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 Objective <> Subjective

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:34 pm

Objectivity does not mean absolute truth.
Paradoxically it is our subjectivity that must translate the fluid real into static abstractions which we then mistakenly being are absolutes, and think they exist outside our minds.

These subjective absolutes can be positive, as in ONE TRUTH, or negative as in NIL TRUTH.
Primitive minds cannot conceptualize further than their own subjectivity, affected by anxieties, existential issues, emotion, self-interests, vanity, arrogance, psychosis, narcissism. They are trapped in their own subjectivity unable or unwilling to place the standard of evaluating their own opinions outside themselves.
Normally his would not be a problem, because natural selection does not require the organism to accept or to agree...it exacts a price whether the organism has a brain, or not.
but we live in systems that shelter minds form the consequences...so this produces the delusion that all judgments are equal, or their difference in quality is insignificant, nothing to talk about, or to study, or to even mention.
All falls in category 3, in the above list...where philosophy now becomes dominated by effete, infantile, buffoons, with an opinion, and the sense of entitlement that demands to be heard, and to be respected...no matter what crap comes out of their mouths.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:31 am

If we adopt the explosion metaphor, from Big Bang, then the objective corresponds to the[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] crest, as the universe expands.
The wave crest is the ongoing present, which cannot be consciously perceived but only in hindsight , as the after-the-fact evaluation of the consequences - empiricism.

Consciousness lags behind existence...and as Heidegger said, it is a 'looking back'.
So to be objective refers to the closest approach to presence possible, given the time/space requirements to perceive and process the stimulation produced by interactivity (Flux).
Conventional meaning of objectivity is a subjective perspective which has reduced the corrupting effects of emotion, personal desires, and self interest.
A perspective void, as much as possible, of the prejudices genetics and memetics produce.

Empiricism is another way to describe it, and it is also called the scientific method, because science has adopted it to justify and validate its own theories and hypothesis regarding existence.
I refer to it as a re-connection of noetic constructs, via words/symbols, with what is apparent, what is phenomena - that which can be experienced, tested, and validated by multiple minds, through time/space.
The end result is a hypothesis, a theory, void, as much as possible, of all human prejudices (genetics), and all cultural influences (memetics).
The world is the standard to evaluate idea(l)s.
The world not meaning human world, or world constructed and maintained by human interventions, but the world before, beyond, outside human interventions - also called artificial to distinguish them form spontaneously emerging, natural, phenomena.

Artificial has already been defined by me as the ambiguous point in space/time when the interventions of a species, in this case the human, upon environment begin to affect the species more than the environment intervened upon.
We can safely say that modern human socioeconomic systems fall in this category as they far exceed in effect, upon humans, the environment they have intervened upon and sublimated.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:12 pm

Objectivity, as a qualification of subjectivity, is about eliminating emotion, self-interest, ego, form the perception of phenomena.
As this is not entirely possible, for a living organism with needs, one approaches it, and become objective to a degree.

Like Hellenic asceticism and unlike Hedonism, suffering nor pleasure are the goals, the objectives, but an approach to objectivity, means an approach to how the world is - a perfect harmony of reality and ideal.
The goal is not to remain un-involved, or disinterested, or emotionless, or to deny yourself pleasure, but to clarify, to see as clearly as possible to then gain an appreciation of your own perspective, and to shape your ideals, adjusting your goals accordingly.

To be objective is to see the world as it is, and not as you like it to be...so it is to be as a god, in a theoretical "outside".
The more objective you become the more how phenomena, patterns, relate and interact, becomes clear - unaffected by desire or need, or intent.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:12 pm

I place nothing above truth.
Whether one is free to speak it, or ought o speak it, is another matter.
When I speak of truth, I mean no absolute, certain, perspective, but one that is superior in its approach to the objective world which is dynamic, but still contains patterns that govern patterns interacting.

Truth is a set of rules, held as predicting how the ordered world of perceived matter/energy relate, leaving beyond perception, those energies which lack all consistent, repeating, order.
Truth is an ongoing process of updating, or approaching what is continuously falling away, knowing that a complete merger of subjective and objective is not only impossible but entirely undesirable, as it would be an end.
At the same time I do not define truth as totally meaningless, because this continuous falling away dies not mean that where order exists there are not some underlying laws governing them, for the time being.
To be aware of these patterns that underlie patterns is what I define as understanding, as opposed to knowing.
An animal knows, because it perceives patterns, and interprets them as colour, shape, scent, abstracting them as tree, fruit, stone etc. but it does not understand, on the level a human can, because it cannot find a connections governing all these patterns, and it certainly cannot imagine the presence of random energies it cannot even intuit, but has evolved to take them into account when it, like all simple organisms, side on the side of caution.
An animal's awareness of causality is simple and direct.
Fear of the dark can be ascribed to such an siding with caution, when one senses there is more, but cannot perceive, and cannot know or understand.

These laws, are not themselves eternal, but they are, in relation to human lifespans, and history, sufficient to produce civilization, and an understanding of nature, and organic behavior.

Truth is not an end in itself, although many have made it so.
Such an endeavour is reserved for those that surpass the human condition, with its desires, fears, needs, hopes, ambitions, loves and hates.
Truth is a means of clarifying, testing, validating ideas, ideals.

Truth is not an absolute.
For those who are clear and clean, it is another way of saying superior, or most probable.
Truth is another way of saying ariston.
There is no place in truth for emotion, needs, desire,ego, because then it is corrupt and false.
Truth is how ego, emotion, focus and direct themselves in an unforgiving world, where absolutes are absent.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:24 am

Truth is not power, nor is it pleasing, but it may be used for the pursuit of both.
Truth just is.
How it is used, and how effective it is in being used, is a matter of Will.
Truth has no intent, but it can be given one, or it must be endured as what cannot be escaped.

Truth cannot be created, only exploited, concealed, manipulated.
Truth knows no friends or foes - your attitude towards it will only affect you.
Truth is good for the strong, and bad, or even evil, for the weak.
Truth confronts and shatters desire. It burst bubbles, splashes cold water on hot passion, rudely awakens dreamers from their dreams.
Truth stands in the way towards goals, when they are not in agreement with it.
Truth is indifferent to human woes.

Truth is the immutable past, made eternally present.
To get into it deeply, you must go back.
Truth is unforgiving and unforgettable.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:32 pm



Harmony of subjective/objective can manifest in a harmony of mind and body, where the mind is not so advanced in a body that is inept, and a body is not so advanced containing a mind that is totally inept.
We call the first nerdiness, we call the second stupidity.

A hyper-developed brain can also lead itself astray, when in its desire to compensate for it's body's insufficiency it exceeds the realm of the real, because the mind is not bound by time or space.
Ideas/ideals, noetic constructs are 'free' of external effects if they remain so.
This is part of the problem.
I attempt to solve it by reattaching words/symbols to reality, because words are mental constructs that ought to represent abstractions that were constructed directly from sensual stimuli, and not delusions, or fantasies that mix or invert sensual stimuli to construct abstractions with no external references.
Imagination not limited by external order, by nature, is fantasy, and when and if the mind prefers it, because it is convenient and pleasing, then it succumbs to delusion, and becomes Nihilistic.
Nihilism is, after all, a coping mechanism.


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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:03 pm

If one finds their mind wandering as the result of a misguided 'empathy' for everyone's imaginations, then they find the connecting of words to reality to be something peaceful. The strong who are convinced of their need to 'care for everyone' and treat all with kinship, find what is anathema to the people they're supposed to care about, is actually great relief to them. If the powerful won't abandon the idea of universal kindness without first addressing the fear of that kind, then they'll have no rest. Part of madness/genius. Civility and humility, manners, a God, enabled the geniuses to have some peace because the peasant class was not resentful. The 'social revolutionary' stokes the flames of revolution and finds pity within the upper classes, who, when they notice the lower classes, feel kindness for them. Or pity. The Bhagavad Gita serves as a decent guide for the upper class, who get consumed in kindness and pity only to forget the higher truths - patterns behind patterns - they fight for.

They resentful have the same impetus as do the ruthless.

Autistic 'extreme-manning' is the tool of the lower classes to declare the use of 'kinship' to be inconsistent on the part of the powerful if the powerful will not extend that kinship to the lowest animal, or themselves. If the powerful decide to treat kindly their own family, they're called "hypocrites" for not treating the sons and daughters of others with the exact same kindness. This kind of resentment is ruthless against the powerful, deserved only if the powerful are ruthless. To the 'social revolutionary', any power that is not theirs, is ruthless and they're victims of it.
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