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PostSubject: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:34 pm

Truely the birth of civilization stems from that of the creation of drama and theater.

Did civilization procede drama and theater or did they both procede civilization to which it was built upon?

Afterall civilization and all facets of human society is nothing but a stage full of scripts, plots, narratives, and processions of orchestras.

It is a place full of actors where all of them wear various masks and disguises.

It is a place of various protagonists and antagonists interacting with each other.

What is amusing is that the actors are their own captivated audience.

In this theater the real and the unreal often becomes blurred.






Last edited by TheJoker on Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:43 pm

10 stars to the scraggly scally-waggon man wearing heavy black eye-liner What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:44 pm

Poison IV wrote:
10 stars to the scraggly scally-waggon man wearing heavy black eye-liner What a Face

Only captain Jack Sparrow can get away with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:31 pm

Theatre usually involves acts, real life doesn't. Theatre involves scripts, real life involves certain conceptual limits on what language we use, but not to the point of memorised lines. We are capable of breaking the rules which would result in the play being sabotaged if we were only in an act, whereas the rulebreaking in real life can lead to new and novel ways of interacting and even expand the limits of how we arrange things in our minds.
Theatre also involves some plot, and a writer, which real life doesn't. Theatre is written with an audience in mind, whereas I find that in real life, the best bits often are missing an audience.

You can pretend that everybody wears a mask and has some deeper clockwork which we cannot fathom; but in actuality, spend enough time with people and you see that they have tells. Their faces and bodies and voices reveal all. Tells that they aren't acting out. They are not some character, they are not reading from a script, they are spontaneous and just go on what they experience. It is a matter of whether you actually interact with the person or whether you are trying to observe them like an audience member. If you look at life like a play, then sure, you'll be bound to find parts that fit a script and have a narrative. But when you actually put yourself in there, I mean, spend time with people, talk to them, not just watch them, then you start to see them as people and not vessels carrying other people's words. Sure, on a level, we all just memorise words and actions and apply them to situations we think they are appropriate for, but it is always improvised.

What kind of character and in what play are you acting Joker?
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:35 pm

Lol @ you...

And we can thank Hollywood Like a Star @ heaven
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:36 pm

I know EXACTLY what I'm doing!
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:37 pm

Why'd you leave the keys up on the table?

You wanted to!
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:35 am

MonoExplosion wrote:
Theatre usually involves acts, real life doesn't. Theatre involves scripts, real life involves certain conceptual limits on what language we use, but not to the point of memorised lines. We are capable of breaking the rules which would result in the play being sabotaged if we were only in an act, whereas the rulebreaking in real life can lead to new and novel ways of interacting and even expand the limits of how we arrange things in our minds.
Theatre also involves some plot, and a writer, which real life doesn't. Theatre is written with an audience in mind, whereas I find that in real life, the best bits often are missing an audience.

You can pretend that everybody wears a mask and has some deeper clockwork which we cannot fathom; but in actuality, spend enough time with people and you see that they have tells. Their faces and bodies and voices reveal all. Tells that they aren't acting out. They are not some character, they are not reading from a script, they are spontaneous and just go on what they experience. It is a matter of whether you actually interact with the person or whether you are trying to observe them like an audience member. If you look at life like a play, then sure, you'll be bound to find parts that fit a script and have a narrative. But when you actually put yourself in there, I mean, spend time with people, talk to them, not just watch them, then you start to see them as people and not vessels carrying other people's words. Sure, on a level, we all just memorise words and actions and apply them to situations we think they are appropriate for, but it is always improvised.

What kind of character and in what play are you acting Joker?





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Theatre usually involves acts, real life doesn't.

Ah, but this thing we call civilization is full of assigned roles and acting that revolves around countless fictional caricatures.

Just as game theory suggest that human beings set up societies like competitive games or sports we are all but players acting out in being directed.

What is a field or board of any type of game but a contained stage from which the acting players sport amongst each other on?




Quote :
Theatre involves scripts, real life involves certain conceptual limits on what language we use, but not to the point of memorised lines.

In society the memorised lines plays out in ritualistic displays and routines of the daily social grind.

The scripts is formalized into rules, laws, taboos, and so on.

The socio cultural collective public metanarratives of societies everywhere is the script.

What is in the word culture? Cult. Society is lead by a collective ritualistic socialized cult.

Quote :
We are capable of breaking the rules which would result in the play being sabotaged if we were only in an act, whereas the rulebreaking in real life can lead to new and novel ways of interacting and even expand the limits of how we arrange things in our minds.

