Know Thyself

Nothing in Excess
 
HomePortalFAQMemberlistSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Socrates and Socratic studies

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Socrates and Socratic studies Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:01 pm

(edit the typos later.)

Quote :
"In one of the first appearances of the Platonic Socrates, in Apology, Socrates asks hi s judges and audience to recall what his presence means for the Athenian city, and to consider whether he is “really the sort of per- son who would have been sent to this city as a gift from God” (dedostai). Socrates’ wish is to be remembered as a divine gift to a cit y that has declined and forgotten its noble origins. But what god an gift like this, this annoying gadfly who harasses a large and noble horse. This image of Socrates as gadfly makes him in to an attachment (proskeimenon) inflicted upon the self-indulgent cit y. Though Plato was careful not t o employ the word doron for “gift” in this context, his formulation  ten tou theou dosin, “god’s gift,” nevertheless recalls the epithet of Pandora in Works and Days, doron theon, “the gift of the gods.” Both texts, Hesiod’s Works and Days and Plato’s Apology, celebrate the c ensure of their protagonists by society, as well as the collective refusal to recognize the value of the gift these protagonists bring.

Nevertheless, the images of Pandora and Socrates are not compatible. The crux of the Hesiodic image of Pandora is the ambiguous nature of her gift. For Plato, condemnation of Socrates is indicative of society’s shortcomings. In other words, he presents Socrates as a gift that is misunderstood and misused.
That hostile, negative reception is not unconnected to an ambiguity in Socrates’ character and behaviour. His alleged care for his interlocutors’ souls often causes them embarrassment. His goodness, that is, assumes the form of an annoyance. His wisdom takes the form of professed ignorance. The city was alarmed by this restless nuisance and could hardly find any good in his provocations. Socrates, according to Plato, is a gift whose utility remained concealed from the majority of Athenians because they could not understand that his annoying behaviour was the essence of his usefulness.

Socrates’ duality is given its fullest elaboration in the Symposium, where the philosopher is portrayed as a seducer and a teacher of love. In searching for the literary sources of this new literary persona, we should make note of a striking connection between the figure of Socrates and Hesiod’s Pandora. Pandora might at first seem to offer only a negative model for the construction of the Socratic figure. Whereas she is known as the kalon kakon, the one whose exterior is beautiful and whose interior is evil, he is characterized by an unsightly exteriority and a beautiful inward goodness. She exemplifies the deceptiveness of appearance, while he represents the hidden nature of truth.

And yet an affinity between the philosopher and the first woman exists, in spite of these apparent differences. To begin with, it should be noted that their external appearances affect their viewers in the same manner: both the beautiful woman an d the ugly philosopher strike others with wonder. In the Symposium this effect is apparent when Alcibiades turns to look a t Socrates. As Alcibiades enters Agathon’s house, he is unaware of Socrates’ presence. He is drunk and wears a beautiful wreath made of fresh flowers and ribbons, with which, he announces, he w ill crown the cleverest and best-looking man ( 30e). He naturally turns to the handsome Agathon, the acclaimed winner of the festival. But then he suddenly notices Socrates and cries out:


[Good lord, what’s going on here? It’s Socrates! You’ve trapped me (katekeiso) again! You always do this to me—all of a sudden you’ll turn up out of nowhere where I least expect you!—Trans. Alexander Nehamas an d Paul Woodruff] (Symp. 213c)

Caught by surprise, Alcibiades once again experiences the erotic effect of the Socratic presence and accuses the latter of playing his old hunting game. How strange it must be to experience the same surprise, time after time, and at the hands of the same old acquaintance. And yet Alcibiades is shocked to see Socrates—so much so that he strips Agathon’s head of the ribbons he has bestowed on him and places them instead on Socrates, declaring his to be the most wonderful of heads, thaumaste kephale. In so doing, he not only dethrones Agathon by pronouncing Socrates the cleverest man on ear th, but unexpectedly calls the latter the most beautiful of men, kallistos, as well.

Alcibiades’ response to the sight of Socrates is surprising in many ways. First, it i s directed toward his physical and corporeal presence. What’s more, Alcibiades considers the philosopher’s physical appearance to be beautiful, and he assigns him a strong erotic appeal." [Vered Kenaan, Pandora's Senses]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:14 pm

Quote :
"I wish to think of Pandora’s role in Theogony as analogous to the role of Diotima in the Symposium. What has Diotima to do with Pandora? On th e face of things, these two feminine figures seem to be opposites. However, their roles in their respective texts contain interesting similar ities. The priestess from Mantinea is a great authority on th e mysteries of love. As such, she fills the role of an erotic apostle representing the genealogy and values of Eros. Pandora’s role can also be conceived of as apostolic in nature.

