Know Thyself

Nothing in Excess
 
HomePortalFAQMemberlistSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 If a cow why not a baby

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: If a cow why not a baby Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:37 pm

They have about the same intelligence so why is it ok to eat one and not the other?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:34 pm

'cause people are a bunch of faggot pussies

and that appetizing meals are not solely dependant upon the intelligence of what's being eaten.

salad has no iq, but i kinda like it (even though i'm not gay).
Back to top Go down
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 14429
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:55 pm

I remember the first time I had to kill a living creature, other than a plant or those bugs i used to play with.
We had chickens and rabbits and a goat, at the time.

My father sent me to kill a rabbit for our dinner than evening.
i was scared and a bit apprehensive, but my pride would not let me crumble.

I went out with a big ax, dragged a rabbit out of the cage and holding it from the ears I tapped it behind them.
I didn't know if it was dead. It just hanged there like a criminal on the gallows, and I had closed my eyes when I tapped it, so I could not tell if the deed was done.

I decided to rest its feet on the ground and take some pressure off its ears. When I did it scrambled one of its "unlucky" legs scratching my hand.
My pride was reinforced with anger...I raised it again and swung my weapon of slaughter.

It was dead.

Later I enjoyed its flesh.
I realized that it is good to respect nature, to give thanks to the animal that gave its life to sustain us, but it is also good to remain true to nature and her ways.

One must die for another to live and if my life means more to me than a bug's or a horse's or a goat's then I shall take a life, knowing that one day my own will be given for the sustenance of another.

This vegetarian shit hides a deep resentment and cowardice.
It is anti-nature though it professes to love nature.
It does not love life nor nature, it abhors it because it seeks to cleanse it and change it so that it becomes artificial and loyal to a human conception of what is "right".

Imagine a world that awaited the morality of men to tell it that all that it was doing, including all that birthed such a man, was all wrong.

Imagine being that ungrateful and delusional and self-hating.
Imagine being that stupid.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:04 am

Because cows chew on cud, and babies chew on their toes.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:10 am

Satyr wrote:
I remember the first time I had to kill a living creature, other than a plant or those bugs i used to play with.
We had chickens and rabbits and a goat, at the time.

My father sent me to kill a rabbit for our dinner than evening.
i was scared and a bit apprehensive, but my pride would not let me crumble.

I went out with a big ax, dragged a rabbit out of the cage and holding it from the ears I tapped it behind them.
I didn't know if it was dead. It just hanged there like a criminal on the gallows, and I had closed my eyes when I tapped it, so I could not tell if the deed was done.

I decided to rest its feet on the ground and take some pressure off its ears. When I did it scrambled one of its "unlucky" legs scratching my hand.
My pride was reinforced with anger...I raised it again and swung my weapon of slaughter.

It was dead.

Later I enjoyed its flesh.
I realized that it is good to respect nature, to give thanks to the animal that gave its life to sustain us, but it is also good to remain true to nature and her ways.

One must die for another to live and if my life means more to me than a bug's or a horse's or a goat's then I shall take a life, knowing that one day my own will be given for the sustenance of another.

This vegetarian shit hides a deep resentment and cowardice.
It is anti-nature though it professes to love nature.
It does not love life nor nature, it abhors it because it seeks to cleanse it and change it so that it becomes artificial and loyal to a human conception of what is "right".

Imagine a world that awaited the morality of men to tell it that all that it was doing, including all that birthed such a man, was all wrong.

Imagine being that ungrateful and delusional and self-hating.
Imagine being that stupid.
What made you think this was about vegetarianism?
Though i should say that meat requires more resources per unit of healthy substance then growing it...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:12 am

Rather satyr i am literally interested in how we justify the eating of one and not also the other...
is it purely that it is a matter of survival... a natural disgust perhaps at self culling?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:18 am

Satyr wrote:


This vegetarian shit hides a deep resentment and cowardice.
It is anti-nature though it professes to love nature.
It does not love life nor nature, it abhors it because it seeks to cleanse it and change it so that it becomes artificial and loyal to a human conception of what is "right".

Sort of....it's a strange thing and all about what we're prone to and capable of...

If becoming a vegetarian is a human possibility, humans will exercise it. It becomes a way to show we are not so 'bad' towards other life and that getting along on a higher level is better than stepping up the food chain physically.

It's looked at as spiritually extensive, and a denouncement of the flesh (on flesh). Vegetarians share a mentality that external pain exerted onto other life is not worth pleasure internally or in this case, that an animal's life is just as worthy a human's.

In other words, to them, there is no tradeoff...all is equal...

However, this does get very contradictory...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:26 am

Abstract wrote:
Rather satyr i am literally interested in how we justify the eating of one and not also the other...
is it purely that it is a matter of survival... a natural disgust perhaps at self culling?

