Know Thyself

Nothing in Excess
 
HomePortalFAQMemberlistSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:28 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Epicurus had a 'Garden'.

I'm sure all he ever had was spontaneously grown weeds.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:50 pm

Satyr wrote:
Suddenly hedonism has acquired the motives of Hellenic asceticism.

Suddenly??
Because you have no idea of what hedonism is, are you suddenly perplexed?
Hellenic asceticism IS hedonism.
And you ARE an idiot.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:01 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Its purely your ignorance when everything is reduced to pleasure, you deny that Honour or Beauty would still be what it is. Reduction is the doing away with distinctions silly. 

Is that what happens when you reduce everything to need, too, or does that just happen to pleasure?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:10 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Pleasure does not determine my tastes.

She doesn't like what she likes, she likes what she is supposed to like.
What a good girl you are.
Back to top Go down
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:47 am

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
And I said as long as reality doesn't interfere and slam him with repercussions... a hedonist will f--- and eat indiscriminately until reality hits him with poison or he contracts AIDS...

Why would a hedonist eat or fuck indiscriminately knowing what the consequences of his actions would be?

If the pursuit of pleasure is the only end, then he would continue indulging indiscriminately until reality makes him aware of the cost of his indiscrimination.


Quote :

Quote :
Its purely your ignorance when everything is reduced to pleasure, you deny that Honour or Beauty would still be what it is. Reduction is the doing away with distinctions silly.
Dont play word games just to save face.
Step outside of yourself.

Hedonism is false because other values do not reduce to pleasure. But, within pleasure, hedonists can distinguish between kinds, types, levels---such as almost every hedonist actually does. Sorry, your simplistic stick figure is ignorance.

Your own ignorance is appalling, you might as well call everybody you cant comprehend an idiot and enjoy your eargasm,,, and if it were only that simplistic, then as recorded in the Stanford Encyp. of Philosophy, Aristotle would not have felt a need to critique hedonism for the same reasons as I do, and the only way it is countered, is by a move called "Adjustment" of this, this, or that...
Which means *because the hedonist's reduction does away with means of value-distinction, clauses in the form of objection-responses had to be introduced to correct that *within the original definition of hedonism as pleasure being the "only" intrinsic good;

Quote :
"Philosophers commonly distinguish between psychological hedonism and ethical hedonism. Psychological hedonism is the view that humans are psychologically constructed in such a way that we exclusively desire pleasure. Ethical hedonism is the view that our fundamental moral obligation is to maximize pleasure or happiness. Ethical hedonism is most associated with the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus (342-270 BCE.) who taught that our life's goal should be to minimize pain and maximize pleasure. In fact, all of our actions should have that aim:

"We recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us, and from pleasure we begin every act of choice and avoidance, and to pleasure we return again, using the feeling as the standard by which we judge every good."
[Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Given that,

Quote :
"Aristotle (Book x, ch. 3) argued that some pleasure is disgraceful or base. Brentano (1889/1969: 90) argued that “pleasure in the bad” both lacks value and has disvalue. Moore (sec. 56) expressed similar thoughts in a bracingly concrete manner by imagining the pleasures of “perpetual indulgence in bestiality” and claiming them to be not good but bad. Self-destructive or masochistic pleasure, pleasure with a non-existent or false object, and contra-deserved pleasure are some other targets of insufficiency objections to hedonism about value.

Hedonists can respond in various ways to insufficiency objections. These are canvassed below.

A second hedonist response is to accept that the insufficiency objector has indeed found a case that is insufficient for value, but then to claim that it is not an instance of pleasure. This sort of response is underpinned by the hedonist's insistence on the wider thought that anything insufficient for value is not pleasure."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Quote :
To a hedonist who finds pleasure in f--- itself, doesn't matter what cow it is.

No, to a decadent it doesn't matter if you fuck a fat cow...

Quote :
Pleasure does not determine my tastes.


Degrees and Ranks.

To a Master, the hedonist is a decadent; to the hedonist, a certain kind of hedonist is a decadent.


Quote :

Why do you put ketchup on french fries?

Is it your will to power?

There's a difference between doing something *for* pleasure, and doing something *from* pleasure, and I have already distinguished that difference in the Aesthetics thread.
To me, pleasure is an effect of a certain way of living (self-assertion), in willing, in the consciousness of power, and not an "innate good", not a causal - only an epiphenomenon.  
Consciousness itself is only a means, not an ends, and so reasoning too is not an ends in itself for me. It is a *means-to. Arresting that infinite regress - means as an ends, is a nihilism.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*


Last edited by Lyssa on Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Mo
Lamb
avatar

Gender : Male Aries Posts : 276
Join date : 2013-02-02
Age : 34
Location : Northerly

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:49 am

Lyssa wrote:
If the pursuit of pleasure is the only end, then he would continue indulging indiscriminately until reality makes him aware of the cost of his indiscrimination

Yes, I think you're right... the hedonist discriminates because he knows the consequences of his actions, and he measures those in terms of pleasure/pain. This isn't unique to a hedonist. If the pursuit of power is your only end, then you will continue indulging in power-plays indiscriminately until reality makes you aware of the cost of your indiscrimination.

