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 Beyond Pleasure and Pain

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Beyond Pleasure and Pain  Empty
PostSubject: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptySun Jun 28, 2015 6:09 pm

In tribute to BDSM ( femdom )

-----------

What does it take to be a dominatrix?

There are many posers out there, just looking to make a quick buck.

It's very rare to find a genuine dominatrix, a woman who has innate power and takes supreme delight in disciplining others.

So, getting back to the question: what does it take to be a dominatrix?

A dominatrix must have self-discipline, before she can discipline others.

This self-discipline is noticeable to other sub missives; it emanates a powerful vibe that makes others want to be used and abused by Her.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptySun Jun 28, 2015 9:24 pm

"The psychology of the orgy as an overflowing feeling of life and energy within which even pain acts as a stimulus provided me with the key to the concept of the tragic feeling ...

beyond pity and terror, to realise in oneself the eternal joy of becoming – that joy which also encompasses joy in destruction."

- Nietzsche

I believe that BDSM and N. philosophy have a lot in common.

N. was all about embracing life as it is, with all its pain and pleasure, its brutality and serenity.

Most people just want to embrace the positive, pleasant things in life and shun the painful/negative.

But with the BDSM sub-mentality, there is a Nietzchean affirmation associated with it: the acceptance of both pain and pleasure.

Pain acts as a stimulant.

The pain does not exceed the pleasure; they are both in harmony, producing a transcendental experience for the sub.

A place beyond pain and pleasure.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptySun Jun 28, 2015 9:49 pm

If the submissive is enduring the abundance of life, or the "harmony of pain and pleasure" then does it become the domineer?
Moreover, is the submissive's act of submission an actuated dominance due to being of lower order or is it to give the other who is of a lower order a sense of domination, in which latter case the posing submission is an act of dominance?

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyMon Jun 29, 2015 8:54 am

Supra-Aryanist wrote:
If the submissive is enduring the abundance of life, or the "harmony of pain and pleasure" then does it become the domineer?
Moreover, is the submissive's act of submission an actuated dominance due to being of lower order or is it to give the other who is of a lower order a sense of domination, in which latter case the posing submission is an act of dominance?

No, I wouldn't say that the submissive becomes the domineer; rather, I'd just say that sub is more Nietzschean than the dom.

The dom/master also is somewhat Nietzschean:

"The 'savage' (or, in moral terms, the evil man) is a return to nature."
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyMon Jun 29, 2015 7:19 pm

Submission to the whims of others isn't idem as relegating conscious instincts, reason, or second-hand, thereby embryonic, nature under primal instincts or first-hand, thereby developed, nature.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyMon Jun 29, 2015 7:59 pm

Supra-Aryanist wrote:
Submission to the whims of others isn't idem as relegating conscious instincts, reason, or second-hand, thereby embryonic, nature under primal instincts or first-hand, thereby developed, nature.

It's not submission to the whims of others; it's submission to a legitimate other.

Lys has an interesting take on it: that sexual masochism is the corollary of an austere asceticism - that even a dominatrix can become a submissive to herself and seek out a legitimate other to submit to.

According to her, this submission is the result of an overabundance of power, akin to a powerful warrior who seeks a legitimate challenge, competition.


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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 7:45 am

Supra-Aryanist wrote:
Submission to the whims of others isn't idem as relegating conscious instincts, reason, or second-hand, thereby embryonic, nature under primal instincts or first-hand, thereby developed, nature.

The Master and the Slave are a Type, not a quanta of power alone.

The 'Masters' of today, dominant are really slavish.

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 12:56 pm

Satyr wrote:
When roles are reversed and an effete male seeks this relationship of master/slave with a female, the intercourse becomes more of mother to son.
Passion, sexual tension, is present only if the female is masculine to a degree higher than the male. The sexual act may not be required, because of this role-reversal. It is playacting, or a non-reproductive act; an (inter)action of expending repressed libidinal energies: for the female her repressed masculine side, and for the male his repressed feminine side.
The male will respect the female because she can overpower him; he, purposefully, placing himself in a state where his natural physical superiority, if it is present, is reduced to a level the female can dominate.
She respecting him only as much as his absence, his non-participation, his refusal to handicap himself for her, will deny her the release she needs.

How superficial of you, Satyr, to automatically associate a male-sub with an effete male

Just because a male is in a submissive position to an alpha-female, that does not make him effete

And why is it mother-to-son? Is a male dom and female sub a father-to-daughter relationship?

There is no shame in finding powerful women to be erotic, in desiring to submit to them

That doesn't make one weak

Surrender is not always a weakness
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 1:30 pm

I wonder if Erik has really adopted this omega-male thinking borderline on homosexuality, or if he's just trolling.

An otherwise feminine female will never, ever, respect you after you had submitted yourself to her once and allowed her to make you a woman in relation to her.

Watch Basic Instinct and see what happens at the start to the guy who allowed himself to be tied up by a woman. It's metaphorical - you don't allow women to assume control over you, ESPECIALLY not during sex, because they will abuse it and lose all previous respect they had for you as a man.

A man will never submit to a woman. A male may, but a man, never.
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 1:35 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:
I wonder if Erik has really adopted this omega-male thinking borderline on homosexuality, or if he's just trolling.

An otherwise feminine female will never, ever, respect you after you had submitted yourself to her once and allowed her to make you a woman in relation to her.

Watch Basic Instinct and see what happens at the start to the guy who allowed himself to be tied up by a woman. It's metaphorical - you don't allow women to assume control over you, ESPECIALLY not during sex, because they will abuse it and lose all previous respect they had for you as a man.

A true man will never submit to a woman. A male may, but a man, never.

I'm referring to BDSM role-play --- it's within the context of the bedroom

Also, I'm a switch; I like to be the dom too, it's just that this thread is dedicated to female doms.
There is already a thread in tribute to male doms: " Surrender and Sexual Predation " created by Lyssa.

Outside of the bedroom, socially, I'm dominant.

Sure, one could say that the bedroom context is interconnected with day-to-day life; but not always.

Fundamentally, this is a consensual thing; I allow myself to be dominated. If I didn't want it, it wouldn't happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 1:42 pm

Slave4Lys wrote:
Satyr wrote:
When roles are reversed and an effete male seeks this relationship of master/slave with a female, the intercourse becomes more of mother to son.
Passion, sexual tension, is present only if the female is masculine to a degree higher than the male. The sexual act may not be required, because of this role-reversal. It is playacting, or a non-reproductive act; an (inter)action of expending repressed libidinal energies: for the female her repressed masculine side, and for the male his repressed feminine side.
The male will respect the female because she can overpower him; he, purposefully, placing himself in a state where his natural physical superiority, if it is present, is reduced to a level the female can dominate.
She respecting him only as much as his absence, his non-participation, his refusal to handicap himself for her, will deny her the release she needs.

How superficial of you, Satyr, to automatically associate a male-sub with an effete male

Just because a male is in a submissive position to an alpha-female, that does not make him effete

And why is it mother-to-son? Is a male dom and female sub a father-to-daughter relationship?

There is no shame in finding powerful women to be erotic, in desiring to submit to them

That doesn't make one weak

Surrender is not always a weakness

You have surpassed me....seek a new mentor.
Look higher.
You already have.

Might is Right.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 1:44 pm

And how much respect do you think a female will have for a male who allows himself to be slapped around and dominated by a woman?

Sex is the establishing of male-female roles, and you would be adopting the role of a female.

Indulge in whatever hedonistic pleasure you want, you can let her fuck you up the arse and then pretend to be socially dominant later on, for all I care.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 1:48 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:
And how much respect do you think a female will have for a male who allows himself to be slapped around and dominated by a woman?

Sex is the establishing of male-female roles, and you would be adopting the role of a female.

Indulge in whatever hedonistic pleasure you want, you can let her fuck you up the arse and then pretend to be socially dominant later on, for all I care.

Ha!

I have limits to what I allow to happen to me. No dildos or homo stuff involved.

What does it matter what other females think of me? If they don't like me for it, they can f-%k off.

An open-minded, intellectually versed woman would understand this whole thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 2:30 pm

Slave4Lys wrote:
Arbiter of Change wrote:
And how much respect do you think a female will have for a male who allows himself to be slapped around and dominated by a woman?

Sex is the establishing of male-female roles, and you would be adopting the role of a female.

Indulge in whatever hedonistic pleasure you want, you can let her fuck you up the arse and then pretend to be socially dominant later on, for all I care.

Ha!

I have limits to what I allow to happen to me. No dildos or homo stuff involved.

What does it matter what other females think of me? If they don't like me for it, they can f-%k off.

An open-minded, intellectually versed woman would understand this whole thing.
Then you have a different understanding of the word submission than I do.
A kind of pretense, hypocrisy, like the kind you have become known for on-line.
You know, faking it.

Perhaps I lack the right intellectual acumen to follow, and it's over my head, in which case you and that hypothetical intellectual female/dominatrix, with the correct understanding of submission, can eventually find each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 4:12 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:
And how much respect do you think a female will have for a male who allows himself to be slapped around and dominated by a woman?

Sex is the establishing of male-female roles, and you would be adopting the role of a female.

Indulge in whatever hedonistic pleasure you want, you can let her fuck you up the arse and then pretend to be socially dominant later on, for all I care.

While I dont entirely disagree with that, some women do not care for sex as a performance in the bedroom. A man does not have to wear an armour and role-play his role with suffocation. Likewise, playing your role that nature intended to be is also not an oppression from the partner's view, or a repression from the self's view.

Sometimes where there is no self-acceptance, man's projects his own vulnerability on the other, and turns it into the woman being ashamed of him, even if she were not.

Its about knowing yourself and also letting the other know you through trust from oneself with the other.

Aside:

Zizek wrote:
"The 'subjective destitution' involved in the position of the analyst may be illustrated by a story from the American antebellum South. In the whorehouses of old New Orleans, the black servant was not perceived as a person, so that the white couple of the prostitute and her client was not at all disturbed when the servant entered the room to deliver drinks - they simply went on with their copulation, since the servant's gaze did not count as the gaze of another person. And in a sense, it is the same with the analyst: we rid ourselves of all our shame when we talk to him, we are able to confide in him the innermost secrets of our loves and hatreds, although our relationship with him 'is entirely 'impersonal', lacking the intimacy of true friendship.

This dialectics of intimacy is in general extremely interesting: true sexual intimacy is not achieved when , in the moonlit darkness, my partner and I yield to sensual passion - I expose myself far more radically to my partner when I disclose the intimacy of my enjoyment to his or her gaze that maintains a distance towards me. Vulgarie loquentia, far greater trust in my partner is needed when I let him or her observe me during masturbation than when I perform the act of copulation with him or her. Perhaps this is why Brecht had a preference for non simultaneous orgasm: first you, so that I can observe you, and then you can observe me reaching my climax. . . . Trust is needed here, since I expose myself to the danger that in the eyes of the observing partner I shall all of a sudden become ridiculous - to an indifferent observer, the sexual act cannot but appear a meaningless repetition of mechanical gestures, accompanied by painful sighing. For the sexual act to appear ridiculous, it is enough to assume a Formanesque distance towards it - what I have in mind here is the procedure of 'extraneation' applied by Milos Forman in his early Czech films, the procedure that relies on the 'malevolent neutrality of the camera', Forman himself evoked the shift in our reception that occurs when, all of a sudden, the sound of a TV set fails due to some mechanical malfunction: the impassioned speech of a politician or the dazzling operat­ic aria changes into an absurd, comic twisting and waving of hands. . . .

Let us, however, return to the unique figure of the analyst. The analyst is also 'impersonal' in that he is absolutely responsible for the effects of his words. When the outcome of our action is the opposite of what we had in mind, we, ordinary people, each with his or her own limitations, have the right to say, 'Oh my God, this is not what I wanted!'; the analyst, on the contrary, is somebody who is never allowed to take refuge in saying 'This is not what I had in mind! '. For that reason the analytic discourse - social link - is something exceptional and extremely surprising. What is so unusual about it is not that it might well disappear; far more unusual is the fact that it emerged at all." [Metastases]

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"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 6:37 pm

Presumably, to Know Thyself within nature, as the sum of all nurturing, is a carte blanche, with no selection occurring in nature.
Everything is self-acceptance, and seeing self through another's eyes is always insecurity, if the seeing is negative.

Presumably, being female and male amounts to no more than being the same but playing a role nobody expects the other to play, which would include penetration and insemination.
Let's all become children, accepting each other as we are.

With no standard to go by, a woman is merely a passive observer, and not a critic, judging harshly.
We've all experienced this in bars, and pick-up clubs, trust me.

We can say that not giving-a-shit is a sign of power, of self-acceptance that requires no external validation, but this does not dismiss the evaluation itself from occurring.
A romantic ideal that woman accepts man the way he is, size doesn't matter, and nobody is being judged...ask your new buddy to explain it to you further.
He wanted open dissent, and here is his opening.
My cult is crumbling...all because of him and his brilliant expose.

The projection is always wrong, you see.
It automatically means "mistake" rooted in emotion and insecurity, turning empathy into a psychosis.
The truth is everyone should not care what the other thinks, because all value themselves....yes VO is genius, and in time will be acknowledged as a continuance of Nietzschean insight.
I feel privileged to have been present at its inception.

We can agree that there are unique exceptions, and I think I've mentioned one dealing with the above average, in intelligence, female, and her predicament, but to say that the norm is this world of no judgments and full acceptance of other as he accepts himself, if only he dares to show himself, is (c)rude...and I hate rude people.
If insecurity evolved it was because of judgment, and inferior/superior.
But...I may be wrong.
A Christian thing lingers in me. Original sin.
 
I can admit being wrong...now, because I no longer care about the consequences.
I'm taking my monster-suit off, puting on my human, all too human suit on.
The gig is up....

My every post has been from the perspective of an insecure boy, facing a world it could not deal with.
Time to let the strong ones take over and lead the way...for the children.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 8:01 pm

Did I or did I not say some women? I'm not arguing against the rule.

And its a presumption on your part that by Self-acceptance and vulnerability I meant something negative...

Was it not N. who called the genius fragile and the most sublimest machine?
I refered to men who cannot accept the beauty in them, and because they cannot, they think women must *also* see them in a negative light because they feel so.

Acceptance does not only stem from childlike indiscrimination, but is also and can also be a product of very mature discrimination beyond pain and pleasure which is the topic of this thread.

Exceptions thrive on the rule, and I did not argue against the rule.

I am not "buddies" with iambig retard... that's (c)rude and I hate rude people. And sure, KT is getting broken by a Xt. democrank. Nobody tell him this skit is in his honour. (ssshhhh)

"The projection is ALWAYS wrong"  vs.  "SOMETIMES where there is no self-acceptance."

There is Nietzsche in VO, but VO is not Nietzschean; it was spinoza and leibniz at its inception.. what it is now, who knows.

"to say that the norm is this world of no judgments"  VS.  "While I don't entirely disagree with that"

This is your gig; take it away. No question abt. it.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 8:20 pm

What's "VO"?

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 9:02 pm

Supra-Aryanist wrote:
What's "VO"?



I belive it refers to "Value Ontology" - I think I saw someone say that before. Youtubing it brings up this as the first video:






Apparently the author of this philosophy is "Fixed Cross" - someone who I remember was a member of this site. He seems to be at ILP now.

Googling it brings up this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 9:06 pm

Appreciated.
It just hit me a moment ago.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 9:26 pm

Satyr wrote:
Perhaps I lack the right intellectual acumen to follow, and it's over my head, in which case you and that hypothetical intellectual female/dominatrix, with the correct understanding of submission, can eventually find each other.

Most dominatrixes ( the genuine sadists ) are well-educated, esp. in sexual psychology.

I'm trying to keep this thread clean, as it's something I'm very interested in, so I'd appreciate if any extraneous posts/comments be made elsewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 10:16 pm

Supra-Aryanist wrote:
What's "VO"?

It's a well-kept secret. The next step in Nieatzchean philosophy.
Molecules, elements, (substance) attract what they value and create a self, or some complicated shit, like that, only a few can fully grasp.  

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Lyssa is downplaying it not admitting how advanced it is.
I, myself, am a friend of truth, and I embrace the truth of being surpassed.
The full truth is I've been regurgitating other thinkers and presenting their work as my own.

I don't fully comprehend any of it.
Now, that the "gig is up"...I can admit many things.
I am what I've always been: a front-man, and nothing more.
A pretender.
A hypocrite.
A Satyr.

Always will be.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 10:35 pm

Substance as the ultimate immutable: the irreducible causa sui?

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 10:43 pm

Shit, off topic.

About sexual psychology: it has been declared that cuckolding is the orientation of the superordinate or intellectual because only the emotionally overcome can reconcile the pain of allowing one's partner to fuck another man or a nigger. That said, at the same time, what is posited as unbearable for the cuck is the emotional, intellectual, or spiritual bond and subsequent connection that his partner and the cucker?(the other guy she fucks instead or under whom he has subverted himself) have superseding the physical contact.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyTue Jun 30, 2015 10:43 pm

Supra-Aryanist wrote:
Substance as the ultimate immutable: the irreducible causa sui?

Can't say...I did not understand it myself.
Too complex for me.

Positive/Negative, attracting what is valued to preserve self.
Will to Self?
Electron valuing the neutron, the neutron valuing the proton, hugging one another in self-hood...rock held together when elements value one another....you know philosophy shit.
Don't know more than that.
We'll find out in a century, or so, when the "Value Ontology for Dummies" pamphlet is published.  
Hopefully I'll be long dead by then. Won't have to endure the shame.

Only Lyssa and a few others in the sacred circle of Fixed trust, truly understood it.
A group of self-valuing, value-selfing elite.  
Maybe you can go and ask him.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyWed Jul 01, 2015 10:30 am

There is an interesting peculiarity commonly associated with BDSM male-subs:

Foot Fetish

Perhaps a Jungian-psycholgical manifestation of a servant archetype associated with Goddess worship.

The above makes sense, considering the nature of the BDSM

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There was an ancient Hellenic group of ascetics, who would literally castrate themselves for their female deity, become eunuchs in service to her

Modern day BDSM goddess worship can take on a similar nature, more so symbolically than literal, of course.

But that need to submit to a higher power, that we commonly notice in the religious, is prevalent in the submissive, in a very primal, raw form.

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Satyr
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Satyr

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyWed Jul 01, 2015 10:43 am

Interesting that you claim you want to submit to a strong, intelligent, female, a dominatrix, and yet set limits and rules for this submission to occur.
Not really a submission, but a ploy, to expose the ones you admire, and want o get close to.
You tried to seduce them suing your "brains", your "creativity" your "potential", but no nibbles.

If I were not so trusting and gullible I would say you've never stopped lying...not even to yourself.

Value Ontology at work...pulling to you what you value in yourself.
Gad that half-Jew is genius.

I would suggest a path-of-least-resistance...find the weakest one of these potential dominant females, before you advance up to the most dominant, the strongest, most genius.
Pussy attracts pussy.
They take notice when a woman is on your arm, or has a leash around your neck.

Start small before you go big.
Baby steps.  

That's how I got noticed.  
Baited them with my bullshit about Hellenism and nobility and copy-pasted google shit, putting it in my own words...and it worked.
well, for a while....eventually the smart ones will see through your bull, and you will be exposed...but you can enjoy the time you had.
We are both hedonists. it's all about the pleasure of the moment.
The memories.
The experiences.

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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyWed Jul 01, 2015 11:26 am

Satyr wrote:
Interesting that you claim you want to submit to a strong, intelligent, female, a dominatrix, and yet set limits and rules for this submission to occur.

What, did you think it was a norm that BDSM subs go out somewhere vulnerable and just wait for some passing dominatrix to bash them over the head and drag them to their dungeon?

That's not what I meant by submitting to a powerful woman.

It's called " role-play" for a reason, Satyr.



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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyWed Jul 01, 2015 11:40 am

Faking it, right?

I've been faking it for a long, looong, looooooooong time.
I've been pretending to be, how did you call me?...an "intellectual", standing behind others, repeating, parroting, regurgitating, when I had no understanding of anything I said, sexualizing everything, implying I'm an alpha-male, an "overman", an aristocrat, noble, intelligent.
I'm just an average, lonely, nobody with nothing to say that would get me acknowledged, respected...loved.
A failure.
I've dropped the masks...you try it.

Who do you want to be?
Who are you?

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Satyr
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Satyr

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 36827
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 58
Location : Hyperborea

Beyond Pleasure and Pain  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Beyond Pleasure and Pain Beyond Pleasure and Pain  EmptyWed Jul 01, 2015 12:00 pm

Since I'm spilling my guts...the reason I got divorced was because I found out she was pregnant with another man's baby.
I fell in love with the boy, though he's not mine.
Decided it was my only opportunity to have a son.
I adopted it as if he's my own.

You don't think a loser, like me would ever have a kid, do you?

I feel lighter...
Live Lightly...some guy on-line said that.
I claimed it as my own.

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