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PostSubject: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:03 am

Does everything they type make sense?

Maybe the universe has been around forever, (big bang or not...big crunch or not...) and there have been an infinite number of other races some human like some not. regardless some that used similar if not exactly the same characters some that don't... so every combination has of every symbol has had meaning at some point at some time... so then everything they type is deep as shit?


Not that I necessarily think of God or would even think of God this way but it brings to mind an image of a God looking at a piece of paper with shit typed on it by monkey's and reading each line... laughing his head off, then crying, then shaking his head... and so on... or just doing it all at once tears of sadness and joy at the same time...
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:31 am

Even if monkeys manage to type a coherent sentense in any language, infinite languages if you will, is it of any worth?
Words are worth nothing when they don't comunicate a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:57 am

If I remember correctly I first heard of this as an argument used by Dawkins to demonstrate how order can arise out of chaos or randomness, specifically as a counter argument to creationism.

Don't think it had anything to do with it being deep as shit.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:09 pm

It seemed to me that Abstract was taking the hypothesis in the direction of every string of characters, incoherent as they may seem to us, having a meaning at some time and place.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:52 pm

Lilith wrote:
If I remember correctly I first heard of this as an argument used by Dawkins to demonstrate how order can arise out of chaos or randomness, specifically as a counter argument to creationism.

Don't think it had anything to do with it being deep as shit.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
Different discussion...
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:05 pm

Abstract wrote:
Does everything they type make sense?

Maybe the universe has been around forever, (big bang or not...big crunch or not...) and there have been an infinite number of other races some human like some not. regardless some that used similar if not exactly the same characters some that don't... so every combination has of every symbol has had meaning at some point at some time... so then everything they type is deep as shit?


Not that I necessarily think of God or would even think of God this way but it brings to mind an image of a God looking at a piece of paper with shit typed on it by monkey's and reading each line... laughing his head off, then crying, then shaking his head... and so on... or just doing it all at once tears of sadness and joy at the same time...
If there have been infinite symbol uses - so everything that is has been a symbol infinite ways - then any accumulation of anything will make sense to an omniglot in one of these cultural contexts. I would almost think the universe would then be dangerous for good to pay attention to. Each thing or grouping of things sending out infinite messages and also garbled ones at the same time.

I can see why such a God might leave a Demiurge in charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:46 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Does everything they type make sense?

Maybe the universe has been around forever, (big bang or not...big crunch or not...) and there have been an infinite number of other races some human like some not. regardless some that used similar if not exactly the same characters some that don't... so every combination has of every symbol has had meaning at some point at some time... so then everything they type is deep as shit?


Not that I necessarily think of God or would even think of God this way but it brings to mind an image of a God looking at a piece of paper with shit typed on it by monkey's and reading each line... laughing his head off, then crying, then shaking his head... and so on... or just doing it all at once tears of sadness and joy at the same time...
If there have been infinite symbol uses - so everything that is has been a symbol infinite ways - then any accumulation of anything will make sense to an omniglot in one of these cultural contexts. I would almost think the universe would then be dangerous for good to pay attention to. Each thing or grouping of things sending out infinite messages and also garbled ones at the same time.

I can see why such a God might leave a Demiurge in charge.


It would seem that such a God would require a sort of mind to deal with such things or might have a capacity to ignore things...
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:17 pm

Abstract wrote:

It would seem that such a God would require a sort of mind to deal with such things or might have a capacity to ignore things...
Yes, since we are dealing with God omnireading would not be a problem, that is if it was one of the gods of the theologians, omni-this and omni-that,infallible, infinite, perfect always and so on. I've always thought that was a poor turning in religion, one generally coupled with a transcendent god.

Kids can laugh laugh at almost any pattern.

I assume this is coming out of the 'with enough monkeys typing over enough time, eventually Hamlet will be produced.' An extension of that concept. Or?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

I have always found this idea depressing. Brute repetition and randomness and a great deal of time can achieve everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:30 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:

It would seem that such a God would require a sort of mind to deal with such things or might have a capacity to ignore things...
Yes, since we are dealing with God omnireading would not be a problem, that is if it was one of the gods of the theologians, omni-this and omni-that,infallible, infinite, perfect always and so on. I've always thought that was a poor turning in religion, one generally coupled with a transcendent god.

Kids can laugh laugh at almost any pattern.

I assume this is coming out of the 'with enough monkeys typing over enough time, eventually Hamlet will be produced.' An extension of that concept. Or?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

I have always found this idea depressing. Brute repetition and randomness and a great deal of time can achieve everything.
everything like human life..again? or perhaps me...again?... and Again? in a different setting?(yes this thought comes of the monkey theorem stuff...)
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:35 pm

Abstract wrote:
everything like human life..again? or perhaps me...again?... and Again? in a different setting?(yes this thought comes of the monkey theorem stuff...)
Yes, you could be made this way, anything you have every created could be made this way - there's nothing you can do that can't be done....comes to mind, though that sounds merely tautological, this is even more disturbing. It it is true, that is.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:42 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
everything like human life..again? or perhaps me...again?... and Again? in a different setting?(yes this thought comes of the monkey theorem stuff...)
Yes, you could be made this way, anything you have every created could be made this way - there's nothing you can do that can't be done....comes to mind, though that sounds merely tautological, this is even more disturbing. It it is true, that is.
If one were to come back the exact same that would mean no memory of the past and thus would not be bad... but i would not think exact repetition is an aspect of the pattern considering there are obviously moments of non-exact repetition at least within one life time.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:16 pm

What if, what if...
What if your mum was a man, you'd have two dads.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:12 am

phoneutria wrote:
What if, what if...
What if your mum was a man, you'd have two dads.
If my mum was a man then my dad is a girl?

Whats wrong with what if's?

Are you saying don't ask questions?
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:13 am

Abstract wrote:
Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
everything like human life..again? or perhaps me...again?... and Again? in a different setting?(yes this thought comes of the monkey theorem stuff...)
Yes, you could be made this way, anything you have every created could be made this way - there's nothing you can do that can't be done....comes to mind, though that sounds merely tautological, this is even more disturbing. It it is true, that is.
If one were to come back the exact same that would mean no memory of the past and thus would not be bad... but i would not think exact repetition is an aspect of the pattern considering there are obviously moments of non-exact repetition at least within one life time.
Wasn't thinking so much of the horror of eternal return, which is a unpleasant thought also, even if one does not remember, just thinking it is the way things are is unpleasant. I was thinking of the horrifically humbling causation posited by the monkey theorum. The most creative personal thing you do in this life would be produced by those monkeys eventually.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:51 am

You may find humbling that ibm's watson will be deployed for medical diagnostics next year.
An inanimate object, to which words mean nothing, but to which human doctors will listen to.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/ibm_watson_hired_by_wellpoint_healthcare/
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:52 am

Abstract wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
What if, what if...
What if your mum was a man, you'd have two dads.
If my mum was a man then my dad is a girl?

Whats wrong with what if's?

Are you saying don't ask questions?

I am saying is there a point to this exercise?
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:04 am

Abstract wrote:
Lilith wrote:
If I remember correctly I first heard of this as an argument used by Dawkins to demonstrate how order can arise out of chaos or randomness, specifically as a counter argument to creationism.

Don't think it had anything to do with it being deep as shit.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
Different discussion...
I think you missed the point.

The monkey's just a metaphor for a natural process or device that produces a randomized output.

(I think you're confusing your argument bringing the monkey into it at all)
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:52 pm

Abstract wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
What if, what if...
What if your mum was a man, you'd have two dads.
If my mum was a man then my dad is a girl?

Whats wrong with what if's?

Are you saying don't ask questions?
What if I stop asking questions and I actually start positing conclusions?
What if a question was an answer and an answer was a question?

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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:07 pm

Yes, the universe is a absurd place where its very being revolves around various absurdities.

The insistence that humanity thinks that it can elevate itself over all of existence is just one very instance of absurdity.

The absurdities of all that is civilization I think is also very compelling.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:27 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
everything like human life..again? or perhaps me...again?... and Again? in a different setting?(yes this thought comes of the monkey theorem stuff...)
Yes, you could be made this way, anything you have every created could be made this way - there's nothing you can do that can't be done....comes to mind, though that sounds merely tautological, this is even more disturbing. It it is true, that is.
If one were to come back the exact same that would mean no memory of the past and thus would not be bad... but i would not think exact repetition is an aspect of the pattern considering there are obviously moments of non-exact repetition at least within one life time.
Wasn't thinking so much of the horror of eternal return, which is a unpleasant thought also, even if one does not remember, just thinking it is the way things are is unpleasant. I was thinking of the horrifically humbling causation posited by the monkey theorum. The most creative personal thing you do in this life would be produced by those monkeys eventually.

