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AutSider



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PostSubject: Power Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:08 pm

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Interesting discussion about power. I think that the primary type of power is physical power, which is to say the power to affect physical interactions in the objective world, which consists of concrete things. All other types of power are based on it and therefore its subtypes.

Drawing from my own experience, I have 2 dogs, and by the time I've gotten the second one as a puppy the first one was already grown.  The first dog asserted itself over the second dog while the latter was still young and physically weaker. Later on, even when the second dog grew to be physically stronger, it was still submissive to the first dog. The type of power the 1st dog exerts over the 2nd is psychological power, the secondary main type of power. It is initially dependent upon physical power to establish itself, but almost becomes a power in and of itself afterwards, possibly independent of further proof of physical superiority.

A type of psychological power is social power, it involves at least 2 organisms and works only on other living beings with the ability to, to some extent, perceive patterns and store them as memory. This is one of the reasons it is inferior to raw physical power - it is more dependent and thus applies in a fewer number of scenarios (only in interactions with other organisms, not the non-organic world). Aside from that, raw physical power is always guaranteed to work, while the psychological may not. An intelligent organism that is psychologically dominated but physically superior , may eventually become aware of the physical weakness of the one psychologically dominating them, and realize that they do not have to be dominated at all. For example, if the 2nd dog I have realized it was stronger than the 1st, it could easily physically dominate it. But typically only more intelligent organisms - humans, can break free from psychological domination. And then, only the more intelligent of humans.

Political, economic, religious, etc. powers are all types of social power and appeal to different parts of the human psyche, so some are more inclined to be persuaded by political, others by economic, others again by religious power.

By the way, when I speak of raw physical power, I don't necessarily mean only bodily strength. Neanderthal A may be less strong than neanderthal B, but if A is intelligent enough to realize that picking up a club increases its power, and B is not, then A may end up being physically more powerful despite having less bodily strength. So intelligence is also a type of power.

EDIT: To clarify, I consider intelligence to be the core psychological power. It can be applied in social contexts too, but it is also useful outside of social contexts, which differentiates it from social power.


Last edited by AutSider on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Power Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:42 am

Two immediate considerations:

1. Seniority, Age, Experience, these all have worth and high value. As an organism survives, lives, and thrives it eventually becomes worn down by age alone. Dying from age is *RARE* in nature. Most animals do not survive into old age, get to enjoy the golden years, or "retire". Retirement is purely an indication of previous social success. Just as handicaps and retards survive off the excess of a society, so too do disabled retirees or very old people. However obvious a retiree is categorically different from retards and handicaps in the sense that a retiree probably has contributed to society through a healthy life. Most very old people have lived a relatively healthy lifestyle (efficiency) in order for them to become very old.

Seniority Rules. There are legitimate reasons that older, more mature, and elder members of society or family 'deserve' their positions. They are not elderly for no reason. The reason is previous success. Success leads to a 'retirement' and senior position. Thus elders are naturally associated with social status, respect, and dignity. How 'ought' a society treat their seniors, grandparents, and elders? East Asians, for example, are very very respectful of elders and very much cater lifestyles to parentage, instead of directed toward children (like hedonistic westerners). Western anti-culture is very much aimed at infantilism and catering to children, acting like children forever, and praising immaturity.


2. Words don't have power, per se. It is only when combined with Authority, and backed by threat of force and violence, that words begin to "mean something" or "are meaningful". This is what is meant by 'Objectivity' on KT versus the 'Subjectivity' on ILP. Subjectivists never really "mean" what they say. The reasons are more obvious. An unreasonable, stupid, retard, is not taken seriously nor should be taken seriously. A stupid person or mentally ill is not respected. And so the words and commands of a retard, are impotent, compared to the rarer ones who are authoritative and 'serious'.

Reconsider this idea about power. Person A tells Person B to do something, to act. Person B then acts. So who has the power? Person A who simply told Person B some words, an order, a command? Or Person B who actually did the work, did the function, used force? What is not talked about enough, especially on KT, is the "power" of the authority of the words of Person A. Ideas do have "weight" when people begin to believe in things, and apply faith to their ideals. This is why objectivity is so important. When it comes time to act in life, take risks, then you want to do it on a solid ground and foundation of objective knowledge, facts, and superior insights. You want to listen to Reason and Wisdom, to Philosophers. And this will result in superior actions and interaction with life and existence then otherwise "guessing" or chancing every decision and idea throughout life.

