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 A question for everyone here. - Altruism

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:19 am

phoneutria wrote:
Your question might actually be, how much reasoning factors into the decision, and how much of it is sheer instinctual impulse.
I'm inclined to say the decision is largely instinctual, and I think you might agree with me, as you know how you would act, just not exactly why.

You are right that there would be no wasted time reasoning in the actual situation. But we can reason about any moral dilemma, now, just as we can reason about whether or not to order desert.

That we evolved in austere environments (or however the evolutionary explanation that we like sugar goes)... I would be surprised to hear it as a reason to order desert. It doesn't add anything to the actual reason to act, it seems. It's a how, not a why.

He told a nice story about how the impulse to save the child might have evolved/originated (from a third-person perspective). --But I wonder how he'd describe his (first-person) reason for acting...
Is the 'reproductive success', or possibility of, why the child must be saved, from his own eyes?



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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:06 am

Its interesting how in the informal chat debate between Star and Mo on this topic, Mo took Star to task for saying 'anyone with a high IQ would do that' is not an answer and begs the question of the OP.

And I would agree with Mo, that Star's answer was another "just because"...

But now interestingly, Mo, says, "how we came to have this impulse factor into why you either act on it, or ignore it, in the case?
You could tell an evolutionary story about how we evolved to like sugar, or whatever else. --But it isn't likely to be the reason why we order desert, (or don't). We order desert for reasons that are different in kind, right? Taste, for example, or pleasure, or to keep your company longer. Reasons that come from human eyes..."


You can see how Mo wants to play both sides of the drum.

To Star he'll say stopping at an answer like high IQ begs the question and then he'll make the case that reasoning cannot really figure into instinctual responses.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:06 am

Quote :
To Star he'll say stopping at an answer like high IQ begs the question and then he'll make the case that reasoning cannot really figure into instinctual responses.

"I'd do X because I'm smart" begs the question of why you'd do X. That's what star was doing.

We can self reflect and reason about instinctual responses. I clearly said we can reason about this case. Star didn't, but said he did.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:33 am

Mo wrote:
Quote :
To Star he'll say stopping at an answer like high IQ begs the question and then he'll make the case that reasoning cannot really figure into instinctual responses.

"I'd do X because I'm smart" begs the question of why you'd do X. That's what star was doing.

We can self reflect and reason about instinctual responses. I clearly said we can reason about this case. Star didn't, but said he did.



And I agreed Star didn't, but I also see you making the case that reasoning cannot validate instinctual responses.
One does not order a dessert *because the reasoning austere environments had figured into the response.

But Satyr's explanation many times about subsconscious pre-programming as a part of what dictates our instinctual response is something you should consider.

Anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Cowardice is as cowardice does.

Stupidity is as stupidity does.

The actor is not other than the act.
A brain-dead, coward, will focus on the pelasure, as an end, then demand a from whence and from where, if it frightens him to remain there...as in the case of pain/suffering.

The coward/idiot applies different standards and uses different levels of intellectual integrity, depending on how he feeeeeeeeeels about the object/objective.

Love?
Just because
Pleasure?
An end.

Hate?
we must analyze further and see what produces it.
Suffering?
Let us deconstruct it until we come to a pleasing conclusion.

This is where you get the typical modern imbecile.
He can hypothesize about the physiological motives in one instance, and in another he could not care less.
It's why, once identified, the modern is best left to himself and to his own.
Nothing there of any intellectual value....only some victim to exploit.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:55 am

If he understood human nature as the sum of all nurturing, the Past as a continuous unfolding out... then he wouldn't see the infinite regress as a nihilism and lack of meaning.

Life has no beginnning, no end.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:00 am

Also the idea that one's present response should be oriented by possible future ramifications smacks of that moralism, 'do not do unto others what you would not want done unto thee...

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:06 am

Lyssa wrote:
If he understood human nature as the sum of all nurturing, the Past as a continuous unfolding out... then he wouldn't see the infinite regress as a nihilism and lack of meaning.

Life has no beginnning, no end.

Then the concept of time is absurd.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:13 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
Eric wrote:

Question: If you saw some child drowning in a pool, and nobody was around to save him or her, would you save the child? The child is not yours, so there is no biological imperative for you to save him or her.

State your reasoning.


Satyr wrote:


If you want the mind-experiment to be effective you must include a risk, a cost...otherwise why would you not?

Then it's a matter of feeling its suffering, as you would your own, and wanting to stop it. Unless one is a sociopath, which I have been accused of, then you would act.

Now, if you ask me if I would help the child if my life was at risk or that of my own child...then my answer would be NO!

                                         .................................................................................

In a pool, with a child/man/woman, I would like to think I would save a person.  My reasons being, I am a strong swimmer, have life saving credentials and the pool is a small contained area.  

In a different scenario, despite my being a strong swimmer, I did not.

This happened to me.

Afternoon. I was standing on the shore of the lake, alone, which usually was frequented by many people, water skiing.  In the afternoon this lake which was normally calm in the mornings, becomes rough, with high waves.  I suddenly focussed on a small boat not far from the shore, but it appeared to be further away because of the height of the waves.  I saw an arm raised in the water and then it disappeared.  The arm came into focus again and I realized it was a man drowning.  I searched the shore for a boat to go out and help, there was only one in sight, a distance away, I ran to it, the man explained the boat engine was in bits, he was servicing it.   My mind was racing.  I rationally realized I was not going to risk my life in this situation by swimming out to this man as we would both drown.  I am not a big person and the prospective of trying to save a man, probably much bigger than myself was impossible in these circumstances.  I was screaming at this stage, help, help and pointing to the drowning man.  The arm disappeared again, I held my breath, then slowly it re-emerged.  I saw two men (they must have seen and heard my frantic actions), rowing in a small boat towards the drowning man.  It was too late.   The arm disappeared and never re-emerged again.  The empty landscape, minus the arm was intensely overwhelming, I stood in disbelief.

The next day his body was found in a fetal position at the bottom of the lake.

The image today is as intense as it was when it happened.  I never went back to that lake.

Hey Reasonvemotion,

Glad to see you back. You were right about me, inevitably, changing. But that's a separate topic.

What is your motivation for saving the drowning child, though? You stated your capabilities, but never the motivation.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:10 am

Erik wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
If he understood human nature as the sum of all nurturing, the Past as a continuous unfolding out... then he wouldn't see the infinite regress as a nihilism and lack of meaning.

Life has no beginnning, no end.

Then the concept of time is absurd.

Time is a only human concept to measure and make sense of change.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:17 pm

Lyssa wrote:
To Star he'll say stopping at an answer like high IQ begs the question and then he'll make the case that reasoning cannot really figure into instinctual responses.

Reasoning will factor into whatever you do, when you look for reasons to act one way rather than another. And I think evolutionary understandings of how some impulse developed can impact our reasons for action when we self-reflect about why we're doing whatever we're doing.

But sometimes, in some cases, explaining how some impulse developed is different than explaining why you are going to follow, or overcome that impulse. And sometimes, confusing them looks ridiculous...

For example, if someone says that they're ordering desert as a survival tactic (and that's their reasoning for ordering desert), then I will choke on whatever I'm eating, or fall out of my chair, or something. --I'm discounting the evolutionary reason for eating sugar in this particular case, but NOT discounting every evolutionary explanation, in every case.

And about this particular case, I only asked the question.

Quote :
One does not order a dessert *because the reasoning austere environments had figured into the response.

No, you probably order desert because it tastes good. Pushing the causal chain further back, in this case, probably doesn't add anything to the reason itself, and it may even obfuscate the reason why you really order desert. (Because you really didn't do it, just now, to survive). Step inside of yourself.