Quote :
Which means *because the hedonist's reduction does away with means of value-distinction, clauses in the form of objection-responses had to be introduced to correct that *within the original definition of hedonism as pleasure being the "only" intrinsic good;

One of the problems with hedonism is that other values cannot be reduced just to their pleasure-value, without violence to those values---without mistaking what they are. Also, when you try to reduce all values to ‘pleasure’, you have to expand the boundaries of the term ‘pleasure’ to encompass soo much that it renders the term 'pleasure' itself vague and meaningless. These are fair criticisms. I’d apply the same criticism to anyone who reduced all values to ‘power’, or ‘evolutionary fitness’, or any other single value. This is a problem with reductionism in general, not just hedonism.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:34 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Your own ignorance is appalling, you might as well call everybody you cant comprehend an idiot and enjoy your eargasm,,, and if it were only that simplistic, then as recorded in the Stanford Encyp. of Philosophy, Aristotle would not have felt a need to critique hedonism for the same reasons as I do...


Are you familiar with this text by Aristotle, dear?
Aristotle does not provide a critique of hedonism, but a defense. He argues that some "pleasure is disgraceful or base", only to then demonstrate how that is not a objection to hedonism.
He actually criticizes negative views on pleasure so harshly that he aaaalllmost admits that pleasure is the supreme good.
You should check it out.

I can find it and post it for you, if you want me to. Then you can highlight the parts you agree with, and the ones you don't.

Wink
Back to top Go down
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:48 pm

Tiny twat,

You're wrong like usual. When, the fuck, are you ever right? In fact, here's a little hint. Just start thinking the exact opposite as you normally do. This ought to increase the odds and probability that within all the stupid shit you speak, you'll actually say something correct by accident. Because you sure as shit aren't going to get there on your own.

Now let me hold your hand and show you how to think a bit.

We go to a restaurant, eat a delicious steak dinner with some delicious cheesecake dessert. We're full. Do we continue stuffing our face, even though we're full? Do we continue to shove food down our throats like a fat cow? No, we don't, because we're not decadent hedonists. If we were hedonists, then we would claim that the dinner is the point of our existence. And there is nothing else than this. Eating a good meal is the best life has to offer. And we would apply this logic elsewhere.

Like morality. "If it feels good, do it, why hesitate?"

But we don't. We don't do everything that feels good. And we probably should not do everything that feels good. Maybe stealing feels good, does that mean, do it? To a hedonist, yes.

If our stomachs are full, do we continue gorging ourselves? To a decadent fat fuck, yes, we do.

So we are neither hedonist nor decadent. And if you become either then I'm going to kick your fat ass to the curb, biooooootch.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:08 pm

Idiot.
Back to top Go down
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:53 pm

Shut up and kiss me, tiny twat.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:51 pm

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
If the pursuit of pleasure is the only end, then he would continue indulging indiscriminately until reality makes him aware of the cost of his indiscrimination

Yes, I think you're right... the hedonist discriminates because he knows the consequences of his actions, and he measures those in terms of pleasure/pain.

And *because* he discriminates in terms of pleasure/pain, and wills to maximize his pleasure, whether that pleasure is pursued in terms of power, beauty, excellence, f---ing cows, he continues to live in *his* 'discriminated' reality that is least painful and brings him the sensation of maximum pleasure, 5 mins. or 5 years doesn't matter.

When discrimination itself is not an objective assessment, but a 'pleasuring oneself', then his reality is skewed, cut off from the sensation of pain, need, suffering, and he indulges in the pleasurable act itself.

Therefore he is a decadent.


Quote :

Quote :
Which means *because the hedonist's reduction does away with means of value-distinction, clauses in the form of objection-responses had to be introduced to correct that *within the original definition of hedonism as pleasure being the "only" intrinsic good;

One of the problems with hedonism is that other values cannot be reduced just to their pleasure-value, without violence to those values---without mistaking what they are. Also, when you try to reduce all values to ‘pleasure’, you have to expand the boundaries of the term ‘pleasure’ to encompass soo much that it renders the term 'pleasure' itself vague and meaningless. These are fair criticisms. I’d apply the same criticism to anyone who reduced all values to ‘power’, or ‘evolutionary fitness’, or any other single value. This is a problem with reductionism in general, not just hedonism.


No, the generalization doesn't apply since life IS suffering, need,, and pleasure is the satiation of this need through the positing of whatever is fulfilling - god, beauty, power, etc.

A hedonist discriminates by *already* moralizing pleasure is good in terms of pleasure/pain. Get it?
A hedonist by definition is one who posits pleasure as The Only innate good.
This makes him a decadent and his way of life an inferior one in the values of the Master who affirms reality for what it is.

And for the nth time, the Master's will-to-power is not a *FOR* pleasure, but a *from*.


