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PostSubject: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:03 am

I am still waiting for Lyssa or perhaps even Satyr to give a concise definition and explanation for what noble elitism is.

I want to know what noble elitism looks like when it is applied.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:37 am

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Elitism refers to the presence of a excess of the noble principles in a an individual, which would then incline him/her to relate to a group of individuals who are alike.

The type has manifested in different way, throughout history.
The environment determines how this psychological type will express itself in any given time-period within particular socioeconomic circumstances.

As a theatrical example of the type, presented in an exaggerated, and a symbolic (metaphorical) form to pronounce the traits and how they would express themselves in a Modern (urban, western, capitalist - nihilistic) environment we have Harrison's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
A perfect caricature, presented in three distinct modes: young man/man/old man.

The female variant has not, as yet and to my knowledge, been adequately represented in art.
At least not as thoroughly as the male variant has.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:03 pm

LaughingMan wrote:
I am still waiting for Lyssa or perhaps even Satyr to give a concise definition and explanation for what noble elitism is.

I want to know what noble elitism looks like when it is applied.

Noble elitism is the calm born of cold discrimination and bold self-awareness. A Heightened consciousness that has observed, analyzed, lived, experienced, vast spectrums of life, raises it to a knowledge and a far-sightedness that puts distance between it and all the rest. This "distance" is born of honest "clarity" with oneself and the world.

This "distance" is not the same as the "distance" in the ladder of the corporate elites who have climbed via capital, and for whom maximizing capital is the sole end.

A Noble elite is a creative individual. He "creates wealth"... in the form of capital-irreducible art, visions, philosophy, etc.

He distinguishes himself from the rest and the plutocratic elite because of his overflowing spirit - his abundant consciousness, which is his real wealth and power.
His spirit is masculine and it Wants to distinguish itself and stand apart - not simply for the sake of standing apart (in which case you get the decadent hipsters and such specimens recently posted), but in the aspiration of seeking clarity about himself, in the aspiration of self-reliance to define his freedom.

And the most heightened consciousness is born of knowing your past, and the chain that made you possible. - Which is what you confuse for "outdated living in the past", or "going back to stoneage aristocracy"...

This will be news to you that Nietzsche himself said, aristocracy is not just about being blue-eyed and blond-haired - which your best pal Neon advocates and funnily you don't take him to task for it,,, but an aristocracy also of the Spirit. - Know Thyself.


The Plutocratic Elites live to enjoy privileges and are a function of it, whereas the Noble Elite bestow privileges; they determine the highest value beyond pain/pleasure, from their strength and their deeds - the Plutocrats merely try to capitalize on it, parasitism. Privileges are a function of the Noble Elite, and not the other way.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:18 pm

How would a noble elite live?

Is he a drinker or smoker?

Is he a gambler?

Does he own his own business, or work for someone?

Is he a womanizer, or would he stick to one woman?

Can he be a homosexual, or a pedophile?

Would he vote republican, democrat, libertarian... something else?

Does he live in a barn, a house, or in an apartment?

Can he be a bum, on disability/welfare?

Is he an artist, a poet, a philosopher, or an interior decorator?

Is he fat?

Does he eat with his elbows on the table, or talk with a mouth full of food?
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:23 pm

Perhaps the noble elite is more a state of consciousness, than a list of dos and don'ts. In that case, the noble elite could be living virtually any sort of lifestyle, though some lifestyles might follow from it more than others. If so, I think I have an idea of what that sort of consciousness might be like.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:41 pm

Divergense wrote:
How would a noble elite live?

What I said elsewhere applies here;
Spartanize your needs, Romanize your desires.

Quote :
Is he a drinker or smoker?

Is he a gambler?

Does he own his own business, or work for someone?

Is he a womanizer, or would he stick to one woman?

Whatever doesn't impede the heightening of self-clarity and is not an ends in itself is upto how the noble gathers knowledge - by sitting in every nook and corner.


Quote :
Can he be a homosexual, or a pedophile?

A Hedonist cannot be a noble elite.

Quote :
Would he vote republican, democrat, libertarian... something else?

He may vote whatever furthers his ends, without identifying with any of the above.

Satyr wrote a thread called Timocracy, look it up.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:17 pm

Divergense wrote:
How would a noble elite live?

Is he a drinker or smoker?

Is he a gambler?

Does he own his own business, or work for someone?

Is he a womanizer, or would he stick to one woman?

Can he be a homosexual, or a pedophile?

Would he vote republican, democrat, libertarian... something else?

Does he live in a barn, a house, or in an apartment?

Can he be a bum, on disability/welfare?

Is he an artist, a poet, a philosopher, or an interior decorator?

Is he fat?

Does he eat with his elbows on the table, or talk with a mouth full of food?




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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:28 pm

Satyr wrote:
Nobility

Elitism refers to the presence of a excess of the noble principles in a an individual, which would then incline him/her to relate to a group of individuals who are alike.

The type has manifested in different way, throughout history.
The environment determines how this psychological type will express itself in any given time-period within particular socioeconomic circumstances.

As a theatrical example of the type, presented in an exaggerated, and a symbolic (metaphorical) form to pronounce the traits and how they would express themselves in a Modern (urban, western, capitalist - nihilistic) environment we have Harrison's Hannibal.
A perfect caricature, presented in three distinct modes: young man/man/old man.

The female variant has not, as yet and to my knowledge, been adequately represented in art.
At least not as thoroughly as the male variant has.  


Why is it that this cultural, spiritual, and intellectual noble aristocracy you speak of has historically sold itself into what is known as the modern oligarchy or plutocracy?

How did that transformation take place?

What are some specific noble principles?

What does it mean to be noble?
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:31 pm

LaughingMan wrote:

Why is it that this cultural, spiritual, and intellectual noble aristocracy you speak of has historically sold itself into what is known as the modern oligarchy or plutocracy?
It never has.

The oligarchy is made-up of the base.
Those who can only find self-esteem in controlling others.  

Ambition, dear boy.
The base have base ambitions.

Plato's Philosopher King will have to be thrust into power, because he will not want it.

Your Joker wants attention -t o be seen, to make a big bang.

Hannibal seeks anonymity.
He toys with people only to enjoy the game himself.
He wants to not be seen.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:32 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:

Why is it that this cultural, spiritual, and intellectual noble aristocracy you speak of has historically sold itself into what is known as the modern oligarchy or plutocracy?
It never has.

The oligarchy is made-up of the base.
Those who can only find self-esteem in controlling others.  

Ambition, dear boy.
The base have base ambitions.

Plato's Philosopher King will have to be thrust into power, because he will not want it.  


Every so called philosophical king I've seen in history that has been described as that has certainly wanted power.

Are you sure you're not falling for the trap of idealism much the same way as Plato did?


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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:35 pm

LaughingMan wrote:


Every so called philosophical king I've seen that has been described as that has certainly wanted power.

Are you sure you're not falling for the trap of idealism much the same as Plato did?
It's because every man you've ever admired has not been a noble spirit.

Read the edit I made in the previous post.
you are an attention seeker - you can only value what many can appreciate.
That's why Joker is your idol.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:35 pm

On the one hand you say that the noble elites don't want to control people yet on the other hand you make it pretty clear that everybody else are just toys in their devised games which invokes control.

I'm confused here....
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:36 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:


Every so called philosophical king I've seen that has been described as that has certainly wanted power.

Are you sure you're not falling for the trap of idealism much the same as Plato did?
It's because every man you've ever admired has not been a noble spirit.

Read the edit I made in the previous post.
you are an attention seeker - you can only value what many can appreciate.
That's why Joker is your idol.  

I am still waiting for a concise description of nobility from you.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:36 pm

LaughingMan wrote:
On the one hand you say that the noble elites don't want to control people yet on the other hand you make it pretty clear that everybody else are just toys in their devised games which invokes control.

I'm confused here....
If I play or manipulate a dog, do i want to tame it and have it follow me?

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:37 pm

LaughingMan wrote:


I am still waiting for a concise description of nobility from you.

If the text, both mine nor Lyssa's, or the movie character does not help you, then....
Ta, Ta,

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:38 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:
On the one hand you say that the noble elites don't want to control people yet on the other hand you make it pretty clear that everybody else are just toys in their devised games which invokes control.

I'm confused here....
If I play or manipulate a dog, do i want to tame it and have it follow me?

A pet implies domestication.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:39 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:


I am still waiting for a concise description of nobility from you.

If the text, both mine nor Lyssa's, or the movie character does not help you, then....
Ta, Ta,

I'll get to Lyssa's post in a bit.

Movie cinema aside I would really like a in depth definition from you.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Hannibal is so intelligent, so much more aware than the average human being, that he perceives other humans as being, essentially, dogs - or lambs. This is why he has no problem eating other humans. It's like how we go fishing, have no problem gutting the fish open, cooking it up on a frying pan, and then devouring it. We think of fish as dumb, possessing no soul, etc. Hannibal sees most humans like that.

Nobility is possessing integrity, courage, fidelity, honor, and so on.

Samurai are good examples.

I think Satyr's nobility is centered around intellectual and moral-excellence as opposed to economics.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:49 pm

Erik wrote:
Hannibal is so intelligent, so much more aware than the average human being, that he perceives other humans as being, essentially, dogs...lambs. This is why he has no problem eating other humans. It's like how we go fishing, have no problem gutting the fish open, cooking it up on a frying pan, and then devouring it. We think of fish as dumb, possessing no soul, etc. Hannibal sees most humans like that.

Nobility is possessing integrity, courage, fidelity, honor, and so on.

Samurai are good examples.

I think Satyr's nobility is centered around intellectual and moral-excellence as opposed to economics.
yes...and who does he kill?

Those who insult his aesthetics...those who are rude.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:49 pm

Erik wrote:
Hannibal is so intelligent, so much more aware than the average human being, that he perceives other humans as being, essentially, dogs...lambs. This is why he has no problem eating other humans. It's like how we go fishing, have no problem gutting the fish open, cooking it up on a frying pan, and then devouring it. We think of fish as dumb, possessing no soul, etc. Hannibal sees most humans like that.

Nobility is possessing integrity, courage, fidelity, honor, and so on.

Samurai are good examples.

I think Satyr's nobility is centered around intellectual and moral-excellence as opposed to economics.

For me nobility is an illusion and delusional thinking at best.

What I am trying to find out here is how noble elites are at all different from the modern version of an oligarch or plutocrat.

They like to describe themselves as noblemen also.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:51 pm

Satyr wrote:
Erik wrote:
Hannibal is so intelligent, so much more aware than the average human being, that he perceives other humans as being, essentially, dogs...lambs. This is why he has no problem eating other humans. It's like how we go fishing, have no problem gutting the fish open, cooking it up on a frying pan, and then devouring it. We think of fish as dumb, possessing no soul, etc. Hannibal sees most humans like that.

Nobility is possessing integrity, courage, fidelity, honor, and so on.

Samurai are good examples.

I think Satyr's nobility is centered around intellectual and moral-excellence as opposed to economics.
yes...and who does he kill?

Those who insult his aesthetics...those who are rude.

Your garden variety common serial killer does the same.

Does that make them also a noble elite?
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:53 pm

LaughingMan wrote:


Your garden variety common serial killer does the same.

Does that make them also a noble elite?
I don't blame you...you have no clue what you are talking about.
You will not even read the text.
You want special, on-on-one tutoring.



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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:55 pm

LaughingMan wrote:
Divergense wrote:
How would a noble elite live?

Is he a drinker or smoker?

Is he a gambler?

Does he own his own business, or work for someone?

Is he a womanizer, or would he stick to one woman?

Can he be a homosexual, or a pedophile?

Would he vote republican, democrat, libertarian... something else?

Does he live in a barn, a house, or in an apartment?

Can he be a bum, on disability/welfare?

Is he an artist, a poet, a philosopher, or an interior decorator?

Is he fat?

Does he eat with his elbows on the table, or talk with a mouth full of food?




Yeah that's more like what I had in mind when I originally heard the term noble elite, until my KT reeducation, that is.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:55 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:


Your garden variety common serial killer does the same.

Does that make them also a noble elite?
I don't blame you...you have no clue what you are talking about.
You will not even read the text.
You want special, on-on-one tutoring.



Link me the text so I can debunk it in this thread.  Smile 
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:57 pm

Hannibal is more discrete and sophisticated than the average serial-killer. But he is an ironic character, I will admit; there is nothing classy about eating someone's face off raw, or skinning someone's face off and using it as a mask. That's pure savagery. But at the same time, you will see him acting sophisticated and classy when he is not killing. You wouldn't expect him to be a brutal killer if you just saw him sipping on wine and reading some classical literature.

Not sure if I would consider him a noble spirit....
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:01 pm

Erik wrote:
Hannibal is more discrete and sophisticated than the average serial-killer.
But he is an ironic character, I will admit; there is nothing classy about eating someone's face off raw, or skinning someone's face off and using it as a mask. That's pure savagery. But at the same time, you will see him acting sophisticated and classy when he is not killing.
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The killing and eating is a metaphor.

He does not kill out of passion ad indiscriminately...and he does not kill all.
He actually finds some who he thinks have potential and attempts to mentor them...to teach them, to cultivate them - to free them from their domestication.

He does not want to change the world because the world is perfect as it is.
He simply shifts his sense of self.
He has a refined sense of identity.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:14 pm

We've concluded thus far that noble elites like toying, domesticating, and controlling people.

Like Hannibal if a composer plays a musical piece incorrectly they'll be snuffed out by these noble elites who very much like their aesthetics.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:18 pm

LaughingMan wrote:
We've concluded thus far that noble elites like toying, domesticating, and controlling people.

Like Hannibal if a composer plays a musical piece incorrectly they'll be snuffed out by these noble elites who very much like their aesthetics.
You know...despite wanting humanity to go extinct, you truly are a humanitarian...

Such a softy.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:20 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:
We've concluded thus far that noble elites like toying, domesticating, and controlling people.

Like Hannibal if a composer plays a musical piece incorrectly they'll be snuffed out by these noble elites who very much like their aesthetics.
You know...despite wanting humanity to go extinct, you truly are a humanitarian...

Such a softy.

Interesting comment. Do you mind explaining it?
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:23 pm

LaughingMan wrote:


Interesting comment.  Do you mind explaining it?
I find it interesting that the "Joker" who pretends to be tough and dreaming of Armageddon, will associate, so lovingly, with the poor victims of Hannibal's tastes.

You are more a wannabe Batman, than Joker.

Your laughter is pretend.
You use it to draw eyes upon you.

Like the exaggerated paint on the face.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:30 pm

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:


Interesting comment.  Do you mind explaining it?
I find it interesting that the "Joker" who pretends to be tough and dreaming of Armageddon, will associate, so lovingly, with the poor victims of Hannibal's tastes.

You are more a wannabe Batman, than Joker.

Your laughter is pretend.
You use it to draw eyes upon you.

Like the exaggerated paint on the face.

Au contraire, Satyr.

I'm not empathizing with anybody.

I'm just trying to point out there is nothing special or different between your noble elites versus everybody else.

Your noble elites are just another group of savages.

Nobility being a concept of the delusional.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:32 pm

I want to start by saying, I love the new avatar, Lyssa.

Divergense wrote:
How would a noble elite live?
Lyssa wrote:
What I said elsewhere applies here;
Spartanize your needs, Romanize your desires.
But aren't needs inherently Spartan, and desires inherently Roman?

Are you saying an NE always takes care of his needs, prioritizes his needs, and rarely satiates his desires, but that when he does, he makes a big fuss about them, preferring the elaborate and the ornate, to the base and simplistic? For example, the NE would rarely indulge in wine, since it's not a need, but when he, or she does, only the finest, will do? They'll drink wine or a beer on occasion, but only a Heineken or a Becks will do, because it's closer to nature, relatively healthier, and richer in aroma and taste?

Divergense wrote:
Is he a drinker or smoker?

Is he a gambler?

Does he own his own business, or work for someone?

Is he a womanizer, or would he stick to one woman?
Lyssa wrote:
Whatever doesn't impede the heightening of self-clarity and is not an ends in itself is upto how the noble gathers knowledge - by sitting in every nook and corner.
Are you saying the NE can't have ends in and of themselves, or that he can, just that he prioritizes awareness, knowledge, survival and gene replication over and above all other ends? If an NE goes out for dinner and a movie, does he do so for the sake of enjoyment, or for the experience, to gain more insight into himself and human activities? Perhaps both?

Divergense wrote:
Can he be a homosexual, or a pedophile?

Lyssa wrote:
A Hedonist cannot be a noble elite.
But are homosexuality and pedophilia necessarily more hedonistic?

Perhaps they are in and of themselves, but let's add a little context here.

Let's compare one man's eros to that of another's.

Let's say there's a man who's involved with another man.

Let's say this homosexual is more/less asexual, has little desire for sex with man or woman.

His primary attraction to this man, is not sexual, but social, romantic and emotional.

Additionally, he has a son from a previous marriage that didn't work out so well, whom he wants to raise together with this man.

Now I'm not saying such an arrangement is an idealic one to raise a child in, that's not the point.

Let's compare him with another specimen.

Let's say there's this guy, and all he wants to do is have some fun, go out and fuck every slut and whore he sees, with a condom, so he doesn't have to deal with the "consequences", as he regards them, of his actions.

Who is more hedonistic, the former, or the latter?

Is a homosexual, or a pedophile (think pedophilia as institutionalized in ancient Greece) necessarily more hedonistic than a heterosexual?

Additionally, if the NE is not a hedonist, then what is he?

What does he reduce the good to?

Is it the opposite then, asceticism, or something else?

The survival of the self, the tribe, the species?

Are there a multiplicity, a plurality and a hierarchy of goods, or only one?

Divergense wrote:
Would he vote republican, democrat, libertarian... something else?

Lyssa wrote:
He may vote whatever furthers his ends, without identifying with any of the above.
Here, you make it sound like his ends don't matter.

What if his ends are to rob the rich and give to the poor, because he's poor, would that be an example of NE, or it's opposite? What if it were the opposite, to rob the poor/middle class and give to the rich, because he's rich, would that be an example of NE? Your description, though brief, makes him sound like a rather common, self interested opportunist.

Allow me to rephrase the question, put it to you differently, which party, of those three mentioned, in contemporary American politics, do you think is closest to NE ideals, if any? If you don't want to discuss American politics, then we can discuss Canadian, British or Indian if you prefer.

Lyssa wrote:
Satyr wrote a thread called Timocracy, look it up.
I think I read it a while ago, sounds interesting, though personally, I wouldn't wish for a government that deprived me of my right to vote, seeing as how I don't possess any acres of land or cattle, although I may have a little land in Italy, not sure.


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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:33 pm

LaughingMan wrote:


Au contraire, Satyr.

I'm not empathizing with anybody.

I'm just trying to point out there is nothing special or different between your noble elites versus everybody else.

Your noble elites are just another group of savages.

Nobility being a concept of the delusional.
A Communist and humanitarian to the end.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:11 pm

It sounds like temperance is the NE's greatest virtue, as opposed to hedonism, materialism, and the like. The Golden mean. People are judged according to how temperate they are, rather than how rich and famous they are. Nothing in excess, or everything in moderation. Being ethically temperate could be likened to physical and mental symmetry. I'm not in the habit of striving these days, and in any case, striving can certainly be excessive in and of itself, or deficient for that matter, perhaps, but when I do, I try to strive for balance. I think anything can be overdone, even awareness, no? There's a time for sleep, and rest too, and such a thing as being too discriminatory, in our physical, and social tastes. Humans have a problem with being temperate, I always believed, even in cosmology, we went from one extreme, spiritualism/theism, to another extreme, materialism/atheism, ignoring the middle ground, in between the subject and the object, and in between God and man.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:02 am

Satyr wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:


Au contraire, Satyr.

I'm not empathizing with anybody.

I'm just trying to point out there is nothing special or different between your noble elites versus everybody else.

Your noble elites are just another group of savages.

Nobility being a concept of the delusional.
A Communist and humanitarian to the end.

 Laughing 

I am neither. Now it appears you're trying to defame me.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:58 am

Noble Elitism:


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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:03 am

Interesting.  So, we can conclude with the video above that a noble elite is no different from a group of modern day oligarchic or plutocratic assholes that like kicking people while they're down.

Let them eat cake....smashed.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:11 am

Still waiting for a definition of nobility from Satyr and instead I get called a communist or humanitarian for my trouble of asking.  So very silly.......
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:14 am

We'll I could think of additional connections, just mabey, I don't know. Where is my mind?
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:16 am

There Will Be Blood wrote:
We'll I could think of additional connections, just mabey, I don't know. Where is my mind?

Please let me know when they do come to your mind.
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