Quote :
Also the idea that one's present response should be oriented by possible future ramifications smacks of that moralism, 'do not do unto others what you would not want done unto thee...

Settle down.

Tell me, do you not think of the consequences of your actions when you act?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:41 pm

Above a defense of mindlessness.

The actor other than the act....and the act not even worth exploring.
Why analyze when, like manimals, we can indulge, spontaneously, and not even think of it later.

Yes, how ridiculous, the scene of someone justifying why he is ordering desert by saying "I need to survive", from a moron who cannot factor in superfluity, and is so obtuse he raises to the heavens the manimal...because it is he.
It is as ridiculous as having sex and saying: " wanted to have a child."...or standing before a panorama, inhaling deeply and justifying the inhale as "I am oxygenating myself."

The imbecile, having been exposed as a coward, and an idiot, will now envision different scenarios where being a moron is less ridiculous, and not being one more so.  

So, remember...when you eat it is to pleasure yourself....and not because you are an organism requiring nourishment...and now that your belly is filled easily, because you are a spoiled brat, you do so anyhow, even when not hungry, just because.

Let us not delve into the factor as to why obesity is the new "normal" and just call it "spontaneous".

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:52 pm

Quote me some more Forrest Gump, dumb fuck.

And then justify any of your puke by quoting what I said, if anything you've said is about me.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:00 pm

Remember..
When in a buffet and you get up for that third plate of food, it isn't because your nature evolved in austere environments, and the sense of a full belly puts you in a narcotic, endorphin, rush, nor is what you choose to put on your place decided by your nature...it's all 'just because' you want to feel that pleasure.

On the other hand, avoiding pain/suffering is not 'just because'.

For instance...when I drink and I get a buzz...to keep the buzz going, the numbness, the euphoria of disconnect, I drink some more.
My brain is saying "Yes, more"...my body is saying "No more!!!"...the brain overpowers the body, but then my body has the final word.

So why does man pour toxins into his body?
Just because?
Pleasure? Yes, and why is it pleasing to ingest poison?

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:25 pm

Just because?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:17 pm

The human animal evolved a higher awareness than the bestial animal. This varies in accordance with ones own heritability of course, but a more dynamic discriminatory consciousness.

Using intelligence to rescue a child isn’t about standing there passively watching the child flail in the water as you meticulously calculate reasons why you should save him. The questions about the child’s identity, whether he is a good kid or not, whether he comes from a good family, whether he tortures animals, might all be relevant questions. However, It is a situation demanding alacrity, not flaccid rumination. Stress responses derive from an a priori mechanism, but the degree of intelligent calculation in a stressful situation that demands discriminatory reactions more immediate than normal depends on one’s ability to process cost-benefit information in an efficient expedient manner. It has to do with an ability to perceive details quickly enough to determine the severity of the cost-benefit ratio.

Compassion only has to do with it as a moral reservation that may or may not figure in after the fact.

The problem with his hypothetical is he did not place it within a cost-benefit context. He merely proposed an either/or situation.

Satyr’s hypothetical was better. It included costs as to why morality would figure into it.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:18 pm

Satyr wrote:
Remember..
When in a buffet and you get up for that third plate of food, it isn't because your nature evolved in austere environments, and the sense of a full belly puts you in a narcotic, endorphin, rush, nor is what you choose to put on your place decided by your nature...it's all 'just because' you want to feel that pleasure.

On the other hand, avoiding pain/suffering is not 'just because'.

For instance...when I drink and I get a buzz...to keep the buzz going, the numbness, the euphoria of disconnect, I drink some more.
My brain is saying "Yes, more"...my body is saying "No more!!!"...the brain overpowers the body, but then my body has the final word.

So why does man pour toxins into his body?

Just because?
Pleasure? Yes, and why it is pleasing to ingest poison?

I suppose this line of thinking could apply to philosophy itself? A sort of disenchantment or deconstruction of philosophy; the conventional perception of philosophy as " Love of wisdom ". Why do you love wisdom? "Just because".