Because we eat meat to survive, and it's simply not proper to take a human life just for food. Yes, a human life is considered more valuable than an animal's, and most humans deserve this title (although admittedly there are many who don't)....

That's the way things go, and to ask the question honestly and not out of pure facetiousness does bring up some concern...

Not of your values, but of your general ability to study and really understand human/pack behavior, and why living in a large industrialized society where meat comes easy means being given more rights of protection for being human.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:33 am

"Spiritually extensive"?

It sounds spiritually retarded to me. I agree with Satyr.

If an organism can't handle causing pain in another, and especially if it sets up this anti-pain stance as some kind of ideal, that organism has become neurotic, turned away from nature and suckered into human ideas of "good behavior".
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:36 am

Advocatus Diaboli wrote:
"Spiritually extensive"?

It sounds spiritually retarded to me. I agree with Satyr.

Now, now don't be so hasty---whether you disagree or not.

Quote :
If an organism can't handle causing pain in another, and especially if it sets up this anti-pain stance as some kind of ideal, that organism has become neurotic, turned away from nature and suckered into human ideas of "good behavior".

A human falling for human ideas, the nerve!

It's just unnatural.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:42 am

Abstract wrote:
They have about the same intelligence so why is it ok to eat one and not the other?
Are we heading towards the conclusion that it's OK to eat retarded people?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:44 am

Poison IV wrote:
Now, now don't be so hasty---whether you disagree or not.

Don't worry; I'm very slow.

Poison IV wrote:
A human falling for human ideas, the nerve!

It's just unnatural.


My statement really shouldn't be that obscure, given that Satyr has gone over Baudrillard stuff on this forum as well as their similarity with his own general ideas. (Of course, I haven't actually read Baudrillard; but it's been on this forum enough, and Satyr has expanded upon it in his own posts enough, that I think it's fair to assume that I can use it as a kind of implicit background.)
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:51 am

Advocatus Diaboli wrote:


Don't worry; I'm very slow.

No worries here.

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:54 am

Abstract wrote:
They have about the same intelligence so why is it ok to eat one and not the other?
Is it worse to eat a very smart shithead than an average intelligence level nice person?

Do people base abortion rights on intelligence evaluations?

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:01 am

I would say yes, most definitely; higher intelligence is more valuable to society than not.

Even if you couldn't get people to admit that, no one could practically disagree.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:04 am

A person who will not admit the possibility of eating a baby has propably never come any close of knowing what starvation feels like.

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm

''I was raised very strictly,'' Krishna Rajanna told the Kansas City Pitch Weekly. ''My mother would commit suicide before she'd even think of touching a meat product.''

Read more: Accused fetus-eater
says he's vegetarian http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=31102#ixzz1agJgD6db
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:55 pm

I would not be surprised if it might be a common ritual practice that's more 'underground' ;p
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:04 pm

Poison IV wrote:
Satyr wrote:


This vegetarian shit hides a deep resentment and cowardice.
It is anti-nature though it professes to love nature.
It does not love life nor nature, it abhors it because it seeks to cleanse it and change it so that it becomes artificial and loyal to a human conception of what is "right".

Sort of....it's a strange thing and all about what we're prone to and capable of...

If becoming a vegetarian is a human possibility, humans will exercise it. It becomes a way to show we are not so 'bad' towards other life and that getting along on a higher level is better than stepping up the food chain physically.

It's looked at as spiritually extensive, and a denouncement of the flesh (on flesh). Vegetarians share a mentality that external pain exerted onto other life is not worth pleasure internally or in this case, that an animal's life is just as worthy a human's.

In other words, to them, there is no tradeoff...all is equal...

However, this does get very contradictory...
That is a bit of an over generalization... many people are vegetarians for health reasons...

Back to top Go down
apaosha
Daeva
avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 1548
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 30
Location : Ireland

PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:27 pm

In-group, out-group.

One sees oneself in an infant child, there is empathy. An animal is a thing, an object, a lesser being.

A vegetarian empathizes with the animal, imagines it's suffering when it is slaughtered. This is why it ties in with the ideology of all-inclusiveness, pity for all that suffers.

A non-vegetarian is more discriminating and does not consider the energies of the being he is appropriating and incorporating into himself as sympathetic.

At the heart of this, once again, is pity for a lesser being and the magnanimous urge to "correct" reality.... to prevent exploitation as it occurs in a relationship between organisms of differing potential.

_________________
"I do not exhort you to work but to battle; I do not exhort you to peace but to victory. May your work be a battle; may your peace be a victory." -TSZ
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://knowthyself.forumotion.net
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:47 pm

Well, in their minds animals are not 'lesser' :p
Hence, why it becomes that much more important to protect their rights.
Back to top Go down
apaosha
Daeva
avatar

Gender : Male Virgo Posts : 1548
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 30
Location : Ireland

PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:00 pm

Everyone's equal.... remember? There is no high or low. We're all knee-deep in the swamp, about to be drowned by shallow waters.

You should go marry a horse. I hear they have big dicks.... If you don't you're close-minded and anachronistic.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://knowthyself.forumotion.net
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:10 pm

Poison IV wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Rather satyr i am literally interested in how we justify the eating of one and not also the other...
is it purely that it is a matter of survival... a natural disgust perhaps at self culling?

Because we eat meat to survive, and it's simply not proper to take a human life just for food. Yes, a human life is considered more valuable than an animal's, and most humans deserve this title (although admittedly there are many who don't)....

That's the way things go, and to ask the question honestly and not out of pure facetiousness does bring up some concern...

Not of your values, but of your general ability to study and really understand human/pack behavior, and why living in a large industrialized society where meat comes easy means being given more rights of protection for being human.
Honestly I understand well enough many reasons for it... I am interested particularly if their are legitimate moral reasons, beyond one's that are purely survivalistic...

Meat is not necessary to survive...in some situations yes, but now it is not...
so then how is it justified, your say it is not proper to take a human life but why?
What is it that makes humans "more" than other life... is it simply that we can, that we have power... is it that we have intelligence, or what.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:13 pm

Advocatus Diaboli wrote:
"Spiritually extensive"?

It sounds spiritually retarded to me. I agree with Satyr.

If an organism can't handle causing pain in another, and especially if it sets up this anti-pain stance as some kind of ideal, that organism has become neurotic, turned away from nature and suckered into human ideas of "good behavior".
You cannot turn away from nature as all things that exist are nature, including any human ideals that arise.

I would think that in nature often when you oppose another being it leads that being to have interest in opposing you, so why oppose something when such is not needed...rather that seems like a survival mechanism...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:15 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
They have about the same intelligence so why is it ok to eat one and not the other?
Are we heading towards the conclusion that it's OK to eat retarded people?
I think most retarded people have the same intelligence as most animals we eat... again I am more interested in understanding the moral justifications for it that people think there are, and in what ways it does not for example contradict at least some of the ideals held by say the christian orientation.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:18 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
They have about the same intelligence so why is it ok to eat one and not the other?
Is it worse to eat a very smart shithead than an average intelligence level nice person?

Do people base abortion rights on intelligence evaluations?

Actually I think they do base abortion rights with regards to intelligence... that is they have tried to identify when a thing become intelligent so as to identify when it is ok to abort a impregnated egg... some argue that it is a matter of potential of intelligence though... but then that still involves intelligence...

Perhaps the question is: Is it pure self interest; insurance that oneself does not have to deal with being eaten, that is why people don't do that?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:20 pm

Poison IV wrote:
I would say yes, most definitely; higher intelligence is more valuable to society than not.

Even if you couldn't get people to admit that, no one could practically disagree.
Exactly... so my thinking is that we do not eat each other primarily because it does not serve the survival of the whole... either that or individually it is recognized that it would increase the likely hood of individual death and thus not be individually beneficial.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:28 pm

We don't eat each other because we can't find pieces of each other sanitarily packed onto little styrofoam trays at the grocery shop.

Ah, that would be quite a treat.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:06 pm

Abstract wrote:

Actually I think they do base abortion rights with regards to intelligence... that is they have tried to identify when a thing become intelligent so as to identify when it is ok to abort a impregnated egg... some argue that it is a matter of potential of intelligence though... but then that still involves intelligence...
This is not an argument I have encountered. I am sure some people may think like this, but the arguments I have seen generally have to do with it being a part of the woman's body, not a separate entity. Likewise I do not see abortion rights people arguing that we should be allowed to eat severely retarded or brain damaged people, some of whom are at fetus IQ levels.

And arguments against eating humans or killing them, tend to have to do with the species, not the intelligence - and this is true for both anti and pro abortion people. We are speciesist, most of us.

Quote :
Perhaps the question is: Is it pure self interest; insurance that oneself does not have to deal with being eaten, that is why people don't do that?
There are specific diseases one can only get through eating other humans. And since civilization got going we are much more toxic meat sources than other species. We are high up predators who are exposed to all sorts of toxins - and for the last 100 years eat them regularly. Though of course the taboo arose much earlier.

I think we simply do not want to think of ourselves as meat. This undercuts - ha, ha - much of our hubris.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:15 pm

We should definitely eat retarded babies. It would fix overpopulation, famine AND promote a more intelligent population.
Vote for me.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:17 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:

Actually I think they do base abortion rights with regards to intelligence... that is they have tried to identify when a thing become intelligent so as to identify when it is ok to abort a impregnated egg... some argue that it is a matter of potential of intelligence though... but then that still involves intelligence...
This is not an argument I have encountered. I am sure some people may think like this, but the arguments I have seen generally have to do with it being a part of the woman's body, not a separate entity. Likewise I do not see abortion rights people arguing that we should be allowed to eat severely retarded or brain damaged people, some of whom are at fetus IQ levels.
I would think that typically it being a part of a woman's body is an argument against abortion legalization it is not something against abortion. Depends on who you are talking to...