Just as a actor is punished for going off script by the director so is any individual within society and civilization only instead of there being one director there so happens to be a countless many all directing in coordination at the same time.

Quote :
Theatre also involves some plot,

The cultural metanarrative is the plot.

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and a writer,

The top managers, leaders, and aristocracy are the writers to which they act as the proceeding director where alll orders of activities is dictated by them.


Quote :
Theatre is written with an audience in mind, whereas I find that in real life, the best bits often are missing an audience.

With this the actors and directors are their own captivated audience in the process of acting.

We even make it a entertainment to watch each other.

Quote :
You can pretend that everybody wears a mask and has some deeper clockwork which we cannot fathom;

There is nothing to pretend. That is the reality of the world we live in.

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but in actuality, spend enough time with people and you see that they have tells. Their faces and bodies and voices reveal all.

Reveal what?

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Tells that they aren't acting out.

Oh, yeah?

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They are not some character, they are not reading from a script, they are spontaneous and just go on what they experience.

Were all characters in a scripted society that makes us all out to be them.

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It is a matter of whether you actually interact with the person or whether you are trying to observe them like an audience member.


How so?


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If you look at life like a play, then sure, you'll be bound to find parts that fit a script and have a narrative.

Life isn't a play. Neither is nature.

Human civilization and societies are because that is how we conceptualize them to be.

The birth of civilization and human societies is one of either theater or drama.


Quote :
But when you actually put yourself in there, I mean, spend time with people, talk to them, not just watch them, then you start to see them as people and not vessels carrying other people's words. Sure, on a level, we all just memorise words and actions and apply them to situations we think they are appropriate for, but it is always improvised.

You obviously have never heard of improvised theater.



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What kind of character and in what play are you acting Joker?

The outcast which is the only character role I seem to know or is ever afforded to me.

I look at everybody around me in astonishment of the absurdities around me from the outside.

As a outcast I'm forced to watch the world around me from a distance because it's all I can do.

I'm cursed to play my role and be a audience member of this sickly charade.





Last edited by TheJoker on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:25 am

MonoExplosion wrote:
But when you actually put yourself in there, I mean, spend time with people, talk to them, not just watch them, then you start to see them as people and not vessels carrying other people's words. Sure, on a level, we all just memorise words and actions and apply them to situations we think they are appropriate for, but it is always improvised.
Indeed, often someone says something said by another, a thing done before, but it means a whole different thing nonetheless.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:30 am

Two individuals here desperately trying to validate their existences as anything other than a delicious ongoing directed fiction.

That's alright boys, keep on trying to cling on for dear life if it helps you sleep at night.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:14 am

TheJoker wrote:
Two individuals here desperately trying to validate their existences as anything other than a delicious ongoing directed fiction.

That's alright boys, keep on trying to cling on for dear life if it helps you sleep at night.
If it is a fiction and that is all anything is, then that is all that is real, and thus it is not a fiction...

But whatever...

It is fair enough to call it an illusion...a fiction... an abstraction of the mind...

Why does that matter Joker?

What should we do?

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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:14 am

Joker is telling us he is estranged from his own nature. He doesn't feel authentic and hence the world appears as an artifice to him. This is undoubtedly the result of some terrible experiences in his childhood.

For some reason I am also reminded of the Dragon.

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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:17 am

TheJoker wrote:
Two individuals here desperately trying to validate their existences as anything other than a delicious ongoing directed fiction.

That's alright boys, keep on trying to cling on for dear life if it helps you sleep at night.

It sounds more like Lilith hit the nail on the head.
Why is civilisation artificial? Because it has actually happened? I just go on what there is, not on some fantastical metaphysical principle which has no grounded being. You try to structure reality as a whole, creating whole narratives and reasons things are the way they are. I just talk to people and get that they are just like me, mostly. Wondering what the big to-do is. It is not validation, thinking that everybody is just going about, doing whatever. Validation would be, thinking that there is a script and that this is an artificial world, and that the real world, the true world, is waiting for you around the corner. One where you get recognised as the great talent that you are.

