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Know Thyself

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 Self/Other relation.

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PostSubject: Re: Self/Other relation. Self/Other relation. - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 3:39 am

without-music wrote:
Quote :
This definition of freedom is the ability to wish. It amounts to dreaming.
By defining freedom as a ground from which we wish, we do not have to do away with the concept of freedom altogether, or even call it illusory. Suppose freedom is this ground, when we fulfill a wish, we both accomplish a free act, and negate the ground necessitated by that free act in one and the same gesture. But is this a problem? I don't think so. We might define freedom as the criteria for wish-making -- to keep in line with your terms -- and the fulfilling of wishes as both the coming-to-be of free action and the simultaneous passing-away of freedom itself, that is, of the particular ground for which my fulfilled wish was made.

Quote :
By accomplishing a wish, you become a being in-itself.
I think I've addressed this. By consolidating wish-making and wish-accomplishment, by thinking both concepts as existing in one and the same gesture, in one and the same thought -- that is, freedom itself -- I think the being is able to remain for-itself.

Quote :
There is nothing without objectification.
Remember the distinction between nothing and nothingness.

But couldn't you assume that the very act of accomplishing a wish in the physical world limits your freedom?
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PostSubject: Re: Self/Other relation. Self/Other relation. - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 11:27 am

Quote :
But couldn't you assume that the very act of accomplishing a wish in the physical world limits your freedom?
I would resist that. It certainly adds to your facticity, but so long as we define the being for-itself as that which it is not, so long as the being for-itself always projects its own being onto its projects, I think its freedom remains unlimited. By accomplishing a wish, the being for-itself does not reduce itself to its facticity, but rather takes hold of one more possibility, rendering it part of its facticity, nothing more.
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PostSubject: Re: Self/Other relation. Self/Other relation. - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 4:57 pm

without-music wrote:
For Sartre, my relationship with the Other is fundamentally antagonistic. The moment I realize I am the object of the Other's look, I have been objectified, I have been reduced to bare facticity: I am a recluse, I am a writer, I am a musician -- I am no longer that which I am not and not that which I am, in Sartrean terms. This transformation robs me of freedom, and so renders me inauthentic. But at the same time, I no longer need to confront the overwhelming anguish that freedom necessitates: responsibility for who I am. On this picture, however, my relationship with the Other simultaneously robs me of my freedom and reduces me to "that which I am" -- this bare facticity that must be turned away from in order for me to realize my authentic self.

Are our relationships with each other really this dismal? Is it necessary for me to turn away from the Other -- to step away from the human herd, as it were -- to realize my potential freedom? It would explain, on the one hand, the fact that non-reflective "inauthentic" individuals tend to surround themselves with more people. To put it crudely: in high school, the most popular kids were always also the least intelligent. In Sartrean terms: these people didn't have the strength to face the anguish of their own freedom and so sought refuge in the look of the Other.

Thoughts?
There are those who seek friendship because it is what they are "supposed" to do. Others find freedom and then seek the confinements of friendship for the true reason of love, togetherness, peace, progress of life...etc

It is so much better to not walk blind into that nature early in life, and rather walk hard and find the meaning that then drives one to seek it with reason. Given reason, things taste so much better; they mean so much more, they drive the emotions, they are filling too.
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PostSubject: Re: Self/Other relation. Self/Other relation. - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 9:30 pm

without-music wrote:

Are our relationships with each other really this dismal? Is it necessary for me to turn away from the Other -- to step away from the human herd, as it were -- to realize my potential freedom?
I can't imagine someone truly experiencing themselves if they are never alone. I think what Sartre is describing does happen, sometimes you can even feel the other person's conception of you come over you when you first encounter them - again, that is. You can feel the role like a stiff outer garment sliding on or resist it. I mean this fairly literally. I sometimes actually feel the expected personality harden around and then in me - though obviously some part of me is noticing and not 'captured'.

But we do this to ourselves. We have conceptions of ourselves. We enforce roles on ourselves. This is me, this is not me. I don't get mad (at this or that). I never am down for long. I am creative. I am a tough individualist. I understand women.....whatever the little mantras are These objectify us at least as much as the gaze of others. In fact you can learn a lot about how you objectify yourself through how other people objectify you - or seem to, don't forget projections and hallucinations of what we think the object is others make us.

A bouncing back and forth between time alone and time with others seems best to me. The same patterns occur - roles, personalities, objectifications, restrictions, rules, suppressions, denials, punishments - but in the former intra-psychically - which we are so good at and fast at we often miss them - and with the latter interpersonally.

It's easy to be off alone thinking you are free and this and that and then to find that in interactions with other people you just had images in your head based on desire and nothing else.

Sartre may simply have had a hard time being himself - not that this is any simple set of processes - when other people were around so he set up a metaphysics setting this down in stone rather than learning to navigate.


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PostSubject: Re: Self/Other relation. Self/Other relation. - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 22, 2011 5:27 pm

Kovacs wrote:


But we do this to ourselves. We have conceptions of ourselves. We enforce roles on ourselves. This is me, this is not me. I don't get mad (at this or that). I never am down for long. I am creative. I am a tough individualist. I understand women.....whatever the little mantras are These objectify us at least as much as the gaze of others. In fact you can learn a lot about how you objectify yourself through how other people objectify you - or seem to, don't forget projections and hallucinations of what we think the object is others make us.



Perhaps what the person needs to do is simply not define the self. and rather then trying to be the self. or be a defined self. Just be a freeform continuously changing bump in reality.
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PostSubject: Re: Self/Other relation. Self/Other relation. - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 24, 2011 10:31 pm

Abstract wrote:
Kovacs wrote:


But we do this to ourselves. We have conceptions of ourselves. We enforce roles on ourselves. This is me, this is not me. I don't get mad (at this or that). I never am down for long. I am creative. I am a tough individualist. I understand women.....whatever the little mantras are These objectify us at least as much as the gaze of others. In fact you can learn a lot about how you objectify yourself through how other people objectify you - or seem to, don't forget projections and hallucinations of what we think the object is others make us.
Perhaps what the person needs to do is simply not define the self. and rather then trying to be the self. or be a defined self. Just be a freeform continuously changing bump in reality.
I suppose that is a logical conclusion. But I think recognizing patterns, if not done in a fascist manner (using 'facist' in an extremely broad sense), can be useful. It's when notions of yourself and what yourself must be and should not be end up splitting the self into jailer and jailed, bad portions of the self and good ones, etc., then you have a problem. If the 'definitions' serve to help you understand yourself and make smart choices, I don't think this is a problem. I also don't think we are infinitely malleable non-things.
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