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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 14, 2019 7:24 pm

Curt frames the epistemology like below, that is also supposed to come with particular grammars.
Anybody understand how to actually practice / train this? What to read and how to practice to show understanding?




Warranty                              -             property           -           method


Identity(name)                -                   categories           -         arithmetic

internal consistency          -                  logic               -             accounting

existential possibility           -                operations           -          algebra

external correspondence             -          space             -          geometry

full accounting(change)             -           time(change)         -     calculus

limits (externalities)              -               survival              -        models

parsimony                        -                 prediciton          -            simulations

tautology                       -                   completeness      -            reality
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Feb 15, 2019 11:59 am

You'd be better off asking Curt himself or one of the experienced and well-read propertarians that hang around him. I only know the basics.

His tables are insane, but I do appreciate what he's trying to do.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Feb 15, 2019 12:09 pm

Giving form to objective reality so as to deny subjectivity a free-hand.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 10:18 am

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 11:15 am

Ha!!!
Two people, lost in the desert, can reach the same oasis following completely different paths, and then they can drink from the same pools of water sharing their experiences, using different words to describe the same phenomena.

This is what it means to be objective.
If subjectivity is disciplined to a shared objective reality, and its motives are honest and courageous, then agreement is inevitable.
How could it not be?
Whoever cannot pays the price, if he/she is not protected from his/her own cowardice and idiocy by an external will, with....undisclosed motives. Suspect

Dim-witted Moderns believe all agreement is a product of social pressures, edumucation, and coercion, because they desperately wish it were so.
They want everything to be a social construct because then it is 'correctable'....they can 'change the world' to accommodate their inferiority, and they can escape the shame this produces in those who cannot improve themselves because they cannot be honest with themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 11:23 am

I guess Doolittle approaches the 'issue' from law and social engineering 'rules' that impose honesty upon the dishonest, chronic self-deceivers, whereas I simply diagnose and approach the subject from psychology, metaphysics.
I do not want to intervene....but only step back and allow it all to follow their inevitable path towards destruction, only stepping in to diagnose, and to preserve and maintain what needs to be, in this coming Dark Age.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 21, 2019 10:05 pm

Looks like Curt is ready to take your advice:

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Feb 22, 2019 6:27 am

He's come to the same realization.
The ill cannot be healed.
The battle is to be fought with preventative medicines, not interventional.  In the latter sometimes the medicine is more threatening to the individual than the disease, because the intervention is traumatic - depending how far along the disease has progressed - whereas the disease is subtle, and consistent, and part of its method is to flood the brain of the infected with endorphins. Like a drug, it eats away at the host while it is feeling good about it.
Habituation with the state of narcotic degeneracy makes the patient resistant to healing. He wants to remain ill, because he's used to it and the disease makes him feel good.  

I stopped believing in the cocnept 'humanity' a long time ago.
Not only did I lose my adolescent idealism wanting to 'save them' from this, but I lost my argument, with myself, as to why they ought to be saved, at all.
Most are trash....no matter where they come from. Trash harbours vermin, diseases, parasitical infestations, and it can only be burnt....very little can be recycled.
Sometimes in the garbage I've come across some discarded jewel, something thrown away because they did not appreciate it, but mostly I found spent, decaying trash.  
I keep away from garbage dumps, as I age.
My autoimmune system isn't what it used to be.
When I was younger I could wallow in the muck with the pigs....but these days I don't care to.

Garbage and swine faeces produce a lot of methane....explosive and dangerous.
I once worked construction. We were building a cement a wall in a pig farm. The stench was unbearable. It burned my nostrils. I still recall how potent it was.
Pig sties are for pigs and the vermin that feed on them, and parasites that live on them.

This is a different kind of war...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as I say, plagiarizing Hanson, or Nebulous War, if I need to retain my integrity.
It is feminine, not masculine, swinging swords, bullets, man to man, fight to the death.
It's memetic....a Frigid War....not Cold, not Hot.
This war necessitates a shift in perspective...a more feminine perspective is required. No blood and glory, but innuendo, gossip, counter-intelligence; asymmetrical methods, psychological means.
The meme is like an infection, a virus. You can't fight a virus using conventional means.
The propagating vehicle, for the west, is a parasite. Parasites are difficult to get rid of, when they become established.
This war will be fought from the inside-out, not the outside-in - Inverted.
The 'warrior' cannot approach the enemy, fighting man-to-man....because he risks being infestation and infected.