_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Mo
Lamb
avatar

Gender : Male Aries Posts : 276
Join date : 2013-02-02
Age : 34
Location : Northerly

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:33 pm

Lyssa wrote:
And *because* he discriminates in terms of pleasure/pain, and wills to maximize his pleasure, whether that pleasure is pursued in terms of power, beauty, excellence, f---ing cows, he continues to live in *his* 'discriminated' reality that is least painful and brings him the sensation of maximum pleasure, 5 mins. or 5 years doesn't matter.

Yes, it clearly does...
A hedonist will act to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. (They are not likely to do things that give them very brief pleasure, and a lifetime of pain. That would be maximizing pain, obviously).

Quote :
Therefore he is a decadent.

A person is decadent if they get pleasure from what harms them. A hedonist who does not is clearly not decadent.

--Imagine someone (a hedonist) who gets pleasure from reading great literature, learning an instrument, making art, having conversations with interesting people, etc. Or, maybe they get pleasure from raising a family, watching and helping their offspring grow into their selves, etc. They get pleasure out of their own accomplishments, health, exercise of their natural abilities, or when thinking about their experiences and about how they have lived.

If the only criticism you have of a hedonist is that they must like numbing themselves with drinking, drugs, avoidance, etc---(btw, things that tend to cause greater pain within a life as a whole)---then that's your own ignorance, and it's a criticism of you, not hedonism. That criticism exposes the critic's own decadence.

And this point, why don't you just try slipping into one of the criticisms of hedonism that I've already given you? --They're pretty good...

Quote :
No, the generalization doesn't apply since life IS suffering, need,, and pleasure is the satiation of this need..

One person can say that life is suffering/pain, and that pleasure is just the reduction in degree of suffering/pain. Another person can say that life is health/pleasure, and that pain is just the reduction in degree of health/pleasure. The difference is just an emotional/psychological one, not a conceptual one.

For example, I don't really care whether you think tallness is the absence of shortness, or whether you think shortness is the absence of tallness. You are free to have that conversation with whoever you like, other than me.

Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15978
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 52
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:09 am

 Twisted Evil 
Perspectivism come to save the day...

Hyperborean Heritage wrote:
The common manimal reduces existence to the sensation.
Now everything can be hedonism, even pain, if it offers that numbness to existence.

One moment it is physical pleasure, then he sacrifices it for ideological pleasure, then he changes it to moral pleasure, then converts it to intellectual pleasure.
Anything that reduces the sense of existence, or is experienced as release of energies or a diminishing of need/suffering, is placed on the forefront...it becomes THE object/objective.

Sex, can now become only about pleasure...detached from its procreative evolutionary purpose...and raping little children loses its shameful component.
Whores can feel proud, and sluts free in their freedom from anything beyond the feeling, the sensation, the emotion.

Good, Strong, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Power, Beauty, Self, One, all words describing the same absent absolute.

Each defining the individual striving towards it as an object/objective.

Pleasure = diminishment of need, a partial and temporary alleviation of the consciousness of existence.
Need = consciousness of Flux, a temporal attrition on an ordering/becoming emergent unity.
Suffering/Pain = need left unsatiated, the increase in stress, as the unity begins losing cohesion.

Any decadent mind can make it his or her end.

Maybe we can reduce all of western Christian history to the pursuit of pleasure, and, why not, science, and the scientific method to masturbation.
Morality = pleasure.
Good feels good.
All morality is hedonistic.

Discovery feels good so why not, call it hedonism?

What the hell, what does it matter when one can use any word to define the absent absolute?

Let's call it Bob and say the end is BOB.

The hedonist-decadent puts the sensation of reduced need on a pedestal, to avoid the reality of existence.
Then he can act, with only himself as the central actor.

Everything evaporates before his sensations and personal interests.
Porn is a perfect example of making sex an end in itself....with no repercussion, no procreative outcome...no risk, no costs....fornicating for the sake of fornicating...for the orgasm.

No values, no principles, no nobility, no consideration for the next generation...nothing but a manimal pretending to be something enlightened.
Decadent minds reduce all down to their level...because there they are most comfortable.
And when they are exposed they cover it all up with words.

Zombies only know the sensation of feeding.
Vampires only of the sensation of drinking blood.

Like animals, and manimals...it does not matter what the source of their pleasure is, just as long as it satisfied a need.

Then pleasure is one END, amongst many...and long-term postponed gratification is also hedonism, and whatever reduces need has pleasure as its END.
When a decadent superficial degenerate realizes how shallow his position is, pleasure as an END, with no other considerations...then he will fumble to give it an intellectual depth, by including factors other than pleasure, such as health, symmetry, long-term considerations.

Suddenly a primal vulgarity becomes something profound, and no matter what you do you are a hedonist.

Negroes are true hedonists, because they are the most primal.

These same degenerates will then claim to be above animals.

If pleasure offers us immediate gratification, by satisfying our interests, why think long-term about the possible repercussions of protecting a retard from dying a natural death, or helping an infertile couple from acquiring the precious child that will bring them so much pleasure?