It's not, really, that people love truth or wisdom, but rather that they love the power which is obtained through knowledge which provides an evolutionary advantage.

The philosopher's will = will to deification.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:21 pm

Quote :
That what needs to be done needs to be done does not negate the fact that we take pleasure in it. As I see it, the only purely altruistic action is the one that ends in your death.


Right, but I just don't recognize having this grand future effect stuff as pleasurable, to me.. All that exists to us is a now. One can't help it to feel slightly better in the now granted a anticipated future epic now, that of ones self or anothers experience. Its mabey the main psychological mechanism that keeps people going. Then you can understand that this indirect, butterfly effect anticipation is a cop out. Due to lack of direct and/or short-term effect? You tell me.


Quote :
Write me down under selfish, if you wish to, dear.


Not that I'm saying it's bad per se. I'm actually in love with this idealized kind of sociopath or pseudo sociopath. Just that if one would revolt too much against ones own nature too much the result would be either/both faliure or/and misery. 
Its all about selfishness in equilibrium with self-interest essentially.

Quote :
Self sacrifice is anti-natural. Why is it that to you, to fight your natural instinct for self-preservation and the preservation of your kin for an artificially imposed notion of virtue the right course of action? The common good?



There's no such thing as the common good. Every event ever so slightly pushes forward the boulders of new recipients and senders. There's a total neutrality. If suddunley everyone in the world who earns 2 dollars a day instead started earning 3, the differential advantage of everyone else would be lost, their overall leverage no matter how big how would be lost, in the exact amount gained by the others. So it all comes down to an individualized notion of value. Some are bad at math and thus fail to put their own regime into application. 

I don't care much for animalistic drives. Which come down to basic pleasure gain, basic pain avoidance and individual/group reproductive succes, all three in a constant shift of priority, moment to moment. If people are to care so deeply about them, then only a deluding ego is preventing a universalization of that care onto all sentient beings. Though nothing can be done, animals in most cases already live under predicaments in which they are designed to experience the greatest satifaction possible. If pain aviodance were to be prioritized mass extinction would be the only option. Which on the one hand makes sense, on the other hand is pointless granted its own logic. It's not a narcissistic disregard, I'd certainly put a end to any unproductive torture given oppertunity, just a greater indifference than most.


What's left then is a certain sensitivity and appreciation towards awareness. The degree to certain humans achieve it, but potentially not limited to them. There would be many different kinds, the more unique the better. And I hold them dear, to a certain extent beyond myself. So doing the math and if it had to be, I'd rather five random family members died of a plane crash, than a certain one of my taste. Such eqations could potentially include myself. 


Quote :
natural instinct

That's like saying I'm aware of the pupper master and choose to be its bitch. I say let the puppets start exploting their master, truly exploiting. But who knows, mabey its just another one if its grand schemes.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:53 pm

Self preservation as I have learned, is powerful and acts as a warning device.  

One is full of noble intentions, but until it actually happens, one does not know exactly what one would do in any given situation.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:25 pm

stargazer wrote:
The human animal evolved a higher awareness than the bestial animal. This varies in accordance with ones own heritability of course, but a more dynamic discriminatory consciousness.

Using intelligence to rescue a child isn’t about standing there passively watching the child flail in the water as you meticulously calculate reasons why you should save him. The questions about the child’s identity, whether he is a good kid or not, whether he comes from a good family, whether he tortures animals, might all be relevant questions. However, It is a situation demanding alacrity, not flaccid rumination. Stress responses derive from an a priori mechanism, but the degree of intelligent calculation in a stressful situation that demands discriminatory reactions more immediate than normal depends on one’s ability to process cost-benefit information in an efficient expedient manner. It has to do with an ability to perceive details quickly enough to determine the severity of the cost-benefit ratio.

Compassion only has to do with it as a moral reservation that may or may not figure in after the fact.

The problem with his hypothetical is he did not place it within a cost-benefit context. He merely proposed an either/or situation.

Satyr’s hypothetical was better. It included costs as to why morality would figure into it.

And how does this relate to intelligence?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:41 pm



How is it unrelated?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:25 am

As in a split second, instinctual, hormonally mediated action processed in the limbic system.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:29 am

If it was a child I would save them merely for the fact that I have a soft spot for children and animals.

If it was an adult male that I think the world would be better off without having I'd let them drown to death.

If it was an exceptionally beautiful woman I would ask them for sexual favors before saving them.

If it was a woman that I didn't like or somebody I just could care less of I'd let them drown to death also.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:47 am

phoneutria wrote:
As in a split second, instinctual, hormonally mediated action processed in the limbic system.

Yes, mental synapse.

That's obvious. I look past the obvious. Ask yourself why we evolved a more discriminate filtration system for sensual data.

In the animal kingdom, the consciousness is raised no higher than mere self-preservation and the protection and preservation of ones own kin. Beyond that, animals have no ability to look at the significance of another animal because they have no awareness of a self. They are purely instinct.

Being cognizant of otherness is what validates a higher consciousness. Viewing another human being as a worthwhile factor means identifying with a signature of the self, unless of course circumstances dictate otherwise. For example, you have a pedophile and a cashier. Which would you identify with more; who would be more worthy of identification?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:06 am

stargazer wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
As in a split second, instinctual, hormonally mediated action processed in the limbic system.

Yes, mental synapse.

That's obvious. I look past the obvious. Ask yourself why we evolved a more discriminate filtration system for sensual data.

In the animal kingdom, the consciousness is raised no higher than mere self-preservation and the protection and preservation of ones own kin. Beyond that, animals have no ability to look at the significance of another animal because they have no awareness of a self. They are purely instinct.

Being cognizant of otherness is what validates a higher consciousness. Viewing another human being as a worthwhile factor means identifying with a signature of the self, unless of course circumstances dictate otherwise. For example, you have a pedophile and a cashier. Which would you identify with more; who would be more worthy of identification?

I disagree with you. It seems to me that the majority of the world population would attempt to save another human from dying as long as there is no risk involved, with no consideration of worth whatsoever. It would seem that the fact that it is a human alone is enough to reach the threshold of worthiness.
I would not call that a more discriminate filtration system. In fact, most other large mammals lack this indiscriminate motivation to save anything that is remotely familiar.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:10 am

Don't forget the photo op afterwards.

Everybody loves hearing a heart felt courageous story of a good Samaritan saving somebody in a magazine or news story.  It reinforces the myth of the inherent goodness and virtue prevailing within the state.

Usually stories like that can be found near kittens being saved out of high tree by a police officer of some kind.

We all must be courteous good Samaritans to one another becomes the mantra [propaganda] of the state.

We all must love the shepherds.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:25 am

phoneutria wrote:


I disagree with you. It seems to me that the majority of the world population would attempt to save another human from dying as long as there is no risk involved, with no consideration of worth whatsoever.

This is a senseless platitude. Firstly, risk is always involved in any action, to a lesser or greater degree.
Secondly, what makes you think the "majority of the world population" (which is some vague reference to nothing in particular), would be automatically predisposed to alturism? This is no different than that infantile sheltered sentiment of the "basic goodness of people".


Quote :
It would seem that the fact that it is a human alone is enough to reach the threshold of worthiness.
I would not call that a more discriminate filtration system. In fact, most other large mammals lack this indiscriminate motivation to save anything that is remotely familiar.

You are stuck in an inflexible comprehension. This is about the concept of the self as a relational component to human interaction. Would a dog give a shit if it saw someone slit their wrists?



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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:29 am

My particularly favorite story that I'll always remember is how an African woman in Rwanda used her infant or small child as a shield from the oncoming bullets headed towards her when massive shooting enveloped the entire city she was residing in.

Is altruism really inherent all throughout humanity?  Is that really the case?

More than likely the powers that be would like us all to believe in that because it makes it a lot more easier to control us instead of alluding to the direct opposite.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:46 am

Mo wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
Your question might actually be, how much reasoning factors into the decision, and how much of it is sheer instinctual impulse.
I'm inclined to say the decision is largely instinctual, and I think you might agree with me, as you know how you would act, just not exactly why.

You are right that there would be no wasted time reasoning in the actual situation. But we can reason about any moral dilemma, now, just as we can reason about whether or not to order desert.

That we evolved in austere environments (or however the evolutionary explanation that we like sugar goes)... I would be surprised to hear it as a reason to order desert. It doesn't add anything to the actual reason to act, it seems. It's a how, not a why.

He told a nice story about how the impulse to save the child might have evolved/originated (from a third-person perspective). --But I wonder how he'd describe his (first-person) reason for acting...
Is the 'reproductive success', or possibility of, why the child must be saved, from his own eyes?


My "why" answer is to say that I feel like I must, or "ought to" as you would prefer. And the reason why I feel like I must is that in the moment I come into contact with a scenario like this and my brain is able to realize what is happening, my body is instantly bombarded with a number of hormones that will inevitably cause me to act in a specific way. The type of reaction will be associated with which hormones and at which volumes are produced, and thus is a product my organic construct.

I saw a documentary a few years ago on the killing or indian children by their own tribes. I remember my reaction as being sad for the loss of life and potential. When I saw the clip that twbb posted again, I had a much stronger and more emotional reaction. It is evident to me that having a child, which I happened to be breastfeeding when I saw the clip, caused a drastic change in the way I perceived this video. Naturally my levels of oxytocin are very high right now, particularly during breastfeeding, and when trying to put into words exactly what I felt, what came out is that I wish I could hold those children and stroke their hair and tell them that nobody would ever hurt them again, because I will protect them with my life.
A nurturer... a chemically induced one. Nature speaks Smile
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:50 am

Nurturer huh?  Women are such hypocrites.

They care nothing of the world. Only of themselves.

At least men are the more honest sex in those regards.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:12 am

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
To Star he'll say stopping at an answer like high IQ begs the question and then he'll make the case that reasoning cannot really figure into instinctual responses.

Reasoning will factor into whatever you do, when you look for reasons to act one way rather than another. And I think evolutionary understandings of how some impulse developed can impact our reasons for action when we self-reflect about why we're doing whatever we're doing.

They impact even when we are not conscious of it.

Quote :
But sometimes, in some cases, explaining how some impulse developed is different than explaining why you are going to follow, or overcome that impulse. And sometimes, confusing them looks ridiculous...

Is continuity a confusion to you?

I developed an impulse to form patterns from and in all that I perceive before me. How this impulse evolved owes to the why of it. Because I want to be efficient.


Quote :
For example, if someone says that they're ordering desert as a survival tactic (and that's their reasoning for ordering desert), then I will choke on whatever I'm eating, or fall out of my chair, or something. --I'm discounting the evolutionary reason for eating sugar in this particular case, but NOT discounting every evolutionary explanation, in every case. No, you probably order desert because it tastes good. Pushing the causal chain further back, in this case, probably doesn't add anything to the reason itself, and it may even obfuscate the reason why you really order desert. (Because you really didn't do it, just now, to survive). Step inside of yourself.[

Is ordering a dessert random whim? The reason 'in' that pleasure (austere environments) would override any reasoning 'to' that pleasure, is it not? Atleast, for hedonists.
How many would continue to order that dessert if they knew the frailty of their body and their subconscious hunger, and acknowledging themselves as weak entities in the face of overwhelming entropy? A more discriminating would be able to digest this fact and enjoy that dessert in full awareness of how vulnerable he is. But not a hedonist to whom pain and pleasure is the way how life is experienced.
Just because reasoning ruins the pleasure to hedonists, doesn't mean, the how and the why are confused.


Quote :

Quote :
Also the idea that one's present response should be oriented by possible future ramifications smacks of that moralism, 'do not do unto others what you would not want done unto thee...

Settle down.

Its hard. I always seem to get hysterical around you.

Everything about you excites me.

Turns out... that remark had nothing to do with you but was in reference to someone else's statement.


Quote :
Tell me, do you not think of the consequences of your actions when you act?

There is a cost-benefit that is not measured in terms of pain and pleasure.


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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:23 am

Consciousness is what is added to the organism...it is an evolutionary development.
Self-consciousnesses a further development.
The organism need not be conscious of it, because it is automatic...like breathing, the autoimmune system, cellular division, digestion, metabolism...

Need is the interpretation of the organism's lack, its imperfection, its Becoming within the increasing randomness.
An organism need not feel its own Becoming for it to persist.
When I become drunk, and numb, my consciousness clouding, my self-consciousness declining...my body still continues to function.

My body's need for energies, to remain active, is not ended when I stop sensing reality...as when I am asleep, or placed into a narcosis using drugs.

When I fill my belly with nutrients, allowing my body to pull from this stored resource, my need for nutrition has not ended because I no longer feel hungry...or because my hunger has diminished to a point where i am not longer conscious of it.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:42 am

Lyssa, why do you think that reasoning kills the pleasure for hedonists?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:20 am

"If you saw some child drowning in a pool, and nobody was around to save him or her, would you save the child? The child is not yours, so there is no biological imperative for you to save him or her."

Yes.

#

"State your reasoning."

For me: it would be an empathetic (and selfish) reaction.

Mine is seven (turning eight next month): he's softened me considerably (in some areas of thinking)...made me more inclined to 'see' others.

The idea of a drowning child leads me to consider how I'd want some other person to act should mine be the one sinking.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:56 pm

phoneutria wrote:
My "why" answer is to say that I feel like I must, or "ought to" as you would prefer. And the reason why I feel like I must is that in the moment I come into contact with a scenario like this and my brain is able to realize what is happening, my body is instantly bombarded with a number of hormones that will inevitably cause me to act in a specific way. The type of reaction will be associated with which hormones and at which volumes are produced, and thus is a product my organic construct.

If I ask you why you are thinking, you could say, "These synapses and neurons are firing, and such-and-such chemical processes are occuring in my brain..."
...Or, you could say, "The topic is interesting".

If I ask you why you want to save the child, you could say, "I have these hormones and physiological processes that compel my action..."
...Or, one could say, "_________________________".

One kind of description comes from a laboratory, and the other comes from inside of yourself. Step inside of yourself. My guess is that someone would want to save the child because they see in it a young representative of whatever they find possible/valuable about life, however they would describe those values.

But I wonder what it says about someone who would flip a coin...
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:06 pm

Mo wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
My "why" answer is to say that I feel like I must, or "ought to" as you would prefer. And the reason why I feel like I must is that in the moment I come into contact with a scenario like this and my brain is able to realize what is happening, my body is instantly bombarded with a number of hormones that will inevitably cause me to act in a specific way. The type of reaction will be associated with which hormones and at which volumes are produced, and thus is a product my organic construct.

If I ask you why you are thinking, you could say, "These synapses and neurons are firing, and such-and-such chemical processes are occuring in my brain..."
...Or, you could say, "The topic is interesting".

If I ask you why you want to save the child, you could say, "I have these hormones and physiological processes that compel my action..."
...Or, one could say, "_________________________".

One kind of description comes from a laboratory, and the other comes from inside of yourself. Step inside of yourself. My guess is that someone would want to save the child because they see in it a young representative of whatever they find possible/valuable about life, however they would describe those values.


I understood that this is what you were asking. This is the answer I wrote for you:

phoneutria wrote:
and when trying to put into words exactly what I felt, what came out is that I wish I could hold those children and stroke their hair and tell them that nobody would ever hurt them again, because I will protect them with my life.
A nurturer...

quote wrote:

But I wonder what it says about someone who would flip a coin...

This is how she honors her ancestry.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:10 pm

quote wrote:

But I wonder what it says about someone who would flip a coin...

Phoneu wrote:" This is how she honors her ancestry."


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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:51 pm

stargazer wrote:


This is a senseless platitude. Firstly, risk is always involved in any action, to a lesser or greater degree.  

The hypothetical example we are discussing specified no risk.

Quote :

Secondly, what makes you think the "majority of the world population" (which is some vague reference to nothing in particular), would be automatically predisposed to alturism?


This:

[stargazer] Stress responses derive from an a priori mechanism[/quote]

Quote :

This is no different than that infantile sheltered sentiment of the "basic goodness of people".

"basic goodness of people" is a natural fallacy, it relies on the notion that saving people is something good.

Quote :

You are stuck in an inflexible comprehension. This is about the concept of the self as a relational component to human interaction. Would a dog give a shit if it saw someone slit their wrists?

This is a valid proposal. After all, it would be difficult to make any consideration on empathy or altruism outside of the concept of self.
I was having trouble understanding you. Thank you for pointing out that I wasn't comprehending, and for highlighting the word self.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:42 am

Lyssa wrote:
Is ordering a dessert random whim? The reason 'in' that pleasure (austere environments) would override any reasoning 'to' that pleasure, is it not? Atleast, for hedonists.

No, if I were to know exactly how I evolved to like sugar, it would not change the fact that I like sugar---and that the pleasure derived from eating it counts as a reason to eat it. (One that is often outweighed by reasons that have nothing to do with pleasure/pain). But, if I have earned it, and deserve it, then the pleasure is the reason that isn't outweighed.

Quote :
Just because reasoning ruins the pleasure to hedonists, doesn't mean, the how and the why are confused.

No. Reasoning IS a pleasure, to most hedonists. And the pleasures of knowing often rank higher than base ones. ("Better Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied" ---said a famous hedonist).

But I am not a hedonist in the sense that I think the only good is pleasure---or that all goods reduce to pleasure. Pleasure is just one good, among many.

Quote :
Its hard. I always seem to get hysterical around you.

Everything about you excites me.

Already art thou o'er-excited,
And, if it last, wilt soon be plighted.

(I've been reading Faust, can you tell?)


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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:42 pm

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
Is ordering a dessert random whim? The reason 'in' that pleasure (austere environments) would override any reasoning 'to' that pleasure, is it not? Atleast, for hedonists.

No, if I were to know exactly how I evolved to like sugar, it would not change the fact that I like sugar---

You like sugar because it satisfies a need and a history of a sensation built on/around that need. The satisfaction of it feels pleasing.


Quote :
No. Reasoning IS a pleasure, to most hedonists. And the pleasures of knowing often rank higher than base ones. ("Better Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied" ---said a famous hedonist).

I believe they are called the Epicureans.

To the Epicureans, Reasoning IS a pleasure, *because indulging in excessive pleasure would ruin the pleasure;

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and honorably and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and honorably and justly without living pleasantly." [Epicurus]


Quote :
But I am not a hedonist in the sense that I think the only good is pleasure---or that all goods reduce to pleasure. Pleasure is just one good, among many.

You are a hedonist in the sense you claimed pleasure is an end, just like beauty, etc. because it is good and good is what gives pleasure.

Just because.

Quote :
Already art thou o'er-excited,
And, if it last, wilt soon be plighted.

(I've been reading Faust, can you tell?)

Wherefore thy passion so excite
And thus thine eloquence inflame?
A scrap is for our compact good.
Thou under-signest merely with a drop of blood.
Blood is a juice of very special kind.

(Yes. When you sold your soul to the devil...)

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