath.

It's not a very complex system. It is a very simple one. I am true to it and I bear no shame. I am conscious of my demeanor, and my conscience is unburdened.


This is the sort of information I typically leave out... too specific....but then I have to read 200 posts in the future making fun of christianism as though I was one. Put me to sleep old man.


Quote :
Getting drunk every other night, gorging on pork loin, and fucking the neighbor's prepubescent son, is the limit of your pleasure?
How avant guarde of you...so modern.
A glutton?

It doesn't please me to get drunk, dear. I like the use of my mind, feel naked without it, and it's so chilly here.
Drunkness and gluttony are the unfortunate consequences of a highly excitable palate.
These are low pleasures, though, dear. You know that. A dish's presentation and aroma are as important as its taste. The room you're in, the sounds you hear, the thoughts in your mind, all are as important as the taste.
And that's just a meal...
The limit of my pleasure is the limit of your imagination.

But enough about myself.
Let's talk about your image of me.
Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:25 am

phonee wrote:
It isn't a hidden conscience, it is my own little set of "rights" and "wrongs" given to me by mommy and daddy.
My... definitions... are theirs. I carry their memetic legacy.

Those remarkable creatures, who reared this brute, psychopath, and saw fit to surround it with love.
Sp sweet a wine could only have been fermented in a stressful environment.

phonee wrote:
...because I am a sentimental little woman so gosh darn cute, me.
How you want to protect the child in you.

phonee wrote:
Should probably say at this point that neither mommy nor daddy were ever christian. They're pagan...
then you have the potential to make the best mate.

phonee wrote:
I have not overcome my childhood teachings recently, or ever. I am fortunate to have them both alive, and to have been able to discuss our... definitions, as you call them... in great depth. I hope that I can always hold on to these definitions. Without them I am ... a psychopath.
Sweetie...it is I who is psychotic.
Do not take the spotlight off of my narcissism.

phonee wrote:
It's not a very complex system. It is a very simple one. I am true to it and I bear no shame. I am conscious of my demeanor, and my conscience is unburdened.
Conscience...reprimanding itself for not living up to its own ideals, its own expectations, its own projections of object/objective.

phonee wrote:
This is the sort of information I typically leave out... too specific....but then I have to read 200 posts in the future making fun of christianism as though I was one. Put me to sleep old man.
Only after I use you, dear.

phonee wrote:
These are low pleasures, though, dear. You know that. A dish's presentation and aroma are as important as its taste. The room you're in, the sounds you hear, the thoughts in your mind, all are as important as the taste.
And that's just a meal...
The limit of my pleasure is the limit of your imagination.
If only you can place them outside your mind.

phonee wrote:
But enough about myself.
Let's talk about your image of me.
Wink
A misunderstood flower, are you.
Let me p-luck you.
She lust me....she lusts me not.....she lust me....she lusts me not....
Ebb and flow.....in and out.....up and down....thrust and pull....and one, and two....

What would a pagan princess need to fully surrender?

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Sun May 11, 2014 4:42 pm

Lyssa wrote:
The awe of that first moment which we lock in our experience is only intensified again and again, every time we Re-turn to it when we turn around it, and we turn around it because it was so inspiring.

In my view, its the ones who fear that they have nothing more to give once they give, who feel empty, are the ones who fear like they have been Used-up and exhausted when they surrender.
Feminist independence masquerades as this insecurity, which they end up blaming the man for "using" them, "objectifying" them.
The fear that they become nothing but void, mundane objects when experienced once...
Independence amongst such modern feminists guises its victim status.

Quote :
Only insecure feminists would claim the one-time revelation in a surrender, the loss of mystery is the end of fun, happiness, the "excitement" of a relationship.
The end of seduction is experienced as self-loss.
When the chase and the lures become more thrilling and 'meaningful' in itself than the end purpose, surrender feels shameful, death of ego... the 'good part' is over... there is nothing to expect but disinterestedness from now on from the other - solution? Enjoy and discard them before they discard you. Hedonism. Momentariness. And this is what 'sampling' has become.

Feel vacuous inside and then blame or fear the other for objectifying you, taking you 'for granted'.