Since, as I argue, she descends from a specific family line, one pertaining to the genealogy of Eros,her presence embodies the concept of primordial Eros.Theogony’s Pandora marks a final stage in the evolution of the erotic principle that first emerged with the primordial Eros and continued with the birth of Aphrodite. Pan- dora’s affiliation with the cosmic and divine family of Eros and Aphrodite is a manifestation of Eros in the human realm.This is where Pandora’s illuminating force is similar to the didactic role of Diotima. Nevertheless, Pandora and Diotima have distinct ways of illustrating the erotic.

Diotima’s is an outsider’s voice—sacred and feminine—that penetrates the intellectual male sphere and, through the mediation of Socrates, con- structs a th eory of love tha t grounds Western th ought. If Diotima is th e figure who directs the human gaze a way from phenomena to pure concepts, to the Platonic Idea, I would argue that Pandora employs a similar philosophical force, although, teleologically, an opposite on e. In contrast to Diotima, Pandora turns the human gaze downward, toward herself, and toward the phenomenon. The Pandora who appears in Theogony inaugurates the visibility of the sensible world, while she is herself the first phe- nomenon and the last (human) descendant of the divine erotic line.

Taking in to a ccount h er deep a ffiliation w ith th e v isual world—being herself the human transformation of the erotic principle and the princi- pal element of the sensible world—Pandora is no deviation from an orig- inal. She is no imitation lacking an origin. The emphasis on Pandora’s visibility does not make her into a mere externality. Nor does the fact that the Theogonic Pandora lacks a body mark h er as a simula- crum. Pandora’s visibility is directly linked to the essence of phenomena, to that which makes the sensible world what it is—namely, the v isible world. At this point we must say more about the correlation between the feminine and the sensible.

Aphrodite is granted precedence “over maidens’ conversations [oarous], smiles [ meidemata], tricks [ exapatas], / sw eet delight [terpsin te glukeren], and gentle love [philoteta meilichien].” All these seductive features are characterized by Aphrodite as essentially feminine. Their linear order schematizes the outlines of feminine erotic behavior. Female conversations are centered on secret passions. As these passions are exchanged and exposed, they intensify, inciting a desire to fulfill them. Smiles, tricks, and delight are the methods of feminineseduction.Thewoman communicates her passion through facial gestures (smiles), verbal gestures (tricks), and a beautiful appearance (sweet delight). This is then followed by th e final st age of the er otic en deavor, which is fully a ccomplished by soft intercourse (gentle love).

This phenomenology of gentle erotic conduct is radically separated from the violent and merciless characterization of the primordial Eros. It thus marks the transition from the abstract Eros that pertains to the aus- tere cosmic beginning to the feminine embodiment of Eros and its new position in the culturally sublimated world. Although born of the inhumanly violent act of castration,Aphrodite’s gentle figure obliterates any signs of this brutal origin.Her feminine persona provides a divine pre-figuration of human sexuality. More precisely, Aphrodite hands over the primary responsibility for human sexuality to women.

Aphrodite underlines the dependence of the feminine erotic presence on interpersonal relationships. Feminine sexuality operates within the inter- personal field, the space created between the one who sees and the one who is seen, between the seducer and the seduced. In emphasizing Aphro- dite’s responsibility for dialogic relationships, Hesiod establishes the connection between femininity, sexuality, and visibility. Aphrodite promotes the feminine figure into a sexual being because she defines feminine erotic existence through interactions with others: smiling at, seducing, and touching men. Thus, Aphrodite in troduces s eeing an d being as c onstitutive elements of sexuality. In other words, she shows that visibility is an indis- pensable feature of the erotic field.

The connection betw een the erotic and the visible i s important for understanding cosmic development. The relationship between the erotic and the visible was vaguely alluded to earlier in the poem in its r eference to the beauty of primordial Eros. This was only a vagu e allusion because the pr imordial er otic pr inciple i s formless an d, consequently, invisible. Only th e bea utiful form of Aphrodite mak es v isibility an aspect of the erotic and thus marks a n ew stage in the cosmological development. Her birth introduces beauty and visibility into the world. Her divine influence is manifest in making v isibility a part of life. With her birth, the world is ready to make the passage from the intangible stage of the cosmos to the sensual stage of appearances. The divine contribution of Aphrodite to the sensual aspect i s followed by the appearance of the first woman. Primar- ily understood as a feminine asset, sexuality assigns women predominance over the realm of phenomena—that is, the visible sphere. Since the femi- nine, being under the divine influence of its beautiful patroness, Aphrodite, represents the visible world more than the masculine does, femininity is, in fact, the pronunciation of the erotic phenomenon. And so the ultimate stage of the erotic process that began w ith the invisible force of Eros and culminated in the maturation of the sensible world is marked by the cre- ation of the ultimate phenomenon, the first woman.

