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 De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity.

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PostSubject: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyTue Sep 16, 2014 4:05 am

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"Devolution, de-evolution, or backward evolution is the notion that species can change into more "primitive" forms over time. In modern biology the term is redundant: evolutionary science deals with selection or adaptation that results in populations of organisms genetically different from their ancestral forms. The discipline makes no general distinction between changes leading to populations of forms less complex or more complex than their ancestors, and in such terms the concept of a primitive species cannot be defined consistently. Consequently, within the discipline such a word is rarely useful." - Wikipedia

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MonoExplosion wrote:
I am going to assume you didn't read any further.

Quote :

The idea of de-evolution is based at least partly on the presumption that "evolution" requires some sort of purposeful direction towards "increasing complexity". Modern evolutionary theory, beginning with Darwin at least, poses no such presumption and the concept of evolutionary change is independent of either any increase in complexity of organisms sharing a gene pool, or any decrease, such as in vestigiality or in loss of genes.

Quote :
Early scientific theories of transmutation of species such as Lamarckism and orthogenesis perceived species diversity as a result of a purposeful internal drive or tendency to form improved adaptations to the environment. In contrast, Darwinian evolution and its elaboration in the light of subsequent advances in biological research, have shown that adaptation through natural selection comes about when particular heritable attributes in a population happen to give a better chance of successful reproduction in the reigning environment than rival attributes do. By the same process less advantageous attributes are less "successful"; they decrease in frequency or are lost completely. Since Darwin's time it has been shown how these changes in the frequencies of attributes occur according to the mechanisms of genetics and the laws of inheritance originally investigated by Gregor Mendel.

Quote :
People thinking in terms of devolution commonly assume that progress is shown by increasing complexity, but biologists studying the evolution of complexity find evidence of many examples of decreasing complexity in the record of evolution. The lower jaw in fish, reptiles and mammals has seen a decrease in complexity, if measured by the number of bones. Ancestors of modern horses had several toes on each foot; modern horses have a single hooved toe. Modern humans may be evolving towards never having wisdom teeth, and already have lost most of the tail found in many other mammals - not to mention other vestigial structures, such as the vermiform appendix or the nictitating membrane.

A decrease in complexity is not necessarily a devolution.

Quote :
At a trivial level, where just one or a few mutations are involved, selection pressure in one direction can have one effect, which can be reversed by new patterns of selection when conditions change. That could be seen as reversed evolution, though the concept is of not much interest because it does not differ in any functional or effective way from any other adaptation to selection pressures

This is probably the most interesting part of the page though:

Quote :
"Devolution", the verb "devolve" and the past participle "devolved" are all common terms in science fiction for changes over time in populations of living things that make them less complex and remove some of their former adaptations. The terminology used herein is nontechnical, but the phenomenon is a real but counter-intuitive one, more accurately known as streamlining evolution[citation needed]. Since the development and maintenance of a feature such as an organ or a metabolite has an opportunity cost, changes in the environment that reduce the utility of an adaptation may mean that a higher evolutionary fitness is achieved by no longer using the adaptation, thus better using resources. This requires a mutation that inactivates one or more genes, perhaps by a change to DNA methylation or a methionine codon. Streamlining evolution allows evolution to remove features no longer of much/any use, like scaffolding on a completed bridge.

However, "devolution" in practice typically refers to changes that occur from a problem no longer existing rather than superior solutions existing. For instance, of the several hundred known species of animal that live their entire lives in total darkness, most have non-functional eyes rather than no eyes. This is due, for instance, to deterioration of the optic nerve. It occurs because mutations that prevent eye formation have low probability. However, several eyeless animal species, such as the Kauai cave wolf spider, who live in total darkness, and whose ancestry mostly had eyes, do exist. Together with gene duplication, streamlining evolution makes evolution surprisingly able to produce radical changes, despite being limited to successive, slight modifications.

That to me suggests that it is possible for adaptations to be removed from populations as they are no longer needed (intelligence for example). Though I am struggling to find many articles even using the university access I have to journals investigating this concept.

It's noteworthy that nowhere in the above quoted did they mention what, if any, is the proper terminology for speaking of a species losing complexity, since the term devolution is unacceptable to them. Speaking to sub-species of animals with eyes and decent sight diverging into an environment where sight is not needed, it seems it may be relevant enough to mention whether the adaption to this dark environment involved simply a decrease in complexity by simply losing the highly complex system of sight with nothing significant taking tis place, or more or less a replacement for the lost complexity such as through an enhancement in other senses.

For example, take a species of rodent, that is highly active in the day light, and relying much on its sight. That species is then divided when many find themselves needing to restrict themselves underground. It's possible that they'll be in an underground environment where much activity is required, but they may also find that this environment, while underground, is abundant in food. Basically just becoming a lethargic sub-species, that moves relatively little. Not only will it's sense of sight diminish, but it's intelligence, athleticism, agility, etc. will diminish.

Would it not be relevant for a zoologist categorizing these various types or sub-species of rats, to say which ones are more complex and which are less? It sounds strange to just say one type is more complex than the other, while it sounds very natural to say one type is more evolved than the other or one type has devolved in comparison to the other.
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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyTue Sep 16, 2014 6:17 am

We're talking about dysgenic traits: those which do not contribute to the advantageous development of an organism.
In respects to mental evolution: A less intelligent offspring of two highly intelligent parents.
Then, lower organisms are also spawned from higher organisms.
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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyTue Sep 16, 2014 2:02 pm

Essentially, the complexity or simplicity of a species is a reflection of whatever was a superior form for survival at the particular time and in the particular place that species emerged.

I think an important factor in the selective breeding of people would be that generally, once a trait has been bred out, it is difficult for it to become expressed again, though some analogous trait may function in its place in future.

Hrodebert wrote:
We're talking about dysgenic traits: those which do not contribute to the advantageous development of an organism.
In respects to mental evolution: A less intelligent offspring of two highly intelligent parents.
Then, lower organisms are also spawned from higher organisms.

If two highly intelligent people can have a stupid child (and I'm not disagreeing with you, that is possible) then it doesn't matter if the parents are black, white, chinese or whatever.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyWed Sep 17, 2014 7:53 am

MonoExplosion wrote:
Essentially, the complexity or simplicity of a species is a reflection of whatever was a superior form for survival at the particular time and in the particular place that species emerged.

There's no question of that.

The basic question is if biologists, in any context, rate the complexity of various life forms. If no, then why not, if yes what criteria and terminology do they use?

We all know that there's a broad ranking of complexity. Basically, biologists speak of orders of life, and it's implied if not stated outright that they vary in complexity. But, it seems to a certain extent direct ranking in terms of complexity is not done, as if there was no use for it. Yet, one use among many would be related to extinction.

Environmental issues seem to get left to the same people involved in 'humanistic' causes, who often show an inability to make realistic expectations. But, the fact is that the we can't prevent the extinction of all endangered species.

Once we make it clear that any give set of endangered species are unnecessary to their environment, such as if there are other species with redundant functions already present, then we would need to find another form of criteria in deciding how much attention and resources needs to be given to each species in the set. The complexity of the species seems to be a useful criterion.
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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyWed Sep 17, 2014 11:39 am

(D)evolution;
Superior and inferior are concepts relative to the time/space one lives in.
Individual comparison with added circumstances:
A low IQ Pygmy has a higher chance of survival and procreation than a White rocket scientist stranded in his habitat.

We judge the inferiority of an average Sub-Saharan African mainly due to his/her low intellect, low impulse control, higher testosterone quantities etc.
We compare the negroid populations with the European populations. To our standards they are inferior; not being able for example to build, develop and maintain a community / society - arts, architectural delights, certain music genres, literature. But the judgment of them being inferior as a whole compared to Whites, is a concept constructed by our minds.

To be a human, to us, is more than just being able to have offspring with each other, more than the lowest common denominator.
The standards regarding being judged as a human has developed over time by the Eurasian peoples: Intellectual capacity, empathy, creativity, hormone quantities, altruism.
The absence of these characteristics in individuals, or amongst certain races on average, are people who are inferior to our standards.

But nature does not care.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyThu Apr 30, 2015 11:36 pm

We seem to have lost about a tennisball worth of brain size about 20,000 years ago. This fits nicely into the narrative of earliest grain grinding, also about 20,000 years ago. Most would say its the food that changed our brains. But it might have been domestication. This really is too complicated for me - since the sources dont mention race specifically but just talk of "modern humans", what is one to make out of it?

Also neanderthals had the biggest brain, but this is explained away as them having improved sensory - not thinking ability. If going by what Satyr says, if I remember correctly, it seems normal that neanderthals would have had larger brains - being less technological and living in a harsher nature (closer to reality?) they would then be more advanced?

From Wikipedia:

Wiki wrote:
From early primates to hominids and finally to Homo sapiens, the brain has grown. The volume of the human brain has increased as humans have evolved (see Homininae), starting from about 600 cm3 in Homo habilis up to 1600 cm3 in Homo neanderthalensis, which was the hominid with the biggest brain size.[5] The increase in brain size topped with neanderthals. Since then, the average brain size has been shrinking over the past 28,000 years.[6] The cranial capacity has decreased from around 1,550 cm3 to around 1,440 cm3 in males while the female cranial capacity has shrunk from around 1,500 cm3 to around 1,240 cm3.[7] Other sources with bigger sample sizes of modern Homo sapiens find approximately the same cranial capacity for males but a higher cranial capacity of around 1330 cm3 in females.[8]

I still dont quite understand the disparity between men and women, which at times, individually, can be extreme. What I gather from the race talk is just that - race. Very few mention the difference between men and women.

I think Satyr mentions both on the forum and in his MANifesto about domestication of men and women, but how come we seem to have lost so much brain power? And all of us, even our elite?
It must really pay off to be wild. Then how come africans have the smallest brains? Surely they were not advanced enough ever - being unaffected by the changes occuring 20,000 years ago in the rest of the world - to be domesticated? Or were they indeed... the very first to be domesticated?

And how does this fit in with blond&blue eyed combo which is said to have come about 10,000 years ago, at the advent of modern farming. Are they the latest domestication of man? Are we scandinavian/germanic-looking guys the very latest in sheltered manimals bred 'purposefully' by artificial 'civilizational' constructs? Are nordic types , proud as they are of their "icy heritage", pherhaps the most removed from nature of all humans - biologically speaking? I could not do proper research on this since it was all bungled with politics and I gave up.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyFri May 01, 2015 3:50 am

Drome wrote:
I think Satyr mentions both on the forum and in his MANifesto about domestication of men and women, but how come we seem to have lost so much brain power? And all of us, even our elite?
It must really pay off to be wild. Then how come africans have the smallest brains? Surely they were not advanced enough ever - being unaffected by the changes occuring 20,000 years ago in the rest of the world - to be domesticated? Or were they indeed... the very first to be domesticated?


Satyr wrote:
"Need, being the mother of invention....NEED...
No need: eternal pleasure, meaning easy satiation of needs...and you have stagnation....and degradation: atrophying, Dysgenics.

Centuries of struggle, or engaging environment, of agon, resulting in the Caucasian race, producing the Indo-European tribes and Aryan culture...diluted in a lifetime of race-mixing.
Every suffering, every adaptation, that went into creating a gene pool, a pool of shared struggles, passing on potential (probability, a particular type of ordering) then diluted, decreased, by injecting it with a different set of potentials and probabilities...lowering it to a median.

Like when centuries produce stalagmites that can then be chipped away and destroyed in a matter of minutes.

Are not Negroes addicted to pleasure?"

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyTue Nov 30, 2021 3:28 pm


Notice the chart and how one point branches out into multiple directions which then become the point of origin for other branches.

The odds of life emerging on a planet are astronomical.
The odds that intelligent life would emerge from it, adds to it a level of improbability.
All life is related in that it can be traced back to a single ancestor.
Each kind adding or subtracting complexity.
Family trees developing as species splinter off and then splinter off again.
Linear time suggests that what has been done cannot be undone - we cannot go back in time, we cannot uncaused an effect once it has become, present - once it has become presence.
Past manifests as presence, but presence cannot manifest as past - presence IS past made present - interpreted as appearance, i.e., sensually.
The quality of interpretation varies and is subjective. Interpretations that have been tried and tested over space/time have proven to be sufficient - fit - not equal, not of equal quality; the superior interpretation will dominate, in time, the inferior, implying that complexity will dominate simplicity - but not totally, not certainly, because efficiency is a factor of effectiveness, and effectiveness is a measure of adaptation to fluctuating space/time, i.e., flux, interactivity, existence.

Speciation defined as what can use itself to replicate.
So a species is created when it can no longer reproduce with another species that has splintered off from a common ancestor. Over multiple generation a population accumulates so many mutations that is can no longer synthesize with the ancestor it splintered from, let alone to synthesize with another population that has accumulated its own mutations.
Mutations being how a genetic population interacts with its environment.  
We see intermediating phases in such species as grizzlies and polar bears, or wolves and dogs, or tigers and lions. There we find that mixing is still possible but at a cost - unfitness, or at the cost of further reproduction.
The odds of two different species emerging separately and then developing the ability of reproducing with each other, is impossible. This is Star Trek biology where different space species from different planets can create hybrids - the stuff of science fiction.
That's not to say that Darwin's of evolution theory, like all theories, doesn't have its issues as all theories are a presentation of probability, not certainty.



"Intelligence" would mean "order", not intent. An underlying pattern, which is what we call "design" - requiring no designer. 
An organism would perceive patterns in itself, reflected in the world around it, seeing itself mirrored back, jumping to the wrong conclusion that there is consciousness where there is only order.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptySun Dec 26, 2021 6:32 am


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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptySun Dec 26, 2021 8:02 am

^
@17:00 "Brain size has just exploded! - So do you think they were smarter than us? - No because it's all back in their head and they would have killed us at any sports."

That sounds strange, why is she coming up with this "sports" idea when asked about the brain size? The back in the head idea might be partially true but I wouldn't be surprised if it's largely a cope.
What I do know is that the idea that something or someone would be more intelligent than the modern man, in particular the man of the current year is at odds with the currently propagated Zeitgeist. No matter if it were a Neanderthal or the average intelligence of people living 3000 years ago in antiquity.
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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptySat Mar 12, 2022 4:06 pm

Evolution - natural selection.

Mutations arise with every replication - cellular or organic.
Some offer an advantage, others a disadvantage, and some neither, awaiting another mutation to develop/express their offering.
The process of determining if mutations are advantageous disadvantageous or neutral is called natural selection.
This process is what made man dominant on earth.
This process evolved intelligence and consciousness.
Without this seemingly brutal and unjust method there would be no life and no men to contemplate any of it.

But man, after gaining intelligence and consciousness,. thinks himself a god and intervenes upon natural selection, in accordance with his morals, which are founded on his insecurities and existential anxieties.
Although we've all benefited from this intervention most of us cannot recognize nor acknowledge the negative consequences of this intervention because most, as by-products of sheltering interventions, are unable to reason and to think objectively, but have regressed to manimal subjectivity and find there all the reason they need to remain obtuse and comfortably numb, seeking solace in collective support.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyMon Jun 20, 2022 11:39 am

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Cause/Effect.
Natural selection is always based on the act of choice - a distinguishing act that separates the living from the non-living - whether this be rudimentary, as with plants, or more complex, as with humans.
A difference between unintentionality (no-will) and intentionality (will) - the former simply flowing along paths of least-ressitance, and the former able to diverge and choose to flow towards more resistance, if it stands in the way of an objective.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyFri Jul 14, 2023 9:57 am



*There is no nothingness, there is no-thingness, if we define 'thing' as an interpretation of a pattern.
No-thingness is stating the obvious - there is no static, immutable, indivisible singularity.
A 'thing' is a mental construct, referring to a dynamic energy pattern - natural order - therefore what precedes our experienced existence is the state of chaos.
Chaos and Order not being absolute states - complete, final, perfect.
Even the idea that existence is preceded by something - implying non-existence - is a product of human prejudice - nihilism.
Existence is a continuum.....ceasless, boundless, constant.
What men mean by 'what existed before existence?' - a oxymoron - is 'what state preceded this state where life is possible?'


*The idea that because man is not omniscient - like this debunked one-god of Abraham - therefore anything is equally possible, is an absurdity only Desperate Degenerates would sue in lieu of rational arguments.
The fact that man does not understand how life begun does not mean life does not exist, or that nothing about life can be stated.
Value judgments are about determining which hypothesis is more probable than another.
Ignorance is not an argument.
Survival of the fittest applies to theories.
Less probable theories lead to bad consequences when and if they are applied - negative in the sense of being detrimental to the welfare of an individual who considers it probable, or negative in relation to the individual's' expectations.


*Mutational loads causing psychological dysphoria, and sexual failure, are now being integrated into the category of 'gender.'
Gender has always been the socioeconomic, cultural, application of reproductive, sexual roles.


*Mixed races - miscegenation - proves the validity of race as a biological category.
The dilution of racial identities, due to modern circumstances, means the traits that made the race possible are being degraded - degeneration.
De-evolving.

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PostSubject: Re: De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. De Evolution and Variations in biological complexity. EmptyMon Oct 16, 2023 1:40 pm

Genetic drift = product of chaos and unforeseeable events, like a meteor striking the earth.

Extinction = product of environmental shifts, and an inability to adapt....and ongoing competition.
Paret of natural selection.

Compounding mutations are only detrimental when a population is sheltered, e.g., humans, and are protected from natural culling, diseases, etc.
Unfit mutations are culled out of populations, under natural circumstances.
Environment always determines what is advantageous and what is not...and if stupidity is advantageous then stupidity survives and propagates.
Human degeneration is a consequence of prolonged sheltering and ideological redefinitions of what is 'superior' and desirable, and what 'inferior', and undesirable. By ideologically adjusting what traits are to become socially advantageous and which are to become disadvantageous and "toxic."
Control of language is part of this process.
Through the agency of female sexual choice filtering sifts out of the social system individuals with "undesirable traits."

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