If you need to pretend that everybody has ulterior motives, and thinks in terms of what's in it for them, that's fine. I think that the extension of sympathy isn't egoistic, but social first. What I mean, is that sympathy for one's family comes before sympathy for yourself. For most people. Perhaps that is too generalised. I am trying to say that perhaps somebody who has experienced the subversion of their sympathy from a family member (say, a father) may find that they have difficulty extending sympathy towards other people in society. They may feel that there are roles which have certain character traits and expectations that are not produced correctly (according to the later imagined script), and thus, the people are only actors, and some are not capable of acting the way they are supposed to. Thus, the whole world is an act, and the people in it are wearing masks. Because they know that how they are in front of some people, is not how they are in front of everybody. However, this is a misunderstanding, based on a bad conceptualisation of what it means to be a person. To be "in society". It is not true that there is a "father" role, being acted by a man. It is true that there is a man who is your father, and however he is, is how your father is, but that is not an indication of what a father should be or shouldn't be. There are certain invented traits that we see on television and the like, that suggest to us, certain people are a certain way. But when we meet these people, in real life, they are as different from each other as from you or me. I am thinking, there are fathers who are barely teenagers, and there are fathers who have sired six or more offspring. Which is playing the role correctly? Both are, or neither, because it is not a role, it is a word that we use to describe a man who has reproduced with a woman (or adopted these days...). Which plays at being the father better between the one who plays with his kids every day, and the one who only manages to see them on the weekends? Again, neither. They are just men, who have children. There is no character archetype that dictates how they should be. Not even in society - the pseudo-archetype arises from actual people, not from "on-high" from the word of God, of society, of civilisation, of a director!
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:04 am

Joker wrote:

Quote :
Theatre usually involves acts, real life doesn't.

Ah, but this thing we call civilization is full of assigned roles and acting that revolves around countless fictional caricatures.

Just as game theory suggest that human beings set up societies like competitive games or sports we are all but players acting out in being directed.

What is a field or board of any type of game but a contained stage from which the acting players sport amongst each other on?

I addressed this in my post above. The roles you speak of, are actually not assigned, but emerge. The fact that there are institutions designed around these emergent concepts doesn't detract from the fact that the people doing their jobs are not acting but are just living.

Game theory doesn't apply to society on a whole. It applies to certain exchanges between individuals, with it's own prescribed laws and logic. I don't see how that is relevant to the world in general. If you are an economist, maybe you would enjoy game theory. But I have heart... Razz Also, not all societies are the same.

A game, in the sense that you are using it, probably involves competitive based one-up-manship (game theory type interactions). Games don't necessarily involve competition. In fact, I would say that the state of play, of playing is not playing according to rules. The rules limit what is possible. Children playing "acting" don't follow rules as such. So what is acting? Children act as wizards and as soldiers and as dogs... There is no rhyme or reason to it. They forget about it and go about their day like it never happened. Maybe that is what the problem is, you take the game too seriously.

Uh... yeah, a field and a board do usually reflect the rules put in place. but those rules don't apply outside of the game and so, are not relevant to society at large.

Quote :

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Theatre involves scripts, real life involves certain conceptual limits on what language we use, but not to the point of memorised lines.

In society the memorised lines plays out in ritualistic displays and routines of the daily social grind.

The scripts is formalized into rules, laws, taboos, and so on.

The socio cultural collective public metanarratives of societies everywhere is the script.

What is in the word culture? Cult. Society is lead by a collective ritualistic socialized cult.

I like your use of an extended metaphor. Formal interaction for you is a grind. You want to improv but you don't know how. You feel you can't because people tend towards the same and similar things, if they find that they work out for the best (game theory). If you don't mind my asking, how many friends do you have? You don't have to answer. And I mean real friends.

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We are capable of breaking the rules which would result in the play being sabotaged if we were only in an act, whereas the rulebreaking in real life can lead to new and novel ways of interacting and even expand the limits of how we arrange things in our minds.

Just as a actor is punished for going off script by the director so is any individual within society and civilization only instead of there being one director there so happens to be a countless many all directing in coordination at the same time.

Not all actors are punished for going off script. Improvisation can result in better takes than scripted rehearsals. You generalise too much; no doubt a part of your ongoing neurosis. Paranoia is another symptom you are showing. Your rape fantasy. Is that based on a hatred of women, or a feeling of impotence? You feel squashed by society, like you've been given a minor role (according to your metaphor), and you wanted the lead. I'm not saying this to be mean or hurt you, I just want to understand. Did you try to fit in when you were younger but found that you were picked last quite often?

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Theatre also involves some plot,

The cultural metanarrative is the plot.
Doesn't exist. Despite your wildest fantasies that there is something more to the world than what you see, there is no single metanarrative. That is a fancy word used to describe the movement of people and their ideas. It is like saying that the universe is moved by God. Putting a totem head at the top of a tower and saying it is imbued with magical powers and that these powers control the world.