The discarding can also be accompanied with clinging.  I notice a lot of women keeping in touch with old boyfriends they have "discarded" so they can perpetuate a good, clean(albeit superficial) image of themselves(to themselves and to the outside world).  Discarding could be seen as ruthless, and that's not trendy.  Feminism promotes a shameless image of women that men shamelessly support because women's affection has become a commodity, it's an immediate narcotic to get through the day, it's also a way to feel like you're in the good graces of the system itself if you have a women's favor... Incidentally, to allow this mindset as a man is to kill the mystery of women, everything about her will become cheap and petty.  He'll slowly chip away at her for affection and she'll make the process as miserable as possible.

There seems to be a disconnect between "relationships" as an inherently dramatic messy affairs that all people go through and the more "serious" world of the system and progress... as if one was just a casual partner of the other.

Quote :
The sovereign huntress knows, when the awe and the seduction of her mystique disappears, when the pink dawn peels away, it gives way to A sun...
Awe can give way to beauty.

This only works, naturally, if a woman can actually intellectualize their own instincts... Or else it would probably seem like "work"... being tied down when she doesn't need to be, when she can let her self go and fall back into the loving arms of the system, and the men that she knows will always be there to feed her ego in the fallout of a failed relationship.

And what's this on collective scale compared to the awe and bliss of being in a position as a woman to always receive the collective advances of men shamelessly sacrificing themselves to win (overly) prized female affection.  All she needs to do to secure her position is maintain appearances.  "Look at how they destroy themselves just to get to me," she might say to herself, feel a personal sense of accomplishment and self-aggrandizement, and then turn around and speak against violence, play the victim, and collectively trend an image of herself as soft and receptive while drumming up her Independence and freedom of "choice"(to discard).  It's an essentially dishonest popular sentiment that lives on an uncomfortable politeness between the sexes, because everyone is fed the idea female affection is the saving grace of a day's hard work.  Maybe you could call it soft violence.

Women's contradictory nature also feeds on and easily absorbs male aggression which, in a soulless consumer system with no bottom, makes women seem like bottomless consumers because they take such a glorified position.  She's there to absorb the aggressive advances of male consumers by approving or disapproving the image he has bought and constructed to appeal to her.  And since things like sobriety and austerity are only valuable as side commodities, she's always unsatisfied with anything that isn't breaking new trends, that isn't flashy and mass appealing... because her "independence", her mobility, her feeling of being alive, confident and worthwhile(to herself and men), is entrenched in this trending.  "Oh, he's popular and speaks out against the system, even better, how complicated he must be"... "He speaks out against the system and remains on the fringe... avoid associating at all costs... he puts my value at risk... he puts life itself at risk."  Women thus want to avoid risk while being as "alive" as possible, whereas men must risk everything if they ever hope to be alive.

A man might say that she's "just a woman" and doesn't understand how infected her way of thinking is. She still "offers" the possibility of new life by virtue of being a woman, what matter is it how demeaning the means is to get it?  The idea of having to put on an incredible act as a man(playing not just the system but her sublimation of the system in her reactions) just to get close to her so you might share those precious rare unfiltered moments, is almost too much to ask.  But winning her over initially isn't the hardest part, or even something that he objects to... it's the anticipation of the inexhaustibly of her demanding nature that isn't limited by the larger culture... and that unless he recognizes an exceptionally strong inner constitution in her, he almost knows she's gonna "flip" at some point... And so the nerve-wracking tension begins to grate the soul because the distance created by an insatiable system(that she's helpless to) seems to become unresolvable... there are only small victories... an entire life could just be sacrificing himself while she unconsciously revenges herself on him(which he just has to take...even if he fights her wrath it it's only for show as far as she's concerned, for his benefit)... All just so he can spread his seed...
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon May 19, 2014 7:01 am

Quote :
"The whole of man's hunting endeavor must be understood as a symbolic, cultural, and social activity. Though he is a highly capable social predator on large, dangerous mammals, he is singularly without the nutritional necessity of eating meat. He is a polished runner and stalker who eats meat as a sacrament, and for whom bodily renewal by eating and mating are united religiously in the flesh. Hence his hunting and mating combine unusual behaviors.

The symbiotic interplay of the hunt and love, of predation and copulation, is a primal motif, surely preliterate, and older than the agricultural theme of the cycle of birth and death, regeneration from the decay of life, and the dead as a source of the living. The spear's interpenetration of the body and the flesh as the source of all new life are the iconography of venery —at once the pursuit of love and game.

Eating and marriage laws are therefore reciprocal and they may be regarded as springing from the same basic order or source.
The relationship between them does not depend on intellectual symbolism. Both have to do with the most profound of life's passions, the demonic moment of the kill and of orgasm. These two powerful expressions are related. Both lead to life and to death, which, like maleness and femaleness, represent a fundamental polarity.

This suggests in a somewhat poetic way the mature wisdom and health that shaped the totemic vision. The deranged are unable to feel either, or are obsessed with death or sex and incapable of unity. Feeling for the complementarity of the hunt and love (or death and sex) may have existed much earlier in human experience than its formulation as a religious scheme. The pair-bond between man and woman and the pursuit of large game entered human existence together in the prehistoric past. The bond was an intensified expression of pair preference, the repeated but temporary companionship of two particular individuals during the female's monthly oestrus. The hunt was a refinement of the casual pursuit of small game that happened to be at hand." [Paul Shepard, The Tender Carnivore]



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Quote :
"The human hunter in the field is not merely a predator, because of hundreds of centuries of experience in treating the woman-prey with love, which he turns back into the hunt proper.

The ecstatic consummation of this love is the killing itself. Formal consummation is eating. As all human hunters have always known, the kill must be eaten. Otherwise both are disgraced. Those who say, "Well, it is all right for primitive hunters to kill because they must do so to eat," are only half right. The prey must be eaten for ethical not nutritional value, in a kind of celebration.

On a superficial level, the meat is a relish that makes the main dish tolerable, a festive release from a routine of tubers and nuts. Symbolically, it is a re-enactment of the emergence of man from herbivorous ancestors and the dark of ignorance, as love between man and woman is a re-enactment of the discovery of love as a continuing bond, a passion engendering compassion and affection, prefiguring the feeling for and affirmation of other species and the world. This is one reason that the difference and otherness of the genders is important and "unisex" a perversion in a normal society and possibly an extreme perceptual adaptation in a stressed society needing to reduce its birth rate.

I have suggested that the carnivore whose attack is stopped by appeasement experiences a change of feeling. In courtship the appeaser is not a true prey but the human female. What then does she feel? Humility and adoration perhaps? Something has been added to the fear grimace with which a subordinate monkey allows itself to be mounted. Face-to-face copulation, as among humans, some higher apes, and probably extinct species of hominids, coincides with a new psychology. Sexual intercourse has become the most powerful imaginable experience of relatedness. One might almost say that it comes close to ceasing to be reproductive behavior (which could be taken care of much more simply with oestrus; fertilization once a year could be accomplished with one-fiftieth as much copulation). Supine in the act she may be, but the woman is more a partner and less an object. The male does not simply penetrate her; he is engulfed. He is also engulfed in the sacred cave, in the ceremonial confrontation of the symbolic gender of animal art.

The vast body of painting, engraving, and sculpture, of which the associated orations, dance, and ceremony are lost, does not document the origin of humans culture or the beginnings of art. They are part of the archives of a fully mature body of thought on the profound themes of human life." [Paul Shepard, The Tender Carnivore]

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Mon May 19, 2014 7:41 am

Food and water are easy to come by.
Sex is relatively cheap.
Killing is controlled and supervised.
Domination regulated.    

Man shifts his hunter-gatherer nature.

The gene shifts to the meme.
Gene tending towards a leveling-off, evolution merging, by reverting to the median.
Meme tending towards the superior/inferior hierarchy, with strong pressure to remain in harmony with the genetic reversion, which is artificially produced and maintained.  

Urbanization: living over Dunbar's numerical limits - the Christian inflating the numbers causing, as with economic, a spike in cost.

Cosmetics: manipulation of the apparent; the senses untrustworthy, requiring a more subtle sensuality.

Circadian Rhythms: Daylight Savings time shifts. Natural rhythms confused by human economics of production/consumption.Man living out of step with natural cycles.

Solipsism: self-referential, self-consciousnesses, slowly reducing the input of sensual data from disturbing its navel-gazing comforts - the me/me generation divided and conquered.
Art imitating art. Monstrosities expressing man's disillusionment.
 
Pathos: Obsessions with other people. People knowing people, who know people - networking.
People as an end, not a means. Social/emotional relationships confused for the world itself.
Using people to impress other people, so as to reach a personal ambition in relation to them.    

Academics: Philosophy as the debate over philosophy and philosophers. Talk about talking, thoughts about thinkers. The solipsistic loop.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue May 20, 2014 1:30 am

I have that same mole, on my left breast. Uncanny.
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue May 20, 2014 1:51 am

perpetualburn wrote:
A man might say that she's "just a woman" and doesn't understand how infected her way of thinking is. She still "offers" the possibility of new life by virtue of being a woman, what matter is it how demeaning the means is to get it? The idea of having to put on an incredible act as a man(playing not just the system but her sublimation of the system in her reactions) just to get close to her so you might share those precious rare unfiltered moments, is almost too much to ask.

Is it, really, such an incredible act?
Don't the tables ever turn?

And doesn't all of this acting fade when compared with the gesture of bearing your seed?
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue May 20, 2014 9:19 am

phoneutria wrote:
Leasy wrote:

From what I understand of Satyr, he would enjoy a fine red wine moderately. Nothing in excess. Excess would kill the taste, the experience.
He wants to experience it again, and so savours it in balance. Living lightly is about knowing how to discriminately enjoy a certain thing.  

From what I understand of you, your cynical weariness has already decided that no moment, no experience will last in its uniqueness for more than a certain time, after which things get reified. So you use that cynicism to justify your tasting wine today, juice tom... as equally unique experiences. You do this because you have already concluded that you can't taste that wine again, do justice with it with the same conscience as the first time, the first awe of it. So you flit from one to the next to the next... because your conscience IS burdened by experiencing the same thing over again as you've said so yourself.

Is there a difference, really?
Couldn't you, instead of saying that my conscience is burdened by experiencing the same thing over again, say that that experiencing the same thing over again would kill the taste, the experience?


"He "lives lightly" because he doesn't allow burdens to his conscience.
I "am light" because my conscience is not burdened by that which I enjoy."

Those were your statements from the point of view of what you enjoy, and therefore from the point of view of what you cannot enjoy to preserve that remarkable memory, then its logical to phrase that as "conscience Is burdened".

Quote :
Once I've found "The Wine", the best wine ever tasted, one that puts all other wines on the floor, should I just drink it every day until I am sick of it?
I would rather retain the remarkable memory of that taste.

Didn't I say, "From what I understand of Satyr, he would enjoy a fine red wine moderately. Nothing in excess. Excess would kill the taste, the experience."

Think I have already pointed out on the either/or; just because one proposition doesn't hold, doesn't mean the extreme other is immediately implied.


Quote :

So for this thread...

Leasy wrote:
The awe of that first moment which we lock in our experience is only intensified again and again, every time we Re-turn to it when we turn around it, and we turn around it because it was so inspiring.

How long can you keep on inspiring, when you are on a 24h inspiring shift?

There's that saying, when a woman has nothing to offer and so her devotion becomes a duty, then that is a piece of vulgarity.

So is the other end - when you want to do nothing but offer, its turning oneself into a productivity;

"The desire to create continually is vulgar and betrays jealousy, envy, ambition. If one is something one really does not need to make anything -and one nonetheless does very much. There exists above the productive man a yet higher species." [N.]

Quote :

Or, does the Sovereign surrender to a man, and then goes on a vacation?
Oh... am I being cynical?
Wink


Every surrender is a new discovery, new possibility, new consciousness that now pulls you to surrender into the same orbit with a different valence again.
Honesty makes mystery possible.
The more you know, the more variables come into play again.
Every washing wave churns up a different depth of the sea, not simply a to and fro; the Labyrinth continually shifts, forming and reforming... evolving...
"We step and do not step into the same rivers; we are and are not." [Heraclitus]


Quote :

Quote :

Your hedonism needs novelty. It is as you say not burdened by whatever you enjoy because only experiencing that authentic momentariness, that "now" counts, doesn't matter "what" you indulge in, as long as you are able to be true to that moment. That cynical weariness is used to justify indulging in "whatever" as everything gets reified beyond a certain moment.

From what, exactly, do you gather that "what" I indulge in doesn't matter?
When I say that I am not burdened by that which I enjoy, I mean nothing other than my sense of taste is in alignment with my sense of moral.

I was referring to your remark on blonde, brunette, etc. all being equally enjoyable:

"are you saying one cannot like both thw blonde and the brunette?"

