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Magnus Anderson

Magnus Anderson

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:34 pm

The problem with the statement is simple: Heraclitus is playing with words. He's changing the standard definition of the word "river". According to the standard definition -- not that of Heraclitus -- Danube is one and the same river even if it changes all of the time. So yes, according to the standard definition, you can step in the same river twice. That's all there is to it.

Let me put it this way: just because something changes all the time does not mean it's not a single thing that persists through time. Satyr is Satyr even though his body undergoes change all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:40 pm

The "simplicity" is all yours.

I think your last statement brought us to a full stop - completion has been achieved.
"Heraclitus was playing with words" and the "standard definition".
That about says it all....absolutely.
I knew you would. I just had to be patient and let that inner "spirit" shine through.

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Magnus Anderson

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:40 pm

Quote :
But mediocre minds cannot know.

You should get off your high horse and start listening to people for once.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:40 pm

Satyr wrote:
The "simplicity is all yours.

I think your last statement brought us to a full stop - completion has been achieved.
"Heraclitus was playing with words" and the "standard definition".
That about says it all....absolutely.
I knew you would. I just had to be patient and let that inner "spirit" shine through.

You are embarrassing yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:44 pm

Ha!!
No, I think I'm finished.
There is no "high horse"....I'm riding an ass....and it named itself Magnus Anderson, for my benefit.
I am "outis".

Meditate over [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if you wish to know my responses.
Nice try. Reboot, and return more formidable.

Ta, Ta,

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Magnus Anderson

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:48 pm

Could have been a decent discussion, as far as I am concerned.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:51 pm

Quote :
For a mediocre mind, this sentence is nonsensical

Not nonsensical, just not true. It's evidently true that you can step twice in the same river. Of course, Heraclitus is saying something else, but he's doing it in a convoluted way.

Ultimately, it's no revelation that rivers and men change all of the time. You just don't need convoluted language to say that.


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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:52 pm

For me it would have been excruciatingly dull.
I'm too old to waste my time so carelessly. I have more interesting things to think on.

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Magnus Anderson

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:53 pm

Who needs English language anyways?
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:55 pm

It facilitates communications between people from across the globe.
It's also a good medium to study how words, and through them thinking, is corrupted through conventional linguistics.

How definitions are corrupted when translated from one language into another...as when the Romans translated Greek into Latin; we being stuck with the Latin-based English translations.

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:58 pm

Right. But you don't need it for you are beyond it. So when someone comes along and tells you that you're misusing English language when you say things such as "motion without a thing that is moving", you can just call them excruciatingly dull and move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 5:59 pm

When they are unable to grasp what language is....yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:03 pm

There is no "thing"...only movement....momentum.
What you call "thing" is a pattern - a sequence...an iterating sequence of energies....interpreted by your mind as an abstraction....an image, then given a symbol/word to represent it.

You are stuck in the interpretation. You see, focusing on "one bottle" so for you "one" is a complete total "thing".
Like one river, and one man stepping into it.
The encompassing dimensional boundary is a theoretical "cutting away" of a part of existence.

Well, you made me say more than I intended.
It's all there in Heraclitus' statement, and in the vid about the "string".

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:10 pm

It's about language. The word "motion" means "a physical object whose position is changing through time". The concept of "motion" is built on top of the concept of "physical object". So when you speak of motion without a physical object that is changing its position, you are talking gibberish.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:14 pm

You are too tired and old, you should go to sleep. I shall choose a younger sparring partner who will make an attempt to defend these stupid ideas of yours.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:19 pm

"Physical" needs qualification. you use it so casually....and you make mistakes.

Matter & Energy are variants of patterns.

What we call "physical" are patterns that move slower, in relation to our body's metabolic rates, determining our brain's processing speeds.
It's not a reference to a complete total "thing"...but to a pattern - energy with a sequence we interpret as a 'thing"
I call it appearance.

The apparent is our interpretation of what is present - presence.
Interpreting requiring a simplification/generalization, converting the dynamic into a static thing - abstraction.
The thing refers to our interpretation, not to that which is outside our mind.

Like with all translations much is lost. like most interpretation much cannot be interpreted accurately, but approximately.
Phenomenon,,,,from the Greek Φαινομενον...that which appears, the apparent.

