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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 7:26 am

Divergense wrote:

Yeah, I think I get you, sort of.

I think you have a rather negative idea of life.
No, that's a positive conception of life.

Divergense wrote:
Activity isn't merely a response to death, but also, a response to opportunities to give birth, and grow.
(Inter)Activity is existence.
Willful (inter)activity is life.

Divergense wrote:
Life isn't just a preservation of what is, but a propagation of what is, so just because you're safe, secure and sound, doesn't mean there's nothing to do, necessarily, you can still give birth and grow, upward, biologically and culturally. However, there's limits, resources are being depleted, which is why sustainability is critical.
No, life BEGINS by self-preservation. Otherwise it has no choice at all.
It self-maintains its ordering within the Flux and THEN directs itself, using whatever excess energies it has towards growth, reproduction, in less sophisticated life-forms, or to creativity, art, in higher ones.

No self-preservation no Will to anything.
Self-preservation is the correction of what temporal attrition, the Flux, has done upon the organism...as it is (inter)acting constantly.
This attrition, this friction which is what (inter)activity is, the organism interprets as need.
If not dealt with, because of absence of required energies, or some other reason, it grows, the damage done increases, now being felt as suffering, then pain.
Stress is the friction of Flux upon the organism - the sensation of (inter)activity.

Pleasure is the alleviation of this sensation.
The libidinal kind of pleasure, related to growth, but then evolved it procreation, is the result of accumulated energies, due to the organisms struggle to appropriate as much of it so as to sustain itself, now stressing the organism to be released.
The accumulated energies indicate virility, health, because otherwise they would never reach that level.
A sickly, weak, organism would have trouble enough correcting the effects of attrition upon it, let alone posses an excess of energies.

What you have to do is define positive/negative.
I've already done so, but define it on your own, if you must.
Then you must ask yourself:
Is the world, as I've experienced it, benevolent towards life?
Is the universe a friendly, towards order, environment?

If you do not believe in entropy, or in gravity...or whatever, ask yourself this: is change a positive aspect of an organism's existence, or is it a stresser, which forces it to adapt, and to create and grow or die?
You might enjoy change because it alters circumstances you do not like, and it gives you hope, and because you live in a controlled environment where no change is ever excessive, or allowed to be negative, but think of change in your body, which you have no say over....is it positive? Does it not indicate aging?

Is life ubiquitous, or is lifelessness so?
What is easiest to experience, requiring no effort: suffering or pleasure?
Even if you do not value or intend suffering, and strive towards pleasure, what is the final outcome?
Eternal bliss?
A universal orgasmic ecstasy?

Let's say you make pleasure your end...is this your end, an organic end, or some universal end, some truth?

How the mind projects the absent absolute, is of a secondary importance.
I've written about how the mind projects an object/objective, as an orienting point in space/time.
This object/objective can be anything.
For some it is god, for others it is pleasure, or power.
What concept you apply to the absence, to make your life meaningful, to give yourself a purpose, indicated your psychology.
That this ideal is absent, a negative point of view, is what permits you this positive projection.

The form the projected absent absolute takes in you, is your construct, your end...and it is determined by your particular organ hierarchies, your nature.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 7:54 am

Had company over last night.

Will respond to posts later tonight.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 12:30 pm

I'm with Diver.

Existence is not necessarily negative or positive, since these are value judgments reflecting the subjectivity of the human predisposition.

Furthermore, regarding physics and the faithful belief that the universe is expanding rather than contradicting, is also bogus.

There is no reason to assert growth before/after decay (entropy).

Satyr is wrong. The universe is not inclined for, nor against, humanity or life. Because life is integral within the universe. Life is inside the universe, and therefore must also count as the universe.

No unnecessary dualisms....
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 9:16 pm

Divergense wrote:

Quote :
Of course it matters which of the many Lectors we are dealing with, but in the books he is the product of trauma, not even choosing his cannibalism but having it thrust upon him.

My thoughts as well.  

Shall we stick to the facts, as revealed by the author and acknowledge "Hannibal" for who he really was, not romanticized by Anthony on the silver screen.

Quote :
Revealed: The Mexican doctor who chopped up his gay lover and was the inspiration for fictional cannibal Hannibal Lecter.


Thomas Harris reveals real-life doctor was inspiration for Hannibal Lecter
He met 'Dr Salazar' in Mexican prison while working as a journalist
He has now been revealed as a gay doctor called Alfredo Balli Trevino
Was told by warden the doctor was 'insane' and would 'never leave'
The surgeon spent 20 years in the Nuevo Leon State Prison, in Mexico

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER and SAM WEBB

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 9:43 pm

The whole metaphor is lost in anxious convulsions.

We consume one another daily, each calling the act by a different name.

The author draws inspiration from reality, as all artists do, and then shapes it to create an allegory - expressing his ideals through it.

The character, in question, is born with heightened senses; six fingers on one hand, and the confidence of a demi-god.
Perhaps you people should revisit your own traumatic experiences.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 9:52 pm

Hannibal wrote:
Quote :

Perhaps you people should revisit your own traumatic experiences.

So, this is the attraction.  You relate your "traumatic experiences" with Hannibal and this justifies your thoughts and behavior.

Wow, tell us do, what happened to YOU.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 9:57 pm

You appear to have difficulty reading.
I can only explain it as a product of some past event, that disturbed you.

It's interesting how Harrison had to write the third part last, to explain Hannibal to an audience that had to integrate him into something comprehensible.
Did they not explain all those shopkeepers, and dentists and farmers participating in the Nazi camps as being momentarily insane?

Nothing happened to me, dear.
I happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 10:19 pm


Hannibal
wrote:
Quote :


You appear to have difficulty reading.

I have no difficulty in reading......

but you obviously do.  The author's name is Harris.


Last edited by reasonvemotion on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 10:20 pm

True.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 12, 2014 2:19 am

Æon wrote:
I'm with Diver.

Existence is not necessarily negative or positive, since these are value judgments reflecting the subjectivity of the human predisposition.

Furthermore, regarding physics and the faithful belief that the universe is expanding rather than contradicting, is also bogus.

There is no reason to assert growth before/after decay (entropy).

Satyr is wrong.  The universe is not inclined for, nor against, humanity or life.  Because life is integral within the universe.  Life is inside the universe, and therefore must also count as the universe.

No unnecessary dualisms....
Exactly, the cosmos isn't antilife, or order, it's indifferent.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 12, 2014 8:47 am

The cosmos is dynamic.
In relation to an organism, to life, it is a challenge to it.

The world IS indifferent...but the organism is not.
The organism is in a constant state of care.

What's the opposite of caring?

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 12, 2014 11:43 am

Satyr wrote:
(Inter)Activity is existence.
Willful (inter)activity is life.
I could just as easily say power is existence, or sphere is existence. Everything has a modicum of power, everything is like a sphere. Show me one thing that doesn't have any power, or isn't anything like a sphere. The truth of the matter is - there is some nothing out there, and no something out there. Language/the mind unnecessarily carves up reality into bits and pieces for reference, and some languages/minds do this more consistently and frequently than others (genius), and some languages/minds are more interested in certain phenomena, according to their curiosity/priorities. There's nothing man can say about the cosmos in and of itself. Whatever he says about it, is just as much a projection as it is a reflection. Whatever you say about the cosmos, says as much or more about you, than it does about it.

Quote :
No, life BEGINS by self-preservation. Otherwise it has no choice at all. It self-maintains its ordering within the Flux and THEN directs itself, using whatever excess energies it has towards growth, reproduction, in less sophisticated life-forms, or to creativity, art, in higher ones.
Life didn't Begin, with a capital B, anymore than it will End, with a capital E. Every preservation was preceded by a propagation, every propagation was preceded by a preservation. Had your parents never procreated, you wouldn't've been given an opportunity to preserve yourself.

Quote :
This attrition, this friction which is what (inter)activity is, the organism interprets as need.
Opportunities to grow, is what the organism interprets as desire or want. Satiating desire is what the organism interprets as pleasure. Unfulfilled desires is what the organism interprets as pain.

Quote :
Is the world, as I've experienced it, benevolent towards life?
Is the universe a friendly, towards order, environment?
Sometimes it's benevolent, sometimes it's malevolent. If organisms do too little, they perish, if organisms do too much, likewise, they perish. Saying the universe is fundamentally hostile, because if the organism does nothing, it perishes, might be saying too much. You could say, the fact that we can exist at all, means the universe is fundamentally unconsciously benevolent towards life.

Quote :
If you do not believe in entropy, or in gravity...or whatev
Gravity is a contradiction of entropy. Gravity brings together what friction separates. Astronomers, if they can be trusted, admit there's more gravity in the universe than the "big bang" or spontaneous materialization theory (ex nihilo), originally proposed by a catholic priest, can accommodate. Rather than give up their precious theory, which is largely unempirical, as far as I'm concerned, they've concocted an entirely unempirical theory, dark matter/more gravity, to explain away the empirical data which suggests, things aren't measurably dispersing anymore than they're clumping together. Gravity also organizes matter, dense energies tend to congregate in the interior of worlds, and sparse energies tend to congregate in the exterior.

A snowflake is generated from less organized energies.

Water structures itself, it's not the equilibrium you think it is, where molecules are scattered, or uniformly distributed, it organizes itself, almost as if it's an ORGANism (ORGANization), into very, relatively speaking, elaborate structures on its own without the aid of human intervention, in fact, human intervening tends to disrupt and disturb water structures, with our plumbing and such. Yet water, after it's been discombobulated, spontaneously reorganizes itself when reintroduced to natural environments. So it seems activity can and does produce order after all, the world and everything in it is far more sophisticated than it seems, and there's fractal orders everywhere. The cosmos connects and disconnects energies, orders and disorders them. Which of these polarities is the dominant force in the cosmos, assuming either one of them is dominant at all? They might be perfectly even, it's contentious.

Although I think it's unlikely life came from nonlife, if that's what you believe, that nonlife could give rise to life, isn't that a contradiction of entropy?

Quote :
ask yourself this: is change a positive aspect of an organism's existence, or is it a stresser, which forces it to adapt, and to create and grow or die?
You might enjoy change because it alters circumstances you do not like, and it gives you hope, and because you live in a controlled environment where no change is ever excessive, or allowed to be negative, but think of change in your body, which you have no say over....is it positive? Does it not indicate aging?
Change also animates us, we passively respond to change, like when a fridge falls on your head, and we actively respond to change, like when you avoid a fridge falling on your head. Isn't animation a part of life? Could a frozen state of existence, be called life?

Quote :
Is life ubiquitous, or is lifelessness so?
What is easiest to experience, requiring no effort: suffering or pleasure?
Even if you do not value or intend suffering, and strive towards pleasure, what is the final outcome?
Eternal bliss?
A universal orgasmic ecstasy?
I get what you're saying, and it's a good point, but consider this, is it easier to not exert oneself, than to exert oneself? Sure, if we don't exert ourselves at all, we perish, but if we overexert ourselves, we also perish. I know what you're saying, but let's consider my challenge for a moment.

Quote :
How the mind projects the absent absolute, is of a secondary importance.
I've written about how the mind projects an object/objective, as an orienting point in space/time.
This object/objective can be anything.
For some it is god, for others it is pleasure, or power.
What concept you apply to the absence, to make your life meaningful, to give yourself a purpose, indicated your psychology.
That this ideal is absent, a negative point of view, is what permits you this positive projection.

The form the projected absent absolute takes in you, is your construct, your end...and it is determined by your particular organ hierarchies, your nature.
Hmmm.

What do you put there?

One could put many things there, or one thing there, or nothing there.

Survival, the preservation and propagation of our organism is certainly one, a good one. Whatever we do, that doesn't offer us a survival advantage in some way, may not be around for very long to express itself. Myself, I put many things there, a hierarchy of things, but of course, some of them may have more of a future than others, and that's something to consider. Consider this also, if the only way to preserve the majority of yourself, was to become something contrary to yourself, like say a retard, or a slave, would you? Are there some sacrifices not worth making, for the sake of sustaining your bloodline?

Organisms survive, such makes up the majority of what we do, by definition, or we wouldn't be here, but it's not an absolute, and could never be an absolute. There's a lot of things we do and don't do, that're detrimental to survival. Some organisms might fear pain more than death, others might fear death more than pain, and for others, it may vary. Does always consciously fearing death offer us a survival advantage? A rat doesn't know what it's doing, it just does it, and happens to survive. Conscious apprehension and fear of death is unnecessary for its flourishing. With humans, it's different, we need to consciously think about death sometimes, but all the time? A lot of the time, we can just think about this pleasure or that, or this objective or that - wealth, power, fame, knowledge, love, whatever, and end up surviving along the way. Would thinking, does this offer me more of a survival advantage than anything else I could possibly be doing right now, actually offer us a survival advantage, and even if it did, is that the sort of life we'd want to live?

We could always survive better.

If an omniscient, or even just a superior intelligence were able to construct an organism, with the maximization of survivability in mind, it may look nothing like us, indeed it may not look very much like any other organism presently residing on planet earth, it may not even have genes, genes may be a terribly inefficient means of replication, there might be better ways, ways we can't imagine. So much of what we are has nothing or little to do with natural selection, I mean just the fact that we have genes, and cells are structured a certain way, this as opposed to that, limits us, defines us. Some organisms may've gotten lucky, sort of speak, like one subspecies may end up surviving, and another may end up dying off, just because it happened to be in the righ place, at the right time, and not because it was superior. Natural selection is meaningful, but gene mutations aren't, and they too limit us.. define us.


Last edited by Divergense on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 12, 2014 11:57 am

To have a choice, to grow, you must first maintain self.
To have a choice, you must exclude, discriminate, push away...build walls (skin).
To grow, to create, to procreate you must first gather energies, because you lack them.
To appreciate sameness you must first be other than.
To experience pleasure/pain, you must first need.

Existence is (inter)active.
Life is this (inter)action given direction...a towards.

Existence does not begin and end, life emerges within existence, and it most certainly begins and ends.
Birth = beginning of willfulness, life.
Death = end of wilfulness, life.

Nothing else you said applies...but you can continue believing what you wish.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] are only arbitrary terms, easily reversible, when they are detached from phenomena...and remain symbols, toys, in the hands of children hoping to remain child-like.

When words are detached from their original role as symbols referring to abstractions built on interpretations of sensual data, and become symbols referring to abstractions and nowhere else, then they become tools of Nihilistic escape.

The concepts 1/0 and justice and equality have no reference anywhere other than back to human abstractions, based on human needs.
They are useful in relation to these human needs.
That these tools fail to completely satisfy human needs, only exposes their imperfections as products of an imperfect mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 13, 2014 12:35 am

Divergense wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:
Divergense wrote:
LaughingMan wrote:
Diver, I'm all about the anti thesis of authority.

I believe everybody should have total independence in their lives for better or for worse.

Unlike people who idolize aristocracies I have no desire to assert myself over large groups of people or individuals. I don't believe anybody should have that kind of power over others and those that do should be overthrowed.

Also, my philosophy is all about the supremacy of nature over humanity.

I seek to destroy artifice bringing the return of nature's supremacy.

Authority= Artifice              Chaos=The original balance of nature.

Behind all that destruction of my philosophy there is a primary initiative at play.
I think we just gotta make do, with whatever is, that's my take.

Play the hand we're dealt.

Play the hand we're dealt?

I find that intolerable.
I don't think playing the hand we're dealt and conforming are necessarily the same things, Joker.

I misunderstood you then.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 13, 2014 1:01 am

Satyr wrote:
LaughingStock wrote:
Differences Between Me And Satyr.
Nice watching you identify yourself in relation to moi.

LaughingStock wrote:
He wants to create new values and minimize nihilism by taming it.
No.
My values are old and forgotten. I want to preserve them through this Dark Age.

LaughingStock wrote:
He wants to domesticate nihilism.
Um, o, reatard, nihilism IS a method of domestication, I want to free those who can from it - at least spiritually/intellectually.
I am an nihilist of nihilism.
I affirm existence.

LaughingStock wrote:
I on the other hand revel in nihilism where I am perfectly content with it.
No, you are a nihilist proper.
You simply want to die, but your ego is such that you don't want to leave anyone behind to enjoy living.

LaughingStock wrote:
I want to unleash nihilism on the rest of the world.
You see the hypocrisy of "positive" nihilism as it is used in modern times to control the masses and to make them feel good about who they are - you are a pure nihilist.
Your self-hatred is honest.
You want to destroy it all; they, want to destroy nature/past, and dream of a world where it is all erased: brainwashing.  

But, now you are beginning to sound more like them. You might be a disillusioned member of the herd.
You only want to erase
(nullify) more than they do.

LaughingStock wrote:
While he is disgusted with modernity he is content existing within it feeding on those that exist within its confines.  I on the other hand view modernity as a mockery of nature and existence where if it was up to me I would destroy it all.  I am not content existing or living within its confines.
You associate yourself with the term "human", and I've re-evaluated it.
I've defined it.
Modernity wants to erase the past/nature, to forget it (partial amnesia), I want to preserve it, recall it.
Modernity does this by turning everything into a noetic construct, an idea, a memetic code. I  accept this method, because I know memes come from genes - what the moderns what to denounce as non-applicable to create their ideal world.
By accepting their methods I show how hypocritical it is.
Moderns want to dismiss genes from the foundation of meme; I want to reaffirm them.

LaughingStock wrote:
Satyr believes in the concept of noble elitism as a sort of perception that there are a group of chosen individuals out there to lead a collective social hierarchy or pyramid.
No, retard...nobody is "chosen" but selected, naturally.
Minds are born with a potential that may, or may not reach its fullest potential. I want to find those with that potential and cultivate free it from its modern confines.
Every group has a hierarchy.
Look at how desperately you tried to create a group with yourself on the top.

But this group is OUTSIDE the hierarchies you want to level down, because you are still stuck in their constructs.
Our hierarchies have little to do with those you despise...and so we do not identify or judge ourselves according to them.
You still do.
It's why you remain angry, dreaming of destruction.
And look at how you tool "elite" to mean what you've been brainwashed into thinking of elite as: wealth, political power, privilege, luxury, money, and so on.
You cannot free your self-esteem from their value standards and so you can only hope to destroy them, to escape their standards - you become resentful.
We don't because we are ALREADY outside their standards.
We study them because we are forced to live amongst them, and to survive using their standards, without being absorbed by them.
Get it, you imbecile?!

It's why when they call me uncivil, vulgar, base, primitive, i am not touched. their value judgments relate to their adopted, trained into them, and comforting, value standards.
In fact, the more "negatively" they think of me, the more I am sure I am on the right path, particularly when they have NOTHING to offer to contradict my positions except declarative statements, victory dances, sexual innuendos, girly gossip talk, and half-asses psychological assessments.

LaughingStock wrote:
I believe the entire social hierarchy or pyramid to be a complete absurd joke which is something else I wish to destroy.  Just another mockery of nature.
And yet, all around you, in nature, there are hierarchies.
Amongst social species these are SOCIAL hierarchies.

Different value standards means different hierarchies.
A tribe within a tribe, or a human tribe within a sea of Zombies and Vampires - the living dead.  

LaughingStock wrote:
Satyr is content with blending in with institutional authority in order to facilitate his own desires and to also assert his will. I on the other hand am anti authority where I refuse to blend in within its confines.
No, retard.
No matter how weak a cow is, in large numbers they are a threat to the wolf; no matter how strong a lion is, when confronted with a herd of angry water buffalo, it runs.
Quantities drown qualities.

I cannot escape the world as I found it, but instead of becoming suicidal, in that hypocritical way of yours, I realize it's a matter of time.
No frontiers, no way out. One must change his perspective.
The jungle is replaced by urban environments; the herds change by appearing all human, but displaying their differences memetically.
The human species dominates earth, but it is not uniform - it is striving to become uniform.  
In the process it is creating friction, fragmentation.
Moderns have spiritualized identifiers, like "human", by selectively accepting parts of it and rejecting others: like male/female, or races.  They've de-sexualized the identity "human" and then eroticized it, romanticized it.
Hyper-masculinity is an indication of its disappearance.

Baudrillard, Jean wrote:
At the heart of pornography is sexuality haunted by its own disappearance.
We live in a hyper-sexualized "culture" because sexuality is disappearing.
We live in a hyper-individualized culture because individuality is becoming uniform.

I accept their premises, but do not reject the genetic factor nor the sexual component - I hold onto the erotic/thymotic elements together.
I then fragment their idealized idetifiers by returning them to their genetic foundations.
I de-romanticize their romanticism.
By doing so I expose the fear and pretenses they can only see in others.
Within their world of uniforming ideals, that are supposed to blind us all to appearances, to the phenomenon, I discover an underlying world populated by all kinds of memetically defined creatures.

I am now in a different kind of environment; one seemingly uniform but not really.
Herbivores/Carnivores/Omnivores replaced by psychological types - hunter/prey now conducted using words. 

I blend into their hypocritical, pretentiousness, like Hannibal did.
I do not buy into their lies, I manipulate them for my own ends.
I do not relate to their bullshit, I pretend to.
They believe in their own crap, I know when I am lying and when I am not.

Quote :
Nice watching you identify yourself in relation to moi.

I only differentiate because some ignorant people in the past have accused me of having the same philosophy and outlook as you do.

That's obviously not the case....

I'm simply making a public record.


Quote :
No.
My values are old and forgotten. I want to preserve them through this Dark Age.

Like a Benedictine monk trying to survive the new global dark ages.

Forgotten values?  I'm curious.  Indulge me.

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Quote :
Um, o, reatard, nihilism IS a method of domestication, I want to free those who can from it - at least spiritually/intellectually.
I am an nihilist of nihilism.
I affirm existence.

You have it backwards.  The belief in progress or progressivism is the method of domestication.  If anything nihilism is the liberation from domestication and modernity.

Quote :
I am an nihilist of nihilism.

Sometimes when I see you use the word nihilism I think you confuse it with something else.


Quote :
I affirm existence.

Oh?  What kind of existence are you shooting or wishing for?

Quote :
No, you are a nihilist proper.

Yes, I am a nihilist but I don't describe nihilism the way you do.  That's for sure.

I'm a nihilist amongst other things...


Quote :
You simply want to die, but your ego is such that you don't want to leave anyone behind to enjoy living.

Not even close.  I want to live and enjoy all the pleasures that the world has to offer.

More than anything I want to have total independence and seek out the ultimate form of self fulfilling liberation that this world has to offer.

Want to die?  Nope.

In fact I'm right where I want to be currently on the edge of what will be the absolute destruction and collapse of western civilization as we know it.

I wouldn't miss it for the world.

This is a once in a lifetime event.

Quote :
You see the hypocrisy of "positive" nihilism as it is used in modern times to control the masses and to make them feel good about who they are - you are a pure nihilist.
Your self-hatred is honest.
You want to destroy it all; they, want to destroy nature/past, and dream of a world where it is all erased: brainwashing.
 

But, now you are beginning to sound more like them. You might be a disillusioned member of the herd.
You only want to erase
(nullify) more than they do.


Not only do I want it all destroyed but as you so eloquently put it in another thread I want the world return back to the jungle or wilderness.

For me when humanity lived in the wilderness or the jungle as you called it we as a species were the more freer and independent. Under the subordination of nature we existed as the natural environment intended us to.  Only until humanity initiated all kinds of artifices with the agricultural revolution have we been slowly progressing to this now present nightmarish thing we call modernity.

You see Satyr, the only way we can escape or at the very least free ourselves from this monstrosity of modernity is if we obliterate it all.  Luckily for us the very individuals that control modernity all over the world are already busily destroying it themselves.

Herd?  Laughing 

Definitely not.

Unlike you however I don't differentiate between commoner or aristocrat from the herd.

Both parties are of the herd in my world view where I have no problem feasting upon aristocratic sheople.

Aristocratic sheople are the best kind to feast upon. They're all the more delicious.

They taste very sweet like a fine wine.

I love watching an arrogant self absorbed aristocrat fall to their knees when they are dethroned. I like watching their bewildered faces when they find out that they're not as invincible that they previously thought of themselves as.


Quote :
You associate yourself with the term "human", and I've re-evaluated it.

What are you?  More human than human?

I only use the word as way of conveying.

Quote :
I've defined it.
Modernity wants to erase the past/nature, to forget it (partial amnesia), I want to preserve it, recall it.

I want to return to our past.  Our very ancient past to be more precise where we were primal instinctual animals.

Where primal instinct was the general principle of the land.

I'll settle for an agrarian time period however.

Quote :
No, retard...nobody is "chosen" but selected, naturally.
Minds are born with a potential that may, or may not reach its fullest potential. I want to find those with that potential and cultivate free it from its modern confines.
Every group has a hierarchy.
Look at how desperately you tried to create a group with yourself on the top.

Don't you find it interesting that the very ancient aristocrats you idolize either destroyed themselves or joined forces that overtime have brought about modernity?

Quote :
But this group is OUTSIDE the hierarchies you want to level down, because you are still stuck in their constructs.

If you pay taxes and live off of their system you're very much stuck in their constructs also.


Quote :
Our hierarchies have little to do with those you despise...and so we do not identify or judge ourselves according to them.
You still do.

You seek to create a counter culture then?  Is that it?

It won't work.  They have total control over everybody especially in terms of economics.

There is no creating an alternative within their system.

They won't let you exist outside of their system either.

No counter culture will prevail here.

Destroying the entire system is the only option.

Quote :
It's why you remain angry, dreaming of destruction.
And look at how you tool "elite" to mean what you've been brainwashed into thinking of elite as: wealth, political power, privilege, luxury, money, and so on.
You cannot free your self-esteem from their value standards and so you can only hope to destroy them, to escape their standards - you become resentful.

The ancient aristocrats that you so very much idolize didn't center their entire lives on those things?


Quote :
We don't because we are ALREADY outside their standards.
We study them because we are forced to live amongst them, and to survive using their standards, without being absorbed by them.
Get it, you imbecile?!

I get it alright.  Smile 

With the total chaos and anarchy that is coming globally I hope your counter culture group will be able to take up activities beyond crocheting, sharing brownie recipes, or discussing collectible stamps.

Quote :
And yet, all around you, in nature, there are hierarchies.
Amongst social species these are SOCIAL hierarchies.

Human hierarchy is one of total slavery, control, and dominion.

Other animal species don't even come close to this in relation to human beings.

There is something diabolically unique about human social hierarchy compared to all others.

I have no problem with hierarchy if it was reciprocal.  Presently it very much is not.

Still, I'll settle for the part of organized crime all the same.


Quote :
No, retard.
No matter how weak a cow is, in large numbers they are a threat to the wolf; no matter how strong a lion is, when confronted with a herd of angry water buffalo, it runs.
Quantities drown qualities.

A clever wolf learns stealth and how to be invisible.

Quote :
I cannot escape the world as I found it, but instead of becoming suicidal, in that hypocritical way of yours, I realize it's a matter of time.
No frontiers, no way out.


The way out is complete destruction.



Quote :
One must change his perspective.
The jungle is replaced by urban environments; the herds change by appearing all human, but displaying their differences memetically.
The human species dominates earth, but it is not uniform - it is striving to become uniform.
In the process it is creating friction, fragmentation.
Moderns have spiritualized identifiers, like "human", by selectively accepting parts of it and rejecting others: like male/female, or races. They've de-sexualized the identity "human" and then eroticized it, romanticized it.
Hyper-masculinity is an indication of its disappearance.

For a new environment to come about you have to set fire to current one.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 5:07 am

You know Satyr, when this chaos and anarchy really kicks off in the world that you hear me always talking about I have every intention of creating my own organization or syndicate.

Although we won't be so noble whatsoever.

You didn't think I would be enjoying all that chaos and anarchy by myself, did you?

As much as I'd like to do things all on my own it is always nice having a bunch of spare hands helping you out.

Of course all new applicants within my organization will have to go through some intensive and rigorous screening.  I would only accept quality sociopaths, psychopaths, deviants, criminals, social outcasts, and general insane people within my organization.

I wonder what your group or counter culture of people will be doing when the new global dark ages commence.

Will your group even know how to fight or survive in the new global dark ages?

Curious people would like to know.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 7:44 am

A deranged mind always lives in its fantasies.
In there to be deranged gives you a leg-up in the survival game.
Such a mind confuses pretenses for essences.
It first buys into the pretenses of "fear based" control, and the scenarios is builds.
In its simple mind a "Dark Age" is imagined as a Mad Max world of complete social and cultural destruction.
Then it buys into the delusion that there is such a thing as "normal", other than as a social standard necessitating the social act.

Once it has bought into both pretenses it fabricates its own to explain why it is incapable of getting a "leg -up" in this scenario, which is also the reason it is convinced it will have an advantage in the other.
In this alternative world its own sensitivity, and gullibility, is buried in a hard, exterior, and the world hardness is buried in a gullible, sensitive pretense.

This is when it underestimates other and overestimates self not even realizing that the same factors contributing to its state in this scenario would hold true in every other scenario based no a reality based hypothesis.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 11:18 am

Satyr can't be an aristocrat in this present world and so he imagines himself an old aristocrat of a by gone era that he vows to resurrect.

Two can play that game old goat.

Always remember that thought precedes action.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 12:41 pm

Some that don't get along so well in certain environments, may get along better in others, just like chimpanzees do well in African jungles, but wouldn't do so well in African deserts or savannahs. The same could be applied to individuals. Joker's antiauthoritarianism, charisma and recklessness may not work so well here, I mean well enough to survive, but not thrive. Perhaps his unstable personality would thrive in more unstable environments. A domesticated dog may do well inside the home, or on the farm, but what if its master were to suddenly be decapitated, would it be able think and fend for itself? Conversely, a wolf, or a wolf dog may not do so well in the home or on the farm, but survive and thrive if unleashed into the wild. Different dogs have different intelligences, some dogs are good at memorizing commands and following them on cue, but lack problem solving capabilities and resourcefulness. However, if the end of the world as we know it is nigh, and civilization is about to collapse, preparing for it, and having certain cognitive/personality traits, may aid one in their quest for survival, but in such a scenario, there's no guarantees, it'd be a lot of luck of the draw, anything could happen, and 99%+ of the population would perish.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 12:57 pm

Different psychological types attempt to change their environment according to personal tastes in order to win advantage over others.

Joker's type and Satyr's type are at odds. One values chaos, the other values order. And so the two ultimately must compete. However this is Satyr's forum and realm, giving him advantage, and Joker will face an uphill battle.

Like arguing against humanism and egalitarianism on ILP. The format caters to the defenders of the status quo.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 1:35 pm

LaughingStock wrote:
Satyr can't be an aristocrat in this present world and so he imagines himself an old aristocrat of a by gone era that he vows to resurrect.
I think you've really grasped the concept of nobility; really sunk your teeth into it.

It's still clinging to those tattered remains of a top-hat, resting on a tuxedo, a pair of white gloves thrown to the side.

LaughingStock wrote:

Always remember that thought precedes action.
In your case neither applies.

Man-child, only modern buffoons (Nihilists), cannot see that the past is never gone.
It is always present.

That's what nature means.
That's what the past manifests as presence, as appearance, means.
The best you can do with past is forget it, cover it with a mask, some fashionable clothes, with imitated behaviors...lies, hypocrisies, pretenses...words.

One never overcomes the determining past, you simpleton...one merely pretends to have forgotten it, that he does not see its appearances - lehte.
Aletheia being the Hellenic word for truth.

The past can only be directed, added to, sublimated - controlled.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 1:48 pm

The past is always present and yet Satyr describes his distaste for modernity.

Hmm....

If the past is always present it is heavily repressed, isn't it?


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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 1:51 pm

Divergense wrote:
Some that don't get along so well in certain environments, may get along better in others, just like chimpanzees do well in African jungles, but wouldn't do so well in African deserts or savannahs. The same could be applied to individuals. Joker's antiauthoritarianism, charisma and recklessness may not work so well here, I mean well enough to survive, but not thrive. Perhaps his unstable personality would thrive in more unstable environments. A domesticated dog may do well inside the home, or on the farm, but what if its master were to suddenly be decapitated, would it be able think and fend for itself? Conversely, a wolf, or a wolf dog may not do so well in the home or on the farm, but survive and thrive if unleashed into the wild. Different dogs have different intelligences, some dogs are good at memorizing commands and following them on cue, but lack problem solving capabilities and resourcefulness. However, if the end of the world as we know it is nigh, and civilization is about to collapse, preparing for it, and having certain cognitive/personality traits, may aid one in their quest for survival, but in such a scenario, there's no guarantees, it'd be a lot of luck of the draw, anything could happen, and 99%+ of the population would perish.


As usual Diver you don't disappoint with your posts.

Ninety nine percent global death toll?

Nah, more like sixty five percent concerning odds I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 1:58 pm

Æon wrote:
Different psychological types attempt to change their environment according to personal tastes in order to win advantage over others.

Joker's type and Satyr's type are at odds.  One values chaos, the other values order.  And so the two ultimately must compete.  However this is Satyr's forum and realm, giving him advantage, and Joker will face an uphill battle.

Like arguing against humanism and egalitarianism on ILP.  The format caters to the defenders of the status quo.

Yes, me and Satyr are polar opposites. That's what makes it fun here.

As usual I don't stray away from conflict.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 4:48 pm

Like fighting a blind child who got lobotomized.

I'll sit still and see if dumb or if dumber will come close to landing a blow first.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 6:21 pm

Shut up faggot, I'm smarter than you are.
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 6:24 pm

PDitty wrote:
Shut up faggot, I'm smarter than you are.
That statement, on both counts, is about as accurate as everything else you've ever said.

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 8:12 pm

Divergense wrote:


Baudrillard wrote:
…sense of futility that comes from doing anything merely to prove to yourself that you can do it: having a child, climbing a mountain, making some sexual conquest, committing suicide.
The marathon is a form of demonstrative suicide, suicide as advertising: it is running to show you are capable of getting every last drop of energy out of yourself, to prove it… to prove what? That you are capable of finishing. Graffiti carry the same message. They simply say: I’m so-and-so and I exist! They are free publicity for existence.
Do we continually have to prove to ourselves that we exist? A strange sign of weakness, harbinger of a new fanaticism for a faceless performance, endlessly self-evident.

Are those not all examples of "will to power?

Are they not merely challenging themselves?

Maximizing their potential?

Are they doing it Just to say they can do it.. are you sure?

Might some people who run a marathon, or climb a mountain, or have a child, be passionate about those activities?

Might they be expressions of who they are, as individuals, deep down?


There's a NE will-to-power and a slavish WTP; Baudrillard was pointing to the latter - the United States of DisneyAmerica.

And his point was this very "individuality" was a simulacra manufactured, produced, sold...


Baudrillard wrote:
"In the past, differences of birth, blood and religion were not exchanged: they were not differences of fashion, but essential distinctions. They were not `consumed'. Current differences (of clothing, ideology, and even sex) are exchanged within a vast consortium of consumption. This is a socialized exchange of signs. And if everything can be exchanged in this way, in the form of signs, this is not by virtue of some `liberalization' of mores, but because differences are systematically produced in accordance with an order which integrates them all as identifying signs and, being substitutable one for another, there is no more tension or contradiction between them than there is between high and low or left and right." [The consumer Society]



Baudrillard wrote:
"Évelyne Sullerot puts this well:

"Woman is sold to women ... while doing what she believes is preening herself, scenting herself, clothing herself, in a word `creating' herself, she is, in fact, consuming herself."

There is a great difference between having self-worth [valoir] by dint of natural qualities and showing oneself off to best advantage [se faire valoir] by subscribing to a model and conforming to a ready-made code. What we have in this latter case is a functional femininity in which all the natural values of beauty, charm and sensuality give way to the
exponential values of (artificially achieved) naturalness, eroticism, `figure' and expressiveness.

Like violence, the forms of seduction and narcissism are laid down in advance by models produced industrially by the mass media and composed of identifiable signs (if all girls are to think they are Brigitte Bardot, then they must stand out from the crowd by virtue of their hair, their mouths or a particular feature of clothing -- that is to say, necessarily the same thing for all of them). Everyone finds his or her own personality in living up to these models." [ib.]


Baudrillard wrote:
"As Marx said of Napoleon III, sometimes in history the same events occur twice: the first time with real historical import; the second merely as caricatural evocation of the event, as a grotesque avatar of it -- sustained by a legendary reference. Cultural consumption may thus be defined as the time and place of the caricatural resurrection, the parodic evocation of what already no longer exists -- of what is not so much `consumed' as `consummated' (completed, past and gone). The tourists who journey by coach to the far north to re-enact the Gold Rush, hiring Eskimo tunics and clubs to provide some local colour, are people who are consuming: they are consuming in ritual form something which was a historical event, and has been forcibly reactualized as legend. In history, this process is called restoration: it is a process of the denial of history and the anti-evolutionist resurrection of earlier models. Consumption too, is thoroughly imbued with this anachronistic substance." [ib.]


Baudrillard wrote:
"the very `rediscovery' of the body is a corporeal recycling; the `rediscovery' of Nature, in the form of a countryside trimmed down to the dimensions of a mere sample, surrounded on all sides by the vast fabric of the city, carefully policed, and served up `at room temperature' as parkland, nature reserve or background scenery for second homes, is, in fact, a recycling of Nature. That is to say, it is no longer an original, specific presence at all, standing in symbolic opposition to culture, but a simulation, a `consommé ' of the signs of nature set back in circulation -- in short, nature recycled. If we have not yet reached this point everywhere, it is nonetheless the current trend. Whether we speak of countryside planning, conservation or environment, it is, in every case, a question of recycling a nature which is itself doomed. Like events, like knowledge, Nature is governed in this system by the principle of being up-to-the- minute. It has to change functionally, like fashion. It provides an ambience and is therefore subject to a replacement cycle. This is the same principle as is today invading the occupational field, where the values of science, technique, skill and competence are giving way to `recycling' -- that is to say, to the irresistible pressures of mobility, status and the career profile. What all the acculturated receive is not culture, but cultural recycling." [ib.]



Quote :
Do Americans not also say - do what you do. Find something you're good at, something you're passionate about, and run with it? I think there's likely something there, but I also think Billiard is running away with it.

Did Americans not inherit some of their traits from the ancient Greeks?

Their competitive, indomitable spirit.. their lust for glory and grandeur?

See above, and also my excerpt [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].


I think I called you a Minarchist before.

Libertarianism is only hedonism become politics. While I do get the fact that you just want to survive and get by, and live the best life within your means in relation to the circumstances and context you are living, NE does not see individuality as a termination with oneself. It is about willing to build beyond yourself. The max. order is one that persists the longest duration. Victory [not abs.] and self-worth is defined in terms of the degree of immortality you are able to achieve in a distinguished sense - freedom, not just an expression of what you attained, but also how you attained and the quality of the cost paid.

I did say just because civilizations and cultures go through periods of decadence as attrition is natural to any organism growing, doesn't mean, one cocoons one's visions and one's will to the current times. The Idea(l) must be given form, vision, shape, direction... to last even beyond our time.

What is Individuality if you do not create your own sun, and the world in your image... atleast in the striving for it...

"What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others lives beyond us." [Hannibal, 2.13]

rl.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 9:40 pm

Satyr wrote:
Like fighting a blind child who got lobotomized.

I'll sit still and see if dumb or if dumber will come close to landing a blow first.

Are you keeping that chair warm sitting on the sidelines?

Meanwhile, I live my life like there is no tomorrow.  Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Noble Elitism Noble Elitism - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 14, 2014 9:56 pm

My apologies, I skipped over Billiard, I'll address him later when I have more stamina, I haven't ate any sugar today.

Quote :
I think I called you a Minarchist before.
Close, I'm more of an anarchist now than I am a minarchist. I equate government with organized crime/violence. I want to live in a society that's either relatively (of course violence can only be mitigated, it can't be eliminated, anymore than death, pain and suffering can be eliminated) be peaceful and prosperous (anarchist), or, if violence is inevitable, than I want to live in a society where warfare isn't consolidated/monopolized by a tiny minority the way it is now, or, some combination of the two My anarchism isn't as dystopian as the Joker's nor as utopian as the capitalists and communists, it's somewhere in the middle, and I have a few fairly novel ideas about what such a society would look like, which I won't be divulging here, on this thread.

Quote :
Libertarianism is only hedonism become politics.
Or is it asceticism become politics?

Wouldn't a glutton try to murder, rape or enslave as many people as he could? An ascetic knows when enough is enough. A decadent would want to conquer the whole world, via capitalism or warfare, to try to satiate his insatiable appetite for wealth and power, fame and fortune, where as an ascetic, would only want a small portion of it, enough to feed his modest appetites, and the appetites of his family/friends, if he has one/any.

Quote :
While I do get the fact that you just want to survive and get by, and live the best life within your means in relation to the circumstances and context you are living, NE does not see individuality as a termination with oneself. It is about willing to build beyond yourself. The max. order is one that persists the longest duration. Victory [not abs.] and self-worth is defined in terms of the degree of immortality you are able to achieve in a distinguished sense - freedom, not just an expression of what you attained, but also how you attained and the quality of the cost paid.

I did say just because civilizations and cultures go through periods of decadence as attrition is natural to any organism growing, doesn't mean, one cocoons one's visions and one's will to the current times. The Idea(l) must be given form, vision, shape, direction... to last even beyond our time.
There's a cost though, like in the mafia, the higher you climb the ladder, the more everyone wants a piece of your pie. A lot of people want to become an Alexander or a Napoleon, but how many actually succeed? The vast majority fall by the wayside, they end up dead, only a few with extraordinary luck and talents make it, and then there's all the trappings of hedonism and materialism, of envy, greed and gluttony. What do they get you, ultimately? They satisfy your desires, but often at the cost of your needs. I prioritize, it's not that desire is inherently negative, but if one has to be sacrificed for the other, which is often the case, one ought to sacrifice the desire for the need. That's rationality, that's asceticism, what you're on about strikes me as the antithesis of rationality and asceticism, what you're on about is romanticism, hedonism, and vanity.

Quote :
What is Individuality if you do not create your own sun, and the world in your image... atleast in the striving for it...
That sounds like America, that's what most Americans do, they believe in shooting for the stars, and look where it's got them. The only difference between your sentiments and Americans, is you're advocating warrior aristocracy as opposed to plutocratic aristocracy, where as I'm advocating the annihilation of both, not an end to all hierarchies per say, I'm not a strict egalitarian, only a partial leveling. I'm against bloated hierarchies, where the elites have duped the masses, and are separated by billions and trillions of dollars, due to unjust banking practices, it's ludicrous.

Individuality is the end of becoming (I don't mean that in an absolute/metaphysical sense). It's Being who you are, thinking/feeling/saying/doing what you think/feel/say/do. It's the end of aspiring. It's acknowledging determinism, that the past, biology/culture/experiences, have irrevocably shaped the vast majority of who and what we are, and the world for that matter, so there's little room for change. Individuality means an end to striving. If you're trying to find yourself, or if you're trying to become a far fetched figment of your imagination, or someone else's, an abstraction, an archetype, like a Nietzschean Master, a Randian Capitalist, or a pious Christian, then you're about as anti-you as it gets. You means all of you, like the part of you that takes a shit and wipes her ass, the part of you that gets diarrhea sometimes when she eats too much curry. That is fundamental to who/what you are, is that in your noble conception of self (not saying that's who you are, but you get my point right? Who we are ain't just the flattering/grandiose parts). It should be, if it's authentic. Individuality is about making small adjustments to oneself here and there, changing of necessity, when a pressing need comes along, instead of because your friends told you you're not cool, or Nietzsche told you Genghis Khan was hip, so now you have to emulate him, something so foreign to the average man/woman living in the 21st century (I have no idea who you are, but for 99.9% of men and especially women living in modernity, you see how that archetype could never apply, even to the gifted?).

In a way, the way you talk, is very different from the way Satyr talks, he seems less ambitious than you, more modest in his appetites.

Do you two really see eye to eye?

Quote :
"What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others lives beyond us."
I'm not that much of atomist.

Although I'm a social isolate, for the time being, I am not opposed to living for family/friends, or even society. It's priorities, you take care of yourself first, and then you worry about others around you. Some people are more compassionate or, socially needy than others, it varies. Different individuals have different desires, but we all have the same needs basically. We all need to give/receive love/affection from our fellow man/woman, except for a few genuine psychopaths/schizoids out there, but it varies greatly. Humanity is a very diverse creature.
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