What wrong with that. THat just indicates that we do not need to put so much importance on our selves... a thing that if more did perhaps there would be less fighting and shit in this world.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:30 pm

phoneutria wrote:
Abstract wrote:
phoneutria wrote:
What if, what if...
What if your mum was a man, you'd have two dads.
If my mum was a man then my dad is a girl?

Whats wrong with what if's?

Are you saying don't ask questions?

I am saying is there a point to this exercise?
One exercises to strengthen muscles.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:35 pm

Perhaps you like to work out with others as well?

Satyr wrote:
What if I stop asking questions and I actually start positing conclusions?
Then you would make a good dictator?

Satyr wrote:

What if a question was an answer and an answer was a question?
An answer almost already is a question in the sense that one only leads one to further questions. Perhaps a question is just an answer stated in a form that request further information in regards to the answer.

Perhaps if that was the case it would be no different we would just have different words for what an answer and question is.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:45 pm

In this case your ignorance is a form of gnosis and your weakness is strength.
Congratulations you twisted a negative into a positive with as little effort as would be required in repainting a kitchen table.

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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:02 pm

Abstract wrote:

What wrong with that. THat just indicates that we do not need to put so much importance on our selves... a thing that if more did perhaps there would be less fighting and shit in this world.
1) I don't see the importance idea as necessarily hinged to what I was reacting to. I do not have to think I am important or unimportant to feel attachment to creations. 2) individuals feeling they are not important contributes incredibly to violence. They accept being cogs in military machines, fascist states, etc. And they expect others to not feel their lives are that important either and whisper their names to secret police or regular police or spread lies or gossip about them. Some see themselves as unimportant in relation to the state, others in relation to God, still others to other ideals or simply to people they consider more important. I think this is one of the key lies used by various powers out there, that things are better if we think we are unimportant.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:00 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:

What wrong with that. THat just indicates that we do not need to put so much importance on our selves... a thing that if more did perhaps there would be less fighting and shit in this world.
1) I don't see the importance idea as necessarily hinged to what I was reacting to. I do not have to think I am important or unimportant to feel attachment to creations. 2) individuals feeling they are not important contributes incredibly to violence. They accept being cogs in military machines, fascist states, etc. And they expect others to not feel their lives are that important either and whisper their names to secret police or regular police or spread lies or gossip about them. Some see themselves as unimportant in relation to the state, others in relation to God, still others to other ideals or simply to people they consider more important. I think this is one of the key lies used by various powers out there, that things are better if we think we are unimportant.
What I meant by important was "better than" everyone and thing is relevant.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:12 pm

Abstract wrote:
What I meant by important was "better than" everyone and thing is relevant.
I guess I don't see pride in one's creativity as needing to be about being better than other people. There is so much apple and oranges type issues in creativity - using the term very broadly to include anything from engineering to cooking to painting to whatever. That these creations come from ourselves and are connected to us and are ours.

I can't see that the part of me that is humbled or would be by the idea of monkeys randomly creating everything I have or will has much to do with violence in the world. I feel absolutely no urges of violence connected to it or in any disappointment I might have. Violence related to other issues, sure, I can feel that in there, but this one no.

And, as I said, humble and humbled people have been responsible (tools) for incredible amounts of violence.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:02 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
What I meant by important was "better than" everyone and thing is relevant.
I guess I don't see pride in one's creativity as needing to be about being better than other people. There is so much apple and oranges type issues in creativity - using the term very broadly to include anything from engineering to cooking to painting to whatever. That these creations come from ourselves and are connected to us and are ours.

I can't see that the part of me that is humbled or would be by the idea of monkeys randomly creating everything I have or will has much to do with violence in the world. I feel absolutely no urges of violence connected to it or in any disappointment I might have. Violence related to other issues, sure, I can feel that in there, but this one no.

And, as I said, humble and humbled people have been responsible (tools) for incredible amounts of violence.
Inddeed humble people have been. some times the most humble people are the worst in that the sit around and do nothing when they could aid the survival of others, simply being as such out of ignorance. It is a good sign that you instinctively think of such humbly...

But I am still not sure I understand what aspect of the "monkeies on the type writer" argument being the case would and why it would disappoint you?
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:28 pm

Abstract wrote:
Inddeed humble people have been. some times the most humble people are the worst in that the sit around and do nothing when they could aid the survival of others, simply being as such out of ignorance. It is a good sign that you instinctively think of such humbly...