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:24 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
You are too tired and old, you should go to sleep. I shall choose a younger sparring partner who will make an attempt to defend these stupid ideas of yours.
Ha....kid...I'll feed you triggering insinuations and you play into my game.

You have no clue what I am, or how I got to be this way.
I am "outis," to you, for all intents and purposes.
I am "old and tired," if you wish to think of me in that way.
I am an idiot.....I am anything and everything you want me to be.
I prefer to be under-estimated....always. It opens others up...makes them confident and comfortable.....more willing to expose themselves to me.
I like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:30 pm

Imagine an adult "sparring" with a child.
The adult gains nothing.....but exercise, perhaps. The child gains much more.
The adult quickly becomes bored with the game - there's no challenge. He's not improving.
This is not so, for the child. For it, the adult is a formidable challenge, testing its immature talents and developing strength.

Now, imagine a "trash talking" incredulous child.
How irritating it would be for the adult to spar with such an insolent child.

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:32 pm

I think we all know what a physical object is. Here are some examples: a table, a house, a tree, a mountain, a lion, a man, a car, a bowl, a club and so on. These are all solids. There are also liquids and gases. They are all physical objects.

Motion is the change in the position of a physical object. No physical objects, no motion.
That's English language.

Who wants to preserve English language?
And who wants to replace it with their own?

Motion without a thing that moves?
Really?

It's not that people don't understand your "metaphors" it's that they find your language repugnant.
And it's not even your language that is repugnant, but the fact that it makes you unable to understand what other people are saying.
That's the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:38 pm

Satyr wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:
You are too tired and old, you should go to sleep. I shall choose a younger sparring partner who will make an attempt to defend these stupid ideas of yours.
Ha....kid...I'll feed you triggering insinuations and you play into my game.

You have no clue what I am, or how I got to be this way.
I am "outis," to you, for all intents and purposes.  
I am "old and tired," if you wish to think of me in that way.
I am an idiot.....I am anything and everything you want me to be.
I prefer to be under-estimated....always. It opens others up...makes them confident and comfortable.....more willing to expose themselves to me.
I like that.

Thanks for letting me know, I appreciate it.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:40 pm

Satyr wrote:
Imagine an adult "sparring" with a child.
The adult gains nothing.....but exercise, perhaps. The child gains much more.
The adult quickly becomes bored with the game - there's no challenge. He's not improving.
This is not so, for the child. For it, the adult is a formidable challenge, testing its immature talents and developing strength.

Now, imagine a "trash talking" incredulous child.
How irritating it would be for the adult to spar with such an insolent child.

Don't be so defensive, Satyr. Forget about my nasty remarks and return to the subject -- or just go to sleep. You don't have to tell us that you can spar with me. WE ALL KNOW THAT. You won't lose reputation just because I said you are too tired and old. Just cut the crap and let me spar with someone who can stick to the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:47 pm

This is where your brain gets stuck - can't conceptualize.
Magnus Anderson wrote:

Motion without a thing that moves?
Really?

It's a common limitation. Similar to how Jaynes described the Bicameral Mind...it's a cognitive step towards advancement. You cannot take the step...don't know how.
Stuck in noetic contrivances.
Your mind is baffled by the idea of "String Theory" where there is, in fact, no string.
Why use the metaphor at all?
Your mind cannot process the concept.
It needs a "thing" that is acting....a thing-in-itself. Something to wrap itself around.

No matter.

Plenty of young lads, like yourself, on KT.
Have at it.

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Magnus Anderson

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:50 pm

Now you're talking like a true mystic.
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 22, 2019 6:57 pm

No Being....only Becoming...only process....only patters, when matter/energy is at work - life being a kind of synthesis of patterns.




Heidegger defined "space" as "possibility"...implying that matter/energy are probabilities within the expanding plane of possibilities.
Matter/Energy being patterns - processes of repeating sequences.
If space is possibility, then a probability is a sequence of dimensional probabilities.
The rhythm and speed of the sequence determining its "eidos" - kind.
It's presence....which is then interpreted by a conscious mind as "appearance"

It's fascinating when minds that find Nietzsche's "will to power" not so mystical, consider others "mystical"
Was "will" not mystical for you?
Is there a thing called "will", and what of "power" is that a thing?

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 23, 2019 1:16 pm

Fro an absolutist emoter, everything is a validation of the "absolute" - whether he calls it "god" or "order" or "prime mover" or "one" or "nil" etc.

For them "eternal return" is synonymous with an eternal afterlife - the same retuning eternally.
If a slight modification is added, they reject the premises as "not ontological", or as too mystical.

They have no issues with Nietzsche's use of it as a measure of the individual's attitude - his/her real appreciation and knowledge and understanding of self.
so, let's do the same with the concept of "free-will" -accepting the insinuation that by "will to power" Nietzsche did not mean the individual's will, but god's will, an  external will - shedding a new "light" on "her psychology".
Let us use free-will as a measure of an individual's actual herd-psychology.
An attitude desiring to enslave itself within a community, lorded over by a supreme protector....or wanting to disappear within an external order so as to dilute its essence in a uniform oneness.

Let us use the concept as he sued "eternal return", to measure an individuals willingness to sacrifice self-determination for survival, or for safety.
We need not ask an individual what he or she thinks of himself/herself, but only ask them their positions of "eternal return" and "free-will".
Without realizing it they will expose their real self-appreciation.....expose it from where they've hidden it: beneath pseudo-intellectualism, deference to icons/idols, and self-aggrandizing, self-flattering, self-concealing proclamations.
Degree of hyperbole will measure the degree of their self-abasement.

Binary poles of our measuring system: 1/0
Absolute ONE/Absolute NIL

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 23, 2019 3:14 pm

Quote :
Heidegger defined "space" as "possibility"

To define a symbol (such as a word) means to determine the set of all phenomena that can be represented by that word.

Definitions have nothing to do with the world that lies outside of the world of language. The sole purpose of definitions is to establish the manner in which words can be used.

Martin Heidegger can define words any way he wants because there is no right way to define words. However, there are consequences. Namely, by doing so, you isolate yourself from the world that surrounds you. You make it difficult for others to understand you and you make it difficult for yourself to understand others.

That said, the word "space" is not synonymous with "possibility". They mean two completely different things.

You did this with the word "existence". Now you're doing it with the word "possibility". All the while hiding under the banner of "metaphorical language".
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 23, 2019 4:29 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 23, 2019 4:41 pm

There is nothing mystical about any of the following:

1) a physical object that is infinitely divisible
2) a physical object that is finitely divisible
3) a physical object with an infinite lifespan (i.e. that exists for all eternity)
4) a physical object with a finite lifespan (i.e. that exists for a finite period of time)
5) a physical object that changes all of the time
6) a physical object that never changes
7) a physical object that always moves
8 ) a physical object that is completely still (i.e. never moves)
9) a totality of existence that is finite in space and time
10) a totality of existence that is infinite in space and time
11) infinitely divisible time
12) infinitely divisible space
13) a movement made out of an infinite number of steps (Aristotle's concept of actual/completed infinity)
14) a movement made out of a finite number of steps

The word "absolute" means "total". It does not mean any of the above. Using it as a noun looks strange but I guess it can be interpreted to mean "any physical object that is total in some way". In this sense, a glass of water that is full is an absolute, because it is total in the sense of being full of water. Similarly, a physical object that exists at every point in time (that is eternal) is an absolute because it is total in the sense of existing at every point in time. But even then, the claim that NO absolute exists is false, because obviously, some do.

So what's happening is you're defining the word "absolute" in your own particular way with little to no regard as to how other people define it. The consequence is: you fail to understand other people.

Here's a list of phenomena that Satyr designates with the word "absolute":

1) A physical object that is finitely divisible
2) A physical object that never changes
3) A human being who has zero needs during the entirety of his existence
4) A human being who has needs but whose needs are completely satisfied at every point of his existence
5) A human being who has reached the peak of development and who can no longer improve upon himself

Now, when he says "There are no absolutes" what he means is that not a single thing that is on this list exists. To check whether you are in agreement with him, just go through this list and answerthe question "Does this thing exist?" If you answer NO to every item in the list, you are in agreement with Satyr.

Take me, for example. I can agree that none of the above exists in the real world.

However, that's not enough for Satyr to agree with you that you agree with him. If you don't speak the way he speaks, he'll think you're disagreeing with him.