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and a writer,

The top managers, leaders, and aristocracy are the writers to which they act as the proceeding director where alll orders of activities is dictated by them.

So you think that the managers are top dogs? What about the creatives who produce their company image for them? Why are you jealous of success? What did you want to be when you were younger? I'm sure there are many answers, but what did you really want to be?

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Theatre is written with an audience in mind, whereas I find that in real life, the best bits often are missing an audience.

With this the actors and directors are their own captivated audience in the process of acting.

We even make it a entertainment to watch each other.

We don't. Some do. You find yourself observing yourself often?

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Quote :
You can pretend that everybody wears a mask and has some deeper clockwork which we cannot fathom;

There is nothing to pretend. That is the reality of the world we live in.

Quote :
but in actuality, spend enough time with people and you see that they have tells. Their faces and bodies and voices reveal all.

Reveal what?

The details about them. It may be inferred from their behaviour, given enough time with them, what they are thinking and feeling. Not exactly, but enough to know when they are feeling certain ways. But that is beside the point. The real point is that you learn how to interact so as to avoid certain reactions. You know how to talk to them, as if they are a person and not some actor.

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Tells that they aren't acting out.

Oh, yeah?
unconscious is not acting, it is only producing (not a show, actual real emotion)

Quote :

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They are not some character, they are not reading from a script, they are spontaneous and just go on what they experience.

Were all characters in a scripted society that makes us all out to be them.

I don't fully understand that sentence. "makes us all out to be them". I think you mean makes us out to be characters... So I will respond as if that is the case, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
This is just your desire for a metanarrative, for some meaning in life, coming through. You don't seem to be able to fathom that society doesn't need some higher order to it in order to exist. Or rather, that we can't just say that there is a higher order and that makes it so. Using the metaphor of a play suggests that you don't like who you are, that your character is not what you would choose, it is what a "director" (ambiguous, authority, omniscient and omnipresent) has chosen for you (and by proxy, it must be the case for all other people too, or else you'd be crazy!)

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It is a matter of whether you actually interact with the person or whether you are trying to observe them like an audience member.


How so?

I tried to explain this a little above. Rather than just going through the motions, actually talk to somebody. I know you just see people as things to take advantage of, but instead of that, why don't you make a real connection? Forget about your metanarrative. Forget that people are acting, and that they are no doubt figuring out how to best you and steal your shit and put you down. Forget that and actually talk to somebody about them and about yourself. You'd find that they are not acting. It's that simple.

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If you look at life like a play, then sure, you'll be bound to find parts that fit a script and have a narrative.

Life isn't a play. Neither is nature.

Human civilization and societies are because that is how we conceptualize them to be.

The birth of civilization and human societies is one of either theater or drama.

I see, I equivolated life and civilisation there. You see them as a dichotomy. Of course! Civilisation restricts you, stops you fulfilling your fantasy, puts you down. Nature, that is your rapist mentality, and your desire for sex no doubt. Your desire to beat these other people. Is it easier to trick and con them if you project yourself into them? Do you really have such little self-respect? You actually hate yourself so much that you have mirrored it onto civilisation!

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But when you actually put yourself in there, I mean, spend time with people, talk to them, not just watch them, then you start to see them as people and not vessels carrying other people's words. Sure, on a level, we all just memorise words and actions and apply them to situations we think they are appropriate for, but it is always improvised.

You obviously have never heard of improvised theater.
then why wouldn't you say that at the beginning? Your narrative involves strict restrictions and rules. You are just grasping at straws. You had no intention of suggesting that people improvise.


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What kind of character and in what play are you acting Joker?

The outcast which is the only character role I seem to know or is ever afforded to me.

I look at everybody around me in astonishment of the absurdities around me from the outside.

As a outcast I'm forced to watch the world around me from a distance because it's all I can do.

I'm cursed to play my role and be a audience member of this sickly charade.

The fact that you are an outcast says a lot. And why is being an outsider not absurd? You use the word "forced"; you are not forced. You could kill yourself or move somewhere else. You don't have a role. You just think you do because you are subscribing to your own metanarrative that you made up in your head. Do you have an STD?
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:55 pm

Joker and Mono

MonoExplosion wrote:
Doesn't exist. Despite your wildest fantasies that there is something more to the world than what you see, there is no single metanarrative. That is a fancy word used to describe the movement of people and their ideas. It is like saying that the universe is moved by God. Putting a totem head at the top of a tower and saying it is imbued with magical powers and that these powers control the world.
I use "meta-narrative" just to mean the personal way of understanding things a particular person has...





MonoExplosion wrote:

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Quote :
Tells that they aren't acting out.

Oh, yeah?
unconscious is not acting, it is only producing (not a show, actual real emotion)
Indeed, a person, THE self included, often has "observations" or passing thoughts, that while they consider how a thing might be one way, they do not act on it, they do not believe it or choose to except such. This shows on the body-language, and is often misinterpreted...

MonoExplosion wrote:
Using the metaphor of a play suggests that you don't like who you are, that your character is not what you would choose, it is what a "director" (ambiguous, authority, omniscient and omnipresent) has chosen for you (and by proxy, it must be the case for all other people too, or else you'd be crazy!)
No i would think he recognizes that their is value to who he is and that he would function well in other particular habitats... the problem perhaps is his resistance to shape-shift to fit into society. He wants society to be changed to him....perhaps

MonoExplosion wrote:
Quote :

Quote :
It is a matter of whether you actually interact with the person or whether you are trying to observe them like an audience member.


How so?

I tried to explain this a little above. Rather than just going through the motions, actually talk to somebody. I know you just see people as things to take advantage of, but instead of that, why don't you make a real connection?
That can be hard to do, one must step past the feeling that society's judgment of them doesn't matter. i am sure he recognizes it doesn't matter but it can be hard to put that into practice and just step out in the open and let it's judging eyes role over you without fear or worry. It is instinctual to feel the judgment, getting over instinct is hard. he has more to make him different and set him apart, most people don't have to do this, they are born average. When he wakes up from this he will be a force to be reckoned with. Maybe he is already stepping in that direction, hence his many movements of thinking he has been so fervently posting on this forum.

Part of getting over the opinions of others is having a "purpose" or "goal" and strong one, that one feels (i guess you could say) "duty" bound to, that makes one look past the opinions of others for the sake of achieving that goal, where one then gets used to how opinions are only temporary.

perhaps the key is to realize that while an opinion happens for a while (unless it is a mainstream recorded instance) people will mostly forget it, or at least if one continues to be the self and do reasonable things, then whatever they do will dilute any embarrassing things they did...


yet I have a feeling he goes through periods where such doesn't matter, periods where it seems too...







MonoExplosion wrote:


The fact that you are an outcast says a lot. And why is being an outsider not absurd? You use the word "forced"; you are not forced. You could kill yourself or move somewhere else. You don't have a role. You just think you do because you are subscribing to your own metanarrative that you made up in your head. Do you have an STD?
I think your reading some strange stuff into it mono...I might be too though...
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:02 pm

I have to side with Joker on this one.

For the rest of you I recommend Alan Watts's take on Hindu culture and its comparison to Western society & globalization :]]
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:06 pm

Poison IV wrote:
I have to side with Joker on this one.

For the rest of you I recommend Alan Watts's take on Hindu culture and its comparison to Western society & globalization :]]
Aren't we all hindu's?...I am...
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:10 pm

Joker I think you are very introspective. ...but you expect others to be as observant/intellectual as you are. They are not. which you may consciously recognize but not so much subconsciously, or at least habitually. I would think that maybe you expect others to see what tells you give, and see what observance you have, and think you think that way, and judge you. So you put effort into disguising your tells... But you don't need to do that so much... most people aren't that observant, and the ones that are aren't so judgmental, because they are used to seeing how fucked up everybody is.


Last edited by Abstract on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Another unintentional edit by abstract: God damit! Embarassed the fucking edit butten is to close...I edited instead of quoted again....I need to pay more attention to that shit...



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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:13 pm

Abstract wrote:
Poison IV wrote:
I have to side with Joker on this one.

For the rest of you I recommend Alan Watts's take on Hindu culture and its comparison to Western society & globalization :]]
Aren't we all hindu's?...I am...

Nope.

They're more honest.

The West is a bunch of liars.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:10 pm

Poison IV wrote:
fake their happiness and follow the cue of what someone else tells them happiness is
thats a waste indeed, that doesn't mean one can't meat half way though. to grow where they can to fit life. there are laws of the universe... a person can't expect to shoot up heroin everyday and not get addicted...that's just eh way it is... its worth trying to fix the exterior but working on the interior where it is found to be worth doing is worth it.


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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:26 pm

What does that have to do with finding personal happiness? :]

I mean in a way obviously you can't know what you want unless you see it, and no man/woman is an island. I try to avoid being scammed and sold things I don't want, as well as to avoid most people :/ They tend to get in the way...irritate me :[ Bore me. Sadden me. Change me....into them o___o which is a worse position than I started out in.

I haven't felt as alone or unhappy as I am lately in a very long time. Not to mention idle...ha :]

This has to do somewhat with me and in a large part having to do with outside factors that have put me in distress and manipulated and controlled me....

And if there's one thing I can be sure of, it's that finding my 'place' is not a solution. I'm not looking for another alternative/ultimatum to a dead world.

Like Joker, I consider myself a bystander. I get what I need and live on the lowest levels imaginable. I like to watch and learn....but these are not my games to claim fame within....

I'm not looking for anything better. Because this is what life is. And the more we try to get away from it, we just busy ourselves up with worthless distractions from who we are. Spending time with myself is killer.




Really...

I'm dying inside.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:12 pm

Poison IV wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Poison IV wrote:
I have to side with Joker on this one.

For the rest of you I recommend Alan Watts's take on Hindu culture and its comparison to Western society & globalization :]]
Aren't we all hindu's?...I am...

Nope.

They're more honest.

The West is a bunch of liars.
Are you kidding?

I'll have to look up Alan Watts, the name sounds familiar.
But I'm so past all that shit.

Only naive young Westerners buy all that crap. All those sadhus standing around outside Indian tourist attractions are only after one thing, money if you're white and your pussy if you're a white woman. They're all fucking rich, living in houses in the hills, driving Rollers, laughing at our expense. Laughing their heads off, in fact, that we could fall for all that spiritual clap trap. Believe me my dear, I've been there, seen it, done it.

Indians are obsessed with materialism. I'm talking modern Indians here, of course. But all Indians want to be modern and the ones that are still living traditionally are only doing so because economic circumstances prevent them doing otherwise.

India is the most corrupt nation on Earth. Everyone's taking bribes, all the way up to the top. Anyone who wants to make headway in life is royally fucked over by the others.

The strength of family bonds is also suffocating.

To be absolutely honest, I wouldn't trust an Indian as far as I could throw him.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:31 pm

I didn't mean the people themselves :p

Plus, things are always changing on a global scale. What their culture use to promote is probably long and gone.

I'm sure you're completely right, Lilith :]]

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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:09 am

Poison IV wrote:
What does that have to do with finding personal happiness? :]

I mean in a way obviously you can't know what you want unless you see it, and no man/woman is an island. I try to avoid being scammed and sold things I don't want, as well as to avoid most people :/ They tend to get in the way...irritate me :[ Bore me. Sadden me. Change me....into them o___o which is a worse position than I started out in.

I haven't felt as alone or unhappy as I am lately in a very long time. Not to mention idle...ha :]

This has to do somewhat with me and in a large part having to do with outside factors that have put me in distress and manipulated and controlled me....

And if there's one thing I can be sure of, it's that finding my 'place' is not a solution. I'm not looking for another alternative/ultimatum to a dead world.

Like Joker, I consider myself a bystander. I get what I need and live on the lowest levels imaginable. I like to watch and learn....but these are not my games to claim fame within....

I'm not looking for anything better. Because this is what life is. And the more we try to get away from it, we just busy ourselves up with worthless distractions from who we are. Spending time with myself is killer.




Really...

I'm dying inside.
What I mean to say is that while one can be what have you they really don't have to change so much as expand to be able to step beyond the bounds they set for themselves...yet this involves change in a way...expansion of the self is change of the self... that is to say one does not have to become a pawn, that doesn't mean it is bad to look like one when it matters. IDK
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:33 am

Lilith wrote:
Poison IV wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Poison IV wrote:
I have to side with Joker on this one.

For the rest of you I recommend Alan Watts's take on Hindu culture and its comparison to Western society & globalization :]]
Aren't we all hindu's?...I am...

Nope.

They're more honest.

The West is a bunch of liars.
Are you kidding?

I'll have to look up Alan Watts, the name sounds familiar.
But I'm so past all that shit.

Only naive young Westerners buy all that crap. All those sadhus standing around outside Indian tourist attractions are only after one thing, money if you're white and your pussy if you're a white woman. They're all fucking rich, living in houses in the hills, driving Rollers, laughing at our expense. Laughing their heads off, in fact, that we could fall for all that spiritual clap trap. Believe me my dear, I've been there, seen it, done it.

Indians are obsessed with materialism. I'm talking modern Indians here, of course. But all Indians want to be modern and the ones that are still living traditionally are only doing so because economic circumstances prevent them doing otherwise.

India is the most corrupt nation on Earth. Everyone's taking bribes, all the way up to the top. Anyone who wants to make headway in life is royally fucked over by the others.

The strength of family bonds is also suffocating.

To be absolutely honest, I wouldn't trust an Indian as far as I could throw him.
You probably don't know any Indians...
Have probably never visited India...
Haven't studied Hinduism at all...
etc...
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:35 am

Abstract wrote:
Lilith wrote:
Poison IV wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Poison IV wrote:
I have to side with Joker on this one.

For the rest of you I recommend Alan Watts's take on Hindu culture and its comparison to Western society & globalization :]]
Aren't we all hindu's?...I am...

Nope.

They're more honest.

The West is a bunch of liars.
Are you kidding?

I'll have to look up Alan Watts, the name sounds familiar.
But I'm so past all that shit.

Only naive young Westerners buy all that crap. All those sadhus standing around outside Indian tourist attractions are only after one thing, money if you're white and your pussy if you're a white woman. They're all fucking rich, living in houses in the hills, driving Rollers, laughing at our expense. Laughing their heads off, in fact, that we could fall for all that spiritual clap trap. Believe me my dear, I've been there, seen it, done it.

Indians are obsessed with materialism. I'm talking modern Indians here, of course. But all Indians want to be modern and the ones that are still living traditionally are only doing so because economic circumstances prevent them doing otherwise.

India is the most corrupt nation on Earth. Everyone's taking bribes, all the way up to the top. Anyone who wants to make headway in life is royally fucked over by the others.

The strength of family bonds is also suffocating.

To be absolutely honest, I wouldn't trust an Indian as far as I could throw him.
You probably don't know any Indians...
Have probably never visited India...
Haven't studied Hinduism at all...
etc...
That's right dear liberal, because travel broadens the mind doesn't it? At least, that's what you've been told and so you believe it.

But why is it only travel to poorer, non-white countries and why do negative assessments of other cultures upset you so much?





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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:10 pm

Lilith wrote:

That's right dear liberal, because travel broadens the mind doesn't it? At least, that's what you've been told and so you believe it.

But why is it only travel to poorer, non-white countries and why do negative assessments of other cultures upset you so much?





It has nothing to do with travel magically expanding the mind, it has to do with seeing it rather then just being a pawn and believing what you hear or just using little information to make broad generalizations.

what makes you think I am a liberal anyways. just a mere few words you have seen me type, presuming that I accurately represent myself?
And it doesn't upset me at all, I just like to help people open their eyes. Instead of rationalize.

Liberals call me conservative, and right wingers call me liberal... because i don't blindly walk with either mob...it would seem
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:23 am

Abstract wrote:
It has nothing to do with travel magically expanding the mind, it has to do with seeing it rather then just being a pawn and believing what you hear or just using little information to make broad generalizations.
And who did that?

It must've been you, as all my opinions are backed up by personal experience.

You don't like them because they attack the liberal belief that the West is all rotten and evil, whilst the indigenous poor in other countries are innocent and pure. A common case of the noble savage... where nature is represented by what is penniless and pre-industrial and non-white.

You didn't answer my question as to why is it only the people of poor, non-white countries that are worthy of such consideration by middle-class white liberals?
Why not Cajuns or those who live in American trailer parks?

Quote :
what makes you think I am a liberal anyways. just a mere few words you have seen me type, presuming that I accurately represent myself?
After you made numerous judgements about me? What makes you think that you can apply the rod to others, but you should be excepted? You are a garden variety liberal hypocrite, those songs you posted in the theatre speak volumes about your mindset.

Quote :
And it doesn't upset me at all, I just like to help people open their eyes. Instead of rationalize.
And what is opening ones eyes if it doesn't involve reason? You mean you like to cloud their judgment with emotional garbage, especially the eastern variety.

Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance or Capra's Tao of Physics? you should, there right up your street. I'd also recommend Sophie's World as a feminized introduction to Western philosophy. Another classic is The Ending of Time, a series of conversations between Krishnamurti and David Bohm.

Quote :
Krishnamurti: Where there is violence, peace cannot exist. But where there is peace, is there violence? No, of course not. So peace is independent of violence.
Sounds like you, no?

Quote :
Liberals call me conservative, and right wingers call me liberal... because i don't blindly walk with either mob...it would seem
What people call you is important to you, as you have not displayed any capacity for independent thought on this forum.
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PostSubject: Re: Civilization And Society As Live Theater Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:40 am

Lilith wrote:
Abstract wrote:
It has nothing to do with travel magically expanding the mind, it has to do with seeing it rather then just being a pawn and believing what you hear or just using little information to make broad generalizations.
And who did that?

It must've been you, as all my opinions are backed up by personal experience.
I went tothe store yester day and met a hindu...i guess that makes my opinions about them backed up by experience...

What i am saying is sure you have experience, I am implicitly saying that your experience is probably not as relevant as you think.

Heck one could go visit India and if one still held to preconceived notions or walked around without getting to know people and looking into why they think the way they do then one would continue to hold blind-views.

Lilith wrote:

You don't like them because they attack the liberal belief that the West is all rotten and evil, whilst the indigenous poor in other countries are innocent and pure. A common case of the noble savage... where nature is represented by what is penniless and pre-industrial and non-white.
I don't believe in evil, I believe in ignorance though, and Americans are spoiled. And of course they don't want to realize that and you won't agree with that. Because you need your easy life to be justified to be able to enjoy it. But then it is not just America...most 1st world countries are like that, money does that to the majority of the population. Even many the poor want more money so they too can be justified materialists. So heck no, I'm not sure there is anything such as pure, in America or any other country...

Lilith wrote:

You didn't answer my question as to why is it only the people of poor, non-white countries that are worthy of such consideration by middle-class white liberals?
Why not Cajuns or those who live in American trailer parks?
Because most people on both sides flow with the mob and they like to think that it is purely that money is the issue or there is some non human-flawed explanation for those of less standing. That is the case in plenty the place. I didn't say "only". I think everyone that are having the capacity for living held away due to restrictions and unnecessary accumulation of wealth (be they american or not) it would be reasonable to aid. Even for selfish reasons: One lives better when their room is clean, humanity does better when earth is clean: rather then having a nice golden statue win one place surrounded by crap.

Lilith wrote:

Quote :
what makes you think I am a liberal anyways. just a mere few words you have seen me type, presuming that I accurately represent myself?
After you made numerous judgements about me?
observations, I didn't judge you to be anything I hate if that is what you think. i don't know you well enough to understand what all you really think, or what life experience you might have to explain your thinking.

Lilith wrote:
What makes you think that you can apply the rod to others, but you should be excepted? You are a garden variety liberal hypocrite, those songs you posted in the theatre speak volumes about your mindset.
What makes you think that I think I am...again... hit me with your rod, if it breaks that is not my fault.

Lilith wrote:

Quote :
And it doesn't upset me at all, I just like to help people open their eyes. Instead of rationalize.
And what is opening ones eyes if it doesn't involve reason? You mean you like to cloud their judgment with emotional garbage, especially the eastern variety.
I'm giving you reason now, but if one doesn't want to believe it they call it emotional bullshit, wither that or they do not understand the implicit understanding behind it. I can't always explain every detail of why it is reasonable to consider some of these things, but I will try.

Lilith wrote:

Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance or Capra's Tao of Physics? you should, there right up your street. I'd also recommend Sophie's World as a feminized introduction to Western philosophy. Another classic is The Ending of Time, a series of conversations between Krishnamurti and David Bohm.

Quote :
Krishnamurti: Where there is violence, peace cannot exist. But where there is peace, is there violence? No, of course not. So peace is independent of violence.
Sounds like you, no?
just because something else sounds like me is meaningless if I speak with many tongues... Its wrong though... given a coutnry there can be sectors wherein there is a calm; peace... plus violence to some can seem like peace to others...

Lilith wrote:

Quote :
Liberals call me conservative, and right wingers call me liberal... because i don't blindly walk with either mob...it would seem
What people call you is important to you, as you have not displayed any capacity for independent thought on this forum.
How do you define individual thought? Perhaps, you think your thoughts are individual because you do not know enough to see what they correlate to? Probably everything has been done before, new things are created by recombination of experiences... Plenty of the shit I talk about i realized when I was 15 then i read some books and realized that others thought it...and saw that I was not as original as I thought then. but of course if someone agrees with something someone else says they are "unoriginal"... and of course a person can't come to a thought on there own if someone else has said it...they had to get it from that particular source...

though when you think of it it did as does anything come to one from the thinkers of the past, influence through its influence on others that influenced that one...
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