Nietzsche meant to say Will to Pleasure....
And Dawkins really wanted to say the hedonist gene.
And Jesus really said I am the son of Priapus, come here to give you pleasure, before Paul changed it around.

Suddenly hedonism has acquired the motives of Hellenic asceticism.
In a day or two, it will also claim a moral high-ground, perhaps.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Anfang

avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 2240
Join date : 2013-01-23
Age : 34
Location : CET

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:46 am

What I took from this, from what I've read -

Life is not about pleasure nor pain.
Pain can spur us to act and pleasure can soothe us and offer rest.
But it does not provide guidance on how to act and which part to rest.
That emergent will springs from the self and is beyond pleasure and pain.
To seek to align and thereby reduce it to pleasure and pain, is to limit the self.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15978
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 52
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:05 am

No need/suffering, no pleasure is possible.
And no the reverse is not also true.
Why?
Because suffering requires no pleasure to be possible.
I can suffer for a lifetime, without once feeling pleasure, until death saves me from the sensation.
Pleasure, on the other hand, requires need/suffering, to negate, to be sensed as this relieving distraction from it.

Animated matter (life) only makes sense in relation to inanimate matter.
Inanimate matter requires no animated matter to exist.

Life/Death, like suffering/pleasure, are degrees of animation, once animated matter comes about in relation to inanimate matter.
Life/Death only make sense in relation to animated matter.

Suffering/Pleasure only make sense in relation to a conscious becoming, where need is how it maintains itself intact within an unconscious world.
In order for there to be a sensation of suffering/pleasure, needs must be met.
When they are not, the organism, self-organization, deteriorates towards suffering/pain before it perishes returning to a state of unconsciousness.
But, if needs are not met pleasure is not the easy, outcome, because satisfying needs, before they rise to the degree of suffering/pain, requires effort, willfulness.

But the rule is inanimate matter, which may or may not become animated.
Therefore, there is no psychological disposition here, if objectivity is the goal, and not placating cowardice.

Anfang wrote:
What I took from this, from what I've read -

Life is not about pleasure nor pain.
Pain can spur us to act and pleasure can soothe us and offer rest.
But it does not provide guidance on how to act and which part to rest.
That emergent will springs from the self and is beyond pleasure and pain.
To seek to align and thereby reduce it to pleasure and pain, is to limit the self.

Ah...so in the idea that life, being ordering/becoming, with no absolute order or being, being possible, in an environment in Flux, you do not see how the sensation of need would be the sensation of this state?

The key here is effort/stress.

Need, increasing to what man calls suffering/pain, requires no effort - the heart beat, breathing mechanism, autoimmune system, metabolic rates being effort.
Pleasure, as the decrease in the sensation of existing requires effort, to be possible...and more effort to become probable.

Now, the only way around this is for some coward hedonist to call effort/stress, a pleasure, in effect turning everything that promises, hints, alludes, acts, feels, thinks at pleasure as being pleasing.

And by the way....maximizing pleasure follows the old rule:
"Better one in the hand than two in the bush"

An ascetic prefers to go without rather than to settle for second-best.
But the coward hedonist will make this hedonism, as well, because now the sensation of self-maintenance, empowerment, growth, is the end in itself - the feeling is the end; it's not the interpretation, sensation of the end, but the end itself.

One who is interested in maximizing pleasure will not suffer self-restraint in the hopes that one day, later, at some uncertain point in time, a higher pleasure will come about.
A hedonist, if he is honest and not a coward, will admit that fucking 100 fat ugly girls, which are more reliable, or probable, sources of pleasure, is maximizing pleasure potential, rather than waiting for that super-model that may or may not show up, and that may or may not want to pleasure you.

Because it's about the pleasure itself, and not how healthy the source looks.
No desire to reproduce, sex is only about the orgasm. It would not matter what the genetic quality of the pleasure source is, since it is ONLY about the pleasure.  

Maximizing earning potentials is about settling for the lower, easier to get, paying job, rather than waiting for that high paying job to materialize.
That's pragmatic maximization, not naive romantic idealism.
Maximizing investment returns is going for the more certain, reliable, investment rather than the more risky and uncertain, yet promising higher rates of return, one.  

Certain...uncertain.  
If pleasure is your only goal then you go for the certain source of pleasure rather than daydream about some coming uncertain, greater one.

Hedonism is not Asceticism....but by the end of this thread you might be convinced that all is about hedonism, because at this point all life can be described as pain avoiding, and every idea promises some pleasure... and every action is called pleasing.

I also feel pleasure when defecating...so I defecate not necessarily to get rid of toxins from my body, but for the pleasure of it.
See, the end goal is the sensation defecating makes me feel, and not the biological purpose of defecating.
Maximizing pleasure would mean shitting my brains out.

Therefore, the universe is man's pleasure palace.
Enjoy.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:11 am

Hedonists are obviously closer to animal than "human". Although sheeple like Mo will obviously claim to be human. It's too predictable, like a common animal, to go from one pleasure to the next and call that the reason or purpose of life itself.