If we do not adapt to this new kind of enemy, we shall perish.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Feb 22, 2019 6:40 am

The vast majority of those we consider 'our own kind' are already infected. Some of those we think are of our own kind are parasites pretending to belong to our kind.
Paranoia will be our tool.

It's not by accident that what is being produced as 'art' mirrors what is occurring.
The Matrix, and all these zombie films.
They offer a perfect metaphor for what is occurring.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Your own family members may be infected.
When infected a uniformity of appearance is produced so that the race, creed, sex of the infected is inconsequential.
Zombies hate the sunlight....they flourish in darkness, in the occult, in the obscure. The hide among us.
The virus takes control of the individual's nervous system....through language. First symptoms are linguistic....gibberish, nonsense begins flowing out of their mouths.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Feb 22, 2019 6:11 pm

When it comes to things like Propertarianism I prefer to read rather than listen to videos. More information in less time.

Although I too don't fully understand it, from what I've managed to grasp I could hardly find a flaw in it.

It gives a very abstract, encompassing, "meta" perspective on things, the kind of thinking many call autistic.

Here's one text on the basics of it, other than the previously linked Core Concepts by Eli Harman:

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Some good quotes:

Curt Doolittle wrote:
We don’t use the Truth to convince you. You are immoral, dishonest, dysgenic and lack the agency to use the Truth. We use the Truth to convince ourselves, who are moral, honest, eugenic, and possess of agency, that it is right, just and moral, to separate from you – and if not, then conquer, kill, enslave, en-serf, and subjugate you in self defense – not only defense of ourselves, but of all we have made, and the future of mankind yet unmade.

Curt Doolittle wrote:
I am a Heathen if 1) I accept the laws of nature as binding on all of existence; and 2) if I treat nature as sacred and to be contemplated, protected and improved; and 3) I treat the world as something to transform closer to an Eden in whatever ways I can before I die; and 4) if I deny the existence of a supreme being with dominion over the physical laws, and treat all gods, demigods, heroes, saints, figures of history, and ancestors as characters with whom I may speak to in private contemplation in the hope of gaining wisdom and synchronicity from having done so. And 5) if I participate with others of my society in repetition of oaths, repetition of myths, repetition of festivals, repetition of holidays, and the perpetuation of all of the above to my offspring. And 6) if I leave open that synchronicity appears to exist now and then, and that it may be possible that there is a scientific explanation for it, other than just humans subject to similar stimuli producing similar intuitions and therefore similar ends.

As far as I know this is all that is required of me to be a Heathen.

I am a Christian if I have adopted the teaching of christianity: 1) the eradication of hatred from the human heart. 2) the extension of kinship love to non-kin. 3) the demand for personal acts of charity and personal cost, 4) the extension of exhaustive forgiveness before punishment, enserfment, enslavement, death, or war.

As far as I know, this is all that is required of me to be a Christian.

I am an Aryan if 1) I proudly display my excellences so that others seek to achieve or exceed them; 2) I seek competition to constantly test and improve myself so I do not weaken; 3) I swear to speak no insult and demand it; 4) I speak the truth and demand it; 5) I take nothing not paid for and demand it; 6) I grant sovereignty to my kin and demand it; 7) I insure my people regardless of condition, and demand it; and in doing so leave nothing but voluntary markets of cooperation between sovereign men; and to discipline, enserf, enslave, ostracize or kill those who do otherwise; Cool to not show fear or cowardice, abandon my brothers, or retreat, and 9) to die a good death in the service of my kin, my clan, my tribe and my people.

As far as I know, this is all that is required of me to be an Aryan.

I am a Warrior in that 1) we will prepare for war so perfectly that none dare enter it against us. 2) Once we go to war, we do so with joy, with eagerness, and with passion, and without mercy, without constraint, and without remorse; And 3) before ending war, we shall defeat an enemy completely such that no other dares a condition of our enemy, and the memory of the slaughter lives a hundred generations.

As far as I know, this is all that is required of me to be a Warrior.

As far as I know, if I succeed as a Heathen, as a Christian, as an Aryan, as a Warrior, then I have transcended the animal man, and earned my place among the saints, heroes, demigods, gods, in the memories, histories, and legends of man.

