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PostSubject: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Feel free to add relevant, edifying information.


The Joker Archetype





"A jester was a historical entertainer either employed to entertain a ruler or other nobility in medieval or Tudor times or was an itinerant performer who entertained common folk at fairs and markets. With the resurgent interest in historical re-enactment and living history jesters have now become a common sight at modern medieval themed events. Jesters in medieval times are often thought to have worn brightly coloured clothes and eccentric hats in a motley pattern and their modern counterparts usually mimic this costume. In medieval times jesters entertained with a wide variety of skills which could include songs, music, storytelling, acrobatics, juggling, and magic. Much of the entertainment was performed in a comic style and many jesters made contemporary jokes in word or song about people or events well known to their audiences." - Wiki

The joker archetype seems to be unique to primates. Monkeys are well known for their joker like antics:


The joker is symbolic of the one who realizes the divine comedy of existence, the cosmic joke. Many upon realizing the meaningless of existence, fall into a state of horror. But the joker is not afraid hence the laughter ( a response sometimes to feeling secure within the context of a potentially terrifying or dangerous situation ). It's said that some Buddist monks, upon achieving enlightenment, would burst out into uncontrollable laughter; an indication of realizing the absurdity of existence, yet not being afraid of it.

In the movie The Dark Knight, the Joker is a sort of satyr, a mysterious figure that comes out of nowhere to poke holes in common societal beliefs and morals, an iconoclast. But this joker is more malevolent, more sadistic. The Joker in The Dark Knight wants the entire world to burn; he is a misanthrope. He laughs at morality, society, rules, laws, existence itself.


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:02 pm

A fine thread you've created there Erik.  clown What a Face 

I was going to create one sooner or later as it was on my to do list but you beat me to the punch.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:06 pm




god bless dick cheney.

god bless america.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:12 pm

There Will Be Blood wrote:



god bless dick cheney.

god bless america.


Fuck those neo conservative assholes.

I'd like to see them strung up hanging on a lamp post.   clown


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:19 pm

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

With myself being somewhat of a comic book nerd in my youth I've read the novel The Killing Joke.

In it we find that the Joker use to be a fairly average man of humble origins before he was pushed over the edge in becoming the sociopathic killer that everybody knows of him as now.

That's why I like the archetype of the Joker because he's an allegory of how any average man pushed over the edge can end up becoming.  That's also why he's the most scariest.

He has no superpowers or super-strength.  He's completely mortal and yet in terms of mental genius he's quite formidable to those who have both.













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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:49 pm

Yes, he is not very physically strong, but he compensates for this through his mental strength, his cunning. He is like Loki in this sense. Thor possesses physical might - Loki posses mental might, trickery.

I used to be very afraid of clowns when I was a boy. watching the movie IT doesn't help either. Maybe this ties into why I find the Joker so fascinating. We are simultaneously repelled and attracted to him. He keeps us on edge because he is unpredictable.

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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:59 pm

Erik wrote:
Yes, he is not very physically strong, but he compensates for this through his mental strength, his cunning. He is like Loki in this sense. Thor possesses physical might - Loki posses mental might, trickery.

I used to be very afraid of clowns when I was a boy. watching the movie IT doesn't help either. Maybe this ties into why I find the Joker so fascinating. We are simultaneously repelled and attracted to him. He keeps us on edge because he is unpredictable.

Yes, Loki is a good example along with the Native American Coyote.

The trickster archetype is universal in world mythology.  clown 

Even Satan, Lucifer, or Enki fits with all of that.

Unpredictability is the nature of the great trickster.


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:00 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:07 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:18 am

I can't read that small font in those pics
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:14 am

Æon wrote:
I can't read that small font in those pics

That's the best resolution I could get it in.