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue May 20, 2014 9:20 am

phoneutria wrote:
Quote :
Nice convolution of words and intentions.
"She is not naive, thus she will surrender trust when she finds one that is deserving of it." is the opp. of what you had said, which was - to be non-cynical was to be naive immediately. "She is not naive" is Not what you had said, the opp.
I am neither naive, nor cynical dear, just Han.

This was a logical equation extracted from your post, not my words.

No, I'm merely pointing out, that they were indeed your words in a chat conversation where you Originally had remarked I was naive, and then after my post explaining my view, you changed intention and presented it now as she is not naive, etc.

Quote :

It is that last attribute, the healing... back to virgin skin.
Pain serves the purpose of teaching. Scars are mementos.
Virgin skin does not know pain.

Teachings are meant to transform and not be clung to. Knowledge must take birth out of torture.
And every knowledge is a growth, a power.
Mementos are signposts on a road that does not disconnect the past as a bygone vestige but originates/inaugurates into the future.
The past is not a behind, but a continual flowing that sur-passes and that we meet and encounter ahead of us.
Virgin skin is the pain of a continuous metamorphoses.

Quote :
The strong woman walks barefoot.

The strong woman walks barefoot without flinching, and so carves a path by her walking.

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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Tue May 20, 2014 9:20 am

perpetualburn wrote:


Quote :
The sovereign huntress knows, when the awe and the seduction of her mystique disappears, when the pink dawn peels away, it gives way to A sun...
Awe can give way to beauty.

This only works, naturally, if a woman can actually intellectualize their own instincts... Or else it would probably seem like "work"... being tied down when she doesn't need to be, when she can let her self go and fall back into the loving arms of the system, and the men that she knows will always be there to feed her ego in the fallout of a failed relationship.

Then she is no sovereign is she.

I think the problem is in confusing self-cultivation with attaching interests and inclinations like crusts upon oneself, augmenting oneself in this way, grafting them on. And any intimate surrender then leads to the discomfort of being objectified because one fears, the shells will fall off one by one, and the other would see the void - the so-called "death of mystery".
This is also a serious problem in the sense when your coral-reefs do not form of their own internal necessity, natural internal or external pressures, holding every facet of you like one single Logical continuity (you touch one place, and it affects at the other ends),, then the self opens up into role-play. Every aspect a role to perform like work that you leave at work and do not bring home...  so instead of continuous gradations of differential intensities that you experience self wholesomely, there is an internal role-objectification. At place A you are x, at place B you are y, etc. Modern feminism is from the weariness to protract into a single bow held together by a dictating logic. Every part clamours for satisfaction and this leads to a hedonistic lifestyle... to do justice to every side. Surrendering then becomes an injustice to something or the other. You feel vilified, neglected, repressed... and the self-disatisfaction and the blame game begins.
Flexible/fluid constitutions with the correct balance I believe grow simultaneously in their different directions because of a single pulse so that a student deep into academics is Also a good citizen is Also a sensible daughter, friend, mate, etc. Like a lightning held together but forking off... I think the word "balance of roles" is a modern concept of self-jugglery to show adaptiveness,, but to me adaptiveness is like again Protracting... as much tension as possible.
Synethesizing than splintering into facets.


Quote :

A man might say that she's "just a woman" and doesn't understand how infected her way of thinking is. She still "offers" the possibility of new life by virtue of being a woman, what matter is it how demeaning the means is to get it?  The idea of having to put on an incredible act as a man(playing not just the system but her sublimation of the system in her reactions) just to get close to her so you might share those precious rare unfiltered moments, is almost too much to ask.  But winning her over initially isn't the hardest part, or even something that he objects to... it's the anticipation of the inexhaustibly of her demanding nature that isn't limited by the larger culture... and that unless he recognizes an exceptionally strong inner constitution in her, he almost knows she's gonna "flip" at some point... And so the nerve-wracking tension begins to grate the soul because the distance created by an insatiable system(that she's helpless to) seems to become unresolvable... there are only small victories... an entire life could just be sacrificing himself while she unconsciously revenges herself on him(which he just has to take...even if he fights her wrath it it's only for show as far as she's concerned, for his benefit)... All just so he can spread his seed...


I know.