He will conclude the following about you:

1) You think you are perfect
2) You think you are God
3) You are a mediocre mind
4) You believe in God
5) You can't understand metaphors
6) You are autistic because you can't understand metaphors
7) You take words literally

The word "metaphor" being yet another word he's raping (as if everything is a metaphor and not just one out of many different types of figure of speech.)
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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 23, 2019 4:47 pm

If we take Heidegger's definition as a starting premiss then space = possibility, and what we call matter/energy, or order = probability.
Now the Greek energy is made clear = vibration/oscillation of possibility, i.e., space.
Therefore, probability describes a sequence the increases the possibility of interaction, decreasing every other possibility.
The sequence describes a movement/momentum from one dimension to another, in a specific rhythms and speed, where "dimension" qualifies possibility.
So a specific kind of matter is interpreted as an appearance, which is how the organic mind translates probability; darkness being its inability to make such a translation.
now we see the pragmatic application of probability, as the projection of probable interactions of a given phenomenon.
The organic body, experienced on the surface as a membrane/exoskeleton, represents the organic projection of its probable interactions with its environment.
the internal is hidden - because perception, in this case, uses light as the mediating phenomenon/energy.

How light interacts with organism, or matter, affects how it then interact with sense organ, determining how it is interpreted/translated into a form the organism can process.

The absolute implies an infinite set of probabilities, or possibilities, depending on if it is described as absolute positive, or absolutely negative - a singularity or infinite space/time.
A singularity implies the encompassing of all possibilities/probabilities within it.
Both are nullifications of the experienced.


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PostSubject: Re: Absolute Absolute - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 23, 2019 4:50 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
There is nothing mystical about any of the following:

1) a physical object that is infinitely divisible
2) a physical object that is finitely divisible
3) a physical object with an infinite lifespan (i.e. that exists for all eternity)
4) a physical object with a finite lifespan (i.e. that exists for a finite period of time)
5) a physical object that changes all of the time
6) a physical object that never changes
7) a physical object that always moves
8 ) a physical object that is completely still (i.e. never moves)
9) a totality of existence that is finite in space and time
10) a totality of existence that is infinite in space and time
11) infinitely divisible time
12) infinitely divisible space
13) a movement made out of an infinite number of steps (Aristotle's concept of actual/completed infinity)
14) a movement made out of a finite number of steps

The word "absolute" means "total". It does not mean any of the above. Using it as a noun looks strange but I guess it can be interpreted to mean "any physical object that is total in some way". In this sense, a glass of water that is full is an absolute, because it is total in the sense of being full of water. Similarly, a physical object that exists at every point in time (that is eternal) is an absolute because it is total in the sense of existing at every point in time. But even then, the claim that NO absolute exists is false, because obviously, some do.

So what's happening is you're defining the word "absolute" in your own particular way with little to no regard as to how other people define it. The consequence is: you fail to understand other people.

Here's a list of phenomena that Satyr designates with the word "absolute":

1) A physical object that is finitely divisible
2) A physical object that never changes
3) A human being who has zero needs during the entirety of his existence
4) A human being who has needs but whose needs are completely satisfied at every point of his existence
5) A human being who has reached the peak of development and who can no longer improve upon himself

Now, when he says "There are no absolutes" what he means is that not a single thing that is on this list exists. To check whether you are in agreement with him, just go through this list and answerthe question "Does this thing exist?" If you answer NO to every item in the list, you are in agreement with Satyr.

Take me, for example. I can agree that none of the above exists in the real world.

However, that's not enough for Satyr to agree with you that you agree with him. If you don't speak the way he speaks, he'll think you're disagreeing with him.

He will conclude the following about you:

1) You think you are perfect
2) You think you are God
3) You are a mediocre mind
4) You believe in God
5) You can't understand metaphors
6) You are autistic because you can't understand metaphors
7) You take words literally

The word "metaphor" being yet another word he's raping (as if everything is a metaphor and not just one out of many different types of figure of speech.)
I'm Sorry....I cannot regress to a point in my past when I could enjoy engaging in such dialogues.
I've moved ahead, and find it tedious to return there and begin anew, for the benefit of another.
I've spent years discussing these issues with many minds - some gifted some retarded....and will not waste more time on what has been dealt with.

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Know Thyself :: AGORA-
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