There are magnify programs out there if you can find them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:17 am

I see the Joker as a shrewd manipulator, he has a good knowledge or understanding of human nature and its faults, yet I would hesitate to describe him as "high in intelligence", I would rather err on the side of cunning, as he portrays an image of the human condition, in all its explosive mixtures of tragic and comic. Radin describes it perfectly, "The Trickster is symbolic of what happens when man's instinctual side is given free reign".
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:50 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:
I see the Joker as a shrewd manipulator, he has a good knowledge or understanding of human nature and its faults, yet I would hesitate to describe him as "high in intelligence", I would rather err on the side of cunning, as he portrays an image of the human condition, in all its explosive mixtures of tragic and comic.  Radin describes it perfectly,  "The Trickster is symbolic of what happens when man's instinctual side is given free reign".

I think he is an intelligent character; his creativity is great. The complex schemes that he conjures up are genius.



It's ironic because the Joker himself claims that he is not a guy with a plan, just a dog chasing cars. But, of course, he is a joker after all - can't trust him.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:28 pm

The Philosopher is the progress of the priest who is the progression of the poet.

The Clown or the Jester is the progress of the Philosopher rendering things that cannot be said in crooked and witful form.

Hence the Clown takes on the feature of absurdity, as truth that is hard to swallow is delivered by the clown in witful regulation.

The Jester in the hall of the King,

Socrates in the hall of the Thrasymachus,


"All truth is crooked. Time itself is a circle." [N., TSZ]

The Joker as the agent of time/chaos can only show truth in the absurdity, in the crookedness of his speech, of his acts, of his gesture.

The riddle is a kind of play too; the riddler a type of the joker...



Associating the Trickster figure with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]:

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Liminality and the Trickster.


The Initiators.

"Initiators" play an important role in the transitional state of liminality; in the present case, not the elders and medicine men of tribal society that Turner describes, but those bearing no less power (magical and non-magical) in the European Commission in Brussels, the IMF, the World Bank, Wall Street, and a few other such institutions. They do, indeed, behave like the initiators of old: they are strict, at times ruthless, secretive, they chant eternal verities, will not be gainsaid, will put one to shame or threaten castration when necessary, they bind one hand and foot – all this in the firm belief, or on the excuse, that this is all in one's best interest: when the initiation rite is finished one will be able to step as an adult into the world of grown-ups. The process may be successful in the majority of cases, though the official initiators at many points around the globe have already ruined and permanently crippled a good many countries, societies and groups of people. Hungary, though, might come off better than that.

Shamans and prophets.

It is common in transitional, liminal periods for irrational propensities to gain strength in society, for rational analytical and critical faculties to weaken. In such an atmosphere it is not uncommon to see the appearance of shamans, who cast a spell on their flock, or prophets, who preach about apocalypse and a new Jerusalem to come. In Hungary, Viktor Orbán and Ferenc Gyurcsány possess such gifts, though from time to time they seem rather to cut the figure of a sorcerer's apprentice, and one can only hope that the magic word which will stop the floodwaters will spring to their mind in time.

Tricksters.

The confusion of the transitional period also tends to favour the appearance of "tricksters", those clever and cunning hobgoblins who played, and still play, an important role in the mythologies of innumerable civilisations, destroying and creating, playing the innocent and resorting to trickery, cheating or assisting, turning the world upside down and putting it to rights again; there is no way of knowing whether they are for us or against us, they can drive us to distraction or dazzle us with their tricks, make us miserable or happy. Even such an outstanding politician as Tony Blair has something of the air of a trickster about him: a charming, smiling trickster. On the far side of the ocean is Arnold Schwarzenegger as the giant trickster in the seven-league boots. In Europe Milosevic, Meciar, the Kaczynski brothers, Berlusconi and Putin would also stand good chances of bidding for that label, while in Hungary, too, several specimens of the type have cropped up. "
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"Mimesis, or the imitative aspect of human behavior, is an important aspect of liminality[61]. Individuals that are trapped in a liminal situation are not able to act rationally for two reasons: “first, because the structure on which ‘objective’ rationality was based has disappeared; and second, because the stressful, emotive character of a liminal crisis prevents clear thinking”[62]. This can lead to “mimetic” behavior on the part of the trapped individuals: “a central characteristic of liminal situations is that, by eliminating the stable boundary lines, they contribute to the proliferation of imitative processes and thus to the continuous reproduction of dominant messages about what to copy”[63]. Without stable institutions (which are effectively broken down in a liminal period), “people will look at concrete individuals for guidance”[64].