And that is the objective of heroes, demigods, and gods. We leave the rest for ordinary men.

Curt Doolittle
The Cult of Sovereignty
The Philosophy of Aristocracy
The Natural Law of Reciprocity
The Propertarian Institute,
Kiev, Ukraine
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Feb 22, 2019 11:39 pm

Autsider wrote:
Although I too don't fully understand it, from what I've managed to grasp I could hardly find a flaw in it.

This is also my consistent position on it. It's not some "new weird trick," it's comprehensive and vast. At the very least, Prop. offers a lot of tools. It has opened up for me fresh avenues of research into subjects like Law that, as I get older, I find much more important.

An insight that sticks with me these days, is something Curt has said: Religion is for slaves, those with the lowest agency, who essentially consume hope all day and demand it be given to them. Philosophy, in the continental sense (which he calls "justificationary/excuse-making"), is for middle-class people (genetically or economically); those with just enough agency to gossip and reach consensus about the imaginary world they think they live in, but enough ignorance and naivety to ruin everything if they are given power. Empiricism/law/science is for those who actually rule, those with the highest agency and the least need for justification, storytelling, etc.  

Feminine/infant: Religion. "I'm hungry. Feed me."
Boy/effeminate male: Liberty. "Let's make the world a better place. Anything is possible!"
Man/aristocrat: Rule of Law. "Have fun eating and dreaming. But here are the boundaries. Don't cross them or you'll be punished."

Thinking in Propertarian terms indeed can help you think more like a ruler, instead of the ruled (which is what you really are). Knowing that Curt is an elite, I know that he knows things I don't. So I'm savoring his project because there's a lot to take from it that I normally wouldn't be able to access.
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyMon Feb 25, 2019 8:17 pm



Sounds very litigious.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 9:33 am

"Sounds very litigious."

Well, that's kind of like listening to a gun designer promoting his innovations in gun design, and then saying, "Sounds very trigger-happy."
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 9:39 am

Sounds exactly as what it is.
Whether you pull or do not pull the trigger....it looms like a threat.
A gun designer implies a pulling of the trigger. He doesn't deign his 'gun' to decorate his home.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 10:26 am

Replace violence with litigation is a way to prevent collapse.
It is practised in the US.
Propertarianism wants to expand the definition of 'property' to include morality, ethnicity, family, ideology, ideas, etc...although there are presently property rights over intangibles, like art and ideas.

Patents will be written to cover the entire gamut of human concepts, and all will be settled in the courts, by judges.
Law was part of Spartan society. An often unwritten law.

Why is this embarrassing?
It is what it is.

To use your metaphor...a 'gun designer' who invents a more powerful or faster gun, is designing it to be used...not as a design to hang on the wall like a memento.
The threat of its use is part of its utility.
Buying and owning a bigger faster gun, than your neighbour, does not mean you'll use it on him, but that you 'can' and 'might' use it, if the circumstances call for it - personal judgment based on how vulnerable to the other you may feel at any given time.
So, all are walking no eggshells, so to speak, not knowing how 'trigger-happy or in what state of mind the other is, at any given time.
Wild West mentality. Everyone will 'stake his property, lay claim to his 'land', so to speak, which will include tangible an intangible products of the human mind.
The threat suffices to lower its use, but its use has to be a real possibility, otherwise its an empty threat not even children would be affected by.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 11:06 am

Critique is not a denouncement.
I, at least, try to put the idea in the light, by redefining it using different language, in this manner exploring all aspects of it.
My belief that there are no absolutes, - which you may not share - means, to me, that no idea is ever perfect, nor complete...only superior and/or inferior.

Nothing is perfect.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 2:35 pm

Maybe you meant "litigious" in a neutral sense that I'm not so familiar with, like "concerning law/litigation." As I know the term, it's used negatively, pejoratively, meaning "always using courts to settle disputes, even when it's not necessary." A litigious person, in this sense, is not the one who designed or discovered the laws, but merely a hypocritical bully abusing the legal system.

Hence my metaphor, a "trigger-happy" person is usually not the person who designed the weapon. They are a psychopath or retard abusing the tool. The Prop. project is trying to strengthen the language of law itself so that it cannot be abused by people that I would call "litigious." (I would also call them a lot of other things! But you get the idea.)
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 5:12 pm

Quote :
li·ti·gious
Dictionary result for litigious
/ləˈtijəs/
adjective
adjective: litigious

   unreasonably prone to go to law to settle disputes.
   "our increasingly litigious society"
       concerned with lawsuits or litigation.
       suitable to become the subject of a lawsuit.

Webster Online Dictionary wrote:
litigious adjective
li·​ti·​gious | \ lə-ˈti-jəs
, li-\
Definition of litigious

1a : disputatious, contentious in a litigious mood
b : prone to engage in lawsuits an increasingly litigious society
2 : subject to litigation not known to be litigious when purchased— James Muirhead
3 : of, relating to, or marked by litigation a litigious situation


Wherever violence is prohibited, or strictly punished, a venting mechanism is prudent.

Don't know what constitutes 'unreasonableness' when violence is replaced by litigation.
I guess those who are 'prone to violence', for insignificant matters, will be 'prone to lawsuits' for the same 'unreasonable reasons'.
Like violence, it weeds out, over time, those who abuse it, leaving those who are disciplined by its 'possibility' alone.
Law will become a looming threat...like the idea that all own guns.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Feb 28, 2019 9:24 pm

If European males do not control their innate tribalism, their overly developed sense of self (ego), and their nationalistic identifiers, finding in each other a shared heritage that can hope to confront this memetic disease - exploited parasitically - then they will disappear in time, becoming a historical footnote; if they do not become allies against a common enemy then they will fall, gloriously divided, before an emasculating foe.
Their females absorbed into rival tribes, that have joyfully surrendered to the dis-ease.
It's the same dilemma faced by the ancient-Greeks when the Persians appeared on their borders.
This is a time of reckoning. A Dark Age, similar to the previous events of near-extinction.
A period of turmoil, full of opportunities that will ether eliminate them, or force them to rise up, from lethargy, and grow stronger.
How did that often used and abused post-modern idol put it?
"What does not kill me..."

Towards this end, I am willing to excuse any antithesis, any imperfection in those who are working towards the same goal.
There is no enemy to be found among us, except for traitors.

I am with Spengler and Yockey....fighting for a united Europe, of a spiritual sort - where genetics and memetics harmonize in a unity.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyWed Aug 14, 2019 6:38 pm

curt ip blocked me because i called one of the guys who laughed at me in the comments a clown on his page...weird to be blocking people like this without warning
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Aug 16, 2019 1:39 am

His "Discord" had also banned me on one occasion for criticizing the tribe of all things...
Perhaps Mr. Orwoll was right, and Curt does have friends in high places.
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 am

Language is important. Social interaction is important. But to earnestly study only that, to not countenance even natural processes underlying them, is demonstrative of a certain.. Influence.

Of course, to communicate first what's underlying one must use language. But here is where Art and Philosophy meet. Art evokes one thing in a person, another in another. Philosophy utilizes art to communicate the underlying with what appears superficial. This reading into a statement has been exploited by.. Certain characters.. To say a substantive non-prima facie meaning lies below their bullshit, when the prima facie exposes their dementedness.
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Aug 16, 2019 5:50 pm

i am indifferent to him, i never had anything against him, i followed his page and sometimes, when some of his more outlandish statistics got me interested i'd request him to link me back to his sources for these figures which he never did(I tried like 5 times),...then out of curiosity I made a fake fb account and complemented him on one of his posts with some edgy compliment...he replied within seconds and exchanged with me for the next two days...only ignoring me when i confronted him about the data and asking for references to some of his claims...seems like the only place on internet that isnt full of dickheads is kts...
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyFri Aug 16, 2019 6:15 pm

he might be right in his theory though or its parts, i am not a maniac, just because he treated me like a dickhead and has flaws doesnt completely turn him into a useless sack of shit with worst kinds of intentions
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptySat Aug 17, 2019 3:46 pm

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Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptyThu Aug 22, 2019 7:03 pm

The strategy of imposing a collective cost on an evolved strategy using duplicity to compensate for genetic inferiority may sound good in theory but may prove impossible to apply in practice.
It also implies a collapse which it has no way of assuring...and if it occurs then why not apply a tried and tested social system, like Timocracy, rather than an untried theoretical moral system?

