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 A question for everyone here. - Altruism

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:50 pm

Lyssa wrote:
They impact even when we are not conscious of it.

Mo's question comes from the standpoint that we are more than animals acting on instinct. It does not deny that the instinct exists and its impact, but aims to find what is the reasoning applied on the decision to engage in an action (pursue the instinct) or not (block the instinct).


Quote :
Is ordering a dessert random whim? The reason 'in' that pleasure (austere environments) would override any reasoning 'to' that pleasure, is it not? Atleast, for hedonists.

Not necessarily.
Why do we drink alcohol?

Quote :

How many would continue to order that dessert if they knew the frailty of their body and their subconscious hunger, and acknowledging themselves as weak entities in the face of overwhelming entropy?

More than if not. What would you do in your last day to live, read a book?

Quote :

A more discriminating would be able to digest this fact and enjoy that dessert in full awareness of how vulnerable he is.

And is that not a pleasure, you silly bug?

Quote :

But not a hedonist to whom pain and pleasure is the way how life is experienced.

It is this very awareness of the delicate balance of all things, the extremely unlikely event of order, that leads us to seize our time, expose ourselves to experience, to wish to have one more day to live.

Quote :

Just because reasoning ruins the pleasure to hedonists, doesn't mean, the how and the why are confused.

Once again, why do you think that?

Quote :
I believe they are called the Epicureans.

Aren't epicureans hedonists?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:48 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Wherefore thy passion so excite
And thus thine eloquence inflame?
A scrap is for our compact good.
Thou under-signest merely with a drop of blood.
Blood is a juice of very special kind.

I've been thinking...

Goethe’s Mephistopheles offers his submission to Faust, and that’s how he tries to capture his soul...

Here, an unwearied slave. I’ll wear thy tether,
And to thine every nod obedient be:
When There again we come together,
Then shalt though do the same for me.

When Faust has the service of his power, Mephistopheles can see who Faust is, because he can see what Faust goes for---what motivates him. (Those are the values that reveal his soul).

Faust wanted knowledge, of course---but that wish was empty of content. There was still nothing in particular he ended up wanting (to last). IOW, Faust wanted to know whether he really wanted nothing, after all. (He was contemplating suicide before the devil came, right?)

Here's a thought I had...

Do you think that Faust was saved because his soul was dead to begin with? He lacked passion for his experiences. Mephistopheles was more filled with longing than Faust, (for Faust), and so, wasn't the devil also more human? (And could that have been why Faust was one of God's favorites? --Faust was divorced from life.)

The woe, the rapture, so ensnare me,
That from her gaze I cannot tear me!
And, strange! Around her fairest throat
A single scarlet band is gleaming,
No broader than a knife-blade seeming!

That’s Faust speaking, but he’s describing a lifeless eidolon who only magically appears as whatever Faust’s (the looker’s) love is...
(And she looks like death).

Lyssa wrote:
(Yes. When you sold your soul to the devil...)

I'm closer to the devil than Faust. (With the exception that, if I get to know you, you won't die instantly)
Smile


- - - -

Quote :
You are a hedonist in the sense you claimed pleasure is an end, just like beauty, etc. because it is good and good is what gives pleasure.

(After this, the last word is yours on this part)

No. There are different types of goods---and one of them is pleasure. I wouldn’t reduce any other type of good to pleasure. You may get pleasure from beauty, or excellence, or insight, etc.---but those are good independently of whether you get pleasure from them. Aren’t they?
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:00 pm

Mo wrote:
Faust wanted knowledge, of course---but that wish was empty of content. There was still nothing in particular he ended up wanting (to last). IOW, Faust wanted to know whether he really wanted nothing, after all. (He was contemplating suicide before the devil came, right?)

Here's a thought I had...

Do you think that Faust was saved because his soul was dead to begin with? He lacked passion for his experiences.

I'll have to address Faust more properly later, but to your asking, if his soul was dead to begin with, I'd think not; consider:

Nietzsche wrote:
"We are unknown to ourselves, we knowers: and with good reason. We have never looked for ourselves, - so how are we ever supposed to find our­ selves? How right is the saying: 'Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also';! our treasure is where the hives of our knowledge are. As born winged-insects and intellectual honey-gatherers we are constantly making for them, concerned at heart with only one thing - to 'bring some­ thing home'. As far as the rest of life is concerned, the so-called 'experi­ences', - who of us ever has enough seriousness for them? or enough time? I fear we have never really been 'with it' in such matters: our heart is simply not in it - and not even our ear! On the contrary, like somebody divinely absent-minded and sunk in his own thoughts who, the twelve strokes of midday having just boomed into his ears, wakes with a start and wonders 'What hour struck?', sometimes we, too, afterwards rub our ears and ask, astonished, taken aback, 'What did we actually experience then?' or even, 'Who are we, in fact?' and afterwards, as I said, we count all twelve reverberating strokes of our experience, of our life, of our being - oh! and lose count . . . We remain strange to ourselves out of necessity, we do not understand ourselves, we must confusedly mistake who we are, the motto 'everyone is furthest from himself' applies to us for ever, - we are not 'knowers' when it comes to ourselves..." [GM, Preface, 1]


Quote :

Lyssa wrote:
(Yes. When you sold your soul to the devil...)

I'm closer to the devil than Faust.

Any psychologist as good as Nietzsche should be Wink


Quote :
(With the exception that, if I get to know you, you won't die instantly) Smile


I make all my pledges with zest.

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- - -

Quote :

Quote :
You are a hedonist in the sense you claimed pleasure is an end, just like beauty, etc. because it is good and good is what gives pleasure.

(After this, the last word is yours on this part)

No. There are different types of goods---and one of them is pleasure. I wouldn’t reduce any other type of good to pleasure. You may get pleasure from beauty, or excellence, or insight, etc.---but those are good independently of whether you get pleasure from them. Aren’t they?

When something is ideal-ized as good in-itself (therefore a pleasure in itself) and good for its own sake, 'just because', you abtract it from reality and as a virtue for everyone. Beauty, excellence, or insight are only a Means-to and when you make of the means, an ends-in-itself, you are arresting the infinite-regress of knowing that IS the self-in-becoming, which is a nihilism.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:37 pm

Lyssa wrote:
I make all my pledges with zest.

What do you mean?

Quote :
Beauty, excellence, or insight are only a Means-to and when you make of the means, an ends-in-itself, you are arresting the infinite-regress of knowing that IS the self-in-becoming, which is a nihilism.

Having a goal that your actions are aimed at is the opposite of nihilism. Thinking that every one of your values is on a par with what money is---(i.e., just a means to something further)---IS nihilism. It's just a disguised form of nihilism, hidden by your pushing back the question infinitely, about what your goals are.

If you think these things are just means, then tell me...
What is beauty (or excellence) a means to?
And then tell me, what is that a means to?
And then tell me, what is that a means to?

We wouldn't need an infinite amount of time together for you to see that your means are going to run up against a goal, for you. (Or else be circularly justified). We would need only about 5 minutes. Try it, on your own. Suppose you value yourself, (becoming who you are is your goal), and then you explain who you are in terms of your ancestry. In doing so, you are really just defining yourself---and not pointing to something outside of yourself, to which you are means.

The ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch Smile

These goals are not abstracted, idealized, universalized, absolutized, planted in noumenal realms, or anything like that. They are yours, and immersed in the world.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:30 pm

I think evolution should end...
I mean, 'nough is enough.

What comes after superior organism...super-superior?
What's after superman, super-duper-man?
Like, give me a break.
 Rolling Eyes 
When will all this ascent end.
All this towards this and towards that...
Let's call it a day and fuck, shall we?
Later we'll order in, some pizza.

We'll call God pleasure, and worship it.

Seriously...
Keeping the mouth shut is the best way to cultivate the image of intelligence.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:40 pm

I thought I was going to have last word...  