Although Aphrodite is not directly responsible for Pandora’s creation, she is certainly expected to be her patroness, being the goddess of that sex- uality sh e has c onstructed as ess entially feminine. While Aphrodite th us serves as Pandora’srolemodel, Pandora’s appearance is a realization of the erotic codes established by her divine patroness.

Hesiod’s mi sogynist pr esentation of Pandora, in oth er w ords, is rivaled by an a lternative and pathbreaking notion of the feminine that is concomitantly dev eloped b y H esiod’s text. Theogony allows us t o s ee th e destructive image of Pandora as simult aneously the source of humanity’s transformation from indistinguishable beings into self-reflecting individ- uals. This is the sense in which I r ead Theogony as a concealed eulogy of the feminine.

The naming of the first w oman occurs while th e spect ators and the readers are gazing a t her. The name “Pandora” is thus tied to her visibility, indicating that visibility is the essence of woman. Visual appearance is the mark of the feminine. The appearance of the first woman incites re- sponses that turn to metaphorical language in order to capture its mean- ing. In other words, the meaning of the word “woman” derives from the idiomatic and imagistic responses that Pandora’s beauty invokes.

As already noticed by numerous readers, Pandora is the first work of art, the first product of manufacture, and the first manifestation of techne, as opposed to phusis. Even more importantly, Theogony introduces through the making of Pandora the very experience of objectification.Thepres- entation of Pandora as an object of art results in an ekphr asis, which, by virtue of its rhetorical quality, creates two portraits: that of the object (the creation of Pandora), and that of the act of gazing at the object (the responses to Pandora). Hesiod delineates the object’s visibility and thereby allows us to encounter a phenomenon in its pur e essence, through its appearance." [Vered Kenaan, Pandora's Senses]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:24 am

Socrates wrote:
"Those who now engage in philosophy are young men just out of boyhood, in the interval before taking on management of the household and money-making, who approach its hardest part—I call its hardest part dialectics—and then drop it. Regarded as accomplished philosophers in their later age, when invited to discuss with others, if they accept to be hearers, as if it were a great thing, it is because they think one should deal with this as something accessory. And in old age, except for a few, they are extinguished more than the Heraclitean sun, in so far as they aren’t kindled ever again (ἀποσβέννυνται πολὺ μᾶλλον τοῦ Ἡρακλειτείου ἡλίου, ὅσον αὖθις οὐκ ἐξάπτονται)." [Republic, 497e9–498b1]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:16 pm

Brian posts:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Rosa Lichtenstein wrote:
Super-Scientific truths, that Traditional Philosophers in Ancient Greece derived solely from the meaning of a set of specially-selected and doctored words, thus began to mirror the abstract view of reality appropriated by this new layer of Theorists, just as these theories themselves reflected their daily experience of class society. In this way, their mode of being mirrored their view of 'Being'. The life of these theoretical drones was largely one of leisure bought (directly or indirectly) at the expense of the necessary labour-time of those whose language and experience they depreciated and denigrated. In order to give expression to this form of estrangement, these theorists developed obscure Idealist terminology/'jargon'  deliberately set in opposition to the 'debased' and 'unreliable' language of those who had to work to stay alive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Rosa is too simplistic.


Lampert wrote:
"Platonism serves as a pointer to Socratic philosophizing because it pic- tures in the simplifying way of an image what occurs in natural human understanding; it fixes as doctrine what might be called “natural platonism.” Benardete notes that “all ordinary understanding is to an extraordinary degree based on what everybody attributes to a Platonic theory of the ideas. . . . The reason for this is what one might call the systematically misleading character of language itself, which necessarily leads to the pseudo-Platonic theory of the ideas.” Language necessarily misleads, collecting particulars that are always parts of processes into classes of relative fixity named by words of varying generality that human propensity reifies into something like the ideas. Platonism as a doctrine pictures—and takes advantage of—the natural human propensity to “platonize,” to treat as real the “ideas” that are an indispensable part of understanding and communicating. Platonism as a doctrine reifies the basic experiences of the beauti- ful, just, and good, the opinions that arrange the world morally; it lends the world a moral foundation while inviting the philosophically inclined to investigate it.

Because the doctrine of the ideas is true to the human propensity to generate seeming permanence, it is untrue to what Plato reports about Socrates’ singular experience; his turn to study human experience lingered momentarily over the ideas as the solution to a philosophical problem but led him eventually to discover the desire-generated character of the beautiful and the good. Platonism as a doctrine does what human experience generally does: sever those desire-generated products from the activity that produced them. Platonism mirrors in theory the natural human propensity to detach the product from the process, occluding and denying its product-character. Platonism as a doctrine gives this natural propensity to “platonize” the gift of a theory plus arguments and images to secure it against doubts; it gives Glaucon a “philosophy” of the sort to which he naturally inclines, a safe one that secures the beautiful, just, and good against doubts raised by philosophizing. Socrates’ argument for Platonism counts on the natural platonism of natural opining, its full confidence in its concepts of the beautiful, just, and good and their correspondence to the real. Socrates the inquiring philosopher is, so to speak, the only non-Platonist, the only one to doubt the adequacy of his concepts of the beautiful, just, and good. Doubting what others think they know, he judges it useful to philosophy that its allies sell the misunderstanding that philosophy shares the common ontological and epistemological certainty.

In its most evident educational purpose, Platonism is a safe philoso- phy for the leaders and followers of the new city. But Platonism shelters within itself a second and less evident educational purpose: it can become—for the rare nondreamers more driven by philosophy than by the beautiful, just, and good—the means whereby the errors of natural pla- tonism come to sight as errors. The terminal philosophical education of Glaucon doubles as the initiating philosophical education of a few. Such a second education proves a principle Benardete defined: “nothing can be properly understood if one does not take one’s bearings by the necessarily improper starting point of understanding.” The Republic places at its center—makes central—the most masterful trompe l’oeil: it embraces human knowing in its natural misleading tendency with an embrace that is taken as earnest by the earnest and as suspicious by the rare suspicious. Selling a moral likeness of itself, genuine philosophizing helps make the city safe for philosophy while inviting the rare to the rarest activity." [How Philosophy became Socratic]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 14009
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:22 am


_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 14009
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:27 am


_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:42 pm

Socrates wrote:
"[Writing] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality." [Phaedrus]

The full passage:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Ethos

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 121
Join date : 2015-12-29
Location : Colony Techne

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:35 pm

Plato wrote:
“About philosophic natures, let's agree that they are always in love with that learning which discloses to them something of the being that is always and does not wander about, driven by generation and decay.”

“Yes, let's agree to that.”

“And, further,” I said, “that just like the lovers of honor and the erotic men we described before, they love all of it and don't willingly let any part go, whether smaller or bigger, more honorable or more contemptible.”

[...]

“Now is it possible that the same nature be both a lover of wisdom and a lover of falsehood?”

“In no way.”

“Therefore the man who is really a lover of learning must from youth on strive as intensely as possible for every kind of truth.”

“Entirely so.”

“But, further, we surely know that when someone's desires incline strongly to some one thing, they are therefore weaker with respect to the rest, like a stream that has been channeled off in that other direction.”

“Of course”

“So, when in someone they have flowed toward learning and all that's like it, I suppose they would be concerned with the pleasure of the soul itself with respect to itself and would forsake those pleasures that come through the body—if he isn't a counterfeit but a true philosopher.”

“That is most necessary.”

[...]

“To an understanding endowed with magnificence and the contemplation of all time and all being, do you think it possible that human life seem anything great?”

“Impossible,” he said. [Republic 485a-b, d, 486]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Ethos

avatar

Gender : Male Posts : 121
Join date : 2015-12-29
Location : Colony Techne

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:23 am

Plato wrote:
Socrates: [The] greatest of penalties is being ruled by a worse man if one is not willing to rule oneself. [Republic 347c]

Plato wrote:
Socrates: Will a man, if he picks up a shield or any other weapon or tool of war, on that very day be an adequate combatant in a battle of heavy-armed soldiers, or any other kind of battle in war, even though no other tool if picked up will make anyone a craftsman or contestant, nor will it even be of use to the man who has not gained knowledge and undergone adequate training? [Republic 374c-d]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:20 pm

Lyssa wrote:
Socrates wrote:
"[Writing] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality." [Phaedrus]

The full passage:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Lyssa
Har Har Harr
avatar

Gender : Female Posts : 9035
Join date : 2012-03-01
Location : The Cockpit

PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:13 pm

The most interesting book I have read in a long while on Socrates:

'Socrates among the Corybantes' by Carl Levenson.

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://ow.ly/RLQvm
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Socrates and Socratic studies

Back to top Go down
 
Socrates and Socratic studies
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» ICAI to change exam pattern for CA Course...Case Studies to form part of Questions
» What do new '2D:4D digit ratio' studies report?
» Testosterone in females and migraines...
» talkin like bob mumford,,,,
» Having fun

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Know Thyself :: AGORA :: LYCEUM-
Jump to: