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 Fixed and Value Ontology

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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:24 am

Lyssa wrote:


From 14:00 - 18:00,,,

you can see they themselves say, esp. @18 they specifically clarify by the self-valuing of a rock, they do Not mean human consciousness or human valuing in the normal sense we understand.

Nietzsche says,

"Against determinism and teleology.- From the fact that something ensues regularly and ensues calculably, it does not follow that it ensues necessarily. That a quantum of force determines and conducts itself in every particular case in one way and manner does not make it into an "unfree will." "Mechanical necessity" is not a fact: it is we who first interpreted it into events. We have interpreted the forrnulatable character of everits as the consequence of a necessity that rules over events. But from the fact that I do a certain thing, it by no means follows that I am compelled to do it. Compulsion in things certainly cannot be demonstrated: the rule proves only that one and the same event is not another event as well." [WTP, 552]

"All events, all motion, all becoming, as a determination of degrees and relations of force, as a struggle-" [WTP, 552]

"Against apparent "necessity":
-this is only an expression for the fact that a force is not also something else." [WTP, 552]


Whether the organic or inorganic world, at every minute there is a quanta of force, a "relation" of "decisive" forces by which a power manifests in a certain configuration and cannot exceed that configuration. That force cannot also be something else. This retentive logic is what gives the apple its appleness from the orange.
Needless to say, the appleness of the apple is our mind abstracting that 'logical necessity' as a pattern by which it is what it is and not something else.

In the video, they call it the "cohesive force" that keeps an entity together as that entity - the rock is that value of rockness - and to destroy its suchness is a "violation of its nature" as they call it.

This is also what is known as Dharma or "law" - not that laws exist as a valuing conscious entity, but "the rule proves only that one and the same event is not another event as well."

In Apollonian paradigm, "value" is a "strict" term for the product of will and consciousness... how they mean it is more in the sense of dharma.

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:28 am

No cohesive force, dear.
The rock is in the midst of (inter)acting, it is not keeping itself together.
It is, in fact, deteriorating, as we observe it.

We, as consciousness, make it into a unity and then declare it willful, or godly, or self-whatever.
We, as consciousness, construct its supposed unity, which is entirely incidental, when it comes to inanimate matter and not living matter.
Only life can will and value (judge); only life can be accused of believing in self, of pursuing an identity, an idea(l), an object/objective.

Law is a human term meaning patterns of (inter)action.  

Glad you admitted your affiliation.
We are attracted to what is most like us, if we love self...if not we are attracted to what is less like us and what promises to compensate for what we perceive as lacking in us.
As a result our affections alter, in time...particularly when they begin with a erroneous appreciation of self.

I don't mind...
My greatest value is honesty.
It's why I become vitriolic...to bring it out in those who hide from it.

So, thank you.

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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:58 am

Satyr wrote:
No cohesive force, dear.
The rock is in the midst of (inter)acting, it is not keeping itself together.
It is, in fact, deteriorating, as we observe it.


A cohesive force is what on this forum we have referred to as a congruence, an emerging unity that tries to maintain itself as a certain rate of flow relative to our perception.

My intellectual capacity is one matter, my intellectual integrity is another matter; anyone who is truly honest will not collapse the nuance between the two.

The attack on my capacity is more than welcome, not the latter.

Like I said, do carry on,,, because my only affiliation is to self-honesty.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:14 pm

Cohesion only requires the "self" which is constructing it as a singular thing.
It need not be innate in the phenomenon.

This your agreement with the Fixed.

The only self I acknowledge is the living organism which is, itself, an incomplete unity.

The tone is not self=cohesive, it is (inter)acting, discovered in the midst of ts particular (inter)action in time/space.
Th mind makes it a thing, a one.

Your integrity was not assaulted.
Self-Honesty is a matter of self-knowledge.

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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:24 pm

Satyr wrote:
Cohesion only requires the "self" which is constructing it as a singular thing.
It need not be innate in the phenomenon.

This your agreement with the Fixed.


Their definition of cohesion as per their video, was "violation" of its suchness, what violates and splits its congruence.

You can interpret me whichever way.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:38 pm

Then they are projecting their "suchness" as being willful, or part of some universal motive.

As "such" everything perceived can be "evaluated", using self, as part of a grand scheme, some unifying law.
And so you've found your own.


Lyssa wrote:
You can interpret me whichever way.

Thanks, I will, as I always have, whether you approve or give me the "right" or not.

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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:48 pm

Satyr wrote:
Then they are projecting their "suchness" as being willful, or part of some universal motive.

As "such" everything perceived can be "evaluated", using self, as part of a grand scheme, some unifying law.

Its not for no reason, I'd titled that thread as the "Hyperreality of the Humanarchization of VO".

I had already made a list of their statements to expose their hedonistic liberal/sec.humanist/libertarian agenda, at a time that suited me...

Video wrote:
@52:00 - we are not saying things need to be this way or that way, but to make you more aware of this is what you have valued.

@56 - "same incentives" as xt., marxism, etc. need to be installed into humans but without turning into institutions. VO lets how we relate to each other to keep the unity.

@1:02:14 - The challenge is to affirm your own group wthout rejecting any other group

@1:03 - a mature identity doesn't divide into classes, but that we are a part of this group because we see something of value in it and not because we hate the other; we are just distinct.