But what did Zarathustra say about the heavy crown of thorns being replaced by the joy of rose-wreaths...  life was Always about living dangerously, precariously...

"Even love of life is still possible - only one loves differently. It is like the love for a woman who gives us doubts . . .B ut the attraction of everything problematic, the delight in an X, is so great in highly spiritual, spiritualized people such as these that this delight flares up like bright embers again and again over all the distress of what is problematic, over all the danger of uncertainty, and even over the jealousy of the lover. We know a new happiness..."
[N., JW, Pref.3]


Everything is in the Attitude and the supporting spirit with which you choose to approach or handle a thing... it takes one degree shift of a temperature to feel the whole world in a radically different colour.
As I always say, the onus is always on us.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation Wed May 21, 2014 3:39 pm

"He "lives lightly" because he doesn't allow burdens to his conscience."

Meaning that he does not engage in activities which would burden his conscience, whether by not desiring them, or by denying his desire.

I "am light" because my conscience is not burdened by that which I enjoy."

Meaning that I do not engage in activities which would burden my conscience, because I don't desire them.

The "lightness" being in the distinction that I do not deny my desires... up until the most recent years, at least.

You may find that old goat and I are not all that different.


Quote :
Think I have already pointed out on the either/or; just because one proposition doesn't hold, doesn't mean the extreme other is immediately implied.

Quote :
There's that saying, when a woman has nothing to offer and so her devotion becomes a duty, then that is a piece of vulgarity.

So is the other end - when you want to do nothing but offer, its turning oneself into a productivity;

"The desire to create continually is vulgar and betrays jealousy, envy, ambition. If one is something one really does not need to make anything -and one nonetheless does very much. There exists above the productive man a yet higher species." [N.]


It is as you beautifully said, my dear:


Quote :
Submission in itself doesn't involve objectification per se; its the Man-Animals as just Stomach who make it so.

As I banalize the experience of wine consumption by chugging it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, I become an unappreciative stomach. I consume and excrete until I become desensitized to every nuance of flavor.

Similarly, it is not my desire to create continuously, but the expectation that I should do so, from the mind of the animal to which I have surrendered to, that vulgarizes my creative effort.


Quote :

Every surrender is a new discovery, new possibility, new consciousness that now pulls you to surrender into the same orbit with a different valence again.

... lovely theory...

Do take into account, dear, the nature of the beast.


(take this as a metaphor)


Quote :
Honesty makes mystery possible.
The more you know, the more variables come into play again.
Every washing wave churns up a different depth of the sea, not simply a to and fro; the Labyrinth continually shifts, forming and reforming... evolving...
"We step and do not step into the same rivers; we are and are not." [Heraclitus]

It is not honesty that makes mystery possible. It is faith.
The belief, sometimes agains all reason, of things unseen. In this case, the believe that more variables are ever to continue to pour. That in the course of the life of a beach, every particle of sand will not touch every molecule of water. That we are not organically predispose to need ever more, and satisfy less and less. That labyrinths are magical Smile


Quote :

No, I'm merely pointing out, that they were indeed your words in a chat conversation where you Originally had remarked I was naive, and then after my post explaining my view, you changed intention and presented it now as she is not naive, etc.

They are my words still dear. You are naive... or should I say, faithful.

Disregard my words when considering this here "convolution of words", as they are a logical extraction from your post. My humble attempt to understand your position, my love.


Quote :

Teachings are meant to transform and not be clung to. Knowledge must take birth out of torture.
And every knowledge is a growth, a power.
Mementos are signposts on a road that does not disconnect the past as a bygone vestige but originates/inaugurates into the future.
The past is not a behind, but a continual flowing that sur-passes and that we meet and encounter ahead of us.

Tell me, dear... this chaste virgin, who is able to experience more, for she can make herself surrender over and over again, and then renew herself furiously when the wounds form, so that she is chaste again, and able to surrender again...
Does she like pain?


Quote :
Virgin skin is the pain of a continuous metamorphoses.

It is the poison that the caterpillar eats, what makes the monarch unpalatable to predation.
However, the wrong poison kills the caterpillar, or damages it so that it can never become a monarch.
And it is that profound need for the right poison that has caused the monarch to become endangered, for if she does not find it, she does not lay her eggs.
And so she searches... earth and sky...
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PostSubject: Re: Surrender and Sexual Predation

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