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Arditezza

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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:18 am

phoneutria wrote:
I'm curious, under the light of this post... how would you define paternalism?

Are you asking me if I see leaders and heroes the same as paternalism? They are most certainly not the same thing.

A leader/hero leads by example and people follow him/them not by command but out of respect. Not out of laws, but out of understanding. He shows them the way things should be naturally by his actions and deeds, not by intention or ideology and not with any force.

Paternalism seeks to "protect" and "control" people without their choice or even knowledge by writing laws or using fear/coersion.

Clearly you can understand the difference? Or am I asking too much to get there by using reason instead of unreason?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:31 am

phoneutria wrote:
Which religion, all of them? Was there no "paternalism" before religion?

Most nature based spirituality is not really religion as it has no serious order or power structure that comes from a power outside of nature itself. I don't consider that a religion but a spiritual choice, unless of course you are indoctrinated into at a young age and are taught to believe what your parents beliefs are. Buddhism that does not involve ancestor worship or ritual behavior probably does not qualify either because it is more ideology/spirituality based unless it is indoctrinated by the parents.

Most honest spirituality comes to an individual by a natural path through learning and experience.

All organized monotheistic religions are paternalistic by their very nature.

I don't know if there was paternalism before religion, but I suspect that there was. I did not say that all paternalism was religion based.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:59 am

Arditezza wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
I'm curious, under the light of this post... how would you define paternalism?

Are you asking me if I see leaders and heroes the same as paternalism?  They are most certainly not the same thing.

A leader/hero leads by example and people follow him/them not by command but out of respect.  Not out of laws, but out of understanding.  He shows them the way things should be naturally by his actions and deeds, not by intention or ideology and not with any force.

Paternalism seeks to "protect" and "control" people without their choice or even knowledge by writing laws or using fear/coersion.

Clearly you can understand the difference?  Or am I asking too much to get there by using reason instead of unreason?

First off, untwist the panties, please. I am a nice little lady, I promise.
The reason I asked is because you just got here and if you are going to be using a term in nearly every post on the subject of feminism, it is best you define it. I do not know what you meant by it. At first I thought you meant patriarchy as feminists use the term. My impression that this is what you meant was encouraged by your first posts, in which you said for example that little girls are taught to dream about being monogamous.
Now that you've stated that you like being treated as a woman by a man who you admire and to whom you've given two sons, you do not seem all that against "monogamy as a construct"

Clearly you can now understand my confusion, and my most polite request for clarification?

It seems to me that what you call paternalism is what is commonly referred to on this forum as "the institution".
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:07 am

Anyway I guess it's welcome home for you, sweet cakes.
Somebody make this girl green asap.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:23 pm

phoneutria wrote:
perpetualburn wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
perpetualburn wrote:

Be careful not to project what isn't there "imbesil"

Are you going to make the case that this forum is not a lair of nietzscheans... you, from the nietzsche forum old guard?

What's a Nietzschean?

Ask Lyssa, she's the expert.

So if you don't know, how can you ask the above question? Do you enjoy having other people correct your bad logic, are you just unaware of it, or is this how you troll? It's like you pretend to be ignorant (at the right time, back away at the right time) while simultaneously participating in arguments so you can appear like you're acting in good faith. You don't want to be seen as blatantly trolling but for whatever reason you still need to socialize in philosophy forums so you "try" to be more engaging once in a while, you "help" out. And you can always say the whole experience is just casual(a "hobby") to avoid any sort of responsibility.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:31 pm

Your refused to answer my questions, I am behaving in reciprocity.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:35 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Your refused to answer my questions, I am behaving in reciprocity.

negative
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:39 pm

perpetualburn wrote:

Quote :

Now that you've answered for yourself, would you care to speak on behalf of your sex?

I'm not speaking on behalf of all men.

Certainly you can throw me a bone... isn't this a philosophy forum?

Quote :

Quote :

So you think that in order to allow man's instinct to fuck everything that moves, which is natural, to persist without causing harm to women, we must inhibit woman's instinct to flaunt, which is also natural.
Which must also mean that you equate the harm of being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants to the harm or having one's body physically violated.
Which leaves us with the options of letting all instincts run free, and let women carry knives, let men rape and let women stab; inhibit all instincts and let not men rape and let not women flaunt, burqas are in fashion I hear; let men rape women in burqas; or what we have now.

Now you've gone off the deep end and are drawing wild conclusions that don't follow from what I've said. We're not in the jungle cities of Brazil here. Almost like you enjoy reading into some oppressive conservatism so you can overreact.


If my conclusions don't follow, would you correct me?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:42 pm

I don't think you're aware of what you're doing, if you are then you're wasting your own time too. But people like to play with trolls so good luck. I should waste my time correcting an obvious departure from logic?... so you can just keep doing the same thing over and over again and waste more of my time? Let someone else use you for whatever purpose they have.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:05 pm

Specifically, do you equate the harm of being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants to the harm or having one's body physically violated?

It was you who brought to our attention that men might be getting harmed too, so by golly, let's hear your argument.

Edit: here, I'll even add your quote.

pb wrote:
It might be a good idea to define "harm" though to avoid further confusion. Harm can be the leveling of the instincts through the repetitive reinforcement of popular sentiments constantly "reborn" through association with nauseating images that depend on and demand re-approval.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:34 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Specifically, do you equate the harm of being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants to the harm or having one's body physically violated?

It was you who brought to our attention that men might be getting harmed too, so by golly, let's hear your argument.

Edit: here, I'll even add your quote.

pb wrote:
It might be a good idea to define "harm" though to avoid further confusion.  Harm can be the leveling of the instincts through the repetitive reinforcement of popular sentiments constantly "reborn" through association with nauseating images that depend on and demand re-approval.

The harm of a genetic death.
Funny how there is no human right for reproduction but there is for mostly everything else.
You feed me, you clean me, you cure me, you protect me, you entertain me, you humor me, you listen to me, you do everything to keep me on life support...but the joy of producing life is too much...

Rape for me is more than just the sexual act, I would kidnap the female and seperate her from the modern world and take responsibility for her well being until the stockholm syndrome sets in and she accepts her fate...

I might be too honest, dumb, and a coward to be able to flawlessly seduce a female (mind rape her) but I'll be damned if I allow my honesty to be the end of me.

Don't like it? Kill me.
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perpetualburn

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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:53 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Specifically, do you equate the harm of being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants to the harm or having one's body physically violated?

It was you who brought to our attention that men might be getting harmed too, so by golly, let's hear your argument.

Edit: here, I'll even add your quote.

pb wrote:
It might be a good idea to define "harm" though to avoid further confusion. Harm can be the leveling of the instincts through the repetitive reinforcement of popular sentiments constantly "reborn" through association with nauseating images that depend on and demand re-approval.

Who said anything about "being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants"..How does that follow from what I said? Is that the position you think I have? What is a woman's priority? You don't think men are getting harmed? What do you think would be harm to men?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:04 pm

How many pages of "you answer it" "no you answer it" do we have to go through until you substantiate your own argument?

perpetualburn wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
Specifically, do you equate the harm of being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants to the harm or having one's body physically violated?

It was you who brought to our attention that men might be getting harmed too, so by golly, let's hear your argument.

Edit: here, I'll even add your quote.

pb wrote:
It might be a good idea to define "harm" though to avoid further confusion.  Harm can be the leveling of the instincts through the repetitive reinforcement of popular sentiments constantly "reborn" through association with nauseating images that depend on and demand re-approval.

Who said anything about "being forced to keep one's dick in one's pants"..How does that follow from what I said?  Is that the position you think I have?

"... the leveling of the instincts..."

Quote :
What is a woman's priority?

Would you be more specific with your question? I'd say that any living organism's priority is to remain alive.

Quote :
You don't think men are getting harmed?

That's not for me to answer. A man's psychological/emotional construct is a foreign land to me, I can only speculate. I'm asking you!

Quote :
What do you think would be harm to men?

Can you answer that, since you are the one who offered that as a possibility?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:23 pm

phoneutria wrote:
How many pages of "you answer it" "no you answer it" do we have to go through until you substantiate your own argument?

Until I substantiate my argument?... now the onus is on me after you've shown an unwillingness to own up to your own lack of logic?  Ha!

Quote :
"... the leveling of the instincts..."

What's that mean to you?

Quote :

That's not for me to answer. A man's psychological/emotional construct is a foreign land to me, I can only speculate. I'm asking you!

Given this new information then, what's YOUR priority in relation to man.   If a man gives you an answer you don't like, then do you continue to speculate?  And is speculating always "harmless"?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:26 pm

The rule being...all options are open, unless the weak find an option restricts their options.

Females?
Free to "express their sexuality", as they have a "right" to, without fear.
Like little girls, careless, carefree, fearless.

Males?
Ewwww...uuuummmm, things get tricky here.
They have to curb their sexuality, keep it tied up, and adapt it to the feminine ways.

Do not cat-call...wear a nice low cut, shirt, over some tight jeans...that show your bulge(s).
Then strut your stuff down the street, frowning at any ugly chick that might look your way, telling them...
"I wore this because it makes me feel good, not for you to gawk, missy".

And if a man wants to wear some hot-pants, and get drunk at a gay bar, why should be expect to wake up the next morning with his underwear around his ankles, some sticky shit on his butt-crack, and an ache around his a-hole?

Let's train wolves to be vegetarians...and love one another.
Open up the forests to the children, like god intended them to be.

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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:36 pm

That might be due to the fact that for females, expressing sexuality does not involve giving someone stitches somewhere wur the sun don't shahne.

You do realize that. Sex is not prohibited by law. Violence is.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:41 pm

Feminists...
Transferring protective power and their total slavish commitments, shaky as these might be, from the biological male, to the ideological male - from genetics to memetics.

In comparison to the idea(l) abstracted alpha, institution, now taking care of her, and fucking her mentally, no man can live-up to, and no daddy knows better.

Women woke up and realized the ideal male had no real cock...no embrace, no skin and bones.
So, they decides to go for eugenically transforming the biological male into another woman, with a larger clitoris...and still keep the abstracted male as the big daddy, to run to for guidance - googling works - and protection (911), and being a good daddy to their children (edumucation, and institutionalization, just turn on the screen).

Now, they can strut their stuff, without a caaaaaare ni the world...men falling aside, cowering because she's "an independent woman" hear her roaaaaarrrrrr!!!, and fake men are intimidated, whereas "real men" the new real, serve and satisfy.
Human dildos.

Take fear and severity out of the formula, and you have a baby-game...all innocent and passive-aggressive fun.
Women do not hurt you, they simply destroy you.

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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:59 am

Impulso Oscuro wrote:
Rape for me is more than just the sexual act, I would kidnap the female and seperate her from the modern world and take responsibility for her well being until the stockholm syndrome sets in and she accepts her fate...

Stockholm Syndrome sounds rather cold.
It is a kind of love - and I mean that.
Words are a part of a magicians' arsenal.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:55 am

Anfang wrote:
Impulso Oscuro wrote:
Rape for me is more than just the sexual act, I would kidnap the female and seperate her from the modern world and take responsibility for her well being until the stockholm syndrome sets in and she accepts her fate...

Stockholm Syndrome sounds rather cold.
It is a kind of love - and I mean that.
Words are a part of a magicians' arsenal.

Love being a survivial strategy. In the case of stockholm syndrome, captive begins to relate with captor in an effort to cope with circumstantial pressures, where self-awareness or psychology is influenced in response as adaptive changes occur on a subconscious and unconscious level, such as brain chemistry alterations.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:09 am

The fight or flight or .... ..love response.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:21 am

Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:32 am

Interesting thread, the fact though can not be overlooked that modern laws do not do anything but protect the rapist.   It throws them in a cage where they receive the services of clothing, feeding and education at the expense of the victims.  

Satyr wrote:
Arditezza wrote:

Goethe wrote. That is an action.  

Ah, so thinking and writing it down IS an action.
I gotcha.

We can not call the act of writing down a thought an action merely because one is moving ones hands or expressing an ideal.  Else we could call the baby in the cradle active for rattling their toys.  It was not that Goethe was active because he wrote, but because his life was active he found it necessary to write. Had he merely been a writer of ideals, Goethe could never have produced anything of any great value.  It is rather what Goethe did while not writing that was significant and led to him being productive even while he was at leisure.  This is that state of unlimited activity which harmonizes the mind with the body.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:06 pm

Rape culture is feminist culture.

The mere possibility of rape demonstrates that society and law favors woman over man. A woman can receive sex anytime, whereas a man must "earn the consent" of a woman. The opposite is not true. A woman cannot rape a man. Therefore, the "rights", privileges, entitlements, and protections of sex apply to women, not men. This leads to female privilege, women feeling and acting entitled over men, specifically through the gender identity.

Being born a female "earns the right" of protection from male sexual advance.

But what about the male? Why doesn't society put his desires and needs, for reproduction, first? Why does society cater to the female, but not the male? These questions are too taboo to ask on other forums, and I've tried engaging such discussions before to no avail. People do not approach rape rationally and objectively, but instead, violently reassert the status quo and represent social law. Females particularly have an instinctive, reflexive aversion against "Pro Rape", or the mere possibility that a male's sexual desire ought to precede a female's aversion.

Society is favoritism, of female over male. Thus society places a higher value on women, over men. This is the leading cause of the "MRA" or "MGTOW" movements, where males have no place left to go in society, without running into this problem. Males must always "beg the consent" of females, who usually are, pieces of rotten shit anyway. And that destroys male pride, that a male must be weary and careful of any female, no matter how lowly, stupid, and ugly she is. It doesn't matter though. Because men rape beautiful women, not ugly women.

This point leads to another. Not only is it impossible for a woman to "rape" a man, it is also impossible for men to rape ugly women. Because rape is one of the largest risks for a male in his life, as are other crimes. So men tend not to rape "down", but up. It's the difference of robbing $10 or $100,000. It's more difficult to steal one hundred thousand dollars than ten. People will overlook theft of ten dollars. They will not overlook theft of a large sum. So too will society disallow men to rape beautiful women, of which, only they are important from the start.

So society revolves around beautiful women, not ugly women, and not men. And specifically, it revolves around this protection against rape. Therefore, society truly revolves around the "consent of beautiful women", to have sex at all. You will see now that society does not cater to ugly women, nor to men. Society caters to beautiful women, for specific reasons.

What is being raped, when rape occurs? This question exposes the innate value of sex and reproduction, which is very high. Society attempts to monopolize and control this value, leading to the accusation and charge of rape. Society, represented by beautiful women, levels an attack against all men, and male sexuality, that a male must deny his own wants and needs, and put the wants and needs of beautiful women above himself. Most males, the vast majority, either buy into this premise outright, or pretend to, throughout life in civilization. It's rarest though that men see the deception and social mechanic for what it is.

"Rape" is population control, keeping a majority of men out of competition for the most beautiful types of women. Because, as I mentioned, "rape" matters most with respect to the highest value (most beautiful) woman. Nobody really cares if an ugly woman is raped, or simply, cares less. Likewise, nobody cares when a man is "raped", for example, by other perverted, faggot males in a federal penitentiary. It only matters when the "consent" of a very beautiful woman, or a young girl (below age 16), is raped.


Now, there are two mainline definitions of rape. The first, most classical and antiquated definition, which I've always held, is penetrating the hymen of a young girl (below age 16) without her father's consent. That was "Rape" in previous, european eras. Basically if a girl had no father, a bastard child, then she had no real protection against "Rape". And this is actually still somewhat true today. The definition of rape, and its accusation, used to be linked directly to Paternalism and pride of a family. If a family's daughters were raped, then this demonstrated a severe loss of pride and honor of a family. This is the reason why some moslem families, in islamic countries, kill their own daughters. Because they blame the daughter, the female for the rape, as well as the loss of pride and honor of the family. Rape is shameful. A raped young girl brings shame upon her family.

This is also the reason why many raped girls commit suicide.


However, now that feminism has run its course, and paternalism is deconstructed in the united states, "Rape" has moved definitions (newspeak) from the antiquated definition to a Modernist definition. Now, today, rape means "sexual relations with any female, without her consent".

I'd go more in depth here, but I want to see how my points influence this thread first. I'll engage this topic if there are actually great responses, otherwise, it's a lost cause and waste of my time to discuss such an interesting, provocative topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:52 pm

phoneutria wrote:

First off, untwist the panties, please. I am a nice little lady, I promise.
The reason I asked is because you just got here and if you are going to be using a term in nearly every post on the subject of feminism, it is best you define it. I do not know what you meant by it. At first I thought  you meant patriarchy as feminists use the term. My impression that this is what you meant was encouraged by your first posts, in which you said for example that little girls are taught to dream about being monogamous.
Now that you've stated that you like being treated as a woman by a man who you admire and to whom you've given two sons, you do not seem all that against "monogamy as a construct"

Clearly you can now understand my confusion, and my most polite request for clarification?

It seems to me that what you call paternalism is what is commonly referred to on this forum as "the institution".

It's cute that you think I was upset in any way.  Maybe hopeful projection about my panties?  

I was just responding to your request that I define something you clearly don't have a grasp of.  I understand your frustration at my posts, it must be difficult to have not read much material and then try to talk about it.  

Perhaps this entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy would be of help to you;
(sorry I can't post links yet) plato.stanford.edu/entries/paternalism/

There are plenty of people who write about it of course, noteably; Joel Feinberg, John Stuart Mill, Weber and Coons, Arneson and DeMarneffe and more recently Thaddeus Pope.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:01 pm

Ephemeron wrote:

We can not call the act of writing down a thought an action merely because one is moving ones hands or expressing an ideal.  Else we could call the baby in the cradle active for rattling their toys.  It was not that Goethe was active because he wrote, but because his life was active he found it necessary to write. Had he merely been a writer of ideals, Goethe could never have produced anything of any great value.  It is rather what Goethe did while not writing that was significant and led to him being productive even while he was at leisure.  This is that state of unlimited activity which harmonizes the mind with the body.

I should have been more clear, thanks for pointing that out. What I meant to say is that people who are inspired and act on inspiration.  Even when they fail, unless it causes harm to others then it becomes questionable whether their inspiration was a noble one or not.

Many racists call Hitler a hero for standing up for his own race, for attempting to keep it pure. Not saying that I agree mind you, but just pointing out where inspiration and action can be an influence on who someone chooses as a hero or not.


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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:24 pm

Anfang wrote:
The fight or flight or .... ..love response.

I'll add to this that the abuse of the soma aspect is the downfall of every living creature - maybe not today but eventually.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:32 pm

Anfang wrote:

I already told you twice in different ways that it is not some immediate effect but would be a development. And we see this development today. "Rape culture" - a.k.a. "I didn't consent last night, eh, I think I didn't - my roommate said it was totally rape when I told her about how dissatisfying last night's fuck was for me."
Well, let me go ahead and join you on stating that is bullshit.
Personal responsibility, consequences, etc.
There shouldn't be specific laws for rape. We already have assault and battery, and those suit us just fine.
If you got raped, certainly you would be made to submit to a medical exam so that the police report can record what has been done to you. If a medical exam shows that you've suffered no violence, then go home lady.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:17 pm

Arditezza wrote:

It's cute that you think I was upset in any way.  Maybe hopeful projection about my panties?  

No dearie, not upset. Bitchy without provocation.
I do try and make a good show of my manners even when in disagreement with others. A product of my upbringing. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you are not a bleeding gash, you just needed to pull out a creeper Wink

But, hey, bleeding gash is fine with me too. I've got some cotton ponies in a drawer somewhere. I'll get you a towel too just in case the bleeding gets too heavy. We don't want any of that to end up on the couch now do we?

Quote :

I was just responding to your request that I define something you clearly don't have a grasp of.  I understand your frustration at my posts, it must be difficult to have not read much material and then try to talk about it.  

What I can grasp is irrelevant. I explained in my previous post how going into a thread called "Feminism" and making your very first post containing a criticism of monogamy and the word paternalism is aching to not only to be mistaken for a feminazi, but also a dumb one.

Thank you for the clarification in your previous post though, toots. All I needed to know is that you do not employ the term paternalism in the same way modern feminists employ the term patriarchy.
Go on your merry way, I shall bother you no longer.

Quote :

Perhaps this entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy would be of help to you;
(sorry I can't post links yet) plato.stanford.edu/entries/paternalism/

There are plenty of people who write about it of course, noteably; Joel Feinberg, John Stuart Mill, Weber and Coons, Arneson and DeMarneffe and more recently Thaddeus Pope.

You have The Google on your computer?! Me too!
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:15 pm

Lyssa wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
Satyr wrote:
Rape for a man, would be devastating.
It would shatter his masculine ego.

Rape for a woman is not devastating, if she refrains from dramatizing it and playing the eternal victim, exploiting it to receive attention, and to be pitied.
She is made to receive penis, and if she is not abused, severely, no harm is done to her.
But, where it does challenge her ego is in her role as genetic and memetic filter.
It usurps this natural role, and, as a consequence, her sexual power of choice.
It diminishes her value, because for an average woman sex and relationships are where she finds the only value she can have.

Giving herself to a man, as a means towards his end, she finds self-esteem.
Take this choice away from her, and she feels violated.

Paternalism also violates this role.

Lyssa, dear, would you grant us your opinion on this post?

Is there some part you disagree with in his saying rape is devastating to a woman as it takes away her natural selective role? Of course it does harm in leaving her to deal with the procreated consequences of it.

I don't approve of rape as some path or philosophical ideology as you know from my comment to the clown,, "might is right" - rape, plunder, pillage has occured throughout pagan pre-moral history; but that only exhibits the essence of a male, and not a man. Higher the discrimination and development of personhood, then monogamy emerges as a discriminate choice. As I've already said elsewhere, rape and plunder have occured among the Vikings, for example, but these were Male excursions, not Manly ones.
When you rape a female, you only exhibit you are a Male [a distinction even animals have],, you don't prove you are a Man, an individual with a personality.
These transgressions too were in the perspective women were seen by the Vikings as wealth like cattle or goddesses to be appropriated as proper-ty, not powerless f--- toys like in today's times. There was a difference between then and now, in I.E. history anyway.

While I do certainly believe that a real man would NEVER rape another woman and that individuality/personality is great, it would be too rudimentary or simplistic to just define a man as " one who has a personality ". Think about it like this: A guy may be able to make you laugh, smile, think, etc - he may have an amazing ability to converse and catch people's attention, but what if a group of thugs came into the premise and started firing off their guns, and the guy that was charming everyone in the room, all of a sudden, started to scream and shutter? Would he still be considered " manly " according to you? And lets say that the guy, who nobody paid any attention to, the more reserved guy, took action into his own hands and subdued the thugs? Would he be consider " unmanly " to you, because he didn't possess as much charisma or personality as the converser? I think in order to define " masculinity " or " manhood", we need to take into consideration ALL of the variables. To me, a real man is one who has integrity and strength of character, not one who simply has the ability to entertain me -intellectually or otherwise.


Last edited by Zara on Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:19 pm

I would think that lyssa meant more by "personality" than the ability to entertain.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:33 pm

phoneutria wrote:
I would think that lyssa meant more by "personality" than the ability to entertain.

I certainly hope so...lol. It seemed like she meant " personality ", like a charmer, but even rapists can be charmers. Actually, lots of serial-killers and rapists WERE charming and had personality. Case in point: Ted Bundy.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:06 pm

In Beowulf, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opposes the male gaze on her, as a violence, 'rape' and male-appropriation...

Her rebellion is her refusal to be seen. Much like Artemis who punishes Orion for 'merely' spying on her.

So what is rape and what is harm? Should men who stare be booked for raping now?

Feminist pathos is a male invention in the first place.

Phoneutria, when did you become a feminist? And why do you care about harm, when you can orgasm back at your rapists?

Attend to the other questions later.

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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:22 pm

Lyssa wrote:
In Beowulf, Thryth or Modthryth opposes the male gaze on her, as a violence, 'rape' and male-appropriation...

Her rebellion is her refusal to be seen. Much like Artemis who punishes Orion for 'merely' spying on her.

So what is rape and what is harm? Should men who stare be booked for raping now?

Feminist pathos is a male invention in the first place.

phoneutria wrote:

There shouldn't be specific laws for rape. We already have assault and battery, and those suit us just fine.
If you got raped, certainly you would be made to submit to a medical exam so that the police report can record what has been done to you. If a medical exam shows that you've suffered no violence, then go home lady.

lyssa wrote:

Phoneutria, when did you become a feminist?

Citation needed.

Quote :

And why do you care about harm, when you can orgasm back at your rapists?

When life gives you lemons, you twist it into dry-vermouth and stir it... not shake it Wink
But that is quite far from saying that martinis are my favorite drink, isn't it, dear?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:35 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
In Beowulf, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] opposes the male gaze on her, as a violence, 'rape' and male-appropriation...

Her rebellion is her refusal to be seen. Much like Artemis who punishes Orion for 'merely' spying on her.

So what is rape and what is harm? Should men who stare be booked for raping now?

Feminist pathos is a male invention in the first place.

phoneutria wrote:

There shouldn't be specific laws for rape. We already have assault and battery, and those suit us just fine.
If you got raped, certainly you would be made to submit to a medical exam so that the police report can record what has been done to you. If a medical exam shows that you've suffered no violence, then go home lady.


Satyr wrote:
"Rape for a man, would be devastating.
It would shatter his masculine ego.

Rape for a woman is not devastating, if she refrains from dramatizing it and playing the eternal victim, exploiting it to receive attention, and to be pitied.
She is made to receive penis, and if she is not abused, severely, no harm is done to her.
But, where it does challenge her ego is in her role as genetic and memetic filter.
It usurps this natural role, and, as a consequence, her sexual power of choice.
It diminishes her value, because for an average woman sex and relationships are where she finds the only value she can have.

Giving herself to a man, as a means towards his end, she finds self-esteem.
Take this choice away from her, and she feels violated.

Paternalism also violates this role."

-------------


Quote :
lyssa wrote:

Phoneutria, when did you become a feminist?

Citation needed.

Phoneutria wrote:
Are men and women the same? Is it honest for you to speak on behalf of women?

---------------------


Quote :

Quote :

And why do you care about harm, when you can orgasm back at your rapists?

When life gives you lemons, you twist it into dry-vermouth and stir it... not shake it Wink
But that is quite far from saying that martinis are my favorite drink, isn't it, dear?


And so, why doesn't the same logic work when someone says they do not favour or have to approve for something, for it to emerge or occur in reality?
Pre-modern examples only show paternalism simply shifted from Xt. to the System.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:55 pm

Lyssa wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
In Beowulf, Thryth or Modthryth opposes the male gaze on her, as a violence, 'rape' and male-appropriation...

Her rebellion is her refusal to be seen. Much like Artemis who punishes Orion for 'merely' spying on her.

So what is rape and what is harm? Should men who stare be booked for raping now?

Feminist pathos is a male invention in the first place.

phoneutria wrote:

There shouldn't be specific laws for rape. We already have assault and battery, and those suit us just fine.
If you got raped, certainly you would be made to submit to a medical exam so that the police report can record what has been done to you. If a medical exam shows that you've suffered no violence, then go home lady.


Satyr wrote:
"Rape for a man, would be devastating.
It would shatter his masculine ego.

Rape for a woman is not devastating, if she refrains from dramatizing it and playing the eternal victim, exploiting it to receive attention, and to be pitied.
She is made to receive penis, and if she is not abused, severely, no harm is done to her.
But, where it does challenge her ego is in her role as genetic and memetic filter.
It usurps this natural role, and, as a consequence, her sexual power of choice.
It diminishes her value, because for an average woman sex and relationships are where she finds the only value she can have.

Giving herself to a man, as a means towards his end, she finds self-esteem.
Take this choice away from her, and she feels violated.

Paternalism also violates this role."


I disagree only in the matter that rape for women is devastating.

However, I do not think that matters of ego, honor, and shame should be regulated by law.

-------------

Quote :

Quote :
lyssa wrote:

Phoneutria, when did you become a feminist?

Citation needed.

Phoneutria wrote:
Are men and women the same? Is it honest for you to speak on behalf of women?

Implying that men and women are different makes me a feminist exactly how?

---------------------

Quote :

Quote :

When life gives you lemons, you twist it into dry-vermouth and stir it... not shake it Wink
But that is quite far from saying that martinis are my favorite drink, isn't it, dear?

And so, why doesn't the same logic work when someone says they do not favour or have to approve for something, for it to emerge or occur in reality?
Pre-modern examples only show paternalism simply shifted from Xt. to the System.

The same logic does apply. However this isn't a discussion of what is, more than one of what ought to be. Or is it?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:10 pm

Arditezza wrote:
Satyr wrote:

Dear....sex and emotions do not alter the essence of the other.
If I fucked a chimp it would not change what a chimp is.
If I love something it does not alter it, in reality.  
My personal feelings do not change reality.

See, the problem is the idea of ownership introduced by another word, Marriage in all our complex societal constructs.

As little girls we are taught to dream of being in a monogamous, one partner relationship where sex is a sacred bond between two people.

It's hogwash.  It's a paternal structure to ensure the subservience of the female form.

Because as Satyr stated.  Men have always feared the bearer of life for her ability to do what they cannot. Her sexuality and power drives men to want to be the king of the pile and please her to the point of procreation.

But man doesn't want to please her just so he can procreate with her(if he even wants to please her at all).  And he doesn't fear her because she can do what he can not.  If anything, it's the other way around.

Quote :

As a society, we see this behaviour as barbaric and animalistic when if you look at it logically and pragmatically, a lot of problems could be solved if women stopped believing that their cunts were some sort of magical sacred animal that needed to be carefully guarded and tended only for their mate.

We've gone so far as writing laws protecting weaker men from having their mates stolen by the stronger and smarter of the male breed, and thereby weakened the entire species because we really want to believe that relationships are sacred bonds and that sex is sacred.  Sex is sex. It's not magical or sacred. If a woman could learn that you can't be harmed by sex (precluding violence and abuse mind you) it doesn't take away your security or virtue.  If they learned to be accepting f what they are biologically, they could potentially screw their way to the strongest and smartest of the breed by comparison and practice.

So sex isn't sacred but women(if they "learned" this) could what, improve the species by mating with the best males(without any hangups)?  And then what?  What of the children of those pairings?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:53 pm

If women learned that sex wasn't taboo or sacred, they could lie down with any number of them and pick the one that was best of the lot.

If you think that women couldn't choose or figure out some kind of birth control you are fooling yourself. Even in old times they used herb and seed concoctions, tinctures and in food/drink that would prevent unwanted pregnancy. That plus knowing when you are most fertile and when your cycle was at the most indicated for not sowing seed.

There were also plenty of things to take after if you found yourself with child.

Women are for more aware than you think.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:58 pm

By best man, then, you mean the best in the sack?
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:02 pm

That as well as having the most admirable physique to you, as well as the sharpest mind and the the best prick, sure. Being able to provide for you would also be important, the way he dressed and carried himself.  The discussions you'd have before and after sex when you were both exposed and intimate and honest. Nothing to hide.

There are plenty of reasons to get that close to a man to better understand and admire him and let him admire you.

If you can't tell a man by the way he makes love to you, then you are doing something wrong or aren't open enough to figuring it all out.
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PostSubject: Re: Rape Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:03 pm

Sex is natural.
Females use it to create and to maintain social alliances.

When Paternalism is destroyed, offering all access to the gene-pool males, in their majority, are excluded. 
The alpha is not the institution, protecting females, and preserving their sexual "right", their choice. 

The beta males, all biological males, are forces into the options of behaving like females, attracting, seducing, suing feminine ways.
Doormat, the nice guy, where they turn themselves into docile servants to the female so as to hope for a bit of coitus, at some point.
Rape, as those excluded and that cannot adapt are left with no option...or becoming female, to the institutional male, so as to become symbolic representations of its masculinity, acquiring its monopolized privileges.

Most choose the first option, and second. They behave,as females, sexually., Dressing, seducing, enticing, from afar...and so on. Cosmetics, surgery, clothing, being sensitive, useful, tolerant and so on.

Funny, the gene/meme discrepancy then makes females wonder:
"Where have all the 'REAL' men gone?"  

It's comedic.

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