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 How Solipsism is Inescapable

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Divergense



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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:45 pm

Maybe you're a dog dreaming you're a human being, or maybe you're a rock dreaming you're a human being. You object, you say, how could a rock dream? I say how do you know a rock can't dream, maybe we're just too stupid to realize it's not a contradiction for a rock to dream. Just as sensation could be duped, logic could be duped, so that 2 + 2 only appears to be 4, when in actuality, it's 8, or 8000. In order to affirm yourself as a conscious being with thoughts, feelings and sensations, you need memories, a past on which to base your thoughts on. If your sensations can't be trusted, then perhaps your memories are faulty, and your logic, not referring to anything other than themselves. Is there any subjectivity present in labeling yourself a conscious being? Why do you even feel the need to label yourself as such, is that something purely objective, or is it too a product of your values, your peculiar cognition, your language, your need to say I am x and not y, at this particular junction in (your) existence? Where is the line between subject and object? Your consciousness could also be an illusion, a byproduct of atoms and void, bouncing up against one another, purely illusory, like Aeon is alluding to. Where does object begin and subject end? Do the objects of our thinking move independently of our thinking of them, or the objects of our feeling? Is it a case of black/white, or is it a spectrum?
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:55 pm

Divergense wrote:
Maybe you're a dog dreaming you're a human being, or maybe you're a rock dreaming you're a human being. You object, you say, how could a rock dream? I say how do you know a rock can't dream, maybe we're just too stupid to realize it's not a contradiction for a rock to dream. Just as sensation could be duped, logic could be duped, so that 2 + 2 only appears to be 4, when in actuality, it's 8, or 8000. In order to affirm yourself as a conscious being with thoughts, feelings and sensations, you need memories, a past on which to base your thoughts on? If your sensations can't be trusted, then perhaps your memories are faulty, and your logic, they don't refer to anything other than themselves. Is there any subjectivity present in labeling yourself a conscious being? Why do you even feel the need to label yourself as such, is that something purely objective, or is it too a product of your values, your peculiar cognition, your language, your need to say I am x and not y, at this particular junction in (your) existence? Where is the line between subject and object? Your consciousness could also be an illusion, a byproduct of atoms and void, bouncing up against one another, purely illusory, like Aeon is alluding to. Where does object begin and subject end? Do the objects of our thinking move independently of our thinking of them, or the objects of our feeling? Is it a case of black/white, or is it a spectrum?

Yes, things can get very weird with solipsism, real fast. There are numerous possibilities, but I stick to what is self-evident.

How would consciousness be an illusion? How could consciousness not be real when I am it? It's blatant, self-evident. Am I, really, not aware right now? Am I not experiencing right now?
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:59 pm

Erik wrote:
Divergense wrote:
Maybe you're a dog dreaming you're a human being, or maybe you're a rock dreaming you're a human being. You object, you say, how could a rock dream? I say how do you know a rock can't dream, maybe we're just too stupid to realize it's not a contradiction for a rock to dream. Just as sensation could be duped, logic could be duped, so that 2 + 2 only appears to be 4, when in actuality, it's 8, or 8000. In order to affirm yourself as a conscious being with thoughts, feelings and sensations, you need memories, a past on which to base your thoughts on? If your sensations can't be trusted, then perhaps your memories are faulty, and your logic, they don't refer to anything other than themselves. Is there any subjectivity present in labeling yourself a conscious being? Why do you even feel the need to label yourself as such, is that something purely objective, or is it too a product of your values, your peculiar cognition, your language, your need to say I am x and not y, at this particular junction in (your) existence? Where is the line between subject and object? Your consciousness could also be an illusion, a byproduct of atoms and void, bouncing up against one another, purely illusory, like Aeon is alluding to. Where does object begin and subject end? Do the objects of our thinking move independently of our thinking of them, or the objects of our feeling? Is it a case of black/white, or is it a spectrum?

Yes, things can get very weird with solipsism, real fast. There are numerous possibilities, but I stick to what is self-evident.

How would consciousness be an illusion? How could consciousness not be real when I am it? It's blatant, self-evident. Am I, really, not aware right now? Am I not experiencing right now?
To a being a million times more conscious than yourself, you might appear to have the consciousness of a billiard ball (no offense, I would appear that way to such a being of course (laughs).
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:03 pm

Define consciousness. Is the word itself objective, or is it just something your culture has brainwashed you into thinking you need? Perhaps you could come up with a better word, or a string of words, or perhaps silence/experience itself would better define you than any word you could come up with, within the English language, or without.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:07 pm

Could intelligence too be deceived?

Is it possible labeling your experience as consciousness/self is dumb, and only appears as smart? Is everything happening independently of me, involuntarily, or is nothing happening independently of me, voluntarily?


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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:09 pm

Hahaha, falling off a cliff isn't proof of objective reality???

Yet you evolved the sense of fear, what....randomly, magically???
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:17 pm

Divergense wrote:
Define consciousness. Is the word itself objective, or is it just something your culture has brainwashed you into thinking you need? Perhaps you could come up with a better word, or a string of words, or perhaps silence/experience itself would better define you than any word you could come up with, within the English language, or without.

I can't, really, say anything is objective for sure; all I experience, all I know for sure is subjective.

Consciousness, to me, is the basis of reality. I am it.

Aeon, little kids can evolve fear of their fathers abusing them when they come home, but does that mean that every time the father comes home, that he will abuse the child? Like I said, " Consistency ".
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:20 pm

Child abuse is comparable to falling off a cliff, an innate fear of height, a reflex, as a counter argument against an objective reality where the universe doesn't give a shit if a human, or any other animal, lives or dies?

It's ironic that you accused me of christian thinking....

A solipsist cannot imagine that the world doesn't revolve around you.

Yet the very idea and existence of hierarchy, proves just the opposite.


A quick question,
Are babies born with more authority than their parents? If the answer is no then you'll eventually agree with me about my argument.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:30 pm

Æon wrote:
Child abuse is comparable to falling off a cliff, an innate fear of height, a reflex, as a counter argument against an objective reality where the universe doesn't give a shit if a human, or any other animal, lives or dies?

It's ironic that you accused me of christian thinking....

A solipsist cannot imagine that the world doesn't revolve around you.

Yet the very idea and existence of hierarchy, proves just the opposite.


A quick question,
Are babies born with more authority than their parents?  If the answer is no then you'll eventually agree with me about my argument.

Aeon, we have evolved those fears and reflexes based on experience of patterns. But patterns change sometimes.

I don't imagine that the objective world revolves around me ( If it even exists ). I claim that my experiences revolve around me; they are relative to me.

I've had dreams before that I was enslaved to some brutal, draconian Viking bersker. He locked me up in the dungeon of his ship. There was a hierarchy in the dream; I was the slave, he was the master. But the dream was an emanation of my mind, no?

Parents have more power over their babies.


Last edited by Erik on Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:37 pm

No, instincts and reflexes are not based on experiences.

For example, a young child will touch a hot stove, burning his or her hand. The child has an instinct, a reflex to recoil from that searing pain. Genes encode these reflexes.

The child does not need instructions and education to be told to remove his or her hand.

Yes???

Reflexes, instinct, nature, all resist change since these phenomena represent order. Already established, before your very conception. Genes withhold the instruction of these instincts, the "house of the soul" so to speak.

Fear of heights is not magical, and not random.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:42 pm

Æon wrote:
No, instincts and reflexes are not based on experiences.

For example, a young child will touch a hot stove, burning his or her hand.  The child has an instinct, a reflex to recoil from that searing pain.  Genes encode these reflexes.

The child does not need instructions and education to be told to remove his or her hand.

Yes???

Reflexes, instinct, nature, all resist change since these phenomena represent order.  Already established, before your very conception.  Genes withhold the instruction of these instincts, the "house of the soul" so to speak.

Fear of heights is not magical, and not random.

Okay, and I agree; I believe that, theoretically, the objective world is very plausible, makes perfect sense. The problem is in knowing that it exists.

Like I said before, it's conceivable that my experience of life is just a highly complex and organized phantom dream.

I'd like to know how you define knowledge, or knowing.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:07 pm

It's like this - you should keep your mind open, but not so open that it falls out.


Oh wait..... No! No! Nononono!!





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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:14 pm

There Will Be Blood wrote:
It's like this - you should keep your mind open, but not so open that it falls out.


Oh wait..... No! No! Nononono!!






That's, actually, a nice song, Blood. Sounds like it was used in the movie Fight Club.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:16 pm

Erik wrote:
I'd like to know how you define knowledge, or knowing.
Knowledge is genes, biology, instinct, reflex, nature.

Education and indoctrination, nurturing, comes much later in life. The modernist calls nurture, diplomas, academia, her "knowledge". But nurture is only the extension, the result of nature. Nature is the foundation, the ground, the reality. Nurture is the artifice, the heavens, the skies, the ideal-ity.

Top-down or bottom-up.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:35 pm

Æon wrote:
Erik wrote:
I'd like to know how you define knowledge, or knowing.
Knowledge is genes, biology, instinct, reflex, nature.

Education and indoctrination, nurturing, comes much later in life.  The modernist calls nurture, diplomas, academia, her "knowledge".  But nurture is only the extension, the result of nature.  Nature is the foundation, the ground, the reality.  Nurture is the artifice, the heavens, the skies, the ideal-ity.

Top-down or bottom-up.

Knowing/knowldge = genes, biology, instinct, reflex, nature?

I was expecting something more along the lines of, say, " Justified belief ". But okay....

Let's try it a different way - How do you come to know something is true for certain?
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:52 pm

Certainty requires faith.

You can only have faith in that which you don't know, have not experienced. You have faith that other planets exist, unseen, and not yet experienced. You believe scientists. You place your faith in their hands, technology, measurements, and theories.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:57 pm

Æon wrote:
Certainty requires faith.

You can only have faith in that which you don't know, have not experienced.  You have faith that other planets exist, unseen, and not yet experienced.  You believe scientists.  You place your faith in their hands, technology, measurements, and theories.

Now you are starting to see the light.

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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:32 pm

Ideas are exceptions to existence, not the given, and definitely do not constitute evidence of existence.

Solipsists believe the opposite. A solipsist believes that ideas are the core or origin of existence.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:50 pm

Æon wrote:
Ideas are exceptions to existence, not the given, and definitely do not constitute evidence of existence.

Solipsists believe the opposite.  A solipsist believes that ideas are the core or origin of existence.

Nein.....nein, NEIN, NEIN!

Solipsists claim that consciousness, the " I Am-nesss " is the core of existence.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:17 am

Solipsism is another word describing the mind of God - the absolute Being.

With nothing outside of it, it is totally self-referential and self-determining.

Once more the absolute, the ideal, is contradicted by the world, the real.
The sense data, streaming into the brain, forcing it to deal with them, is what "disturbs" the completion.

Only in sheltering systems can one advance towards complete detachment from reality, and living in your head. There is no completion, no finality, but it is an increase in the possibility of remaining more self-referential once you've paid your dues and earned your "right" to live in your head.

This is the often used civility clause, where you are not to disturb the other's delusion, his solipsistic world, if he is to not disturb yours - the social construct.
Shared, yet fragmented, delusions.

it expresses itself as an insistence on politeness, and to "agree to disagree", becoming a perspectivism where the world can be interested in this or in that way, once the world itself, received through the senses, has been dismissed as an illusion.
to explain it using my usual lexicon, it would be the emphasis on the noemenon, at the expense of the phenomenon, once the phenomenal world is taken care of for us, by automatic, institutional, mechanisms.

The individual cogs in the mechanism need not engage the real world, but only focus on their tasks in relation to the mechanism that does deal with it (specialization).
Once the role is learned and has become second nature the brain's energies are freed to engage in whatever form of self-numbing the organism is directed to by its own particular organic hierarchies and the needs it produces.

Cynicism becomes common because nothing said or done ever matters, beyond the casual exchange of stimuli.
The organism's role is settled; it's world-view dedicated to fulfilling its role within the mechanics.
Everything else is play, entertainment, distraction.

Ideas, having been detached from the world, and a behemoth of an automated mechanization placed between individual organism and the world, the past/nature, are now reversible.

This is how we can have a debate over whether pleasure is a decrease in suffering or if suffering is a decrease in pleasure.
The world, as a reference point, an objective standard, is not in use.
The experience encased within the machinery, loses contact with the natural world, and all concepts become debatable....a game.

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PostSubject: addition example Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:46 am

as another example of the implicit objectiveness of your argument: You are claiming and assuming claims about other minds than your own. Not simply that they exist, but what can and cannot happen when they experience. So somehow you allow your mind to know not only other minds, but what must be the limits of those other minds, all while you are claiming, directly, that your own mind only experiences itself.
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PostSubject: Re: How Solipsism is Inescapable Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:50 am

Kovacs wrote:
as another example of the implicit objectiveness of your argument: You are claiming and assuming claims about other minds than your own.   Not simply that they exist, but what can and cannot happen when they experience.   So somehow you allow your mind to know not only other minds, but what must be the limits of those other minds, all while you are claiming, directly, that your own mind only experiences itself.


You are correct. Actually, someone in ILP pointed this out to me. I acknowledge my error. I should restate my position:

What I mean is that all that I know of is based in personal experience, subjectivity. Maybe there is some way for me to know things objectively, but I've never experienced it. If you can show me how, I'm all ears.

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