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PostSubject: Ancestry, Parents Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:01 pm

Pagan culture distinguishes itself from Abrahamic culture in many senses, of which one is the prominent place for ancestor-worship/reverence in Paganism, and the absence the practice of honoring the Father and Mother in Christianity, which outright denies human parenthood as worthy.

I think most agree here that ancestry should be a holy value. At the same time I wonder how many of us feel this way about our actual parents.
I would be interested in hearing how you see the relationship with your ancestry, with your parents, and the relationship of your parents with your ancestral tree.

Freud has taught us that we (men) want to kill and fuck our parents. That we must 'own' them in order to be free.
Yes... free from what?
From ancestry, evidently.


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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:13 pm

And biblical stories about a "father" told to kill his one and only son, to prove what a pussy he is to God...and Jesus telling boys to leave their families and their commitment to them, if they wish to be with him....

This entire nihilistic culture is anti-family, anti-blood, anti-past/nature/heritage.
Children told that if they are not to be considered "losers" they must leave their families at 18 to become good servants to the system, and that they ow nothing to anyone but themselves; women told to feel ashamed about their commitment to family, to a man if he is not like her, a female in spirit; old parents cast aside, like garbage, without care.

This is truly a war.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:26 pm

Why don't you go first, FC?

What's your relationship with your ancestry?
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:21 pm

Satyr wrote:
And biblical stories about a "father" told to kill his one and only son, to prove what a pussy he is to God...and Jesus telling boys to leave their families and their commitment to them, if they wish to be with him....

This entire nihilistic culture is anti-family, anti-blood, anti-past/nature/heritage.
Children told that if they are not to be considered "losers" they must leave their families at 18 to become good servants to the system, and that they ow nothing to anyone but themselves; women told to feel ashamed about their commitment to family, to a man if he is not like her, a female in spirit; old parents cast aside, like garbage, without care.

This is truly a war.
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Anything can be taken to extremes.

Elitism/fascism is no less/more retarded than egalitarianism/communism.

There are those both on the left and right side of The, or A spectrum, that blow things out of proportion, embellish, exaggerate.

What about women who're told they can't possibly be anything other than a maid, or what about people so insular, they never learn anything from the outside world, never challenge themselves, and stagnate? In China, one might say they have a history of over-honoring parents, to the point of revering and worshipping them like deities, losing their individuality in the process. If there is a war, maybe it's between sanity and stupidity, rather than left/right. However, there is a certain tribe of people who use radical leftism as a sort of Trojan Horse against their generous hosts.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:36 am

Satyr wrote:

Quote :
And biblical stories about a "father" told to kill his one and only son, to prove what a pussy he is to God...and Jesus telling boys to leave their families and their commitment to them, if they wish to be with him....

Human sacrifices were not an isolated occurrence and it needs to be acknowledged that this was practiced by the Pagans, they worshiped idols, built alters before these idols and it was not uncommon for them to sacrifice their own children to these idols/gods, in the hope of getting some special favour from them.

You have mentioned this a couple of times and it needs to be explained.  Abraham had told Isaac of God's command. Isaac, young and strong, could have told his father to forget the whole idea, but Isaac believed God's plan for him and willingly laid down on the altar. Both Abraham and Isaac had faith that God would raise Isaac to fulfill the promise and plan for him to become a great nation.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:54 am

There is no reverence of the past in the age of socio economic materialism.

In this era only the worship and obedience of the state or money is all that matters.  

Everybody reduced to their economic utility.

Everybody a number of an equation to be quantified.

Everybody a cog or wheel of the mechanical and electronic super organism that calls itself modernity.

Keep your head down and your mind clear of thoughts citizen.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:03 am


Indeed, LaughingMan, I agree with you.




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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:09 am

Satyr wrote:
And biblical stories about a "father" told to kill his one and only son, to prove what a pussy he is to God...and Jesus telling boys to leave their families and their commitment to them, if they wish to be with him....

This entire nihilistic culture is anti-family, anti-blood, anti-past/nature/heritage.
Children told that if they are not to be considered "losers" they must leave their families at 18 to become good servants to the system, and that they ow nothing to anyone but themselves; women told to feel ashamed about their commitment to family, to a man if he is not like her, a female in spirit; old parents cast aside, like garbage, without care.

This is truly a war.
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Śrīmad Bhāgavatam on the Kali Yuga:

SB 12.3.37: ''In Kali-yuga men will be wretched and controlled by women.
They will reject their fathers, brothers, other relatives and friends and will instead associate with the sisters and brothers of their wives.
Thus their conception of friendship will be based exclusively on sexual ties.''


True, I was planning to convert to a religion for some time and eventually came to decide - Islam or Catholicism.
I believed in God, that was what I knew: I respected both the Bible and Quraan, even though I had not picked either, I did not allow any degradation on the concept of God; with the consequences of violence or breaking up the ties.

I always had good relationships with my father, he is a good man in general even though he has certain aspects I do not appreciate at all.
One day, around a year ago, due to some remark he had made to me on this concept I walked away and broke up my ties with him (and one of my sisters and her husband).

To be honest, eventually, I think it is the best for my personal development due to certain aspects.
I appreciate however that he (and my mother) never abandoned me in any situation when I was deemed so often as an 'impossible, stubborn child' - and that he taught me important life lessons.

I remember he always told me to look the other into the eyes, when talking and fighting. He is 2 meters and I as a child to look into his eyes while playful fighting was a hard thing to do.
Also I remember, one day at a train station when I was still a child, some man came at us in unwashed clothes it seemed, and he started talking to my father. He showed his hands and he had some small coins in one of them and talked about how his hand was handicapped (one of his hands looked like, maybe purposely, like a crow feet), he was suffering and asked him for money. While this man did all of this, my father took his mobile phone out of his pocket and started to scroll through it..obviously faked. I was shocked that he did something onrespectful he would never do otherwise..and the poor suffering man.., my father looked a little angered and when the man was done he told him to go and he has no pity.
Afterwards he told me that such persons, he recognise, are deceivers.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:36 am

OhFortunae wrote:

Quote :
True, I was planning to convert to a religion for some time and eventually came to decide - Islam or Catholicism.


According to the Catechism, 'together with us (Catholics) they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God.' Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: 'We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection' (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops,

According to the Pope, they are one and the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:00 am

Fixed Cross wrote:

I think most agree here that ancestry should be a holy value. At the same time I wonder how many of us feel this way about our actual parents.
I would be interested in hearing how you see the relationship with your ancestry, with your parents, and the relationship of your parents with your ancestral tree.

I acknowledge that 'I am' due to the genetic make-up of both my mother and father..
I am interested in looking into my parents' history and I am proud that I have such ''exceptional'' (in these times) parents.
My family is shettered in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and Sweden. We came only together in Sweden, from all these places, to celebrate my great-grand mother's birthday.
But since she died 1 and a half year ago, the center is gone and thus all falls apart. Truly a great person she was, and her daughter, my grand mother also.

My mother is born from a Flemish father and a Swedish mother, in Sweden.
She grew up in Flemish Belgium and speaks and understands 5 languages.
My father is of Dutch-German ancestry. Born in the Netherlands, grew partly up in Germany and moved back again to the Netherlands all in his youth. He speaks 4 languages.
Both like to read; as a child he was memorizing the Dutch translation of the poetic Edda and I can recognize myself in him by his search for a religion in his youth but did not eventually.

Thus, shortly told how they met.
My father wanted to go to the North Cape on his bicycle from Eindhoven just for the sake of personal achievement and his love for sport and to be in nature.
My mother wanted to go to Sweden on her bicycle to visit her family, and of course liking to be outside in nature. Thus she left from Nieuwpoort in Flemish Belgium.
They met, I believe in Denmark, both spoke Dutch, went in the same direction and decided to go together. From one came the other.

They still have a lot of old news paper articles in which they told their stories,
I am interested in delving deeper into it to better understand their past and possibly, gain more selfknowledge - after all, I have their genes.


My first memories are in Sweden, my father took me out of kindergarten to travel for 6 months in Sweden and visit family together with my grandmother of my mothers side.
Tents, forests, mountains, catching my first fish, lakes, visiting rocks with runes, rowing in boats, having fun with my father, grand and great grand mother, my first bike; Carmina Burana and Yodel to be my first taste in music.
Instead of being filtered within the educational system from year 3; I have had a privilege for having such an life fundament.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:04 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
OhFortunae wrote:

Quote :
True, I was planning to convert to a religion for some time and eventually came to decide - Islam or Catholicism.


According to the Catechism, 'together with us (Catholics) they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God.' Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: 'We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection' (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops,

According to the Pope, they are one and the same.

I was more into Vaticanum I (pre-60's), an sedevacantist. Cultural was my search at first.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:39 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
Satyr wrote:

Quote :
And biblical stories about a "father" told to kill his one and only son, to prove what a pussy he is to God...and Jesus telling boys to leave their families and their commitment to them, if they wish to be with him....

Human sacrifices were not an isolated occurrence and it needs to be acknowledged that this was practiced by the Pagans, they worshiped idols, built alters before these idols and it was not uncommon for them to sacrifice their own children to these idols/gods, in the hope of getting some special favour from them.
Really?
Can you tell me of one where a parent sacrifices his own children and not a scapegoat, some sacrificial stand-in...human or animal?

reasonvemotion wrote:
You have mentioned this a couple of times and it needs to be explained.  Abraham had told Isaac of God's command. Isaac, young and strong, could have told his father to forget the whole idea, but Isaac believed God's plan for him and willingly laid down on the altar. Both Abraham and Isaac had faith that God would raise Isaac to fulfill the promise and plan for him to become a great nation.
Ah, so blind faith....
You, as a parent, would kill your own child, with your own hands, because some voice in your head told you to do it, or because some words in a book told you?

So, the entire affair was a joke, a test everyone knew was not serious?

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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:40 am

The Semitic people in the region of Levant (Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon) used to have a pagan god named Moloch, whom some claim was satan himself. People would sacrifice their children to this false God, they would sacrifice their children by throwing them into fire with the graven image of this idol nearby. The Bible even speaks of this:

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 18:21)

The ancient Celts were also notorious in Human sacrificing as J.A. MacCulloch writes in his book, The Religion of the Ancient Celts':

"The Semites are often considered the worst offenders in the matter of human sacrifice, but in this, according to classical evidence, they were closely rivalled by the Celts of Gaul. They offered human victims on the principle of a life for a life, or to propitiate the gods, or in order to divine the future from the entrails of the victim".
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:24 am

reasonvemotion wrote:
The Semitic people in the region of Levant (Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon) used to have a pagan god named Moloch, whom some claim was satan himself. People would sacrifice their children to this false God, they would sacrifice their children by throwing them into fire with the graven image of this idol nearby.
Semites were deprived peoples.

In healthy Indo-European tribes family was central.
No man would harm his own blood.
They would deify their won dead.

Your christian myths leave me unimpressed.

The Bible even speaks of this:

reasonvemotion wrote:
The ancient Celts were also notorious in Human sacrificing as J.A. MacCulloch writes in his book, The Religion of the Ancient Celts':

"The Semites are often considered the worst offenders in the matter of human sacrifice, but in this, according to classical evidence, they were closely rivalled by the Celts of Gaul. They offered human victims on the principle of a life for a life, or to propitiate the gods, or in order to divine the future from the entrails of the victim".
Human sacrifices are not sacrificing your only begotten won, woman.

Human sacrifices YES!!!
Family no.
Only in the bible is a father told to kill his own son, because the christian God is so insecure he needs constant validation.
Jesus tells his apostles to leave their families and their jobs and commit themselves exclusively to him...
He is their family.
A diseased mythology for a diseased people.

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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:34 am

Moloch
From Wikipedia,

As a god worshipped by the Phoenicians and Canaanites, Moloch had associations with a particular kind of propitiatory child sacrifice by parents.

Moloch figures in the Book of Deuteronomy and in the Book of Leviticus as a form of idolatry

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Biblical texts

The word here translated literally as 'seed' very often means offspring.

According to Biblical texts, the laws given to Moses by God expressly forbade the Israelites to do what was done in Egypt or in Canaan.

Leviticus 20:2–5:
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whoever he be of the children of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth his seed unto Molech, and kill him not, then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

In John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667), Moloch is one of the greatest warriors of the fallen angels,
Milton's Paradise Lost

"First MOLOCH, horrid King besmear'd with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents tears,
Though, for the noyse of Drums and Timbrels loud,
Their children's cries unheard that passed through fire
To his grim Idol. Him the AMMONITE
Worshipt in RABBA and her watry Plain,
In ARGOB and in BASAN, to the stream
Of utmost ARNON. Nor content with such
Audacious neighbourhood, the wisest heart
Of SOLOMON he led by fraud to build
His Temple right against the Temple of God
On that opprobrious Hill, and made his Grove
The pleasant Vally of HINNOM, TOPHET thence
And black GEHENNA call'd, the Type of Hell."
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:17 am

I get along well with both of my parents, fortunately. I don't worship them in the conventional sense, but I have deep love for them. And I feel even more close to them ever since I was diagnosed with cancer. I don't mean to brag, but most of the people I know don't have a close connection to their parents the way I do.  A lot of people my age are somewhat alienated from their parents, pushed away by their authoritarianism, religion, excessive standards, and so on.

I feel closest to my mother; she has always been caring and understanding of me. I didn't spend much time with my father as a child as my parents separated, but in my early teens, I began visiting him, and spending much time with him, making up for past years. It's unfortunate because I needed him most when I was younger, I needed him to guide me in the way of manhood. I had to find the path myself, the hard way.




My Father is a Mexican national, but his ancestors immigrated from Spain. My mother's ancestors immigrated to the United States from Germany. I'm mostly of European descent, but I do have a hint of indigenous Aztec/Mayan ancestry. When I was younger, I didn't care much about my race or heritage, but now, I feel more proud of my roots, of my past. This, of course, is the result of Satyr's lectures on knowing thyself, knowing your past.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:57 pm

Grandmother came from Lorraine, France.  My grandfather came from Munich, Germany.

My father supposedly was a Jew from Hungary.

The rest as they say is all history.

Those are some pleasant photos Erik. Be thankful that you had a family as some of us were not so lucky or fortunate by comparison.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:03 pm

My mother is Irish. My father is English... Yes, they're divorced... Apparently on my father's side, we're related to Calvin Coolidge and even have ancestors going all the way back to the Pilgrims (settlers of Plymouth colony).

I've noticed a lot of British people here.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:12 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
My mother is Irish.  My father is English... Yes, they're divorced... Apparently on my father's side, we're related to Calvin Coolidge and even have ancestors going all the way back to the Pilgrims (settlers of Plymouth colony).

I've noticed a lot of British people here.

Where is " here "?
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:51 pm

LaughingMan wrote:

Quote :
My father supposedly was a Jew from Hungary.

and your Mother?
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:46 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:

Quote :
My father supposedly was a Jew from Hungary.

and your Mother?

A combination of German and French from my grandparents.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:31 pm

Erik wrote:
Where is " here "?

This forum
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:40 pm

perpetualburn wrote:
Erik wrote:
Where is " here "?

This forum

Ah, okay.

Are you from the States?
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:41 pm

I'm from Mass... as it says under location.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:17 pm

Wowman, learn use to use quote marks to differentiate the quoted material from your sermons.

It looks like this ---->    "     "  

Get it?

[and btw., for posting a youtube video, you---->  [youtube]  link [ /youtube]      


- - -



Quote :
""Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven; he is my brother and sister and mother.  (Matthew 12:46-50)…For I have come to set a man against his father, [a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man's enemies will be those of his own household].” (Mat. 10:34-6)

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Heisman wrote:
"God is almost identical with the defining ability to change one’s “source code”. While DNA, the “source code” of biological life, has been largely unchangeable until recently, Judaism took a leap forward with a systematic Mosaic override of the highest rules of behavior. The laws of Moses were an innovation comparable to a prospective artificial intelligence’s ability to change its own source code. By taking a step towards changing the sociobiological source code of the Jews, the non-biological intelligence of Mosaic law launched the ultimate messianic trajectory of monotheism. The final step in this trajectory for biological humans is the transfer of the informational content of human biological roots into the memes of a digital computational technology.

The deepest roots of Biblical monotheism demonstrate its deepest rootlessness. Abraham’s willingness to kill his son Isaac at the command of God is the classic demonstration that God is not be confused with family values or biological values. God is not slavery to the laws of genetic preservation. Abraham’s willingness to kill his son represents the ultimate, irreconcilable conflict between genes and memes; the ultimate conflict between the rule of biology and the rule of God. The end logic of monotheism was latent in its beginnings." [Suicide Note]



Death according to the OT and the Bible is not a natural condition of humanity.  It is an aberration.  When man was created he was not created to die, but to live indefinitely; “just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Romans 5:12", while pagan sacrifices understood life and death as what kept the connection between the gods and the humans going... like in the case of Iphigenia as Kierkegaard compared to show why they were different--- here it is Agammemnon's promise to the Gods for favourable auspices, an oath-keeping, than the other way of God asking for a promise, a faith as in the case of Abraham.

The stalling of Isaac's sacrifice was to promise no death would ever come to the believer, etc.
It is a rhetoric where the father portrayed as ready to kill his son is replaced by God's mercy, as the real life-giving, benevolent father.
This is a clear announcement of who is the real Father of all fathers.

The prevention of sacrifice is taken on by Christ's sacrifice where I have elsewhere quoted was The sacrifice to end all sacrifice.
This morality is what gives Judeo-Xt. its hyper-inflation - the Chosen Ones and the cult of equality where no one is to be sacrificed, killed, because all have either special worth [Judaism] or equal worth [Xt.] in the eyes of God.



Quote :
"passage from Genesis 22 Abraham is instructed by Yahweh to sacrifice his son Isaac as a burnt offering. We are told as follows:


Quote :
'After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” He said, “Take your son, your only-begotten son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori'ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; and he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off. Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.” And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here am I, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” Abraham said, “God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

When they came to the place of which God had told them, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only begotten son, from me.” And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called the name of that place The Lord will provide; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.'”



Now in the above we should notice that there is no explicit or implicit judgement on the immorality of the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. Indeed we should note that Abraham does not even protest that he has been asked by Yahweh to sacrifice his only son to him, but rather goes along with the whole idea as it were the most normal thing in the world.

This in itself is suggestive of the fact that human sacrifice was something with which Abraham was at least familiar and may well have performed before if we note the fact that he knew precisely what to do to perform such a sacrifice. In so far as Abraham had Isaac help him carry the wood and fire to the mountain on which he was to sacrifice him; which is hardly the sort of trap that someone concocts on an impulse after being told to go and murder your only son, and also takes two servants with him for no explicable reason (as we are told that they aren't necessary to carry the wood) other than as extra muscle should Abraham not be successful in subduing Isaac.

Even this aside the lack of explicit or implicit condemnation of the practice of human sacrifice is problematic for those who wish to see this as purely an extreme test of faith and obedience: as clearly Yahweh has asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son as a burnt offering as if he were like the ram whose horns were caught in a thicket. This necessarily tells us that human sacrifice; especially of first-born sons, cannot have been alien to Abraham and Yahweh as well as the fact that the directive from Yahweh itself, the lack of resistance to it by Abraham and the subsequent lauding of Abraham's faith and obedience gives obvious positive connotations to the idea of human sacrifice; particularly in relation to first-born sons or children, which can be easily interpreted to suggest that the practice is an acceptable one in situations where a jew or jews wishes to prove their absolute fidelity to Yahweh in order to avert perceived disaster."

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Quote :
"the proximity of the designated human victim was lending the ritual its riveting power, the substitution of an animal surrogate was reminding Israel of its moral superiority over its historical contemporaries, whose sacrificial fires smoked all too regularly with the flesh of human victims. Paradoxically, the fact that the liturgy might revert to human sacrifice lent the ritual the degree of intensity necessary to insure that it would conclude without reverting to human sacrifice."

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This explains the Moloch prohibition as in the first Babylonian Talmud;

Quote :
"MISHNAH. HE WHO GIVES OF HIS SEED TO MOLECH INCURS NO PUNISHMENT UNLESS HE DELIVERS IT TO MOLECH AND CAUSES IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE. IF HE GAVE IT TO MOLECH BUT DID NOT CAUSE IT TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE, OR THE REVERSE, HE INCURS NO PENALTY, UNLESS HE DOES BOTH."  [Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 64a
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 437]

Lev. XVIII, 21. This proves that the offence consists of two parts; (i) formal delivery to the priests, and (ii) causing the seed to pass through the fire.
— Rabbi Dr. Freedman

As two separate offences, proving that giving one's seed to Molech is not idolatry. The differences [sic] is, that if one sacrificed to Molech, or caused his son to pass through the fire to some other deity, he is not punished.
— Rabbi Dr. Freedman

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In other words, what is punished is the sacrificing of children via fire to another deity, it being considered idolatory;

Quote :
"the story of Abraham and Isaac, for here we find not complete transformation, made from an anti human-sacrificial standpoint, but a phase of transition, in which the yearning for human sacrifice is still struggling with the desire to abolish it. The purpose of the story is to show that God Himself ordained that animal sacrifice should be substituted for human sacrifice. At the same time, the story contains no moral revulsion from the very idea of human sacrifice. On the contrary, it is imputed to Abraham as extraordinary merit that he was willing to sacrifice his favourite son, Isaac, at the behest of God." [The Sacred Executioner]]


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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:19 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Pagan culture distinguishes itself from Abrahamic culture in many senses, of which one is the prominent place for ancestor-worship/reverence in Paganism, and the absence the practice of honoring the Father and Mother in Christianity, which outright denies human parenthood as worthy.
Freud has taught us that we (men) want to kill and fuck our parents. That we must 'own' them in order to be free.
Yes... free from what?
From ancestry, evidently.


Indo-European ancestry worship is a synthesis of the mortal [heroic] and the immortal [divine] element.

Gods of the I.E. pantheons are the Ancestors who were heroic, and Heroes come to be revered as one's ancestor.



Quote :
""Suffice it now to add another overt comparandum besides Indic mánas- on one side and Greek ménos on the other: the Indic word pitŕ̥- 'ancestor' is directly cognate with the Greek element patro- of Patro-kléēs, a name that literally means 'he who has the glory [kléos] of the ancestors [patéres]. In view of Erwin Rohde's observation that the Funeral of Patroklos in the Iliad bears the distinct features of hero cult and that the cult of heroes is itself an institution that evolved from the worship of ancestors, we may recover an Indo-European theme.
I cite Rohde's thesis that the cult of heroes was a highly evolved transformation of the worship of ancestors—a transformation that took place within the social context of the polis. This thesis, perhaps most appealing from the viewpoint of cultural anthropology, allows room for considering the constituent elements of hero cults to go back far beyond the eighth century. In other words, we can posit a lengthy prehistory for not only the epics of heroes but also the cults of heroes, with this qualification... The strong eighth-century upsurge in the local cults of heroes can thus be viewed as a phenomenon parallel to—rather than derivative from—the pan-Hellenic epics of heroes, namely, the Iliad and Odyssey.

Thus the ideological heritage of Greek heroes may still in principle be reconstructed as Indo-European in character.
Both the Iliad and the Odyssey reveal a pervasive theme that implicitly tells of a hero's parallelism, not only in character but also in action, with a corresponding god."[Nagy, Greek Mythology and Poetics]



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The Goux thread on Oedipus here, explains it is the avoidance of initiation by a trial-setting father, that ends up with the father's death and inheriting a false sovereignty.

Self-Affirmation in the broadest sense of your whole lineage, and the whole organic past that made you possible, is the Surpassing of your father, of your hero, of your ancestors, in their affirmation - which is the fulfilling of the fate they bequeath you.

Sovereignty is a potlatch of the wealth you have inherited from every quarter, and it is by affirming every quarter, by paying off the debts you've received - through expenditure, sacrifice, offerings, you liberate yourself, your individuality, and you are what guenon calls Dig-Vijay [Quarter-Winner]. The quarters under your control then move around you, and the Digvijay therefore becomes a wheel-turner, a cakra-vartin.

North, South, East, West stands for gods, ancestors, heroes, etc., i.e. ancestral wealth, divine wealth, natural wealth, etc. (not resp.).  [Vaastu or Feng Shui exploits this.]

Liberating yourself via sacrifices to the quarters is Initiating yourself in the sense of extending your Initial, your arche.
Your initial [name] is your arche [genius of your ancestry].


Lyssa wrote:
The five daily sacrifices:

- Honouring the gods with burnt offerings,
- the ancestors with libations,
- the seers/poets/teachers by remembering daily, the ancient Aryan wisdom, living the ancestral way,
- sacrificing to all beings like plants and animals, at least with water,
- and all humans by honouring them with hospitality as guests.
Sayers: Feeding the Ancestors

Apart from sacrifices to the gods and fathers, the teacher becomes included. This is easy to accept when you realize, initially your Father or the head of your Clan was your Teacher.
To the Vedics, these five sacrifices were relief from the triple debt one owed to one's gods, fathers, and teachers.
Animals and plants were regarded as 'family-wealth', and guest-hospitality as 'family-fame'.

So basically, every sacrifice was regarded as a 'self'-sacrifice.
Evola reminds us of this interconnectivity between the two paths; of how an ancestor becomes a hero, and a hero becomes a god/god-like...

"The regal idea occurs in an already weakened form when it no longer becomes incarnated in beings who are naturally above human limitations, but rather in beings who must develop this quality within themselves. In the ancient Hellenic tradition, such a distinction corresponded analogically to that between a "god' (Olympian ideal) and a "hero." In terms of the Roman tradition this distinction was formally sanctioned through the titles of deus and divus, the latter always designating a man who had become a god, the former designating a being who had always been a god. What emerges in this context is a situation in which there is a certain distance between the person and the function being exercised: in order for a person to embody a certain function what is required is a specific action capable of producing in him a new quality; this action may appear either in the form of an initiation or of an investiture (or consecration). In the first case this action has a relatively autonomous and direct character; in the second case it is mediated, or it takes place from the outside through a priestly caste distinct from the regal caste." [Evola, Revolt against the Modern World]

The Germanic expression for this self-consecration was the Valknot.

The Vedics call this sacred investiture - a thin consecrated cord of three cotton strands worn, to symbolize the "three debts" one owes to one's gods, one's ancestors, and one's seers/teachers/initiators/poets.

A Vedic-Aryan was thus a twice- or thrice-born by performing the five daily sacrifices to relieve himself of his triple debt. The wearing of his triple-girdle is an oath and a birth to himself - a sacrifice of himself to himself from his 'gods' [spiritual birth], his ancestors [biological birth], and his teachers [intellectual birth].

To be an Aryan is Self-possession In the three: in words, deeds, and thoughts respectively.



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Without mythology, there would be no culture, no standards, against which a rebellious hero can take birth to set up a surpassed standard.

Idol, Ancestry and Hero worship is the hearth of a lineage, a race, a nation in that order...



Nietzsche wrote:
Ennoblement through degeneration. History teaches us that that part of a people maintains itself best whose members generally share a vital public spirit, due to the similarity of their long-standing, incontrovertible principles, that is, of their common faith. In their case, good, sound custom strengthens them; they are taught to subordinate the individual, and their character is given solidity, at first innately and later through education. The danger in these strong communities, founded on similar, steadfast individual members, is an increasing, inherited stupidity, which follows all stability like a shadow. In such communities, spiritual progress depends on those individuals who are less bound, much less certain, and morally weaker; they are men who try new things, and many different things. Because of their weakness, countless such men are destroyed without having much visible effect; but in general, especially if they have descendants, they loosen things up, and, from time to time, deliver a wound to the stable element of a community. Precisely at this wounded, weakened place, the common body is inoculated, so to speak, with something new; however, the community's overall strength, has to be great enough to take this new thing into its bloodstream and assimilate it. Wherever progress is to ensue, deviating natures are of greatest importance. Every progress of the whole must be preceded by a partial weakening. The strongest natures retain the type, the weaker ones help to advance it." [HATH, 224]



Traditionalism Inspires Heroism, and vice-versa.

Coulanges wrote:
[size=12]"Greek and Roman civilization is shown to have been based upon the worship of men's dead ancestors; from which worship, and not so much from the right of labour, were derived the idea of property and the old laws of succession.

In point of fact, it was religion inspired the idea of property, as it had constituted the family; and those three things were inseparable ; the altar with its sacred fire, the family who erected it, and the soil on which it was built. The altar and the tomb connected the family with the soil, and the soil was only conceived of as appropriated because there the dead were interred, and there the living made offerings to their shades." [Ancient City]

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*


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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:53 pm

My mother is full Scot.

My father's mother is Irish and a devout Trotskyite Commie.
My father's father was Black from the Caribbean.
I never knew either of my Grandfathers and my mother's mother I only became acquainted with recently.

My father has a number of children by 4 different women, each of a significantly different race. I am the eldest and the only one with recessive features (green eyes, blonde hair).

Relations are sometimes difficult. I spend less and less time with family each year, except for my full brothers whom I attempt to guide where I can. To my mind, honouring my ancestors is a 'taking-stock' and re-affirming of intentions from me onwards. No shame or self-denial, just a commitment to pass on what I have in the right direction and in good health.

And, just to maximize disorientation, I was given an obscure Old Testament name (and not an innocuous one like 'David' etc) after my father's brother, who was killed by racist police officers whilst in custody at age 17. True story.

The benefit to all of this is a thirst to justify my existence and a need to ground myself in reality that most full-blooded Europeans, even those on my IQ level, do not exhibit. The cost is a need for frequent solitude and personal recollection/introspection.

I believe Nietzsche said something about chaos and dancing stars which might make a good personal motto. If anyone is particularly adept at quoting things... they might know the one I'm referring to...
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:57 pm

" One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star." - Nietzsche

A beautiful quote.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:00 pm

Strongarm88 wrote:


I believe Nietzsche said something about chaos and dancing stars which might make a good personal motto. If anyone is particularly adept at quoting things... they might know the one I'm referring to...

Nietzsche wrote:
"I say unto you: one must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: you still have chaos in yourselves. Alas, the time is coming when a man will no longer give birth to a star. Alas, the time of the most despicable man is coming, he that is no longer able to despise himself. Behold, I show you the last man."

Zarathustra respectively. One of my favorites by N.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:37 pm

KTS philosophy has made me realize that my anger at my parents must subside, and they deserve my near complete respect. Selfishness would be best to be so intertwined with one's ancestors that one doesn't even need approach the issue of what's best for self when considering them. But, until that becomes the case, I look at it from a selfish perspective. They constitute almost everything about me, every word from them is worth heeding, and as I become more and more educated in KTS philosophy, or pagan ideas I'm able to take more from their words. Quality is of course better than quantity.

The idea is to get past liberalism where supposedly everything which is or was lacking can be made up for in some way. Those raised in uncaring orphanages will always be searching for what was missing and chances are will never find anything close to it, and will always remain weak. That's not a form of negative judgment, just an honest evaluation.

Having had both parents doesn't mean I wasn't still lacking. I lacked support and guidance from a larger family, not living close to any other relatives, and my parents themselves were what they had to be to survive and raise me and my siblings, which of course is those who compromise. That which was lacking for me is not something I can wish away, it will always be a cause of weakness in me, that I can only try to make up for with other strengths.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:07 am

My father's ancestors were first founded in Berwickshire and his ancestors led the first Virginia settlement.

My grandfather's ancestors on my mother's side, were commonly believed to be of French origin but were more accurately of Viking origin, they invaded France and settled in Normandy, then Northhampton. A family name capable of being traced back to Hastings.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:10 am

Boopy Doll wrote

Quote :
Wowman, learn use to use quote marks to differentiate the quoted material from your sermons.

It looks like this ---->    "     "  

Get it?

[and btw., for posting a youtube video, you---->  [youtube]  link [ /youtube]    

Did he do this to you?  All this bitterness as a result of loving him too much Smile 



Abraham's faith and commitment were a test.  Abraham's confidence was so firm he was willing to relinquish the gift, (Isaac) and throw himself into the arms of God and have trust and faith in his forgiveness.  

"God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son," he said (Gen. 22:8, NIV).   He was so confident he said to the servants, "Stay here.... We will worship and then we will come back to you"  (verse 5, NIV).  Cross reference Genesis 17:2  "Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." God revealed himself as one who does not condone sin and yet is merciful.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:55 am

You know it was a "test" after-the-fact.
For Abraham it was a command.

And he was willing to sacrifice, with his own hand, his own blood, to the voices in his head.
Some would call that insane, but it is also effete, and degrading.
Any "God" so vain, demanding such symbolic acts to make himself above BLOOD, I no god of mine.
He belongs to the Jews, and they can have him.  

Any people who must cut a piece of the penis, off, mutilate a boy, to mark him as the symbolically castrated follower of god, deserves the god they've constructed as their ideal image of themselves: vain, petty, life-hating.

Would I sacrifice an enemy?
Definitely, and with pleasure.

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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:03 pm

The Wowman's handler, whoever that "fine young man" is who "advised her to ignore me" should take notice of how she displays her personal obsession and incoherence, for my asking her to soruce her comments properly, unless of course he too is only emotionally wired,,unless of course there's no such supporter in the first place and she simply made him up.

-

Wowman wrote:
Did he do this to you?

He does a lot of things to me.

Quote :
All this bitterness as a result of loving him too much

Cant get over him even after two goodbye videos? No one else will do, no? I can understand.

But that's another matter. Its deplorable when you scratch at my panties because you want me to love you.
Are you jealous of what I give him? Its not a movie set, dear. We do not play Henry and June here, dear.

Anymore incoherent or unrelated remarks in the middle of a serious thread, or improperly sourced unformatted replies [no quotations, no links, no reference to the material you are providing], I will send those posts to the dungeon. Does just hearing the word love soothe you?

Does it soothe you to project yourself into me and imagine me with him?

Do I (ful)fill your fantasies?

I can now understand your attraction, your obsession with me... Satyr does have that charisma.

If you want to start a personal thread about how 'I' [i.e.you] love him or how 'I' love him too much or how 'I' f---ing love him too much, keep your inane projections in the dungeon, or you are always free to just 'go combust in a corner'.

-


Wowman wrote:
Abraham's faith and commitment were a test.  Abraham's confidence was so firm he was willing to relinquish the gift, (Isaac) and throw himself into the arms of God and have trust and faith in his forgiveness.  

"God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son," he said (Gen. 22:8, NIV).   He was so confident he said to the servants, "Stay here.... We will worship and then we will come back to you"  (verse 5, NIV).  Cross reference Genesis 17:2  "Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." God revealed himself as one who does not condone sin and yet is merciful.


Abraham's lack of surprise and the very fact that God stalled the sacrifice TO PLACE HIMSELF as the FATHER AS THE LIFE-GIVER, just goes to show J-Xt. advocates genetic severance and promotes memetic covenants to define itself.


Again,

Heisman wrote:
"God is almost identical with the defining ability to change one’s “source code”. While DNA, the “source code” of biological life, has been largely unchangeable until recently, Judaism took a leap forward with a systematic Mosaic override of the highest rules of behavior. The laws of Moses were an innovation comparable to a prospective artificial intelligence’s ability to change its own source code. By taking a step towards changing the sociobiological source code of the Jews, the non-biological intelligence of Mosaic law launched the ultimate messianic trajectory of monotheism. The final step in this trajectory for biological humans is the transfer of the informational content of human biological roots into the memes of a digital computational technology.

The deepest roots of Biblical monotheism demonstrate its deepest rootlessness. Abraham’s willingness to kill his son Isaac at the command of God is the classic demonstration that God is not be confused with family values or biological values. God is not slavery to the laws of genetic preservation. Abraham’s willingness to kill his son represents the ultimate, irreconcilable conflict between genes and memes; the ultimate conflict between the rule of biology and the rule of God. The end logic of monotheism was latent in its beginnings." [Suicide Note]

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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:50 pm

..... I am innocent.  Shocked 
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:38 pm

Satyr wrote:
And biblical stories about a "father" told to kill his one and only son, to prove what a pussy he is to God...and Jesus telling boys to leave their families and their commitment to them, if they wish to be with him....

This entire nihilistic culture is anti-family, anti-blood, anti-past/nature/heritage.
Children told that if they are not to be considered "losers" they must leave their families at 18 to become good servants to the system, and that they ow nothing to anyone but themselves; women told to feel ashamed about their commitment to family, to a man if he is not like her, a female in spirit; old parents cast aside, like garbage, without care.

This is truly a war.

My thoughts exactly.

Divergense wrote:
Why don't you go first, FC?

What's your relationship with your ancestry?

Concerning my parents, for a while I fell for the propaganda that says you have to reject your parents to be free. That was a bad time. It didn't work, as I am very close to them, it caused me a lot of heart-pain and of course it just complicated the relationship I had with them. Thankfully I became aware of what I was doing, and saw how stupid and ungrateful it was. It was easy to change the pattern back to a healthy relating as this has been my impulse all along -- I had truly fallen for Freud's bullshit.


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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:52 pm

OhFortunae wrote:

I acknowledge that 'I am' due to the genetic make-up of both my mother and father..
I am interested in looking into my parents' history and I am proud that I have such ''exceptional'' (in these times) parents.
My family is shettered in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and Sweden. We came only together in Sweden, from all these places, to celebrate my great-grand mother's birthday.
But since she died 1 and a half year ago, the center is gone and thus all falls apart. Truly a great person she was, and her daughter, my grand mother also.

My mother is born from a Flemish father and a Swedish mother, in Sweden.
She grew up in Flemish Belgium and speaks and understands 5 languages.
My father is of Dutch-German ancestry. Born in the Netherlands, grew partly up in Germany and moved back again to the Netherlands all in his youth. He speaks 4 languages.
Both like to read; as a child he was memorizing the Dutch translation of the poetic Edda and I can recognize myself in him by his search for a religion in his youth but did not eventually.

That is exactly what I was talking about. I actually thought about teaching my children (which I don't have now) the Eddas, a while after I had written this. Nice.

Families fall apart when the patriarch or matriarch leaves the stage - so many conflicts come to the surface. In the best case, all the involved realize their shared gift of life and respect their differences. But they will see less of each other and grow in different directions. People can even come to hate each other, when each sees how the other fall from the tree and rolls down the hill of his own necessities.

Ancestry-cults are designed to prevent such differences to turn into feuds, as well as to protect common ethnographic preferences of which most of the individuals may not be aware, but which mark a segment of the human tree nevertheless.

Quote :
Thus, shortly told how they met.
My father wanted to go to the North Cape on his bicycle from Eindhoven just for the sake of personal achievement and his love for sport and to be in nature.
My mother wanted to go to Sweden on her bicycle to visit her family, and of course liking to be outside in nature. Thus she left from Nieuwpoort in Flemish Belgium.
They met, I believe in Denmark, both spoke Dutch, went in the same direction and decided to go together. From one came the other.

They still have a lot of old news paper articles in which they told their stories,
I am interested in delving deeper into it to better understand their past and possibly, gain more selfknowledge - after all, I have their genes.


My first memories are in Sweden, my father took me out of kindergarten to travel for 6 months in Sweden and visit family together with my grandmother of my mothers side.
Tents, forests, mountains, catching my first fish, lakes, visiting rocks with runes, rowing in boats, having fun with my father, grand and great grand mother, my first bike; Carmina Burana and Yodel to be my first taste in music.
Instead of being filtered within the educational system from year 3; I have had a privilege for having such an life fundament.

To introduce a child to the elements must be one of the most gratifying works nature ever devised for herself. This is much better than trying to cultivate the spirit of a child by granting it all its wishes. A child does not know what there is to wish for.

Beautiful Sweden. I've only seen the southern tip of it but the people impressed me with an extremely relaxed rationality, and a very obvious health. I must say that people in Noord-Holland aren't too unhealthy looking either. The Dutch in general are pretty robust and well rounded - the only problem with them is their opportunism and mistrust of noble ideas. That is from living amidst them and speaking in general. I have much higher opinion of the North-Sea-coast people, they are uninhibited. If you walk on the North-Dutch beach on a summers day, the chirping of children is disorienting, psychedelic - amazing freedom, in every single person except those that are flaunting themselves, one or two lost souls.

Yes, I have recently gained the strange and unexpected confidence that here in the North of Europe an untroubled human type is being raised. There is a lot of money here and a great lack of care for the truth, especially in politics. A combination of social arrogance and athletic ambition - very offensive in some cases, but generally a sign of an awakening spirit.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:00 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
the chirping of children is disorienting, psychedelic - amazing freedom, in every single person except those that are flaunting themselves, one or two lost souls.

Yes, I have recently gained the strange and unexpected confidence that here in the North of Europe an untroubled human type is being raised. There is a lot of money here and a great lack of care for the truth, especially in politics. A combination of social arrogance and athletic ambition - very offensive in some cases, but generally a sign of an awakening spirit.

Quote :
"I say unto you: one must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: you still have chaos in yourselves. Alas, the time is coming when a man will no longer give birth to a star. Alas, the time of the most despicable man is coming, he that is no longer able to despise himself. Behold, I show you the last man." - Nietzsche

Interesting.

I wonder...
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:03 pm

I wonder if it is not necessary to shed Nietzsche's pessimism. Now that the last man has become a reality, it is of no use talking about him anymore - we can only begin the work of figuring out how to isolate the still-vital humanity from the dead pool of settled-in commonality.
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PostSubject: Re: Ancestry, Parents Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:40 pm

reasonvemotion wrote:

Abraham's faith and commitment were a test.  Abraham's confidence was so firm he was willing to relinquish the gift, (Isaac) and throw himself into the arms of God and have trust and faith in his forgiveness.
Confdence would lead one to defy even God or what seems like God.  That is confidence and that is love, especially parental love.   If it were to turn out that God is an uncaring evil shit, then I would stand against God.   And it would be God's or god's (in demiurge situations) own fault, since my nature does not go along with sacrifing my kid.   God messed up in creation if that's what he wanted from me. For all Abraham knows God thought he failed the test, what are you a robot, Abraham? I expect my toaster to toast on command but you are a human:

Further Abraham did not know it was a test.   And let's look for a moment at what God as a Father is doing, there.   One of his children, Abraham, is being asked to kill his own child.  What loving father would tell his son to kill his son as part of a test?

Quote :
"God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son," he said (Gen. 22:8, NIV).   He was so confident he said to the servants, "Stay here.... We will worship and then we will come back to you"  (verse 5, NIV).  Cross reference Genesis 17:2  "Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." God revealed himself as one who does not condone sin and yet is merciful.
God actually acted like some spoiled rich noble fucking with one of his servants.   Not that I think that was God in Abraham's head.
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