From what I know of man theories are usually, if not always, perfect on paper, and entirely a different thing in practice.  
The human urge to circumvent social rules to gain an advantage over competitors is so great that no moral or social rules will thwart its creativity.
When it comes to love and war it's never about reasoning and logic. Animals die, under the influence of hormones that make them do things and make choices that they would not otherwise even consider making.
In Islam, adultery is punished by stoning, in some countries....and this has not stopped it from continuing.
Christianity used a combination of eternal life and earthly suffering, and this still did not stop men from breaking its "holy tenets".
Where there is no kinship, no blood ties, the rules no longer matter.  

I'm not one to dishearten anyone and anything that fights agaisnt the present state of degeneracy, so I will stand back and let it have its way.
I hope it works.
I also support Spencer's battles agaisnt degenerates.
Do I think these efforts will succeed?
No.
The probabilities are small.
This cycle must run its course. Degenerates will produce their own collapse.
It's happened in the past.
What will replace the collapses decayed system? Something like that cannot be predicted, because there are other players in this game.
Power relationships played out over time will produce a new beginning....if it all does not settle upon extinction - which is also a possibility.
Again....of what I know about humans, taking precedent as a guiding foundation, the old shall repeat....in a slightly modified form.
And then the cycle of decay will begin again.....and the same parasites will be there to pick at the decaying bones, over and over....again.

Is not the voyage the purpose, and not the destination?
Win or lose is it not invigorating to fight and to do battle agaisnt the zombie hoards? Is not identity the product of a negation? "I am what I am not"....or "I am defined by what I refuse to become".
Nobility juxtaposed agaisnt degeneracy and parasitism. Nobility places something else above survival.
The Aristocratic spirit measures - even itself - using external standards; it holds itself accountable to them.

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Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptySun Aug 25, 2019 7:18 pm

Satyr wrote:
The strategy of imposing a collective cost on an evolved strategy using duplicity to compensate for genetic inferiority may sound good in theory but may prove impossible to apply in practice.

Huh

Satyr wrote:
It also implies a collapse which it has no way of assuring...and if it occurs then why not apply a tried and tested social system, like Timocracy, rather than an untried theoretical moral system?

From what I know of man theories are usually, if not always, perfect on paper, and entirely a different thing in practice.

And where's timocracy now?

The degree to which theories are good is the degree to which they correspond to reality - saying "theories are perfect on paper but different in practice" implies it isn't a matter of degree, but absolutes (perfect), thus failing to differentiate between better and worse theories. Propertarianism doesn't have to be right about everything, it just has to be less wrong than other theories.

If you have some specific criticism of propertarianism and think it's wrong about something, that's fine. I do too. But saying "all theories are wrong therefore propertarianism too" sounds like trolling, especially coming from somebody who otherwise emphasizes the importance of differentiation instead of reducing all to the same level, and thinking in degrees and not absolutes.

Satyr wrote:
When it comes to love and war it's never about reasoning and logic.

Reasoning and logic are tools, not ends.

Satyr wrote:
Animals die, under the influence of hormones that make them do things and make choices that they would not otherwise even consider making.

You are speaking as if the hormones are separate from the animals, instead of being a part of their organism, and like every other part, designed by nature to facilitate survival.

Satyr wrote:
n Islam, adultery is punished by stoning, in some countries....and this has not stopped it from continuing.
Christianity used a combination of eternal life and earthly suffering, and this still did not stop men from breaking its "holy tenets".

One doesn't have to completely stop all degeneracy everywhere, which isn't possible anyways. Suppressing it is enough.

In a sense degenerates can even be useful, they are a healthy outlet for aggression.

Satyr wrote:
I also support Spencer's battles agaisnt degenerates.

Huh

Satyr wrote:
Is not the voyage the purpose, and not the destination?

Sure it can be, it would just mean you have a voyage with no destination. Once you set a destination, the voyage ceases being the purpose. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

Satyr wrote:
Nobility juxtaposed agaisnt degeneracy and parasitism. Nobility places something else above survival.
The Aristocratic spirit measures - even itself - using external standards; it holds itself accountable to them.

Survival is the only possible external standard. Everything else is subjective.

If you consider all the people whom place something else above survival, almost none of them are what you'd call noble - most are imbeciles, degenerates, cowards, etc.