If somebody tells you not to stick a fork into a light socket then ought you still do it? Must humans reinvent the wheel with every generation, with every individual? The answer is No. Much of humanity is built upon trust and faith, in the underlying (objective) institution. Humanity, overall, doesn't need to keep sticking forks in lightsockets in order to understand and accept its danger and painful, perhaps deadly affects.

However somethings are more unclear, uncertain, and argued about.
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PostSubject: Re: Power Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:44 am

We can approach the concept of power from a body/mind divide, just as we can approach beauty.

Beauty
Body = symmetry (ideal), proportionality, symmetry in relation to world, imposing functionality (sexual).
Mind = demeanour (personality), flexibility, creativity in relation to flux (world of interactivity), or the unpredictable (charm).

Power
Body = strength.
Mind = intelligence.

In both cases what is described is excess of energies once the organism's automatic self-preservation processes take their share - breathing, digestion, cellular replacement, healing.
In the mind' case it is all about excess and directing excess energies.Emerging from brain, which is part of the nervous system, which evolved to direct and react to external and internal energies (patterned or not).
Hedonism is when the mind directs excess energies back to the body, addicted to the sensation of expunging them or fulfilling its needs, in both cases interpreted as pleasure.

So, power is excess energies, in relation to another organism/individuals.
Excess energies accumulated, preserved and directed by external energies, placed at the disposal of the organism, using institutions, or communally sanctioned automated, or not, processes, directed by traditions and laws, is power the organism inherits or attains through the overpowering of others using its own superior excess energies.
This is one problem with Capitalism, or any organized human system, seeking stability.
It, also, usurps natural processes, creating disharmony, when is sustains inferior organisms in symbolic positions of power, usually inherited and not earned.

Psychological power, or mental excess, may draw from physical power but is not totally dependent on it - sometimes a weak body imposes a need upon the mind that compensates by developing, cultivating, what mental power it has to a greater degree than another.
The Bimbo rule applies here.
If a girl is born pretty, if she inherits superior symmetry and proportionality, she need not cultivate her mind, though she may also have a higher potential than another.
The less attractive woman may be forced to cultivate her mind to compensate for what comes easy to the first girl and though she may have inherited inferior potentials she has developed them to a greater degree.

Genetics (nature) are about inheriting potential, and nurture is about cultivating this potential.

What cannot be inherited is intangible.
Empathy which is a property of imagination - higher creativity.
This is part of mind power.
If coupled with an ability to suppress and control ego (swallow ones pride), and to eliminate the natural tendency to sympathize with what is empathized (victim psychology), then this can lead to psychological manipulation.
The body need not be confronted, since you gain power over the brain that controls and directs it.


Asceticism, in the Hellenic sense, is about increasing control over your own body/mind, by exposing both to controlled stress.
Habituation with stress makes body/mind more durable, able to tolerate higher levels of it, and it also destroys, in a controlled methodical way, so as to thicken to make stronger.
Strength measuring degree of weakness, or how much world (interaction, flux) one can endure.
It broadens and deepens experience possibilities, where possibility=space.

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PostSubject: Re: Power Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:14 pm

There is a major categorical difference of Power in existence:

1. Physical power, the power of nature, the flood of a hurricane, a blistering lightning strike with a deafening roar of thunder, the deep and penetrating vibrations of a major earthquake. In this way nature is more powerful than life as a boulder can crush even the strongest of men, or any other animal. And so life respects nature and the physical elements, that which does not live. Life respects the power of Non-life. Non-life, nature, has no motive, and only acts in a seemingly random and chaotic manner to the unintelligent animals of the world. Because it is when an organism cannot predict, and fails to compensate for nature, that it dies and becomes erased by nature, made extinct. Intelligence is a direct and immediate function of all life forms.

2. Mental power is different, and something I'd hypothesize to the level of 'genetic' power. All life forms adapt, to an environment (nature), and so, all life forms no matter how small demonstrate some base ability of intelligence. ***INTELLIGENCE IS ADAPTATION*** That's as simple as it gets. The methods, behaviors, and actions that any and all organisms do and enact, in order to survive, is the sum of a lifetime. That *IS* life. And within all the actions, of all life, is its *MEANING*. It is the constant surviving, against non-life.

3. In order to understand power from the perspective of life, of a human, it is not enough to relegate and diminish all interpretations of power down to the merely physical. Because again, a man is not stronger than a boulder. And all the boulders on earth are countless powers above the strength of all humanity. Yet intelligence (mental) finds a different, indirect means of power. Rather than move a boulder himself, men use techniques, leverage, tools, heavy machines, dynamite, etc. Man uses earth against earth. And in this way, through knowledge and wisdom, learning and experiments, science and philosophy, man gains a far greater power than his own physical weight represents. A man is not just his weight, as a boulder is.

He is More.
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PostSubject: Re: Power Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:03 pm

The physical realm is where all power necessarily must manifest. Intelligence, psychological power, social power, economic power, etc... all ultimately based on their ability to affect the physical realm. Politicians are politically (socially) powerful because they have police and military backing them by fulfilling the role of mercenaries, of physical enforcers. In addition to physical power, politicians, as well as other authorities, also use psychological power (brainwashing, indoctrination), but it is less reliable, and generally only possible on those who have already been physically submitted, or the weak-minded. Intelligence too is only useful if it ultimately improves the performance of an organism concerning its interactions in physical reality. If one specimen is stronger and the other more intelligent, then the more intelligent one must find alternate ways of dealing with and overcoming the sheer bodily strength of the former. Perhaps it will use its superior intelligence to find/construct a weapon, or to form social bonds with other organisms and find power in numbers (social power), or it will simply strive to improve other aspects of its physicality, such as learning martial arts to counter strength with technique. All then use their strengths and weaknesses and participate in natural selection, which determines which types of power are more powerful, and which ones less so.

All forms of power are therefore ultimately tested in their ability to affect the physical. I do not consider this as reducing and diminishing the value of intelligence and other forms of power, rather, that all powers must manifest in the physical serves to connect and ground them firmly to the earth by providing a way to objectively measure such powers. It prevents the abstractions from floating away and becoming "skyhooks" and by doing that it also prevents every imbecile from just calling themselves "intelligent" and "powerful" without having anything to show for it, and it discredits their excuse of "it's all subjective".

And if I am not mistaken, it is also consistent with my idea of Objectivism, and with the scientific principle of bottom/earth->up/sky reasoning, which is to say, empiricism, and with evolution.
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PostSubject: Re: Power Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:20 am

Yes, like a meme must ultimately express itself genetically or remain a theory people talk about for entertainment, and to fantasize - mind candy.
A noumenon must become a phenomenon, words must find a way to influence actions.

Nihilism, as a way of detaching from a world that threatens, must express itself within world by inverting it, not only in theory but in practice - which is way duplicity is so necessary to it.
This produces the Judeo-Christian Paradox: How can you justify power gained by exploiting and manipulating feebleness?
How can the chosen ones retain their distinction while selling universalism, or cosmopolitanism?
How does one survive in a world he has rejected or inverted in his mind?

Nihilism inverts the process from gene to meme - civilization emerging out of culture, which emerges out on a population relating to its environment.
Nihilism is gene emerging out of meme, culture emerging out of civilization, where civilization is environment.
It could have only existed within urban overpopulated settings.
Everything about it is the inversion of nature and natural processes - it is the ideology, the anti-nature ideal, that contradicts nature and then has to survive within it.
It idolizes "progress" which becomes, within its principles, a definition of "correcting", or nullifying nature - supernatural, surreal, extraordinary meaning lacking any reference in experience - not exceptional but counter-normality.

How would feebleness, forced to noetically invert world, to tolerate its place within it, express its "power"?
Through proxies.
It is a memetic virus that becomes viral when population explosions multiply mutations, and psychological pleasures, while prolonging lifespans.
It is a psychosis born of incarceration, where prisoners also maintain and need the safety of the walls that contains them and imposes regimentation and ennui.
It's only expression of physical power can be through feminine manipulation.
It uses female sexual specialization as method, its practice, while idolizing the masculine it has rejected, or placed on a pedestal - God, Humanity, State, (1), as a penis symbol, an erection.
It's only access to power is through association, standing behind the alpha, which is always an icon, or abstractions cleansed of all his worldly imperfections.
Reproduction is also noetic - it spreads through linguistic intercourse, it impregnates minds taking over their bodies.
Proxies - zombies, brains infected by a dis-ease.
only through proxies do they engage world.
Only through famous philosophers do they speak of the world that surrounds them, engulfs them intimately.

Nihilism memes wanting to become genes - or words wanting to convert to deeds....but in the conversion they contradict themselves, they must contradict their own ideal, their own principles, because the objective world cares not about subjective interpretations of it.
World is not changed by perspective. It is organism that changes in relation to world, and if the discrepancy between perspective and world is large enough this "change" means death.

Psychosis, as we find it on ILP, for example, is a result of mind coming in contact with world, after it has been cocooned, sheltered, for a long time - this forced contact breaks it, if it dies not kill it. Subjectivity so out of tune with objective world that a small taste is shocking, life-threatening, sanity at a balance.
This is why such minds need the protective shield of a herd - multitudes to create a flesh & blood cocoon, like schooling, or flocking.
I've talked about this elsewhere....how the ambition, the only goal, for such minds is to find their way to the center of a huge group, as far away from the world beyond as possible.
This is what they call "power". To be at the center of attention, of the herd, protected, sheltered,distanced from reality, in your own private world, which the others reinforce and participate in.

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PostSubject: Re: Power Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:31 am

Two forms of power:

1. Natural. This form of power is non-living and refers to non-life: the four elements, earth, water, air, fire. Non-life is powerful first by Gravity. A boulder has more mass and weight than a human, can crush and kill a human by falling upon him. Earth = Nature. The foundation of life is Natural. Life relies and depends upon Nature, to live. Without earth, gravity, and 'natural' forces man cannot live. Thus all life is dependent upon non-life. Thus the "power" of nature has no ego, no self, no motivation. Man interprets nature as 'Cruel' in its objectivity. Nature is most deadly of all, to mankind, and all living organisms, especially those that cannot adapt, and are "in the way" of natural events. An erupting volcano does not "care" all the organisms in its way. Non-life is more powerful than life, in this fashion, in the sense that seemingly "random" natural events can spell doom for a wide swath of creatures who thought they were safe, but obviously, were not so.

2. Artificial. Eventually organisms developed intelligence, began to become conscious, and later on began to predict Nature to higher and higher degrees. Those organisms which predicted the most, furthest, and best, were "rewarded" by success, and success means higher fitness, survivability, and thriving (reproduction, hedonism). Humanity stands above all other creatures on the food chain, on earth, today. Thus intelligence represents an "overturn" of natural power. This is called "artificial power" when at some point, instead of mankind adapting to nature, an imbalance is created, and "nature adapts to mankind". Man creates civilization. Ants create colonies. Many species of life eventually regulate portions of environments to their own survivability. Can all the ants on planet earth go extinct? All the birds? All the fish? All the humans? Probably not.

Now nature lacks the ability to kill *ALL* the individuals and members of a specie. A volcano can wipe out some ants, some fish, some mammals, some humans, but not ALL. And because nature lacks the ability to kill ALL the individuals of a specie, its power becomes Artificial and Unnatural. Artifice is the point at which an evolving organism, and its specie (type), create a new feedback loop upon nature. Changing nature, environments, and even material elements "to our own liking", and perhaps changing nature so far as to become too uninhabitable for other organisms. This is the threat of "global warming", "climate change", and other "manmade extinctions". Mankind is "overcoming" nature on many fronts, or may have overcome nature on a metaphysical level.

Artificial power has a lot to do with nihilism and "Words". When mankind and humanity advance so far, there becomes confusion between natural power (objective world, in the wild) and artificial power (subjective world, of human civilization).
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PostSubject: Re: Power Today at 10:03 pm

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