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PostSubject: What is Philosophy? Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:54 pm

Has philosophy become spiritualism, and idealism?
The so called philosopher as a hybrid of part scientist and part artist tends to favour one side over the other, creating an imbalance.
For some it is a rational, cold, mathematical method, similar to the science that springs out of philosophy, and for others it becomes an esoteric, psychological idealistic pursuit of what is called spiritual connections to existence.
We may divide the two tendencies as Apollonian and Dionysian applying Nietzsche's metaphors, or masculine and feminine attitudes beginning from a human biological psychosomatic foundation.
If we must go further then we have to recognize the first, in blue as starting from the physical and then expanding into the metaphysical, and the the second in green starts from the metaphysical and then proceeds to root itself in the physical.
If we place it within Satyr's metaphors then the first is a Bottom<>Up method, and the second a Top<>Down method.
That's not to say that there aren't mixtures of variations of the two, but there is always one that dominates over the other.
In psychological terms we can place the first in the exoteric category and the second in the esoteric.  

The categories divide as such...

First Category                 Second Category
Realism..........................................Idealism
Pragmatism....................................Theory
Reason/Logic..................................,Emotion/Intuition
Action...........................................Semiology - language (words/numbers), art
Phenomenon..................................Noumenon
Body.............................................Mind

Nihilism is the separation of the two sides where the second usurps the first and erupts in a creative free-for-all limited only my the demands of its own survival which necessitates communication. This makes the word its only 'reality', and the dictionary the only external authority it reluctantly submits to.
As the illusion of 'freedom', infected with self-aggrandizement, the desire to deal with mortality by declaring one's self a God, ego can only justify its self-restraint in the face of its own reproductive needs.
The Tower of Babel is stopped by the ego. In order to feed its hunger for power, for energy, it must admit its dependence on others as a means toward an end, and the most efficient/effective way to dominate others is through words.
Nihilism being the detachment form the world only has symbols as its way to spread its field of effect.
Nihilism begins as a reaction to the real, the first category, and then settles on the second category either completely rejecting the first, or selectively sampling from it. Whether completely, or partially the first is detached from the second, and the second is where it lays its claim, only using the first to support what it likes in the second.
I used the metaphor of the seesaw.      

But this is not another thread about Nihilism and how it has shaped the last man, the modern man, this is about philosophy itself.

In the original Greek the term philosophy [φιλοσοφία] means "friend of wisdom"...not 'lover' of wisdom.
The distinction is important.
To love is to be taken over by an irrational instinctual, uncontrollable passion, rooted in list, the libido, and vanishes just as quickly as it emerges.
To be a friend is to be aware of the others good and bad points, as they relate to an average or to an ideal, or in relation to self.
Know Thyself is also important because it determines judgments made.
To be a friend is to have a rational, pragmatic understanding of other, and of self.
The degree to which this is corrupted by emotion, lust, or passion determines the degree where it veers towards lust/love.
Friendship being the weaker but more durable,of the two.

Now, the ideal would be a Hellenic balance, where the first category and the second are in near absolute harmony.

In Nihilism the imbalance is towards the second, which dominates, sometimes to the point of totally dismissing the first.
Nihilism is entirely idealistic - noetic. It can only survive as theory, as abstractions, as beautiful, seductive, positive or negative, words.

If we take my position that the cosmos, reality, is counter-intuitive because intuition is an ordering whereas reality, the world, is fluctuation, interacting patterns and non-patterns (random/chaos) then we are left with the use of philosophy as an artistic science or a scientific art, where science deals with the first category and art with the second, and the artist becomes the nexus of the two - the mind/body, connected by the nervous system from where words emerge and refer back to.
If we go too far one way, towards the first category we become cold calculating order obsessed minds losing the appreciation of the intangible, and if we go too far towards the second category then we get carried away by our fantasies, on the wings of our symbols/words.
One makes our lives mundane, and the other profane - one obsesses over materialism, and the other over idealism.
The key to a Hellenic balance is to begin in the first, and then rooted upon it, expand towards the second, without losing contact with the first.
Losing contact with the earth you will float up into the noetic realm where Nihilism thrives.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:09 pm

Everything that makes a life especially worth living exists in the second category, yet to be nailed down by science. I agree though there needs to be an interaction between the two categories for the first one is severely limiting. Starting there, 1st cat., you are but a computer that is able to move in a robotic fashion.
Nothing more, but that is not our reality. We start as more, as a combination of both categories and it is up to each individual to act, feel, emote, transcend.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:14 pm

What words do I need to connect for you Satyr so our argument may begin where you are most comfortable?

Sorry for being snippy, but when you write that honesty matters and we share a written exchange in earnest, then you erase it, erasing the past as if honesty and the past matter not, then we're going to rumble. Honesty only matters when it suits you?
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:13 am

Positive Pollyanna wrote:
What words do I need to connect for you Satyr so our argument may begin where you are most comfortable?

Sorry for being snippy, but when you write that honesty matters and we share a written exchange in earnest, then you erase it, erasing the past as if honesty and the past matter not, then we're going to rumble.  Honesty only matters when it suits you?
Honesty is shared...not flaunted.
What did I erase, dear?
I was trying to protect you fro, snooping eyes. You got all quiet when others arrived, I figured you didn't want to share.
I have nothing to hide.What was in what was erased that did not suit me, dear?
On this forums we do not derail every thread so that it all becomes a confused mess, like on ILP.
You wish to address something in particular, start a thread, or post it i the chat box.

This thread is about philosophy.

Back on topic...

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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:18 am

Positive Pollyanna wrote:
Everything that makes a life especially worth living exists in the second category, yet to be nailed down by science.  I agree though there needs to be an interaction between the two categories for the first one is severely limiting.  Starting there, 1st cat., you are but a computer that is able to move in a robotic fashion.
Nothing more, but that is not our reality.  We start as more, as a combination of both categories and it is up to each individual to act, feel, emote, transcend.
Like a compute cold and objective, accumulating data/information - unlike a computer, spewing out dates and events, like Turd, when you also are cool and objective in discovering patterns in the data/information to give them meaning.

Most Moderns adopt meaning from others. They are given meaning.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:53 am

Philosophy as the discipline of finding meaning

Meaning: the connections between patterns or congruity of patterns.
Another way to think of it is as the relationship between phenomena via a noetic connection, where noetic means symbol/word referring to an abstraction.

The mind may give meaning or discover it as part of nature''s order, or a part of human symbol abstractions, social artifices/conventions.

Giving meaning is easier, and part of Nihilism's detached delusions.
We go back, once more, to the ancients, the Greeks, with their conception of aletheia, corrupted by the Latin as veritas, and further misunderstood with the Anglo-Saxon word 'truth'.

A-lethiea {αληθεια} literally interpreted means un-forgetting: Lethe being the mythological river of forgetfulness mortals pass when they die to enter Hades.
All metaphorical, of course.
The Greeks had a unique, to Pagans, understanding of what is 'truth'.
It was, for them, something re-called, re-membered, re-turned to consciousness.

We begin from their understanding to return our own modern dis-eased understanding back to health.
Meaning, therefore, means to discover, un-cover, connections in the apparent.
To give one's own life meaning means to connect one's own existence to this already present relationship of phenomena - it does not mean, to invent whatever you like, using your fantasies, to dream, to connect your noumena back to your noumena, in a self-referential solipsism which is what Nihilism is. To give meaning to your life is to weave through the unwanted and reconnect with the wanted, desired, already in existence as phenomena, already present, as manifestations of past.

Meaning is the un-covering of how phenomena, patterns in congruity, relate to each other, and to you, to your own noetic interpretations. The interpretation are not independent from the phenomena, for this would be delusion, or detachment from reality.

Each symbol, word, has a particular meaning, because it relates to a particular relationship between phenomena, or congruities of patterns.
Most Moderns practice "philosophy" as they practice day-dreaming.
The words they use refer to noumena that have no relationship to anything outside human brains, and in the best case refer to how noumena relate to other noumena, with no connection to phenomena. Such meaning only mater in relation to the participants sharing the same abstractions, the same noumena, and are meaningless outside their relationship.
If we were to give such a connection meaning it would be political and/or psychosomatic.
It is a connection given meaning by how the individuals relate to each other.

Though this is part of philosophy it is partial, because philosophy must also connect all life, whether it can or does share the same noumena, and connect it all to non-living patterns and congruities. Proper philosophy must incorporate into its wisdom the entirely of relationships, and give it all meaning, in other words it must describe how patterned and non-patterned interactivity relate to each other, or how phenomena connect.
The philosopher's mind is the conduit finding, not constructing, these relationships - his noumenon, if it is accurate, lucid, is the link between phenomena.

From this we can now understand why sentences using abstractions, such as the 'absolute' can describe relationships, factual connections between ephemeral phenomena, but this does not constitute evidence of an absolute.
Words as representations of noumena, are the nervous system's expression of esoteric processes. Words used are connectors between phenomena through the brain of the observer, where the noumenon, the abstraction, resides.
All words refer to are these relationships.






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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:20 pm

To be honest, I'm not sure what philosophy exactly is. When people ask me the question, I don't have a ready response. I simply talk to them for an hour of conversation, using logic, and various interesting banter. I suppose the logic, deductions, and interesting banter is the philosophy itself. I suppose that is my philosophy.

I have narrowed it down to three core values, beauty, fun, and sustenance. If something lacks all three values it is worthless. Beauty, referring to aesthetics, culture, taste, opulence, harmony, extravagance, honor, and secret revealing. A kind of harmony between vision and feeling, an emotion with structure, eaten, but yet fluff. Fun, referring to action, game, structure, conflict, challenge, nobility, glory, excitement, humor, sadomasochism, freedom, and victory. Sustenance refers to the avoiding of torments, for instance avoiding starvation or drowning. Eating food is sustenance, but truth and technology is sustenance, tractors plow the farm, computers let us research disease, and truth lets us find out the reincarnation equation to find out where we go when we die, to avoid potential torments. So I suppose the best philosophy would encompass all three, beauty, fun, and sustenance. The equation of space is meant to simplify, so I suppose philosophy's purpose is to simplify natural phenomenon in a kind of algorithm for easy access to navigate the phenomenon to harvest the best existence.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:25 pm

Really...so you completely dismiss my post?
OK


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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:27 pm

I was simply answering your question, giving my perspective on my views of What is philosophy. Take it or leave it.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:28 pm

So, philosophy for you is the study and promotion of aesthetic hedonism?

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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:33 pm

Satyr wrote:
So, philosophy for you is the study and promotion of aesthetic hedonism?

I was afraid you'd say this. No I do not support hedonism, but balance. Sustenance is required, but excessive sustenance has the reverse effect of being sustenance.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:08 pm

In relation to your original post, my views are this. The core goods, are beauty, fun, and sustenance. But some contrast is needed for beauty, or else it may become Rapunzel in Castle syndrome. But generally, beauty is sided 95% to 5%. This is the main drive behind culture and excellence, you cannot suffer from too much culture. Mostly, people complain about the ghetto and degenerate aesthetics, but rarely do they suffer hedonistic effects from too much scenic drives through nature. The type of beauty I uphold is both princess beauty, but I also like wolves and demon beauty, as well at the beauty of giant sci-fi mechs and mining complexes. Generally this type of beauty is not associated with the definition of most people's idea of beauty.

Sustenance, relates to the core functionality of it. Nihilism is when a group of people get together (usually leaders, liberals, pen-pushers, etc.) get together and make random rules, but the rules are based on flawed equations, the equation of space I mentioned earlier. Their minds do not follow the laws of physics, and so the rules they make often come out as flawed and non-sensical. When nihilism is applied to farming and civilization, the cogs fail to work and then civilization is lost.

In terms of neural sense, too much sustenance is a hedonism, a burning out of neurons and sense. Too little reason and a misunderstanding of physics, will result in a failed society where outcomes are no longer tied to physical qualities, gayness is perceived as an equally favorable outcome as straightness, because their equations do not input importance of female beauty, they cannot objectively enter either the gay or straight consciousness and that is why I can see things most people cannot, I can objectively say the female form is superior to the male form.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:10 pm

The first post reminds me of the saying -

Men, love of truth
Women, truth of love

-

There is no inherent value in anything.
We attribute it to things.

Life seems to also be creative. It has to always create itself anew. It's what being alive does, moving against the increase of entropy.
Since just making a copy of itself is not good enough because of entropy and imperfection which would slowly but surely destroy the life-form if it was merely trying to tread water, life needs to move beyond of what it is.
It must find within itself a path to a higher order.
This path is not just rooted within an organism but is also influenced and dependent on the environment. Not just anything is possible, not realistically (high enough probability) anyway.

And this organic process which is found in all life is for man (among some more than others) also present on a self-aware level of cognitive function.
One large part of it is understanding reality - 'truth of love'. And another large part of this is understanding what we value - 'truth of love'.

Both are intertwined because understanding what we value, understanding ourselves, is also dependent on our understanding of reality. It's not good enough to just value what we value if we wouldn't do so if we had a better understanding of the world and thus also ourselves which is partly dependent on the former. Likewise, understanding reality very objectively is not good enough if we are not attributing values and have hierarchies of them. Sounds to me like cowardice might be a major reason for that. A thinking in the way of "What if I might be wrong?".

Or in short,
Courage + Intelligence.


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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:19 pm

Life, is a transmorphing, a shapeshifting of fluids.

Valuing, refers to a recursive loop in the mind, a reference to forms, memory. Memory being a cloning of external forms.
Valuing is said to be positive if there are "feel good" chemicals associated with it, said to be negative if there are stressors associated to the form.

The stressors are needed in order to avoid a burning out hedonism, an over-goodness. Conflict is needed in both films and Valhalla. However the same also applies, too many stressors, is an over-bad, and has the same negative effects of hedonism.

For some reason I can't explain, actions which are in accordance and harmony with Nature make us feel good to our consciousness. Life can be beautiful if the parameters are in a balance, and the journey through life can be beautiful. If we were only in one scene, and never moved anywhere, it would be the same effect as burnt out hedonism. This movement, this ordered process is the illusion of freedom. White noise chaos and monotony is the opposite of this illusion.

The flow itself, is the order, stone castles are made to avoid white noise entropy, monotony. The fixed structure of the castle is precisely why it is a flow, otherwise it would be white noise, no flow at all. Near the castle it is implied that future movement will occur, so there is no emotional loss of perceived freedom.

Beauty feels good if we don't dwell on it too long. If we dwell on it, we begin to realize our positive emotions are not inherently valuable, and hedonism's effects begin to take root.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:21 pm

The Fighting Spirit, is a mind constantly fighting itself and others, constantly debating and organizing thought heirachies. These kinds of minds have courage and are the innovaters and thinkers.

It is due to the laziness, cowardice and non-competitiveness, of the female that finding an innovative female is rare.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:34 pm

Also, I would suppose philosophy would be indeed meaning finding, as opposed to meaning making, but since creation is simply the rearrangements of elements, the difference between meaning finding and meaning making, is simply meaning finding is a cloning and rearrangement of patterns stored in a manner which will reproduce those patterns, and meaning making is creating a sister of patterns, rather than a direct clone, which may or may not match to future outcomes of patterns. So I would suppose there may be no clear difference between the goal of philosophy and science, which is to analyze and absorb all complex phenomenon and to attempt to simplify them into algorithms accessible in immediate memory.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:52 pm


OWTH wrote:
So I would suppose there may be no clear difference between the goal of philosophy and science, which is to analyze and absorb all complex phenomenon and to attempt to simplify them into algorithms accessible in immediate memory.

That's your goal perhaps.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:04 am

Word Definition = an established meaning given to a word, or a combination of words.
Meaning being the relationship between noumena, either in reference to phenomena, or not.
A definition is a conventional application of these relationships, so as to permit communication to occur.
What is transmitted from one mind to another, using symbols/words, is these socially established relationships simplified/generalized into a singular abstraction = concept.
It is in this reduction that the concept retains its vagueness, permitting each mind to interpret each separate abstraction, participating in the relationship of meaning, in whatever manner suits his desired outcome.

Based on what was stated about 'meaning' the relationship between patterns may be external, referring to congruities of patterns participating in a phenomenon, or internal, referring to noetic relationships of abstractions with no references outside the mind, or to external relationships as underlying the perceived - theoretical concepts, such as vibrating strings in String Theory, or a combination of the two.

Imagination = Concepts lacking an external reference, or those that are combinations of external phenomena, are given an image, a symbol, by the mind to facilitate their conceptualization.
The mind imagines, when it lacks an image of the apparent, that which is made present as a manifestation of past.
Fantasy = An image constructed inside the mind by combing images drawn from phenomena, and images given to abstractions, or combinations of abstractions, that have no external reference point - are totally noetic.
The mind can also fabricate images, symbols, that contradict the experienced, by overturning it. Because the mind abstracts phenomena by reducing them to noumena (translated them by simplifying/generalizing), it creates vague unities that are absolutes only in their mind, and as such can also be negated using the either/or inherit in the method the brain uses to interpret phenomena - using the on/off neurological switching - itself a simplification of the degree of (inter)action between neural pulse (energy) and neuron (matter).

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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:20 am

Meaningless = The term can be applied to express a relationship between noumena that is missing, or not understood, or to express the absence of phenomena that relate, the relationship exiting only in the mind, as vague, simplified/generalized, abstractions, or symbols with metaphorical utility, and no pragmatic application.
Fantasy, as imagination lacking an external reference, would offer noetic relationship which would be meaningless outside the minds that shares their noetic relationships.

Metaphor = from the Greek meta-phero {μεταφέρω} = to transport, transfer, to carry before.
Pertaining to meaning and philosophy  a metaphor is a description, or a word/symbol, incorporating two, or more, abstractions into a singular concept, referring in pat, or in whole to external patterns, or congruity of patterns = phenomena.
Metaphor combines abstractions to conceptualize them as a single abstraction.
Therein lies its potential to confuse.
Because a concept can be entirely based on interesting external phenomena, and synthesizing them, unifying them into a single abstraction, it can also combine interactions of phenomena with entirely noetic constructs, or dismiss the phenomenon entirely and fabricate a noetic construct based entirely on the combination of noumena, or abstractions with no external reference to phenomena.
A metaphor can be short-hand, or a efficient way to synthesize complex relationship (meanings), or allude to the not perceived theoretical, based on the perceived apparent, or be completely detached from world and simply indulge in fabricating fantastic combinations of what has been experienced and perceived, or, finally, it can be sued to invert the perceived and construct a vagueness conceptualized noumenon that contradicts the experienced and the perceived, making it a nihilistic concept.
The first two are used by philosophy, and the last two by Moderns to pretend they are philosophizing.  
Metaphors in the mind of a modern can be a method of creating alternative realities to the experienced one, or a method of alluding to supernatural, or surreal relationships that only have meaning in the minds of those who hold onto them in the vague manner that they do, so as to propose and promote noetic relationships that have no external meaning.
Cults use such methods to construct and sell to the desperate and feeble a fantastic product, that binds them into a social unity, but has no utility to meaning outside their inter-relating minds.

Meaning is the relationship of noumena being exchanged when there is no phenomena to relate to.  
To fully understand them and the meaning they ascribe to their metaphors you must think as they do, which is already a step towards being indoctrinated into their cult's/group's, mindset.
The metaphor acquires divine meanings, because like the 'god' metaphor it is a contradiction of the real, and if taken literally, and not as a symbol 'carrying forward' theoretical connections between experienced phenomena, they become a shared fantasy.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Philosophy? Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:14 am

Truth = in the Greek sensε of the word aletheia {αλήθεια} means to un-cover, to dis-cover, meaning in the world as a product of a relationship between patterns, or congruities of patterns.
These relationships need not be accepted as limitations, but as obstacles to be traversed, or confronted and/or changed.

To understand is to find patterns in the data.
Transferring (metaphor) this concept to truth and how it relates to world, we can discover a relationship between patterns, as a fact we must take into consideration if we are to deal with world, or create our own relationships to challenge and/or replace them.
Truth describes the already established order, either natural or man-made, in other words it reveals a meaning, in relation to natural order, or in relation to human order.
Challenging natural order, or relationships is to challenge the (inter)actions that make life and challenging possible - this is Nihilism.
Challenging man-made artifices, describing man-made memetic relationships is to will one's own meaning in their place - giving a different 'truth' to the one offered by others.

Distinguishing which is which, and to what degree is a matter of discriminating between noetic relationships and phenomenal relationships which noumena then mirror.

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