It's a simple philosophy, rationalization, and justification for a simple mind.

I think hedonists, and the promotion thereof, sexpose the minds behind it.

Mooooooooooo is hereby guilty as charged. He represents those on ILP perfectly. They cannot think "beyond" pleasure. Life is only about maximizing pleasure, tied in with liberalism, as long as we aren't imposing on other people's pleasure. How do liberal hedonists, egalitarians and utilitarians, justify themselves?

Ignorance is bliss. Their pleasure is built on somebody else's pain, halfway across the world.

Out of sight, out of mind. These pieces of shit don't know, and don't care to know, where their pleasure comes from.

Usually one man's pleasure is another man's pain.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Anfang

avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 2240
Join date : 2013-01-23
Age : 34
Location : CET

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:38 am

I see it like this -
The experience of pain/suffering and pleasure alone does not provide growth, not even for an animal. If an animal were to live in an environment with a great surplus and easy living conditions, compared to its natural habitat then that animal would, following its pleasure/pain motivations, deteriorate in its strengths and capabilities.

Modern man is an example of that.
Pleasure and pain on their own don't seem to be enough. Something is missing.

Quote :
Life is not about pleasure nor pain.

It makes more sense to say - It's not about maximizing any of the two.
Not about idealizing any of the two.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15978
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 52
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:42 am

Nobody is idealizing suffering.
Suffering is a fact man avoids, as all life does, automatically.

All life is organizing, in the Flux.
Flux is a fact, not an ideal.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:32 am

Christians purport to idealize suffering, since their lord and savior "suffered for the sake of all mankind".

Hedonism does not mesh well with Christianity, since the Christian's pleasure and rewards are in the afterlife, it's not supposed to take place while you're living. Christians frown on hedonism for this reason.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:34 am

Also hedonism was frowned upon in communism, if one communist had a surplus and luxury, then others would covet that and seek to destroy that "inequality".

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Anfang

avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 2240
Join date : 2013-01-23
Age : 34
Location : CET

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:37 am

Satyr wrote:
Nobody is idealizing suffering.
Suffering is a fact man avoids, as all life does, automatically.

All life is organizing, in the Flux.
Flux is a fact, not an ideal.

I agree about the hedonists maximizing pleasure -
In the dichotomy of pleasure and pain; All suffering which is endured is only endured because of the thought of increased pleasure at a later time. And if it's not pleasure at a later point in time on a conscious level then it's on a sub-conscious level and if it's not that then the suffering is not really suffering but in some way a pleasure to the organism. No matter what, it's always viewed through the lens of pleasure/suffering as an opposing push and pull and the individual is supposed to maximize pleasure.

Life, growth, happens in between extremes.

I don't know about the life is trying to avoid suffering. Yes and No.
Too much suffering usually leads to atrophy, same goes for pleasure but successful avoidance entails that the threshold for suffering is being continuously lowered because the organism weakens.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:22 pm

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
And *because* he discriminates in terms of pleasure/pain, and wills to maximize his pleasure, whether that pleasure is pursued in terms of power, beauty, excellence, f---ing cows, he continues to live in *his* 'discriminated' reality that is least painful and brings him the sensation of maximum pleasure, 5 mins. or 5 years doesn't matter.

Yes, it clearly does...
A hedonist will act to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. (They are not likely to do things that give them very brief pleasure, and a lifetime of pain. That would be maximizing pain, obviously).

And therefore because he seeks to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, and all his actions and reasonings are so pre-informed, he lives sheltered from reality, and this avoidance of pain to ultimately be able to enjoy the pleasure only, live a pleasurable life, makes him a decadent in the eyes of the master, and so 5 mins. or years is irrelevant.

Quote :

Quote :
Therefore he is a decadent.

A person is decadent if they get pleasure from what harms them. A hedonist who does not is clearly not decadent.

To the hedonist who thinks of pleasure in terms of 5 years, the hedonist who thinks in terms of 5 mins. is a decadent.

To the master who sees the hedonist as a slave to his sensations is a decadent per se.

The Stanford link and Aristotle himself only argue for what would be a long lasting pleasure, without critiquing being ruled by pleasure per se, and so degrees of hedonism come to the fore, and becomes a sub-subject, while the premise of hedonism remains untouched.
To a master, what can it matter if the highest good was a pleasure that lasted 5 years or 5 mins., when taking anything as an ends in itself is a nihilistic self-retardation, a "human" reduced to the sensation of pleasure is standing for the statement he wants life to be a relief. "Life is/should be a relief" is the statement he is affirming - and that is nihilistic self-denial and life-denial. The hatred for life as it is - the drive towards ordering in a universe of chaos.

Do you understand??? Do you get what you are advocating?

Step outside of yourself.

Hedonism is not 'that' noble asceticism where endurance of pain and building tolerance produces a consciousness of power [experienced as pleasure], of what one can do without - which is the opposite of that hedonism which avoids life *to* indulge in pleasure, or those Xt. asceticisms that engage in painful self-mortifications to repress, numb, and deaden the body so life can become tolerable...

The Master's asceticism is about cultivating 'indifference' which does not mean living carelessly, but a steadfastness of undisturbed inner order manifesting as calm - it is being indifferent to fate to be able to love and affirm life for what it IS!

Hedonistic asceticism whether it is epicurean, delighting in 'discrimination' and 'reasoning' that shuts off life with the dictum the beautiful life in the pleasant garden is the only good, is the only highest life, or the Xt. asceticism that has to kill the body to be able to "enjoy life" are both caricatures of life, are both nihilisms, are both decadent, are both inferior to the master.

Get it?

[As a note to myself, I would even include Sloterdijk's ascetic agenda as dia/gnostical as someone characterized him...
Living within "immunological sphere", a bubble of our own is his answer to get along with everybody in a cosmopolitanism... but that's another temperature.]


Quote :
--Imagine someone (a hedonist) who gets pleasure from reading great literature, learning an instrument, making art, having conversations with interesting people, etc. Or, maybe they get pleasure from raising a family, watching and helping their offspring grow into their selves, etc. They get pleasure out of their own accomplishments, health, exercise of their natural abilities, or when thinking about their experiences and about how they have lived.

Like I said, when one lives for pleasure only, then everything you say - honour, excellence - all become prostituted as a sensation of relief-providence in the face of pain. That is a caricature of life, which is what Hedonism amounts to.

I already said, a hedonist can get derive great pleasure in the act of painting itself, and it wouldn't matter what kind of fART he produces.
This 5 year scenario of painting is no different from a 5 min. scenario of f----, and deriving pleasure from the sensation of f---- itself, and it wouldn't matter which cow you did.


Quote :
If the only criticism you have of a hedonist is that they must like numbing themselves with drinking, drugs, avoidance, etc---(btw, things that tend to cause greater pain within a life as a whole)---then that's your own ignorance, and it's a criticism of you, not hedonism. That criticism exposes the critic's own decadence.

Aristotle must have been a decadent I guess, because he certainly critiqued the HEDONIST and HEDONISM FOR the kind of pleasures, the 'good' that would be included in this umbrella.

A static platonic mind thinks in terms of absolutes after faulting Sauwelios for it; so imagine the irony you are exhibiting. DEGREES.

There are degrees of decadence "among" hedonists [a decadence of quantity splitting hairs between 5 mins. and years] and hedonism itself is a decadence "among" the masters, [a decadence of quality in the premise itself] and the master himself may count as a decadence among the overmen... and they among the over-overmen...

Remember I asked you if you believed in hierarchies, and you said there are many kinds, but that means you were atleast recognizing there is one. Given that, is it impossible that there can be superior ways of living than hedonism?

If so, you are retarding evolution, and that makes you a nihilist.

Or are you just going to dissolve and level this chain, "There are degrees of decadence "among" hedonists and hedonism itself is a decadence "among" the masters, and the master himself may count as a decadence among the overmen... and they among the over-overmen..." , saying, hedonism and master-morality is the same thing?

If so, you are levelling everything into a reduction, to which your own critique of reductionism would apply to you. And that kind of meaninglessness again makes you a nihilist.


Is this what you want to do to save face?



Quote :
And this point, why don't you just try slipping into one of the criticisms of hedonism that I've already given you? --They're pretty good...

What have you given me but apologies for decadence?
What have you given me but apologies for just-because?
What have you given me but reductionisms and word play?

Living for pleasure-for-its-own-sake (whether that be beauty, power, excellence) is what even animals do... and hedonists therefore are no different from animals.
And that's not living, that's just existing.


Quote :

Quote :
No, the generalization doesn't apply since life IS suffering, need,, and pleasure is the satiation of this need..

One person can say that life is suffering/pain, and that pleasure is just the reduction in degree of suffering/pain. Another person can say that life is health/pleasure, and that pain is just the reduction in degree of health/pleasure. The difference is just an emotional/psychological one, not a conceptual one.
For example, I don't really care whether you think tallness is the absence of shortness, or whether you think shortness is the absence of tallness.

You dumb duck, if this were just a matter of flipping between heads and tails, and word changing like saying light is the absence of darkness and dark being the absence of light amounting to the same, then this whole argument would only be a childish ego issue.

You dumb duck, its not what I like to phrase.

If you can agree that the world is chaos, and entropy is the norm, and our life is an exception, a rarity, then life is an ordering in a world that IS disorder.
And any children's physics book is enough to tell you every order, every maintenance is a cost, is maintained at a price to pay. This is a pain, an expenditure that needs to be constantly replenished if it is to maintain itself.
From an apollonian point of view, Life is rooted in this need to order, to maintenance, to stability. It is thus rooted in suffering, and any relief from this can only be temporary, and any pleasure can therefore be only temporary.

Pain on habituation presses itself less forcefully on the conscious, and we call this steadiness of rhythm-to-pain as relief, pleasure. Pleasure is the consciousness of power, of the dominating will 'managing' to press things into service, into a steadiness upon which the will stands to expand and grow further - exceeding itself. Pleasure is felt as an overflow because of the consciousness of our capacity, our power to dominate our inner disorder into a steadiness that therefore doesn't disturb or enter the consciousness so blatantly. Life feels good because we feel powerful.

Pleasure is a degree of pain that life IS "essen-tially".

Quote :
You are free to have that conversation with whoever you like, other than me.

Smile

If you are content with your own hypocrisy, and justifying your hypocrisy with word-games, and cannot accept something because it doesn't sound good and pleasing to your ears, dont butcher my time either.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Mo
Lamb
avatar

Gender : Male Aries Posts : 276
Join date : 2013-02-02
Age : 34
Location : Northerly

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:23 pm

Lyssa wrote:
And therefore because he seeks to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, and all his actions and reasonings are so pre-informed, he lives sheltered from reality, and this avoidance of pain to ultimately be able to enjoy the pleasure only, live a pleasurable life, makes him a decadent in the eyes of the master, and so 5 mins. or years is irrelevant.

The hedonist will shelter himself from whatever he disvalues, just as anyone with a value will shelter themselves from whatever is its opposite.

Your caricature that a hedonist is someone who can’t see 5 minutes in front of his face, or doesn't care, to weigh the consequences of his actions, is utterly, completely idiotic. Why don’t you try reading an actual hedonist, before you speak?

Quote :
"Life is/should be a relief" is the statement he is affirming

Conceptually, it’s possible for a hedonist to hoist on himself tremendous pain, when he believes that the pleasure derived from the accomplishment that that pain was required for is worth it---i.e., outweighs the pain. --That’s maximizing pleasure, even though it involves tremendous pain. But, I guess, according to you... a hedonist has never seen the inside of a gym.

Quote :
The Master's asceticism is about cultivating 'indifference' which does not mean living carelessly, but a steadfastness of undisturbed inner order manifesting as calm

That sounds like Epicurus, who was a hedonist.

Quote :
Like I said, when one lives for pleasure only, then everything you say - honour, excellence - all become prostituted as a sensation of relief-providence in the face of pain. That is a caricature of life, which is what Hedonism amounts to.

A hedonist cannot account for what other values (that cannot be reduced to pleasure/pain) actually are. The hedonist is absurdly and preposterously reductionistic, and butchers the world with his narrow-mindedness----in the same way that someone who reduces every value to a reduction in need/suffering does. In fact, they’re both forms of hedonism.

Quote :
Remember I asked you if you believed in hierarchies, and you said there are many kinds, but that means you were atleast recognizing there is one. Given that, is it impossible that there can be superior ways of living than hedonism?

Obviously not. Did you not read my criticisms of hedonism?

Quote :
You dumb duck, if this were just a matter of flipping between heads and tails, and word changing like saying light is the absence of darkness and dark being the absence of light amounting to the same, then this whole argument would only be a childish ego issue.


For you, it is a childish ego issue. It’s your idiotic caricaturing that gives you away.

Quote :
If you are content with your own hypocrisy, and justifying your hypocrisy with word-games, and cannot accept something because it doesn't sound good and pleasing to your ears, dont butcher my time either.

What hypocrisy?



Back to top Go down
View user profile
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:27 pm

Lyssa why do you give all your attention to Mooooo and not me?! It's not fair!!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:37 pm

Human beings are just another animal.

I am surprised how everybody here is opposed to something like hedonism.

It's like everybody here is trying to make a moral valuation on the subject.

On this forum that's way too funny.
Back to top Go down
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 15978
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 52
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:38 pm

Æon wrote:
Lyssa why do you give all your attention to Mooooo and not me?!  It's not fair!!
See that comment, douche-bag?
How does this belong here?
You begging for attention.
Nothing to say...you have no clue what is being discussed and here you are inserting your mind-farts.

Try it one more time and let's see what happens.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Æon
Wyrm
avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 1919
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Outside

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:58 pm

Ah yes, right, I've detracted from this brilliant thread.

Allow me to redirect myself to the correct course of action and thought. Value, what's that about? Why do people have values? Could values be about, let me think here.......needs? Could it be that food is valuable, because it nourishes us? Could it be a chaste blonde petite female is valuable to me because I need to reproduce? And would she have that same value if I did not need to reproduce?

Is reproduction a need or a want?

Are there any values disconnected from need?


There Satyr, now I demand some rewards for my adherence to your fascist rules! Some positive attention is enough, pat me on my head and rub my tummy now.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:33 pm

Mo wrote:
Your caricature that a hedonist is someone who can’t see 5 minutes in front of his face, or doesn't care, to weigh the consequences of his actions, is utterly, completely idiotic. Why don’t you try reading an actual hedonist, before you speak?

You asked me where you are being hypocritical - here is one.