This notion of imitation is closely tied to that of the trickster figure. The trickster is a universal figure that can be found in folktales and myths of nearly all cultures. These tricksters can be characterized as follows:

[they] are always marginal characters: outsiders, as they cannot trust or be trusted, cannot give or share, they are incapable of living in a community; they are repulsive, as – being insatiable – they are characterized by excessive eating, drinking, and sexual behavior, having no sense of shame; they are not taken seriously, given their affinity with jokes, storytelling, and fantasizing[65].

In the context of liminality, the trickster is a very dangerous figure: “in a liminal situation where certainties are lost, imitative behavior escalates, and tricksters can be mistaken for charismatic leaders”[66].

This means that in their search for guidance, the individuals caught in the liminal situation might choose to follow a trickster, whom they confuse with a charismatic leader capable of “saving” them. Liminal periods that affect entire societies are characterized by the absence of a “master of ceremonies” (the leadership figures that are supposed to lead the initiands out of the liminal phase), which can in turn lead to the rise of tricksters into positions of power. When a trickster enters into a position of leadership, “liminality will not be restricted to a temporary crisis, followed by a return to normality, but can be perpetuated endlessly”[67].

This can be explained by three important characteristics of the trickster: his lack of a home (the trickster is, by definition, homeless and an outsider), lack of deeply felt human relations, and lack of existential commitments[68]. These traits cause the trickster to have no interest in solving the liminal crisis; “on the contrary, being really at home in liminality, or in homelessness, his real interest lies in its opposite, in perpetuating such conditions of confusion”[69].
On the other hand, the trickster is also a mime. “Imitation, whether in learning or in social activity, is only possible in so far as we are not aware that we are actually imitating…because as soon as we do so, imitation becomes a mere miming and would produce no effect in learning or no pleasure in involvement”[70]. Seeing as the trickster is incapable of “experiencing learning or the pleasure of sociability” as others do, he can be considered a mime rather than an imitator[71]. He thus appears to act just as everyone else does. With this in mind, there are “two characteristics [of the trickster] that under certain conditions could turn to be profitable, even [leading him to gain] unlimited and total power”: “his permanent state of exteriority helps him to think rationally and makes him a good mime: he cannot learn by genuine imitation but learns how to mime others and this produces laughter; thus he receives appreciation that otherwise he would never obtain”[72].

The term schismogenesis, developed by British anthropologist Gregory Bateson, can be used to describe situations of permanent liminality. Through this concept, Bateson suggested “that societies can be stuck for a long time in a state where the previous unity was broken, and yet the schismatic components are forced to stay together, producing an unpleasant, violent, harrowing, truly miserable existence”[73]. Bateson further suggested that “entire cultures might systematically produce schizoid personalities” and, by combining such an idea with the work of Turner and anthropologist René Girard, one could say that the trickster is capable of founding such a culture. Girard’s concept of mimetic desire (and, more importantly, the phenomenon he called the “mimetic crisis”) can be linked to the trickster and to absence of masters of ceremonies in large-scale instances of liminality:

When a mimetic crisis is artificially staged in the ritual process, it always happens in the presence of a “master of ceremonies” who maintains order once the stabilities of everyday life are dissolved in the rites of separation. When the schism takes place in real life, however, it is not certain that charismatic heroes emerge that are up to solving the situation through eidetic perception, in the Platonic sense[74].

In any normal situation, the trickster would not be able to gain any appreciation from others, but in a crisis situation (which, as an outsider, the trickster has no emotional connections to), “might come up with a rational way of ‘solving’ the crisis by turning things into his own image”[75]. It is precisely in these situations that “schismatic doubling and copying are escalated, and the erratic, even repulsive, becomes normal” Once others become aware of the true nature of the trickster’s behavior, it “becomes a genuine problem as a trickster character cannot be altered, so there is genuinely no solution”[77]. It is also not possible for the trickster figure to be punished, as “punishment is only meaningful if there is a chance of correction and improvement, which is hopeless in the case of a trickster character”[78].

When trickster figures are mistaken for saviors, then emotions will be continually and repeatedly incited, until the community is reduced to a schismatic state. Societies can maintain themselves in such situations of oppression and violence for a long time, without returning to normal order, if stable external referent points are absent. This is why schismogenic societies need to maintain themselves in a perpetual state of war; presumably surrounded by enemies who try to conquer and destroy them[80].

Thus the culture that is established by such tricksters following their rise to power “can have its structure and persistence, as the negative sentiments of hatred, hostility, fear and envy, based on vital instincts of self-preservation, can indeed maintain in the long term a social order in a relative state of stability”[81]. But in addition, this same society would “preserve, forever, its broken, fragmented, schismatic character”[82].

In Reflexive Historical Sociology, Szakolczai elaborates on the classification of “Soviet-type Bolshevism” as an example of the third kind of permanent liminality:

The communist regimes in Europe and Asia were all established under one very special kind of condition: the end of a world war. If all wars are liminal situations in which the cycle of mimetic violence escalates beyond measure, then the closing stages of a world war, and especially the process of reconstruction that starts after such massive warfare, can be conceived of as a rite of reaggregation. The singular specificity of communist regimes, however, was to play continuously on the sentiments of suffering, revenge and hatred, prevent the settling down of the negative emotions, stir up the worst in human feelings by submitting a population…first to an endless civil war and then to a period of forced and unintelligible terror. Communism was a regime in which the Second World War never ended.[83]
The trickster used the technique of “flirting” to achieve this, meaning the “systematic teasing of the population with an imminent state of bliss”."

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

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*Become clean, my friends.*


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:03 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:
I see the Joker as a shrewd manipulator, he has a good knowledge or understanding of human nature and its faults, yet I would hesitate to describe him as "high in intelligence", I would rather err on the side of cunning, as he portrays an image of the human condition, in all its explosive mixtures of tragic and comic.  Radin describes it perfectly,  "The Trickster is symbolic of what happens when man's instinctual side is given free reign".

Man's instinctual side should be given free reign.  clown 
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:49 pm

The Philosophy of The Joker in The Dark Knight




The Joker in the The Dark Knight represents chaos, entropy, anarchy, the feminine, amorality.
He is the antithesis par excellence of Batman. Batman represents order, civility, the masculine, morality, justice, and so on. Batman is the Yang of Joker's Yin.

When Batman interrogates the Joker, the underlying philosophical elements of the film, really, become manifest. The Joker tries to shatter Batman's worldview, insinuating that his whole mission is a joke, that the people he defends are, deep down, cruel and barbaric just like the criminals he helps to incarcerate. The Joker is aware of the nihilism of existence, that morality is just a human contrivance, and that human beings are just as brutal as the other carnal beasts of prey. He lives in accordance with the chaos and amorality of existence. Batman is aware of human nature, too; he witnessed how savage people can be as both of his parents were murdered before him. But Batman chooses to see the ' good ' in people, and to live according to morals.



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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:55 pm

The reality is that there are no heroes in this world.

There are only villains.

Something I'm sure the fictional character would even agree on.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:58 pm

LaughingMan wrote:
The reality is that there are no heroes in this world.

There are only villains.

Something I'm sure the fictional character would even agree on.

I, respectfully, beg to differ.

There are heroes, too. The concept of villainy would be nonsensical without the contrasting heroism.

There are, probably, more villains than heroes especially in this day and age.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:52 pm

Joker + Batman = exceptional Human beings....superior ones.

The X-Men Scenario

One (Joker) chooses to use his advantage to spread chaos amongst the mediocre, who fake civility - He wants to take take advantage of their hypocrisies and have his revenge.
The reason is not clear.
Perhaps an existential resentiment.

The other (Batman) wants to protect the herd.
He wants to protect the common from themselves, believing they can rise to his level.

Both are outside....not a minor difference but one is poor, uninterested in money, the other rich, uninterested in enjoying his inherited money.


Contrast:
Hannibal Lecter = the exceptional human being....the superior one.
He wants to feed on them, manipulate, them study them (he is a psychologist and surgeon).
He culls the herd, and seeks his own amongst them.

The herd is part of the urban jungle, all three are made possible in - urbanization, outside natural environment.


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:52 pm

The motivations of the Joker i think i could contrast with Shakespeare's Iago in Othello. Those who have read it, one of my favorite Shakespearean plays.

Iago’s motivation to corrupt Othello is driven not by revenge, but by simple inherent callousness. Shakespeare intended to portray Man through Iago, as an animal of cruelty without mercy, and without reason. It is the stark representation of what lies in the heart of man even against his own understanding of it, and we can see even Iago has no veritable grasp of his own wickedness.

Iago: “I hate the Moor; and it is thought abroad that ‘twixt my sheets, ‘has done my office. I know not if’t be true; Yet I , for mere suspicion in that kind, Will do as if for surety.

He explains here, that even if a clear reason for this hate is lacking, he will hate for the sake of hating, in that regard of being what he is: a man of basic resentment. Iago is the representation of nature as force, without morality, without reservation. The Joker embraces himself, and who he is without qualms or scruples. This emanates a kind of seductive artistry.

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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:14 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:
Quote :


"The Trickster is symbolic of what happens when man's instinctual side is given free reign".

LaughingMan wrote:

Quote :
Man's instinctual side should be given free reign. clown 

I consider The Joker to be a primordial, cosmic being, not human per se, yet having greater powers than man, making him superior to him, but on the other hand, inferior because of his irrationality or madness and in many aspects he is below animal, as he is without their instincts.  He is also deserted by his human associates, which seems to suggest that he falls short of their level of consciousness.  He is not anti/heroic as some would want to believe.

Freedom to do as one pleases is free "rein", not free "reign", which means for example "the exercise of sovereign power", as the Joker believes
himself to have.




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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:53 pm

Erik wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:
The reality is that there are no heroes in this world.

There are only villains.

Something I'm sure the fictional character would even agree on.

I, respectfully, beg to differ.

There are heroes, too. The concept of villainy would be nonsensical without the contrasting heroism.

There are, probably, more villains than heroes especially in this day and age.

Once you see the various powers, authorities, or organizations these so called 'heroes' serve you will better understand my comment.

What is a villain other than that of a person who pursues their own self interests at all costs? That's what everybody else does. No denying that.

I guess that's why I am attracted to villains.  They're more honest compared to the heroes that pretend to be going around doing God's work.....
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:08 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:
Quote :


"The Trickster is symbolic of what happens when man's instinctual side is given free reign".

LaughingMan wrote:

Quote :
Man's instinctual side should be given free reign. clown 

I consider The Joker to be a primordial, cosmic being, not human per se, yet having greater powers than man, making him superior to him, but on the other hand, inferior because of his irrationality or madness and in many aspects he is below animal, as he is without their instincts.  He is also deserted by his human associates, which seems to suggest that he falls short of their level of consciousness.  He is not anti/heroic as some would want to believe.

Freedom to do as one pleases is free "rein", not free "reign", which means for example "the exercise of sovereign power", as the Joker believes
himself to have.





Quote :
Freedom to do as one pleases is free "rein", not free "reign", which means for example "the exercise of sovereign power", as the Joker believes
himself to have.

Potato, Potahto.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:20 am

Satyr wrote:
Joker + Batman = exceptional Human beings....superior ones.

The X-Men Scenario

One (Joker) chooses to use his advantage to spread chaos amongst the mediocre, who fake civility - He wants to take take advantage of their hypocrisies and have his revenge.
The reason is not clear.
Perhaps an existential resentiment.

The other (Batman) wants to protect the herd.
He wants to protect the common from themselves, believing they can rise to his level.

Both are outside....not a minor difference but one is poor, uninterested in money, the other rich, uninterested in enjoying his inherited money.


Contrast:
Hannibal Lecter = the exceptional human being....the superior one.
He wants to feed on them, manipulate, them study them (he is a psychologist and surgeon).
He culls the herd, and seeks his own amongst them.

The herd is part of the urban jungle, all three are made possible in - urbanization, outside natural environment.  


Let's review this, shall we?




Hannibal Lecter: Serial killer, psychologist, surgeon, and studier of people in general.

The Joker:  Serial killer, professional killer, guerrilla terrorist, professional criminal, assassin,  hired mercenary, and overall instigator of chaotic mayhem.

Concerning skill sets I believe the Joker would win against Hannibal hands down.





I have nothing against Hannibal.  He's a good fictional character for sure as archetypes are concerned it's just that I don't think he's much of a match for the Joker.

The only person that might even come close to being a match against the Joker would be Lex Luther.  Have to save that subject for another thread altogether.

In several series Lex Luther has a severe hatred of the Joker where they have encountered and sometimes worked with each other on numerous occasions.

Oops.....letting my nerd side show.  Gotta run!








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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:50 am

Slow down, take a breath, breeeath.......inhaaaaaaale, breath ouuuuuut, breath in...........breath out.
You are stressing me out.
You are like a freight train whizzing past.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:59 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
Slow down, take a breath, breeeath.......inhaaaaaaale, breath ouuuuuut, breath in...........breath out.
You are stressing me out.
You are like a freight train whizzing past.

You know, I have that sort of effect on women.  *Winks*

Want to talk about this privately?  Twisted Evil clown *Grins*
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:15 am

I like a man with a slow hand.

Guess that dismisses you. sigh
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:16 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
I like a man with a slow hand.  

Guess that dismisses you.   sigh

Slow hand? I'll show you my clown patch doll.  Twisted Evil 

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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:37 am

I forgot how beautiful it is around here.  study Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:40 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
I forgot how beautiful it is around here.  study Very Happy 

I do have your intention then. Splendid.  Smile 

Don't bother. I'm going to private message you.  clown 
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:47 am

Ha!

Wrong intention.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:53 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
Ha!

Wrong intention.

Playing hard to get?  Razz 
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:11 am

LaughingMan wrote:
Erik wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:
The reality is that there are no heroes in this world.

There are only villains.

Something I'm sure the fictional character would even agree on.

I, respectfully, beg to differ.

There are heroes, too. The concept of villainy would be nonsensical without the contrasting heroism.

There are, probably, more villains than heroes especially in this day and age.

Once you see the various powers, authorities, or organizations these so called 'heroes' serve you will better understand my comment.

What is a villain other than that of a person who pursues their own self interests at all costs? That's what everybody else does. No denying that.

I guess that's why I am attracted to villains.  They're more honest compared to the heroes that pretend to be going around doing God's work.....

I see what you are getting at, and I agree to a degree; governments are supposed to be heroic/guardian like, yet look how corrupt they are. But you gotta look at another framework. There are still, true, heroes. For example: a soldier that jumps on a grenade to save his platoon, a firefighter that puts his life on the line to save a child from a burning house, someone who saves a baby from drowning, and so on. Don't let a few bad apples ruin the whole batch for you.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:54 am

Loki as Joker Archetype





"In Norse mythology, Loki, Loptr, or Hveðrungr is a god or jötunn (or both). Loki is the son of Fárbauti and Laufey, and the brother of Helblindi and Býleistr. By the jötunn Angrboða, Loki is the father of Hel, the wolf Fenrir, and the world serpent Jörmungandr. By his wife Sigyn, Loki is the father of Narfi and/or Nari. By the stallion Svaðilfari, Loki is the mother—giving birth in the form of a mare—to the eight-legged horse Sleipnir. In addition, Loki is referred to as the father of Váli in the Prose Edda.' - Wiki

In the movie Thor, Loki is an orphaned demigod who was adopted by the god Odin: The father of Thor. In the film, Loki initially appears as a benevolent being of sound judgment, but later on, his true colors become manifest. Loki envies his brother Thor, envies that fact that he possess more physical power than he does, and that he is favored to inherit the thrown. Loki grows an inferiority complex, becomes aware of his lack of power juxtaposed with his brother Thor, thus he becomes obsessed with obtaining power, power hungry. Loki, as prior mentioned, does not posses much physical might, but he compensates for this through more feminine avenues, e.g., trickery, cunning, deceptiveness, and so on. He is the machiavellian complex par excellence.


Loki has no regard for justice, righteousness, nobility, or any form of moral excellence. He is hell-bent upon achieving power at any cost. He is amoral like the Joker from The Dark Knight, and adept at trickery and conjuring up schemes. He has a sort of cheeky, arrogant personality like the Joker, too. The relationship between Thor, Loki, and Odin is akin to the Judeo-Christian mythos of Satan/Jesus/Yahweh. Loki would be Satan, Thor would be Jesus, and Odin would be Yahweh.

A side note: I find it interesting that female fans of the Thor films are so head over heals for Loki; he has a more feminine, smooth aura compared with Thor. Thor is very aggressive, macho, and masculine. Naturally, females, in general, are more attracted to rugged alpha-male figures like Thor. But now it seems like the pretty boy is more popular. Could this be a sign of modernistic feminization? Meta-physical lesbianization? Food for thought.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:28 pm

Erik wrote:

A side note: I find it interesting that female fans of the Thor films are so head over heals for Loki; he has a more feminine, smooth aura compared with Thor. Thor is very aggressive, macho, and masculine. Naturally, females, in general, are more attracted to rugged alpha-male figures like Thor. But now it seems like the pretty boy is more popular. Could this be a sign of modernistic feminization? Meta-physical lesbianization? Food for thought.

That's because there is more to the masculine spirit than bulging biceps and brute strength. The very fact that those traits are emulated today IS the nature of feminization. Man losing touch with his spiritual equilibrium and allowing himself to become a manufactured caricature of modern social selection.

Females are attracted, mostly, to what they do not understand. An ugly man with a powerful personality can get as much pussy as the bull-necked simpleton. It about masculine ordering magnetism, intellectual aura. Loki, or at least the actor that plays him, has a striking symmetrical appearance, with a sharp astuteness and witty personality. This combo is irresistible to the female mind, who is attracted to the ordering vortex of man's nature, his ability to suffuse both genetic and mimetic prowess. The actor who plays Thor merely has physical beauty but nothing more. Loki has looks AND brains, making him much more attractive and most importantly...intriguing.

Why is the idea of God placed into a masculine context and the idea of nature, earth, placed into a feminine context? There's a deep symbolic reason for that.

Satyr analyses gender differences in relation to sexual attraction very well in his Feminization Essay.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:01 pm

Loki is the Daemon....masculine with a distinctly feminine flare - Metrosexual, the superhero Dandy.


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:52 pm

Loki is a destroyer.
He's a shape shifter, a trickster, a liar.
He has a talent for enraging the gods, by taunting them with words.
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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:25 am

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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:23 am

Erik wrote:


"A jester was a historical entertainer either employed to entertain a ruler or other nobility in medieval or Tudor times or was an itinerant performer who entertained common folk at fairs and markets.
The Jester in King Lear is brilliant.   He cuts people up with word, generally to cleverly for them to fully get it.   It seems to me there is a trickster aspect to the JOker.   And if Laughing man wanted a better ideal, it would be one of the more flexible forms of the trickster.   They have more than a hammer in their goal toolkit.  To move up to the god level there's Loki.

There's Sam in the Lord of LIght, a not recent, but still would hold up, scifi novel.   Here's a real trickster right up LMs alley, since he takes on a bunch of would be fascist gods in a really rather nicely nihilistic way.

Coyote in NA myths.

You know characters who can have more nuanced responses to other people even enemies.  

Odyseus in some interpretations is a real cynical trickster.


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PostSubject: Re: The Joker Archetype Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:23 am













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