@1:05 - we are giving them power to empower themselves

@1:06 - it is not relativism because it is objectively true for each subjective being; my subjective experience is what it is - it is reality for me, your values are no less than your very existence. not valued by some universal agenda or world order. they are creating the world as they explicate their values. if valuing is all that exists,, you effectively allow other beings to grow... many worlds grow and become possible.

@1:09 - what are your core values and how do you make those values thrive? there will be more joy in the world, living more fulfilled lives, we'll achieve more.

@1:11 - if you change how you approach the world, it will literally change your eyes.


...but pls. dont spare me any credit; I want none of it.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:00 pm

Your kindness was tasty.
I'm sure you've offered me no less of a "free pass".

I speak of reality, not politics, or how to trick others to "maintain unity".
Did anyone say Strauss was not hiding his agenda?

This comes after you perceive what is.

Is your Dharma their humanism?
You sound very close to Fixed.
Maybe he can fix you well.
Maybe you've been broken.

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:25 pm

I guess philosophy has transformed.
From a discipline exploring 'what is' it has become a discipline of 'how much of this can we endure, and then share, and admit, so as to preserve the environment that protects us from what is'.

I guess consensus has been reached, and all that is left is deciding what we tell the retards, and how much we disclose to not turn them mad with desperation.
If that's the case, I'm for anything that provides that narcotic.

So, what the fuck, why not God, or rocks that self-value, because they want to "keep it together, maaaan", dogs that speak, burning bushes, woman and men being the same, appearances do not matter, changing my mind changes the universe, curing cancer using math, and so on and so forth?

Let's be polite about it.
No hint of our disdain.
All "civil" and shit.
The more civil the more we sacrifice to their stupidity.
Let's not hurt them.

I mean...why, fuckin' not?
Let's just say anything to keep every damn imbecile out there from going insane.  
Then, let's invite them to KT and share the good news.
It's all subjective!!!!
We are all valuable.
There's some power keeping it all ordered.

Why not?

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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:48 pm

Satyr wrote:
Is your Dharma their humanism?

It isn't the same, and if you had paid attention, you'd have read me pointing out to their obfuscation on this very point between Dharma and Humanism:

Lys wrote:
"Plutonic in-tensity is a rigorous selecting standard that aims to hold max. dharmas IN their max. dharma and not As their max. dharma. Get it?"


...then again, your question mark was really superfluous, an act of reciprocal kindness on your part like you were really asking me,, when in fact, you have already concluded as such.
 

Quote :
You sound very close to Fixed.

The man wants to elude committing to certain answers,, and I can Afford to be patient - if someone wants to misconstrue that as my not wanting to hurt him, my love for him,,,,,,,, pls. dont stop yourself.

Also, don't forget to share with all, how much I want to f--- little Erik, that hot, primordiality of his throbbing cock swinging at me. I'm very easily seduced, as you know me too well. Don't forget to reveal the revelations your paranoia has first imported into me. It...



Don't forget to call me a slut.

Quote :
Maybe he can fix you well.

No one makes me cum out like you do, after your importation.

Quote :
Maybe you've been broken.

You mean exactly like how you would compliment a vampire knowing that is exactly what it wants? You mean I forgot to give you credit for your copyright? Shoot me.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*


Last edited by Lyssa on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:49 pm

One thing is this. Who on earth can take from me what I do not want to give.
Another is this. What is the worth of having managed to take something from me that I did not want to give.

- x -

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:01 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Satyr wrote:
Is your Dharma their humanism?

It isn't the same, and if you had paid attention, you'd have read me pointing out to their obfuscation on this very point between Dharma and Humanism:

Lys wrote:
"Plutonic in-tensity is a rigorous selecting standard that aims to hold max. dharmas IN their max. dharma and not As their max. dharma. Get it?"


...then again, your question mark was really superfluous, an act of reciprocal kindness on your part like you were really asking me,, when in fact, you have already concluded as such.
 

Quote :
You sound very close to Fixed.

Sorry, I do not follow your metaphorical poetry.
I can't be bothered by such pretentious crap.
Suns and Saturn and Pluto and my ass mooning you.

Oh, I know what the turd is doing, I just want you to bring it out of him without me standing in your way, dear.
Those "chosen" always use positivity as bait for their egomania.

Lyssa wrote:
The man wants to elude committing to certain answers,, and I can Afford to be patient - if someone wants to misconstrue that as my not wanting to hurt him, my love for him,,,,,,,, pls. dont stop yourself.

Still...how kind you've been with him.
How soft.
A history there.

Lyssa wrote:
Also, don't forget to share with all, how much I want to f--- little Erik, that hot, primordiality of his throbbing cock swinging at me. I'm very easily seduced, as you know me too well. Don't forget to reveal the revelations your paranoia has first imported into me. It...

I was going to keep that a secret, along with the truth about you living in Toronto.
Ha!!

Lyssa wrote:
Don't forget to call me a slut.

Mmmmm, you taste so wonderful dear.
He also smells it.

Lyssa wrote:
No one makes me cum out like you do, after your importation.

Liar.

Lyssa wrote:
You mean exactly like how you would compliment a vampire knowing that is exactly what it wants?

Yes...because you can't fight this dis-ease with honesty, dear.

Lyssa wrote:
You mean I forgot to give you credit for your copyright? Shoot me.

Oh, sweets, you keep on thinking of me as one of those you are used to.
I want no copyright, dear...only you doing as you do, being as you are.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:17 pm

Lyssa wrote:
One thing is this. Who on earth can take from me what I do not want to give.
Another is this. What is the worth of having managed to take something from me that I did not want to give.

- x -  

Orgasming right back at them, baby.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:43 pm

Is FC the man with blonde hair and red beard?
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:55 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
One thing is this. Who on earth can take from me what I do not want to give.
Another is this. What is the worth of having managed to take something from me that I did not want to give.

- x -  

Orgasming right back at them, baby.


That's not what I'm talking about; dear.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:58 pm

Oh, neither am I. I'm speaking me-ta-pho-ri-cal-ly.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:04 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Oh, neither am I. I'm speaking me-ta-pho-ri-cal-ly.

Oh Xanthippe,,, its still not what I mean. Wink

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:10 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is having a field-day over at ILP...in the den of the...Moderns.

That's my girl.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:35 pm

You ought to give her a cracker Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:39 pm

No, dear....her reward is elsewhere.
You go off and find the crackers....Polly.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:40 pm

No crackers, I'm a carnivore.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:41 am

Who will be the first to drink from the mead cup?
Wink
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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:29 pm

phoneutria wrote:

Satyr wrote:

Your affection for him is cute.


His for her as well. Adorable. I love to watch.




- - -


Satyr wrote:


phoneutria wrote:
Satyr wrote:

Your affection for him is cute.

His for her as well. Adorable. I love to watch.


It's obvious.
Particularly when she defends his views, trying to associate them with mine to protect my ego, and when he goes to great lengths to seduce her away from the despicable Satyr, who has brainwashed her with his lies.
Although I think he cannot quite figure it out, so he assumes whatever.

It's subtle, but there.


- - -

Quote :

[01:55:35 03/12/14] phoneutria : I think you are upsetting lyssa with your outburst of emotion, dear
[01:55:56 03/12/14] @ Satyr : really?
[01:58:39 03/12/14] phoneutria : it is most uncalled fore
[01:58:41 03/12/14] phoneutria : for


----------------------



You can see how she smoothly adds fuel to the fire first, someone she knows at that point will be ready and all too happy to jump on her bandwagon,,, and then in chat, will also be the one to admonish him as if he's gone out of his way, Correcting him,,, when its she who fanned it in him in the first place...

She can't find self-validation unless she exists as one who Corrects others,,, and she can't Correct someone unless she pushes them off trajectory first... and can then appear as the "sensible one" who advises others of proper measure..

On this basis,, will rest her argument of how, Civilization is great and "there are places where women is superior"  and if men don't recognize and listen to women,,, then everything suffers.

Understand the "stupidity" of her convolution.

She argues for female superiority after "correcting", "cooling down" the provocation and the fire she fans...

And I'm the one who's "easily seducible"?? Maybe news to some, but not so. Not by man or woman.
She may go unnoticed and get to everyone on this forum and elsewhere, but she'll never get to me...   she Knows she can't and that's why tries relentlessly.

Of course, when your own home is in shambles,, you look outward, and "Improving the world" is what you do.
If someone wants to jump on her bandwagon and high-five one another in agreement on my motives and relationships, by all means knock yourselves out,,, I have no time for this level of infantilism.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:07 pm

Brazilians and their "novelas"... phoneutria likes to add friction and tries to push things over the edge so things might "go back to normal"( i.e. where things go back to being lukewarm)... She can't handle relationships that are too hot or too cold, where edges become finer at extreme temperatures...So it's all a bit ridiculous that someone like this going to "upset" a much colder relationship... Also, I don't think she believes she was really getting to Satyr but she probably secretly wished she did (i.e. more potential gossip for her to spread if her little timely interjection proves "successful")
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Is it not entertaining to simply watch her spin her webs?

You have to watch where she posts, on ILP, and what she says.
She's, always, there, hovering, with a string coming from her but, attaching to one or the other fence rung....ready to fall to the ground or scurry up in any which way.

She wants to prove women are smarter by manipulating men...she finds such pleasure every time she thinks she done it.

The "I don't come here for you" is part of her hunger.
Then the "blue collar" comments and the "you are not like Hannibal" chirps.
All to get a response...every response a private victory.

She cares not about philosophy because the only world she cares about is the human one...where she thinks of herself as special.

Recall her first entry....
You cannot ignore me...she said...or something like that.
You can see it when she taunts: "ignore me"
Like a tick who feels powerful when it makes a horse react by whipping its tail.

The home provides few emotional sources for feeding....
She needs to feel the pain in herself, externalized.
She wants to see it express itself before her.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:39 pm

Oh please, don't even warrant these puerile comments of mine with an answer. It is just for sport. Carry on as you are Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:55 pm

Mind it if I show the kids the full exchange?

Quote :
[13:55:35 02/12/14] phoneutria : I think you are upsetting lyssa with your outburst of emotion, dear

[13:55:56 02/12/14] @ Satyr : really?

[13:58:39 02/12/14] phoneutria : it is most uncalled fore

[13:58:41 02/12/14] phoneutria : for

[13:59:46 02/12/14] @ Satyr : It's all for your eyes, dear.

[14:03:16 02/12/14] Arditezza : Afternoon.

[14:03:28 02/12/14] phoneutria : a little comedy?

[14:03:47 02/12/14] @ Satyr : Is it funny?

[14:04:10 02/12/14] Arditezza : I am not sure that I find it funny.

[14:04:22 02/12/14] phoneutria : is it funny to you... is the question

[14:04:37 02/12/14] @ Satyr : You tell me

[14:04:57 02/12/14] phoneutria : it's histerical

[14:05:02 02/12/14] phoneutria : Wink

Does it sound like I am trying to correct someone, Lyssa, really? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:19 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Mind it if I show the kids the full exchange?

Quote :
[13:55:35 02/12/14] phoneutria : I think you are upsetting lyssa with your outburst of emotion, dear

[13:55:56 02/12/14] @ Satyr : really?

[13:58:39 02/12/14] phoneutria : it is most uncalled fore

[13:58:41 02/12/14] phoneutria : for

[13:59:46 02/12/14] @ Satyr : It's all for your eyes, dear.

[14:03:16 02/12/14] Arditezza : Afternoon.

[14:03:28 02/12/14] phoneutria : a little comedy?

[14:03:47 02/12/14] @ Satyr : Is it funny?

[14:04:10 02/12/14] Arditezza : I am not sure that I find it funny.

[14:04:22 02/12/14] phoneutria : is it funny to you... is the question

[14:04:37 02/12/14] @ Satyr : You tell me

[14:04:57 02/12/14] phoneutria : it's histerical

[14:05:02 02/12/14] phoneutria : Wink

Does it sound like I am trying to correct someone, Lyssa, really? Wink

Quote :
Oh please, don't even warrant these puerile comments of mine with an answer. It is just for sport. Carry on as you are

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 pm

just poking...

*poke poke*

mmm wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:30 pm

Satyr wrote:
Once a male is raped, which would include being mentally fertilized, he wishes to reaffirm his masculinity with gestures of extreme violence towards the weakest of the weak.
It is a compensating gesture, meant to absolve him of his earlier weakness in being so penetrated.

He will return to the scene of his shame, to clean away the evidence....which he searches for with his black-light, amongst the sheets.

Wink

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:34 pm

How have you lived today, dear?
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:40 am

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:16 pm

!
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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:18 pm

Value is a process of juxtaposing phenomenon in relation to a goal, an idea(l), a motive guiding it towards a projected desirable outcome.
There is no value outside consciousness, and there is no consciousness outside a living organism, making value a relationship of organism to otherness, or organism to world, in reference to a goal that provides the standard of evaluation.

The offering of value as preceding judgment is a Judeo-Christian escape from its own bad consciousness that only serves to outline it more clearly.

The insinuation is that all that exists has the potential of being valuable, for some consciousness, for some, yet to be determined end.
It exists and so it has an innate potential just for existing.
Only for God is the world a thing, that is valuable in itself because it is the product of His will and His consciousness.
If there is no God then phenomena are not valuable in and of themselves.
Being a rock is not more valuable than being the wind.

To escape the necessity for a judgmental presence, this newest variant of Nihilism accepts the Judeo-Christian structures and then declares itself free from it to maintain its place within Modernity, or its current manifestation as secular humanism - to remain up-to-date while offering newer, progressive, packaging, for an old nihilistic product.

It accepts the cruelty of human judgment, which makes some more valuable than others, so as to maintain its illusion of being worldly and life-affirming, but then evades a judgment concerning particular traits, by declaring all that exists has value, or is valuable because it exists, which corresponds to the idea that all deserves because it exists.
The concept of "all" is itself a construct, and the hopeful message is based on a possibility, that has no reference to anything other than a projection of what might be, as chaos expands towards infinite possibilities.
The appeal to ignorance, and the seductive power of progressive Nihilism - nihilism with a smile.
As such the only things that lack value are those that never come to be, since the only things that have no possibility, are those that are not (inter)acting.

The juxtaposition here is between what exists and what does not - the one and the nil.

Value is "immanent" as a potential that will be realized for someone, at some place in space/time.
Value is a 'yet to be', or 'what might be' easily converted to 'what ought to be' in line with modernity's worshiping of future as the great emancipator from the determining 'what was', and the apparent 'what is'.

This takes judgment outside the space/time continuum, leaving behind a feeble, weak, judgment that has yet to discover value in all things, because it has yet to find a goal that would give all value.
A judgment afraid and ashamed of passing judgment, without the qualifiers "for me", or "in my opinion" reducing it to a perspective that is no more or less than any other.
For the Christians this goal, motivating their judgments, is God, that gives all value as that judgment outside space/time, for which the world is His idea(l), and the product of His consciousness, judgment, motive.
They simply repeat His word, reflecting upon His judgments.

It is not they who judge, but He - and they follow, and repeat.
So don't judge them.
They've escaped judgment inside reality by becoming mouthpieces for a judgment "outside" reality.

For such a Being all that exists has value indeed, in equal measure, whereas for the participating consciousness remains the unhappy, sinful, work of evaluating from the "inside", using cruelty and discrimination, which is also preserved as the unfortunate outcome of Godly Willfulness.
Human judgment but a feeble, sinful, weak judgment in comparison to the all-encompassing, supremely objective judgment of the Divine for whom the world is all-good.
Human judgment as being equally feeble, weak and ignorant, and so, human judgment as being equally valuable, and able to evaluate.

"It is good".

The necessity for a judgmental consciousness to bestow upon ALL existence value, is implied, and never stated - the result of resentiment that wishes to avoid the price of existing while preserving its benefits.

But that only a more clever Nihilistic tactic.
The most common, used by the most base and average minds is that of comparing unlike traits as if they were equally valuable. for example, for such despicable creatures a lion's strength is superior to a humans, making it superior to humans, and bacteria has a superior constitution and so it is superior to a human, and an ant can reproduce quicker than a human so it is superior.

Any trait it mustered up to escape what trait separates humans from all these creatures and make him superior.
Again, the goal is essential in evaluating what is above and what is below, what is desirable and what is undesirable...and if remaining a dumb animal is your goal then an ox is truly ideal, and superior to a human, and if being happy is the goal then remaining ignorant is superior to being aware, and if pleasure is the goal then being degenerate and base is superior to not being so.

It all depends on the motive, directed by a goal, guided by the projection of a desirable outcome.

Now I am not saying what one ought to value, but I am saying that what one does value determines how one behaves, how one (inter)acts; it determines destiny, and what we commonly refer to as fate.
Value does not precede the awareness and the projected idea(l), it follows from it.
At the root of value and why evaluating judging emerges as a tool for organic life, is need. In relation to this need, and the degree this need attains, as it ebbs and flows, determines the mind's evaluation of the perceived, and it then guides the projection of a desirable idea(l) goal, a state, a hoped for outcome, an imagined desirable 'yet to be'.
To place it before consciousness is to place a consciousness outside space-time, as I've described earlier, and elsewhere.

Judgment is warped, and along with it values, when this 'yet to be" has little to no connection with the past/nature, and no reference to an ongoing, falling away,immediate past, which we call present.
The notion of value before judgment or a life to judge, no matter how primitive this choice-making is, is so detached from past/nature and has nil reference to anything apparent as to make ti the product of a feeble mind desperate to escape.

It's no different than those feeble minds that place consciousnesses "outside" the brain, or that place life "outside" the organic body, calling it soul, or spirit.
They, too, imply, that consciousness precedes the emergence of a brain to be conscious, and life precedes an organism which lives.

This is not progress...but regress.
Like saying that the Creator is not in the transcending Beyond (outside) but in the immanently hidden (inside), both ludicrous nihilistic constructs implying a whole and a Being that only have meaning within an abstracting mind.

But what would one expect from minds who now dream of a coming European in-line, and surpassing, the ideal American type.
No hoards of Mexicans from the south, but Muslims, from Africa, transforming Europe into another multicultural wasteland where the word "culture" has lost all value, like every word that comes out of their, smiling, miserly mouths.




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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:28 pm

To make a value judgment one must compare A with B in relation to a standard.
The standard is based on a desirable outcome, an idea(l), a goal.

This goal is more or less realistic depending on how many references to the past/nature it has.

A value judgment, for instance, based on a projection which is fantastic, delusional, unrealistic is worthless, because it is nonsensical.
The standard is delusional and so all value judgments using it are delusional.

A mind that proposes such a standard exposes itself as delusional, and no judgment it makes should be taken seriously.
Here, past judgments are taken as a precedent to determine the quality of judgment of the mind in question.
A mind prone to bad choices, or to delusional standards for evaluating reality, are not to be taken seriously.

In the case of VO the writing is on the wall, and I've offered my judgment on what it insinuates and why.
Proposing a value before judgment as I said, implies a judgment outside time/space... this is indicated by the "before", that an effect with no cause, which is in this case value.
Others have sued love or consciousness, or Being, in exactly the same way.
It is a quintessential Judeo-Christian Nihilistic method.
It avoids the divine by placing a different word there, declaring ti the starting point of absolute reference.
So, there is no judging consciousness outside space/time, but to hide the Judeo-Christian bullshit, they begin with the outcome of such a presumed judging consciousness: the value.

For a God, indeed, all would be valuable, because all would be His Creation and so to His liking. Even here the problem of need, a value judgment depends upon turns this position ridiculous, if such A divine Being is then defined as omnipotent, loving, caring, and outside space/time.
All creativity is based on a need.
But that's another story.

The need in this project is to equalize all human judgments, turning them into lesser or greater instances of the original absolute value, which is proposed as self-evident.
Others claim consciousness is but a reflection, channeling a Divine, universal absolute mind.
Same motive, different traits being used - different words detaching from the world; noumenon with no reference to phenomena.

Another popular route this nihilistic degradation of human thinking can take, to preserve egalitarian uniformity, is to mix and compartmentalize.
For such retards a cheetah's defining traits - the traits that distinguish it from other species - are to be compared with traits that define another species, without judging which is superior.
They know what traits distinguishes a cheetah from another species but cannot then dare to say that this also determines which individual cheetah displays a superior degree of these defining traits....because they've been brainwashed to feel ashamed, and to avoid this so as to not expose how inferior they are in relation to human defining traits.

So, they will confuse the issue by insinuating that because a horse has a bigger penis than a cheetah, on average, that a horse's superiority in penis size makes the cheetah's superiority in speed, let's say, insignificant.
This tactic is used, of course, to deal with human issues, dealing with the traits that distinguish humans from other species and, as a result, one particular manifestation of the type homo sapient from another, as superior and/or inferior.
They are arguing in bad faith. Not to explore reality but to hide from it, disguising their insecurities as integrity.
For instance, that a rabbit is more prolific means that it is superior to a human, making of the traits that define a human no more than a comparable trait to be valued in relation to what idea(l)?
The idea(l) of uniformity and leveling.
The idea(l) that desperately wishes to hide its own inferiority behind an fake altruism and a pseudo-intellectual integrity.

For these last types, the need to preserve uniformity is really a desperate need to erase the determinism of inheritance - they want continuous second-chances and new-beginnings, where the individual is reborn, over and over again, at will, each time with a tabula rasa, even playing field of unrestricted possibilities.
In other words with none of those pesky probabilities, order imposes.

They shamelessly imply that a horse's larger penis makes of man's larger cerebral cortex no more than another trait, where all balances out in the end, and so no superior/inferior judgment can ever be made.
Therefore, if the defining traits that differentiate one species from another cannot be used to determine superiority, how can one dare to do so within the species which is supposed to inherit these traits in equal measure, as equally distributed potentials, according to Modern Liberal bullcrap?
Not only does it destroy the natural selection part of Evolution theory, it implies that although we can judge one individual dog with another dog to determine which one represents, to a higher degree, the particular traits that distinguishes dogness from catness, we cannot do so with humans, and we can never dare to use human standards to determine which one is superior as a species.

We must agree to disagree, preserving the idea(l) that nobody can judge, except, perhaps God Himself.
What's remarkable about this duplicity, is that its very position implies a superior morality, which uses a standard based no an absolute God or some idealized sanctified version of man that has never been born and so remains another nonsensical projection, turning all value judgments derived from it into nonsensical ones.


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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:51 pm

Conclusion:

1- All value judgments, including those that pretend, to themselves, to do away with judging, are juxtapositions of A-B in relation to a projected idea(l): a goal, an object/objective.
This represents the motive.  
The motive exposes the need, and so exposes the essence of the one projection or the one adopting an other's projection as his own.  


2- All projected idea(l)s are not created equal, as each holds in higher regard particular traits, which shape the projected goal.
The goal is often a purification and highest imagined degree of these defining traits.
So, the higher appreciation of stupidity rather than intelligence, will shape the projected idea(l)s desirable object/objective and, as a consequence, will characterize the individual that aspires to attain it.
A higher appreciation of beauty will make a peacock, or many tropical birds, superior to any human.
A higher appreciation of escape will make numbness, and all numbing agents, and the minds numbed out of existence, superior to awareness.
The need is exposed in the expression of appreciation.    


3- Projections of idea(l)s, of object/objectives, are not equally realistic.
The degree to which an idea(l) refers to past/nature (with immediate past being what we call the present), determines the degree to which it is realistic; the degree to which it makes sense, is sensible, and attainable, and rational.
Projections detached from reality to the degree VO is, and Christianity is, are called delusions.
With Christianity the motive is to preserve the mind in a constant state of shame, by offering an unattainable unrealistic idea(l) to aspire towards,so as to make it malleable to any corrective suggestions.
With VO the motive is much simpler. It's motive is self-congratulatory, playing with human vanity.
It only wants to eradicate the shame aspect of the previous ethical standards it is birthed from (Nihilistic standards) and remains in alignment with.
It's another repackaging of the usual modernistic bullshit being used to comfort the masses into a state of arrogant "altruism", with an inflating sense of entitled juvenile impressionability.
It eliminates shame by taking it for granted that what is aspired towards is already self-evident, across the board. Therefore, all should be loved, respected, have a right to live, should be appreciated and so on.
It makes a mockery of consciousness and of discrimination (judgment) so as to find peace in never being judged, and never having to adhere to any judgment other than one's own. It's an infantile self-referential looping, with a parental figure sheltering it from the severity of its desired detachment.  
It holds itself accountable to nobody, except self, and so eradicates hierarchies and idea(l)s external to its noetic universe; it is its own ideal.
Culture of me (solipsism) - the privilege of being sheltered, and of having detached self from past/nature.  


4- Each species, type, is characterized by particular traits, that represents its past/nature, in relation to the path it has taken to increase its survivabiltiy.
Each trait must be judged temporally, as in how resistant to Flux, to (inter)activity it is, and how much of the space/time continuum it can endure.
In the case of stupidity, being ignorant makes one immune to space/time probabilities, and is often confused for strength, and is sometimes called a different kind of wisdom.
Just like ignorance is often confused for courage.
A retard, has no existential anxieties to cope with.
He is troubled with no probability beyond his short-sighted world-view - encompassed by his shallow perceptual-event-horizon.
Indifference is not always confidence, and it can only preserve the organism in a state of bliss for so long - relying on chance rather than insight and personal effort.

In the case of the human species there are a specific number of traits, working in conjunction that distinguish this species from others, in degree, but that also distinguishes one member of the species from the other, again, in degree.
These traits are inherited and only expanded through stress...stress being an exposure to reality, not a hiding from it, or a redefining of it, or making one's self numb to it.
If a chimp has larger testicles, is inconsequential when the standard of evaluating its value is intelligence, creativity, imagination, wisdom, pattern recognition etc.
If some humans choose to use that trait as the standard to evaluate, and to value, self, then this only exposes them as what they truly are, and wish to be judged as, because they feel inadequate in relation to the human traits.  


5- Not all judgments are equal.
A pattern of behavior, establishing a precedent of effects, determines the quality of the judgment.
as such, man takes into account the judgments of another, as he would his past behavior, to evaluate the value of his judgment, or the quality of it, as he would use his past choices to evaluate the reliability of said individual.
A pattern, once establishes, is requires a force equal to the aggregate energies that brought it about and that sustain it within the *(inter)activity of existence.
Therefore, for an individual, or any pattern, to break from its predictable behavioral patterns, a severe stressor must produce a break in it.
The break might shatter ti completely, into randomness, chaos, or it may reduce it to a lower pattern, a reduction in value, or it may solidify it, strengthen it without losing its continuance - its connection to past/nature which would mean a shattering, and without making compromises that contradict its core traits, which would mean a reduction.
Without such a stressor, only a sever willful intervention might produce the same effect, but such a will would have to be an other-than, because the will is always in control over a fraction of the organism's aggregate energies (interacting processes).  


6- Easiest way to control a judgment is to inculcate it early on, with a standard of evaluating and judging...which would include the judging without judgment; the deferment of judgment to another, to text, to an external consciousness, will, which will direct judgments and so determine behavior.
If such an imposition does not occur early enough, before the brain matures, then a severe stressor may be applied to break the mind, so as to then reorganize it in accordance with the standards needed.
Because some standards are based on an idea(l) that is unreal, fantastic, supernatural, the standard fails to overcome the established evaluating standards inherited genetically, unless sever self-repression and neurosis, is not forced upon the individual.
The easiest way to manipulate judgment is to go along with the individual's inherited pattern go behavior, manipulating it with slight modifications, but never openly contradicting its established pattern.
As such, VO appeals to those who are already guided by a deep need to escape reality, and to be judged in accordance with its unforgiving indifference, in the same way Judeo-Christianity and its brain-child, Marxism and secular humanism, seduces minds who already find existence deplorable and are desperate for a way out of its premises.

In Judeo-Christianity the standard is God's word, which reduces all to the status of sinners - equality in negation of self, and the unattainable idea(l) of self, which is God.
In Marxism and secular humanism, race, sex, are erased, to be replaced with the standard of productivity, and the idea(l) of humanity.
Past/Nature is erased to make this happen.
A comforting idea to those that desperately want o escape themselves, or the sum of their (inter)actions.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:37 am

Having established that value is a judgment based on the juxtaposition of phenomena, in relation to a goal, and so a product of a living organism whose primary goal (a goal that need not be conceptualized) is self-preservation we can now proceed to the understanding of what we mean by more/less valuable, or superior/inferior.

We must connect these words with time and space.

Space = the possible, within which a consciousness perceives patterns it interprets as different kinds of matter/energy.
Time = the measure of change, or of the Flux, this juxtaposition exposes the conscious mind to.

As such, value is now connected to the essence of existence, which is (inter)activity, and which is experienced by a living organism as Flux - space/time being the more sophisticated experience of this Flux.
Need being the sensation of Flux, and space, in the primitive experience, an evaluation of effort required to satisfy this need.
We've already noted that time is the experience of change (Flux), dependent no the particular organism's metabolic rates - systolic/diastolic cellular rhythms.
But for a basic organism the conception of time is not necessary. It only acts on need, dealing with space as the attaining of satisfaction for this motivating need.

Our conception of what is superior, in value, must take this into account.
Therefore, for a living organism the value of a phenomenon begins with the evaluation of its utility in relation to its primary need, which is self-maintenance (survival).
The phenomenon's value is based on this evaluation (judgment) of how much it potentially satisfies the organism's primary need.  

Value is equal to the amount of temporal attrition it corrects, and the amount of energies to be expended in collecting and processing it - its potential net-gain in energies.
From there the secondary consideration that may multiply value is in evaluating how much potential, spatial effect, a phenomenon promises.
How much expansion in space it produces, once the primary need is satisfied.
This judgment is only possible for more sophisticated organisms, where "sophisticated" already implies superiority, in that it incorporates more possibilities (spatial factors; possibilities) into its judgments.
Ergo, by successfully evaluating possibilities, the organism exposes its superiority, and this superiority manifests in a broader spatial effect.
This will also increase its temporality, its longevity, because evaluation of possibilities means a preparation in relation to possible change.
To be spatially aware is to be aware of more possibilities, evaluated in degree as probability, which can then provide the organism with the potential to prepare and to focus energies to endure.

If we compare a human with an ant, we must give the human the advantage, the superior value, because although less prolific and durable, he more than makes up for his temporal weakness with his spatial effect.
Quantity vs Quality
An ant exists within a shallow perceptual-event-horizon, when compared to that of a human's.
Therefore, although there are organism's which are bigger, stronger, more durable to a human the fact that a human exists in a world where spatial possibilities are vastly more expansive than those of other creatures gives him the advantage.
It is why despite his feeble frame and lack of speed and strength in relation to other creatures humans dominate, and can only be called superior to all other creatures.
This is the profound effect intelligence has, and why a human defines himself as the creature that out-thinks all other creatures - the human mind being its defining trait.  

We can now give the word "value" a reference point, rather than continue using it, as cowards and imbeciles do, as an ambiguity that can mean anything for any one, at any time.
Superior/Inferior are variations of this value based on time/space effects.  


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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:13 am

When we speak of human we speak of his defining characteristic which is not speed, nor size, nor constitution, but mind - intelligence being a word that incorporates the different processes and traits involved and which I've described elsewhere.

We can now speak of superior human, in the same way we can speak of a superior dog breed by evaluating the particular traits defining this species, outside the human intervention of dog breeding, but in relation to the species before man domesticated it, and its survival methods.
In dog shows an individual dog is evaluated on how well it represents the breed's idea(l), by judging the particular traits which define the particular breed. In this case in relation to the breeder's intent.
In nature there is no "intent" as in the example of the dog breeds, and so we must use survival as the motive that makes all other intentions possible.
It is implied in the dog breeder's intent when he intentionally breeds particular traits into a dog breed to enhance his own well-being.

In nature the primary intent, that makes all intentions possible, is self-maintenance.
It is these survival methods that evolved particular traits, to facilitate the particular niche and survival strategies of this type of organism.



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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:31 pm

My best friend says that the concept where value precedes judgment should be reworked.

Self-valuing should really be value-selfing.

And so VALUE manifests as self, and the ONE expresses itself in multiplicity.
This would include inanimate matter, such as stones and clouds. They exist because they value self...or they self because they value.
This kind of comedy you can't just make-up, it is based on reality; the reality of the desperate human mind.  

As part of a long tradition of bullishit word applications, the change in terms is very important here.

If Will precedes consciousness, and Being precedes existence, and Love precedes living, and Consciousness precedes an organic life, then why not make value preceded judgment....and then, perhaps we can repackage the same crap and say that light precedes energy, digestion precedes stomach, and farting precedes consuming food.

How desperate to save God by cherry-picking the parts we athropomorphosized when we were still Judeo-Christians, detaching those particular expressions of being alive from the infantile concept of a Being outside space/time, and then inverting their application to pretend we've done something amazing.

Have you seen the blank stares of the believers?
The more you confront them with their own bullshit the more certain they are, the more happy they are, the more vindicated they feel.
Have you listened to their drone?
Their humility is a cover for the deepest compensating, undeserved, arrogance man can imagine.
They humbly admit that they deserve eternal life.
They skeptically present the solution to the biggest problems plaguing mankind.
With a soft, loving, smile, sell you death, and call it life eternal, or sell you stupidity and call it genius beyond comprehension - then they refer and defer interpreting each quote as if it were supporting their delusions.
Will they not look you in the eyes and tell you, without a hint of doubt, that they can heal cancer, or that they've come across the most profound knowledge?

But such is the ways of man, and when decline begins, and the coming Dark Age is inevitable, such dis-eases are to be expected.

The patterns continue.
Not only from the same groups, but from the same types of psychologies, do we expect such convictions.            


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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:35 am

Value-Selfing = Spinoza

The Semite regurgitates what has been already consumed, and taken over by vanity and his clan's self-aggrandizing identification with the victim he offers a soothing broth for all to find comfort in, and he calls it his own recipe.  

Christians turned self-loving to love-selfing, hiding the arrogance and narcissism in the reversal, and claiming selfless humility.

Of course I call it self-ordering, incorporating the random, the chaos, into the process of Becoming.
No absolute order....
No absolute self...
All is towards...
Life is not existence.
Life is a part of existence.

When talking about philosophy it is best you start with existence before you explore what life is within existence, otherwise you are indulging in politics, psychology, sociology, and feeding a hungry soul with easy words, confusing humanity for reality.
If the interest is being popular, liked, finding validation in others, then stay on course and confuse Being with Existing.
Words must be used to distinguish, to differentiate, not to conflate.

A rock exists, but it is no being.

Life is Becoming....as it strives to Be...and this to be is diverse because it is a projection of an object/objective the Mind constructs from experience and so is a product of simplification/generalization, and so forever ambiguous.
The object/objective, in its basic, primal, form is no more than an orientation tool to focus the organism's aggregate energies, its Will.

A rock strives not, it exists as a congruence of energies, sometimes of multiple patterns, with no goal, no motive, no value, no destination.
A rock is not a unity.
The observes turns it into a unity, by simplifying/generalizing it in relation to the background, in relation to a pile of rocks, or a mountain.
The rock is not holding itself together, in a loving embrace of value-selfing.....of love-selfing.....it is simply a congruence of flows that are (inter)acting, pushing and pulling - patterns each with its own rate of fluidity, and with the (inter)action friction.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixed and Value Ontology Today at 10:04 pm

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