But I am still not sure I understand what aspect of the "monkeies on the type writer" argument being the case would and why it would disappoint you?
Do you do anything artistic or creative - be loose with those term if needed? Perhaps a love letter your wrote someone? something you said to someone in pain who you loved?
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:35 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Inddeed humble people have been. some times the most humble people are the worst in that the sit around and do nothing when they could aid the survival of others, simply being as such out of ignorance. It is a good sign that you instinctively think of such humbly...

But I am still not sure I understand what aspect of the "monkeies on the type writer" argument being the case would and why it would disappoint you?
Do you do anything artistic or creative - be loose with those term if needed? Perhaps a love letter your wrote someone? something you said to someone in pain who you loved?
Yes... your point?
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:42 pm

Abstract wrote:
Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Inddeed humble people have been. some times the most humble people are the worst in that the sit around and do nothing when they could aid the survival of others, simply being as such out of ignorance. It is a good sign that you instinctively think of such humbly...

But I am still not sure I understand what aspect of the "monkeies on the type writer" argument being the case would and why it would disappoint you?
Do you do anything artistic or creative - be loose with those term if needed? Perhaps a love letter your wrote someone? something you said to someone in pain who you loved?
Yes... your point?
I should have been clearer - could you give me some examples?

Obviously I am going to ask you how you would feel if whatever your examples are were generated, in context, by a machine producing randomly in the same context you produced it.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:00 am

Printers recreate the most amazing works of art with great precision. Then we frame them and hang them on our walls.
There isn't a single thought or feeling put into placing those dots of ink on those precise positions.

Here's another bit of humbling: do androids dream of electric sheep?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O2R_TYI7mw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:22 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Inddeed humble people have been. some times the most humble people are the worst in that the sit around and do nothing when they could aid the survival of others, simply being as such out of ignorance. It is a good sign that you instinctively think of such humbly...

But I am still not sure I understand what aspect of the "monkeies on the type writer" argument being the case would and why it would disappoint you?
Do you do anything artistic or creative - be loose with those term if needed? Perhaps a love letter your wrote someone? something you said to someone in pain who you loved?
Yes... your point?
I should have been clearer - could you give me some examples?

Obviously I am going to ask you how you would feel if whatever your examples are were generated, in context, by a machine producing randomly in the same context you produced it.
I have written love poems/letters...

If a machine produced it randomly i would not feel anything... one might say "because I produced it non-randomly.." but then I would think it may be fair to consider my creation just as much a random result of the compounding of an infinite number of events... I find no need to feel comfort in the idea that my ideas are original... if anything I find comfort in being able to reiterate things when they are pertinent, for say solving a problem and thus balancing the situation...
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:57 pm

Abstract wrote:

I have written love poems/letters...

If a machine produced it randomly i would not feel anything... one might say "because I produced it non-randomly.." but then I would think it may be fair to consider my creation just as much a random result of the compounding of an infinite number of events... I find no need to feel comfort in the idea that my ideas are original... if anything I find comfort in being able to reiterate things when they are pertinent, for say solving a problem and thus balancing the situation...
To respond to the latter point:
satisfaction with repeating something that serves a good function is not dependent on being attached or not attached to certain creations.

Since you do not mind thinking of your own actions and creations as random, I can see where you would not be bothered by the hypothetical monkeys.

I don't see your lack of concern here as something that will lead to bad behavior in you or others.

Nor do I see my reaction - which obviously differs and now we are almost at a taste level - leading to bad behavior or that I am in need of being humbled because of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Monkey's at type writers. Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:43 am

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:

I have written love poems/letters...

If a machine produced it randomly i would not feel anything... one might say "because I produced it non-randomly.." but then I would think it may be fair to consider my creation just as much a random result of the compounding of an infinite number of events... I find no need to feel comfort in the idea that my ideas are original... if anything I find comfort in being able to reiterate things when they are pertinent, for say solving a problem and thus balancing the situation...
To respond to the latter point:
satisfaction with repeating something that serves a good function is not dependent on being attached or not attached to certain creations.

Since you do not mind thinking of your own actions and creations as random, I can see where you would not be bothered by the hypothetical monkeys.

I don't see your lack of concern here as something that will lead to bad behavior in you or others.

Nor do I see my reaction - which obviously differs and now we are almost at a taste level - leading to bad behavior or that I am in need of being humbled because of it.
I understand your position...I held to such a feeling once as well...

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