Is the standard conventional definition of hedonism positing pleasure as the Only innate good, and maximizing it and minimizing pain? Yes or no?

If so, then it doesn't matter if its 5 mins. or 5 years, as long as, evaluating and weighing the consequences of his actions in terms of pleasure/pain is reduction of life to sensation... and taking it as the sole ends makes him a nihilist as he lives within this sheltered reality informed by avoidance of pain. This makes him a decadent in the eyes of the master.




Mo wrote:

Quote :
Quote :"Life is/should be a relief" is the statement he is affirming

Conceptually, it’s possible for a hedonist to hoist on himself tremendous pain, when he believes that the pleasure derived from the accomplishment that that pain was required for is worth it---i.e., outweighs the pain. --That’s maximizing pleasure, even though it involves tremendous pain. But, I guess, according to you... a hedonist has never seen the inside of a gym.

Hypocrisy no. 2

Endurance of pain for a rewarding pleasure is missing the point. Whenever something is done to avoid pain, to live in a manner that life becomes most pleasurable, then "Life is/should be a relief" is the "ultimate" statement the hedonist is affirming. That IS the intention of minimizing pain.


"Mo wrote:
Quote :
Quote :The Master's asceticism is about cultivating 'indifference' which does not mean living carelessly, but a steadfastness of undisturbed inner order manifesting as calm

That sounds like Epicurus, who was a hedonist.

It would, when you play foul and cut off a chunk of my whole sentence and present it like that.

Hypocrisy no.3


Mo wrote:
Quote :
Quote :Like I said, when one lives for pleasure only, then everything you say - honour, excellence - all become prostituted as a sensation of relief-providence in the face of pain. That is a caricature of life, which is what Hedonism amounts to.

A hedonist cannot account for what other values (that cannot be reduced to pleasure/pain) actually are. The hedonist is absurdly and preposterously reductionistic, and butchers the world with his narrow-mindedness----

Good that you admit, not like you have a choice.

But then pretending like you gave me something to reflect on, when you are just giving me an apology is

Hypocrisy no. 4



Mo wrote:
in the same way that someone who reduces every value to a reduction in need/suffering does. In fact, they’re both forms of hedonism.

What?

I have explained why Life is rooted in pain as thermodynamically, it Costs to maintain order, in an entropic universe, and affirming that reality As-It-Is is the opposite of the hedonist's avoiding it to experience life only as pleasure. Am I "reducing" everything as need/suffering, or is that what reality is?

Your own reductionism is

Hypocrisy no. 5


Unless you wish to argue entropy is not the norm of the universe.

Unless you wish to argue order does not cost.

Go ahead. You are one dumb duck, try arguing this too. Do it.

Mo wrote:
Obviously not. Did you not read my criticisms of hedonism?

Your "criticism" is a saying that master-value is the same as hedonism. That is not affirmation of hierarchy, but nihilistic reductionism.

And then asking me if I read you attentively, is

Hypocrisy no. 6

Mo wrote:

Quote :
Quote :You dumb duck, if this were just a matter of flipping between heads and tails, and word changing like saying light is the absence of darkness and dark being the absence of light amounting to the same, then this whole argument would only be a childish ego issue.

For you, it is a childish ego issue. It’s your idiotic caricaturing that gives you away.

Why would I have an ego issue with you - haven't you already dominated me, you dumb duck? Your accusation just now has revealed, it is an ego issue for you.

You dumb duck, if I am only playing childish games and not you who's committing reductionism and word-swapping like reality were a matter of "whatever" feels best, Prove to me entropy is not the norm of the universe.

If not, I will have to cite this as

Hypocrisy no 7

Mo wrote:
Quote :
Quote :If you are content with your own hypocrisy, and justifying your hypocrisy with word-games, and cannot accept something because it doesn't sound good and pleasing to your ears, dont butcher my time either.

What hypocrisy?


Now you see it.... now you don't?

Hypocrisy no. 8

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:35 pm

Satyr wrote:
Æon wrote:
Lyssa why do you give all your attention to Mooooo and not me?!  It's not fair!!
See that comment, douche-bag?
How does this belong here?
You begging for attention.
Nothing to say...you have no clue what is being discussed and here you are inserting your mind-farts.

Try it one more time and let's see what happens.

Neon wants to exhibit his hedonism, he wants to provide himself as example and fodder for the subject in question, don't stop him...  Arrow 

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:36 pm

Æon wrote:
Lyssa why do you give all your attention to Mooooo and not me?!  It's not fair!!

Just because.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences

Back to top Go down
 
Hedonism or This and that: Discourse on the Method of Rightly Conducting your Reason and Seeking Truth in the Sciences
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 8Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Deputy for Kurdistan: political discourse should be consolidated in response to the defense of the demands and rights of the people of Kurdistan On: Friday 06/04/2012 19:08
» Discourse Markers / Connectors
» Crossing the Miqat without putting on Ihram
» Acronyms
» failure of bidding

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Know Thyself :: AGORA-
Jump to: