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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Morality Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:36 am

Rooted in the (inter)active processes of attraction/repulsion morality expresses this organic relationship with a world it gradually emerges within and becomes aware of.

Moving through the development of multi-cellular organisms towards necessary rules of conduct between them, naturally selecting behaviors that facilitate them, they then acquire an ethical code to manage complex, heterogeneous populations, contrary to genetically established dispositions.
If the development necessitates a behavior that contradicts naturally evolved behaviors, it constructs an external icon, an abstraction, to help in their repression and control.
At this point morality becomes authoritarian, domineering, attempting to strip away centuries of evolved behavior so as to assimilate the "individual" organism into a super-organic structure, just as the less sophisticated cell has been assimilated into more sophisticated organisms.

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PostSubject: Re: Morality Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:48 am


Sam Harris perfectly displays the danger of taking metaphors to their extreme.
This is where I've placed the noumenon/phenomenon divide.
The only place where mind/body can attach to world, or detach from it on its weakest point.
Where Nihilism insets itself in the only way it can, as symbol/word, and inverts the process in a relieving way, seductive and attractive to all those that cannot cope with the world.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], as representation of noumenon, is the product of the nervous system - the connector of mind/body.
It either connects the mind to the physical, the body, the apparent, or it detaches, returning back to what it has already accumulated and stored as memory, manipulating it to construct fantastic abstractions.
Memory, like genes, are noetic codified experiences.
And like genes they can lie dormant as latent potentials, not necessarily to benefit the organism.
Environment can trigger latent genetic disposition, as it can trigger a memories, into cascades of sensations, or like DNA memories can accumulate, remaining dormant until a triggering memory makes them active.
The metaphor can either be a mechanism of connecting with world, or of projecting into world accumulated memories, triggered by an event, or spilling forth as relieving by unburdening the mind; covering world with a convenient and comforting shell of abstractions.
nervous system, and its extension symbol/word acts as a conduit from world and towards it.
Herein lies the danger of confusing your own abstractions, coming from your pool of accumulated memories, projected outwards as a form of defiance, for the world itself, triggering the creation of abstractions founded on accumulated memories.

Peterson, perfectly displays the value of metaphor as a way of simplifying memories, the past, to a form the mind can process and use....and the common man can comprehend without any deeper understanding of world and his place in it.
This is, also, where the danger lies. The common man, lacking an understanding of self and world, confuses the metaphor for the real, or takes the word literally.
What is a tool for exploiting simplicity, and controlling the masses, making complex civilization possible, is also the point of weakness, where exploitation of this same simplicity can lead to disaster.
Harris approaches the subject from a scientific vantage point, of reason (Apollonian), and Peterson form a more artistic organic perspective (Dionysian), so their convergence on the topic of truth as it relates to religion and spirituality, is one of chaos in relation to order, one placing more emphasis on lucidity, trusting reason, and the other on intuition, trusting instinct.
Where one compensates for the absence of depth with clarity, the other compensates for the absence of clarity with depth, where depth remains defined in terms of possibility, so depth indicates a larger pool of memories, genetic and/or memetic, which remain vague, and reason indicates their illumination, their exposure to the present, in the form of understanding, or perceiving patterns that bring it forth as distinct.
Peterson takes past, and compares it to present, seeking patterns that connects them into a single motif, whereas Harris takes the present and seeking in past a precedent, and both are trying to find underlying patterns to bind all patterns into a single construct, a continuum connecting all experiences/memories.

Memes finding in genes primordial experiences.
Peterson understanding the memetic present from the perspective of a canon of genetics, delivered in the form of metaphors, and Harris understanding the genetic present from the perspective of a memetic past.

This dual possibility of toward mind, from world, and towards world, from mind, is where the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  divide can be found, and where [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] process can be inverted to meme<>gene, which is also where I place my definition of 'artificial' in relation to 'natural'.

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PostSubject: Re: Morality Mon May 15, 2017 7:20 am

I remember hearing about a conflict in morality about whether or not a person having the capacity for violence over another constituted intimidation. That is, just being stronger means you have an extra obligation to appear unthreatening or to not be so strong.

One side says that capacity does not mean "responsibility". Just because you have the capacity for force, it doesn't mean you'll act on it. The other says it is problematic.

Does anyone know the technical term for this or whom had a discussion like this?
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PostSubject: Re: Morality Mon May 15, 2017 7:38 am

I think you mentioned having such a discussion with your professor some months ago, if I'm not mistaken. I don't recall the term (if there is one), you might want to search your posts.

It appears to be the classic case of projecting intention on the other and thus shifting responsibility for their own emotional state on them. "You made me feel X, so you must have meant to made me feel X".

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PostSubject: Re: Morality Tue May 23, 2017 1:40 pm

I wonder if morality is necessarily quantitative/utilitarian because there are two aspects involved:

The "immoral" person whom is greedy, does "bad" through stealing or other things.
However, the same person does "good" by seeking to preserve themselves (at least Christian wise "God's Temple").

The latter can even be argued as a humanist egalitarian modern position. Deceitfuls would behave this way by saying they are good for the latter when they do the former.

To combine, one would think a liberal egalitarian utilitarian perspective is an answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Morality Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:47 am

Morality refers to how organism's relate to one another.
Morality beyond this is meaningless.

What universal morality refers to is how social organism's evolved behavioral dispositions facilitating group cohesion.
Proto-morality begins in heterosexual cooperation, where one specialized form (gender) needs the other to carry out its function.
Heterosexuality had to evolve specific sexual traits to facilitate this dependence on another specialized form.
It later evolved into a behavior that made cooperative unities possible.
Morality as man understands it, refers to organisms that evolved codependent methods of survival, requiring specific attitudes, behaviors, actions.
Ethos refers to the encoding of these social relationships, or method of inter-relating. Morality is a particular's memes bonding (assimilating, absorbing, integrating) mechanism.  

Beyond this, the concept of 'morality' is nonsensical, and a form of anthropomorphic projection.
How patterned and non-pattered energies interact, relate, is not based on morality, but their very essence, and how it relates, compares to that of another patterned (order), or non-patterned (chaos, random) energy.
A morality can come bring into conflict the genetic code with a memetic, to the degree that the latter is nihilistic, or contradicts an evolved behavioral predisposition...or to the degree that the ethical code contradicts the natural (past, precedent), or experienced world.
Morality, like 'love', like 'human' is not a magical, mystical concept. These words refer to evolved behavior, and therefore only have meaning in relation to living organisms using cooperative methods of reproduction and survival.

Any other application of these words, or many others hijacked by nihilistic ideologies, is motivated by the desire to detach them from their references to observable, phenomenal, apparent, activities, and to convert them into mystical, noetic, abstractions.
This has been done to words like, 'love', 'human', 'one', 'sex', 'race'....and, of course 'morality'.
The desire to detach and to invert, is part of nihilism's and how it attempts to cope with a world it detests and is afraid of.

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PostSubject: Re: Morality Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:31 am

If we study morality from the bottom<>up, from its grounding on the earth, in reality, in genes, and then advance upwards towards abstractions, the memetic, we associate the concept with a kind of behaviour having to do with organized life.

We start from the first unity, or organization, the organism and realize that it is a cooperative of cells.
in this case morality finds its grounding in organic processes, referring to good/bad, or valuable and worthless to the organism....or similar to one or more patterns participating in the unity we call self.
In this cooperate congruence of patterns good/bad means useful, useless - edible/inedible.


From this grounding we can proceed upwards towards the gradual evolution of social behavior, which proceeds after an individual organism has already evolved.
This survival strategy will now impose a restriction to already evolved behaviors.
We see this emergence of morality in social organisms who must tolerate, cooperate, with one another - coexist, using one another for support - synergy.
Before social behavior we have heterosexual reproduction, which also imposes a tolerance of otherness to facilitate the process.
Social behavior builds upon this to maintain harmonious coexistence between similar types.
Good/Bad now refers to behaviors that promote or inhibit efficiency or harmonious coexistence - increasing or decreasing the individuals survival and reproductive potential.


Man takes this and codifies it by making it a law that is imposed upon the group, from elsewhere - above, beyond.
Once this is achieved the moral laws can be detached from organic processes and may even contradict them...such as monogamy moral laws inhibiting naturally evolved human promiscuity.
We call the encoding of naturally evolving behaviors that promote coexistence, ethical rules to differentiate them from naturally evolved behaviors created through natural selection - trial and error.


Without this process of connecting the word 'morality' to a observable, pre-societal, behavior, we permit the maintenance of the concept as a abstraction that can mean anything, to anyone, for any reason.
The world now imposes a limit on how we are to understand the concept morality, starting with how it emerges, naturally, before man emerges, or creates modern social systems.
We recognize moral behavior as a social behavior that many species exhibit.
The connection of human behavior with other species behavior helps us discern what elements are added onto it by man, but more importantly it creates a foundation from which we can build our understanding of human ethical codes - genes to memes.
Using the genetic foundation, across species lines, we can discern how man enhances, or corrupts moral behavior using memes.

The word 'morality' cannot mean anything, nor can it mean anything the individual wants it to mean...because phenomena, in the form of cross species behavior, activity, imposes a restriction on human noetic constructs, if the human mind is honest in his intent and not a degenerate using words to comfort and delude himself.

We can accomplish the same with many other words being hijacked and corrupted by degenerates.

The connection of the word, referring to the concept, is now not up to human whims, but must adhere top behavior outside the control of human will.
Morality is connected to its foundations, found in species independent from human contrivances, and then we gradually and carefully build up towards modern applications of ethical standards, exposing the corrupting effect nihilistic psychosis in the process.

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PostSubject: Re: Morality Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:09 pm

Roots of morality in social species.



Morality could only have evolved as a behaviour that enabled such cooperative social structures to emerge and to be effective.
In social species survival is externalized, gradually developing in the human who can completely overcome his primal drive to survive.
Good/Bad are the product of this externalization, and have no meaning outside life or living organisms relating to existence.
Levels of Cognition.
This externalization of self, is how mother bonds with offspring, and individuals bond into a cohesive group.
Eventually it leads to the creation of God, as the epitome of externalized self.

Self = sum total of past, connected by memory.
Memory is what unifies past into a one, a single continuum.
Without memory, such as DNA, there is no self.
Any disruption of the continuum is an end of self - death.

Bonding associates self with other - imprinting.
This association is founded on perceived similarities of other with self (know thyself).
Simpler, less sophisticated, awareness leads to broader associations; more sophisticated awareness leads to more restrictive, discriminating associations.      


Moral behavior evolved because it offers a genetic advantage to those individuals that participate in cooperative survival strategies.
The reaction is instinctive and requires no mental processing, other than what is required in the application, or the act.
Humans, having evolved the mental trait of long-term memory and projecting past into future, can contemplate the behavior, or act, after-the-fact.

Memory also allows for a larger pool of experiences to produce reciprocity.
Positive/Negative experiences accumulating and held in memory, either consciously or sub-consciously, resulting in a automatic positive, or negative, reaction to other.

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PostSubject: Re: Morality Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:18 pm


Morality as an evolved quality of social, cooperative, survival strategies.
Heterosexual reproduction is a prerequisite.

The individual is willing to risk intimate self, for self perceived as similarity in other, as otherness.
That which exceeds is outside self - transedent.
Without this the mother/child bond is impossible, and cooperative survival strategies cannot evolve.
This is how 'love' becomes associated with transcending body, or the physical, and becomes a spiritual idea(l).

Man, of course, goes a step further seeing self in an abstraction an idea(l), where other is not necessary.
Association of self with this idea(l).
Only man can risk, or sacrifice self for other, and for an idea(l) - the idea(l) associated with the divine, the godly, the higher: transcending corporeality, and genetics.
At this point a total breach is possible - the detachment of self from past/nature, and the identification of self as idea(l).

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