On the other hand, there is an extremely high correlation between principles which facilitate survival, and those you would call noble, especially in nature. It's hard to think of a situation that would demonstrate a difference between the two that isn't only possible because of a perverted/inverted, modern social environment.
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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptySun Aug 25, 2019 7:40 pm

My critique is about imposing an ethical code, about truth and honesty, upon an organism that has evolved a different moral system, which includes duplicity, and self-deceit.
Sexual interactions are based on duplicities, and exaggerations. The game of attraction is based on hyperbole and pretence.

Islam also imposes a high cost on rule breakers, yet it fails to produce absolute conformity.

Timocracy was a victim of its own success.
It was applied for centuries...and it was so successful that it produced stragglers, like artists, and philosophers, and bums, which then demanded equal rights.
But the "where is it now" if applied to Propertarianism would come up blank. It has no precedent, so it is entirely theoretical....like anarcho-capitalism.
So we have nothing to compare it with other than its own theory.
I guess we'll have to wait for the application.

Timocracy did work....it worked too well.
So well it produced excess that then brought it down to Democracy - another theoretical ideology that has yet to be applied as it is written, or, to be more precise, that has yet to be practiced as it was written.
Democracy, as it is practised is really Plutocracy. The Demos is always mediocre, ill informed and easily manipulated, contradicting the spirit of the theory.

Timocracy can be tweaked, before we go into experimental theories enforcing moral standards on a species that always breaks them, if they are manmade, and enforced by humans, finding loopholes and creative ways to evade them.

Principles that facilitate survival are sometimes principles that ensure the individual's demise....see selfish gene.
Watch how males, in other species, behave in ways that risk their demise, so as to propagate the species. Hormones produce an intoxication that blurs reasoning, and overcomes the survival instincts. This is why I said that this moral standard is impossible to be enforced upon a species that depends on irrational behaviour.
Irrational behaviour is part of natural selection.  
Reasoning and higher awareness is not a natural goal.
It is a noble goal....practised by a few.  
But systems cannot only include the few.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptySun Aug 25, 2019 7:58 pm

I'm not negating Proprietariansim.

Only pointing out some facts.

All moral systems depend on the carrot/stick method.
Abrahamism has a vague all-encompassing concept, called God, which imposes self-discipline with a vague threat.
Proproetariansim replaces god with the community. An individual's peers impose a cost on lying, let's say....because the 'truth' is now a communal property, not god's property. Dishonesty is punished by the community.

Timocracy leaves out the middle men.
The criterion is production of tangible goods, to the community.
So, the individual is measuring his honesty and understanding against nature.
He cannot bullshit nature....because then he will fail to produce tangible goods. He cannot lie to himself, or to anyone, because the cost will not be imposed by an entity or a group, but by nature.
If he fails he cannot participate in the running of the State. His quality of mind is established by his ability to know and understand and conform to natural order.
Then a cap can be imposed so the gifted do not gain an great advantage over the less gifted - among homoioi.
There is a hierarchy.
This is the only human intervention.
A cap on wealth, so that among the equals one is not so superior that the others become his minions.
A sort of Capitalism/Communism synthesis.

Citizenrship has to be earned...and is not given.
Each citizen has to contribute, with tangible goods, to the group, and serve in its protection. A citizen/soldier. Hoplite.
This rule alone excludes the vast majority of imbeciles, cowards and hypocrites, yet imposes no restrictions on duplicity or immoral behaviour, other than the usual price one spays for breaking trust with one's peers.
It takes a humility, a self-discipline and a honesty to measure yourself before natural forces. If you fail to do so nature punishes you with not yielding her wealth to you.
It takes a certain kind of spirit to want to serve his people.

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PostSubject: Re: Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* Curt Doolittle's *Propertarianism* - Page 5 EmptySun Aug 25, 2019 8:01 pm

It's not like propertarians are just pulling stuff out of their arses, one of the main points is to learn from the mistakes of past political orders and improve upon them. Timocracy and the kind of political order propertarians would bring about would probably be very similar.

If timocracy didn't predict it would be successful and come up with ways of dealing with this success, that's a flaw.

Males don't risk to propagate the species, they risk to propagate their own genes. Risk taking can be calculated and a result of reasoning/rational. Reproduction is a form of survival.

Irrationality, like other defects, tends to be punished by natural selection.

Reasoning and higher awareness aren't goals, they are means.
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