Mo wrote:

Quote :
Beauty, excellence, or insight are only a Means-to and when you make of the means, an ends-in-itself, you are arresting the infinite-regress of knowing that IS the self-in-becoming, which is a nihilism.

Having a goal that your actions are aimed at is the opposite of nihilism. Thinking that every one of your values is on a par with what money is---(i.e., just a means to something further)---IS nihilism. It's just a disguised form of nihilism, hidden by your pushing back the question infinitely, about what your goals are.

If you think these things are just means, then tell me...
What is beauty (or excellence) a means to?
And then tell me, what is that a means to?
And then tell me, what is that a means to?

We wouldn't need an infinite amount of time together for you to see that your means are going to run up against a goal, for you. (Or else be circularly justified). We would need only about 5 minutes. Try it, on your own. Suppose you value yourself, (becoming who you are is your goal), and then you explain who you are in terms of your ancestry. In doing so, you are really just defining yourself---and not pointing to something outside of yourself, to which you are means.

The ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch Smile

These goals are not abstracted, idealized, universalized, absolutized, planted in noumenal realms, or anything like that. They are yours, and immersed in the world.


This is by far the most ridiculous post you've made here so far; it sure beats that one where I was "done with you"...

"The ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch"

?? What ??

But of course it is.

Its funny how you are even arguing not only against infinite regress, but now also for the end of evolution, and saying you are no nihilist...

You are a tease.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Mo wrote:
Having a goal that your actions are aimed at is the opposite of nihilism.

That must be a conscious goal, like an idea because otherwise there would be no nihilists and no nihilism - they'd all die rather quickly if their body were to not have any goals - like sustaining itself.

Following this, nihilism is a matter( not really a thing of matter though…) of the conscious mind and the conscious mind alone.
What constitutes a goal? Is getting out of bed in the morning and making breakfast enough to constitute an individual which is not nihilistic? How little of a conscious goal and actions taken towards it is enough to constitute a non-nihilist?

If the goals were unreachable, like an ideal - now that would make more sense.
And all that by using the nihilistic definition of nihilism.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:59 pm

I wish your post has less insult and more substance.

Lyssa wrote:
"The ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch"

?? What ??

But of course it is.

No, it's not. According to Nietzsche, the ubermensch is the meaning of the earth, and a goal for you. You are to be a bridge to the ubermensch. That's a goal, from your perspective, not a means.

Whatever goals the Ubermensch has, beyond himself, is never said. And they're certainly not yours. But the point is that from YOUR perspective (not the perspective of some detached universal god's-eye-view from nowhere in particular), YOU have that goal---if you're following Nietzsche.

Put yourself inside of yourself.

Even if you think of the Ubermensch as an ideal that can't be obtained---because it represents continual self-overcoming---that doesn't change the fact that that is a goal---and not a means to something further.

Quote :
Its funny how you are even arguing not only against infinite regress, but now also for the end of evolution, and saying you are no nihilist..

What?

So, which of the values that I listed as something you pursue for its own sake (and not a means, like money) equates to the end of evolution...
Is it beauty? How about excellence? Pleasure? Insight? Experience? Understanding?

Which one is the end of evolution?


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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:08 pm

The average "thinker", modern man, manimal, cannot begin to understand Nietzsche's Ubermenschen, without first undrestanding the biological mechanics of need and resentiment.

Mo doesn't understand need. His brain is like that of a spoiled child's. He may never understand need, until a major catastrophe happens, and wakes his brain up.

However knowing the brain of these ILP leftovers all too well. Sometimes not even chaos and death will wake their minds up. They'll stick their heads in the sand until the very end. No remorse, no guilt, no shame. Proud in their ignorance.

These types simply don't want to learn about life, existence, the universe. Life haters. Haters of knowledge and wisdom.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:12 pm

I despise open-ended realities.
I feel insecure, afraid, uncertain...
I need finality, certitude, an absolute end.

Here's a box...
we enter the box.

Mission completed.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:26 pm

Satyr wrote:
I need finality, certitude, an absolute end.

'End' doesn't mean finality, dumb fuck. It means a goal/purpose.

And none of it is about absolutes.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:36 pm

Mo wrote:
I wish your post has less insult and more substance.

It would, if you approached it in the right manner.


Quote :
No, it's not. According to Nietzsche, the ubermensch is the meaning of the earth, and a goal for you. You are to be a bridge to the ubermensch. That's a goal, from your perspective, not a means.

'Overcoming as always the goal' is what characterizes the Overman as a Dionysian aesthetic.

Quote :
Whatever goals the Ubermensch has, beyond himself, is never said.

See what I mean by 'ridiculous'...

So, just because he did not say what an overman would will, As If, not its own self-overcoming means it isn't implied or cannot be gleaned? What??

Quote :

Quote :
Its funny how you are even arguing not only against infinite regress, but now also for the end of evolution, and saying you are no nihilist..

What?

So, which of the values that I listed as something you pursue for its own sake (and not a means, like money) equates to the end of evolution...

I was referring to your saying the ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch.

That is arresting evolution. The overman is not an ends in itself.

The meaning of the earth is the spirit of overcoming which is always a means-to -  growth, expansion, assertion, etc. which Is life.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:54 pm

Lyssa wrote:
'Overcoming as always the goal' is what characterizes the Overman as a Dionysian aesthetic.

Then 'overcoming' is an end, because all 'end' means is a goal/purpose. 'End' means goal/purpose, NOT some static final state. Everything you said is based on that misunderstanding.

Quote :
The meaning of the earth is the spirit of overcoming which is always a means-to - growth, expansion, assertion, etc. which Is life.

No, if you are overcoming just for the sake of overcoming, then overcoming is your 'end', your goal.

Quote :
I was referring to your saying the ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch.

It's not, from your perspective. Your goal, if you follow Nietzsche, is the Ubermensch. To you, from your perspective, the ubermensch is the meaning of the earth, and a goal.

You are trying to perch yourself from a place and see through nobody's eyes, except maybe the universe as a whole's.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:59 pm

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
'Overcoming as always the goal' is what characterizes the Overman as a Dionysian aesthetic.

Then 'overcoming' is an end, because all 'end' means is a goal/purpose. 'End' means goal/purpose, NOT some static final state. Everything you said is based on that misunderstanding.

No. Overcoming is not the "purpose" of/for overcoming. Overcoming is a means-to more efficient power. Life tends to max. self-organizing.

Quote :

Quote :
The meaning of the earth is the spirit of overcoming which is always a means-to - growth, expansion, assertion, etc. which Is life.

No, if you are overcoming just for the sake of overcoming, then overcoming is your 'end', your goal.

Which is not what I am saying.

Quote :

Quote :
I was referring to your saying the ubermensch is not a means to the uber-ubermensch.

It's not, from your perspective. Your goal, if you follow Nietzsche, is the Ubermensch. To you, from your perspective, the ubermensch is the meaning of the earth, and a goal.

You are trying to perch yourself from a place and see through nobody's eyes, except maybe the universe as a whole's.

Man is a bridge to the Overman and the Overman is a "bridge-to", "means-to",... an evolutionary process.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:02 pm

Lyssa wrote:
No. Overcoming is not the "purpose" of/for overcoming. Overcoming is a means-to more efficient power. Life tends to max. self-organizing.

Then "more efficient power" is your end/goal. And once you realize that, I'll change it for you. (Power, like money, represents a means).

Quote :
Man is a bridge to the Overman and the Overman is a "bridge-to", "means-to",...  an evolutionary process.

Then that evolutionary process is your end/goal. That's such a detached, impersonal, non-perspectival standpoint. As if you cared about the procreation of everybody all at once...

But, regardless, you should get the point, by now.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:09 pm

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
No. Overcoming is not the "purpose" of/for overcoming. Overcoming is a means-to more efficient power. Life tends to max. self-organizing.

Then "more efficient power" is your end/goal. And once you realize that, I'll change it for you. (Power, like money, represents a means).

Not "my" end/goal, but it is The goal of life itself.

Quote :

Quote :
Man is a bridge to the Overman and the Overman is a "bridge-to", "means-to",...  an evolutionary process.

Then that evolutionary process is your end/goal.

Not "my" end/goal, but it is The goal of life itself.

Not the same as saying as if power were some random variable I pick, alongside your picking beauty, excellence, etc.


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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:30 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Mo wrote:
Then "more efficient power" is your end/goal. And once you realize that, I'll change it for you. (Power, like money, represents a means).

Not "my" end/goal, but it is The goal of life itself.

How is it that YOUR end/goal is not the same as that of life itself, as you are just an instance of life itself.

Step inside of yourself.

Quote :
Not the same as saying as if power were some random variable I pick, alongside your picking beauty, excellence, etc.

You declared an 'end'. (Even if it's not yours). So, thank you, we've made progress, right?

Power means an "ability-to". When I want power, it is only for the ability that it gets me to pursue something further. For example, I wouldn't want money, if there was nothing I wanted to spend it on. --And, likewise, I wouldn't want power, if it weren't for the obvious values that I find embodied in the world, and which power lets me achieve (or create). Hence, I think of power as a means to excellence, insight, beauty, etc...
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:19 am

My god what stupidity.

The noumenon confused for the phenomenon.
The noetic, the interpretation, abstraction, sensation, of the phenomenon, via a medium, is now an end to the phenomenon.
It is THE end, because in the human mind it exists in its simplified/generalized, static form.

God now replaced by some other term denoting some absolute object/objective.
The overman, as an indication of a different species, an ascent above the human, understood as the Jesus archetype...the end of human nature - godliness achieved.
One is resurrected by going "over", ascending into the divine perfection of the Ideal.
THE END.

Some sacred Being.
The "over" indicating over it all.
Not over human nature, but over existence, over nature altogether, over life, over the cosmos, over time and space.
There is nowhere to go after one has moved beyond the human.
Above the human?
God.
The Beyond time/space.
The sacred end, where nothing else remains.
An existential ceiling.  

To a dog a human might appear as something divine, something incomprehensible, something godly.
The end of evolution.
Have not secular humanists claimed that man stopped evolving 200,000 years ago, to justify their assertion that the races are all equal in all areas of potential?

Beauty as absolute symmetry....no increasing levels of beauty, no illusion of perfection from a forgiving distance, but beauty attained in the moment where consciousness, despite its limitations, finds completion in its own simplifying conceptions.
Not beauty maintained in entropic decay, as an ordering preserved with effort.

The object/objective is frozen in space/time...a statue not decomposing as it tries to represent perfection, but the very end of beauty itself.
The perfect, the Platonic eidos, carved out of marble by a human hand.  

All in the mind...a generalizing, simplifying abstraction, that eliminates, sometimes selectively, leaving behind an ambiguity, trapped in a frozen state in the mind that so desperately wants finality.
Approach the statue to see its subtle imperfections, imitating, using artistry, what can never be attained; where the beautiful is not completed yet.

Pleasure not as a level of need, decreased suddenly or gradually and sensed as a relief...but as some cosmic end point, where the conscious mind makes it an object/objective and this means that if the conscious mind is absorbed, distracted, by the relieving instance, the apparent, that all existence ends, it has stopped.
Consciousness being absorbed by the phenomenon means all entropy has ceased, and the purpose for consciousness evolving, at all has been gratified in that momentary absorption by the object/objective....an object/objective which is never attained and never perfect.    

Consider the satiating bliss of feeding after a long period of fasting - because pleasure is accentuated by depravity, and minimized by superfluity...given that it is a degree of need, not its abolition.
In the moment the mind is absorbed by the sensations, in a state of meditative narcosis, an endorphin rush clouding consciousness, numb to the world to some degree, and yet its need has no ended, as the stomach contains a now full source of energies, being pulled at by a Becoming that needs constantly.
Similar to a junky's fix, his consciousness is numbed, totally absorbed by the sensation of utter bliss, his brain drugged with chemical joy, unaware that he is, at that very moment, still in a state of agon...and only oblivious to it.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:39 pm

Mo wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
Mo wrote:
Then "more efficient power" is your end/goal. And once you realize that, I'll change it for you. (Power, like money, represents a means).

Not "my" end/goal, but it is The goal of life itself.

How is it that YOUR end/goal is not the same as that of life itself, as you are just an instance of life itself.

Step inside of yourself.

In the sense it is not only mine, it is the end/goal of everything in this world. It is also YOUR end/goal whether you acknowledge it or not.

Quote :

Quote :
Not the same as saying as if power were some random variable I pick, alongside your picking beauty, excellence, etc.

You declared an 'end'. (Even if it's not yours). So, thank you, we've made progress, right?


Power means an "ability-to". When I want power, it is only for the ability that it gets me to pursue something further. For example, I wouldn't want money, if there was nothing I wanted to spend it on. --And, likewise, I wouldn't want power, if it weren't for the obvious values that I find embodied in the world, and which power lets me achieve (or create). Hence, I think of power as a means to excellence, insight, beauty, etc...


I am not going to repeat what I have already said about power and telos on the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:55 pm

I'm not, either.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:01 pm

Maybe we can reduce all of western Christian history to the pursuit of pleasure, and, why not, science, and the scientific method to masturbation.
Morality = pleasure.
Good feels good.
All morality is hedonistic.

Discovery feels good so why not, call it hedonism?

What the hell, what does it matter when one can use any word to define the absent absolute?

Let's call it Bob and say the end is BOB.

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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:23 am

An unsupervised niglet, prospective felon and parasite, is about to get nailed by a vehicle; all you would have to do is reach down and pick him up to save him: would you act instinctively, attend to moving him out of harms way, or would you step back and bask in the anticipation and glory of his demise?
Costs are overt here, as well as potential attack from his nigger parents.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:45 am

See, the way the common mind works is that if you had to hurt someone in order to save them from a larger pain, such as kicking a boy in the stomach to knock him out of the way from getting hit by a truck, you would still have to explain and defend your actions because all that immediately occupies them is that you just kicked the shit out of someone.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:48 am

And if you didn't act to aid someone in threat, then you would get hell for that too: it's a lose-lose circumstance. That's why acting out of your own awareness defeats acting out of, to please, others.
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PostSubject: Re: A question for everyone here. - Altruism Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:56 am

Hrodebert wrote:
And if you didn't act to aid someone in threat, then you would get hell for that too: it's a lose-lose circumstance. That's why acting out of your own awareness defeats acting out of, to please, others.

It's understandable how simple minded but well taken care of people would never understand the larger implications of how the abundance of benefits that go to them are related to the sever deprivation of others, yet it seems most people would eventually be in at least a few situations where another's life directly and immediately depended on them risking their own well being, and that if they perceived those situations as they were, they would learn from experience the difficulties you express.

Being the small number of people at any age who seem to have learned from them it's apparent that many are oblivious to them. One may ask how that could be so, because in failing to act others would seemingly confront them. Perhaps their obliviousness is apparent in a sense.

When people without such a dismal perception find themselves in such a situation they weigh the potential costs of choosing to act or not and should they choose not to act they may be overly self-conscious and so as they distance themselves from the situation, pretending not to have noticed, others may perceive this. But concerning sheltered imbeciles, they can't fathom the reality of such situations, so far from looking guilty, they may actually be the first to blame others around them of cowardice once the danger of helping is past.

One may ask why people are so perceptive of others' guilt, but not of others' danger and how they can alleviate it. Perhaps social conditioning is the key. Many spend much time constantly looking for what flatters, and so they soon learn to detect a guiltily demeanor in others.
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