Kovacs wrote:

And arguments against eating humans or killing them, tend to have to do with the species, not the intelligence - and this is true for both anti and pro abortion people. We are speciesist, most of us.
So why not be racist too?

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:30 pm

Abstract wrote:

Honestly I understand well enough many reasons for it... I am interested particularly if their are legitimate moral reasons, beyond one's that are purely survivalistic...

Meat is not necessary to survive...in some situations yes, but now it is not...
so then how is it justified, your say it is not proper to take a human life but why?
What is it that makes humans "more" than other life... is it simply that we can, that we have power... is it that we have intelligence, or what.

Meat is actually a necessary food group to survive for some blood types. Many people have felt strongly about vegetarianism/veganism and several years later ended up with terrible health problems (even with b12 vitamins).

I'm one of those blood types.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:54 pm

Poison IV wrote:
Abstract wrote:

Honestly I understand well enough many reasons for it... I am interested particularly if their are legitimate moral reasons, beyond one's that are purely survivalistic...

Meat is not necessary to survive...in some situations yes, but now it is not...
so then how is it justified, your say it is not proper to take a human life but why?
What is it that makes humans "more" than other life... is it simply that we can, that we have power... is it that we have intelligence, or what.

Meat is actually a necessary food group to survive for some blood types. Many people have felt strongly about vegetarianism/veganism and several years later ended up with terrible health problems (even with b12 vitamins).

I'm one of those blood types.
What is it that is in the meat that is necessary?
I have heard that though.. that would be a case where it is necessary
B12 can be gotten by things other then meat, specifically by supplementation as produced by bacterias...

But again this is not about vegetarianism...
I am interested as to whether you think there is any reason other then survival that can justify eating meat?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:17 pm

and other than tradition and taste?
I expect baby meat is quite tasty actually...

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:17 pm

Abstract wrote:

So why not be racist too?
My point is not that we should be speciesist, but rather that I don't think you are formulating the reasons why most people allow or think we should allow for abortions.

And as far as I can tell pretty much everyone is speciesist. I am sure there are a few people living alone with cats or dogs or out in the woods, who prefer animals over humans and actually would rescue the drowing duck and let the human child drown if they only had time to save one, but there are not many of these people. Wanting to treat all races as human however is much more common, if not common enough.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:19 pm

phoneutria wrote:
We should definitely eat retarded babies. It would fix overpopulation, famine AND promote a more intelligent population.
Vote for me.
Eating the babies of the orthodox religious would do much more for overpopulation.

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:20 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:

So why not be racist too?
My point is not that we should be speciesist, but rather that I don't think you are formulating the reasons why most people allow or think we should allow for abortions.

And as far as I can tell pretty much everyone is speciesist. I am sure there are a few people living alone with cats or dogs or out in the woods, who prefer animals over humans and actually would rescue the drowing duck and let the human child drown if they only had time to save one, but there are not many of these people. Wanting to treat all races as human however is much more common, if not common enough.
I think it is reasonable for one to do what is more close to the self first.
I am more interested specifically as to why people think abortions are wrong on moral level, as to see given that moral thinking if it fairly should apply to other animals... so as to identify a hypocrisy if there is one.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:21 pm

Abstract wrote:
I would think that typically it being a part of a woman's body is an argument against abortion legalization it is not something against abortion. Depends on who you are talking to...
it's an argument for a woman's right to abort if she wants. That it is her decision and a part of her that is in question.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:22 pm

Kovacs wrote:
Abstract wrote:
I would think that typically it being a part of a woman's body is an argument against abortion legalization it is not something against abortion. Depends on who you are talking to...
it's an argument for a woman's right to abort if she wants. That it is her decision and a part of her that is in question.
So I should have at least the right to eat my self. I guess...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:27 pm

Abstract wrote:

I think it is reasonable for one to do what is more close to the self first.
I am more interested specifically as to why people think abortions are wrong on moral level, as to see given that moral thinking if it fairly should apply to other animals... so as to identify a hypocrisy if there is one.
OK. So you are, in a sense, trying to get the antiabortionists to be consistent about right to life. (I am sure this is an oversimplification, but just to make sure I follow).

Most people are speciesist and certaintly the bulk of the most vocal antiabortionists have the Abrahamic prejudice against animals, that they are for us, that they do not have souls. The Muslims have the kindest rules, where the halal death of the animal is attempting to be as considerate as possible - their solutions are not great but that is the stated intent. But we are not animals, are special in creation in these views and so we do not have to be consistent. It is not intelligence that is at issue, it is being human. The fetus is human, therefore it cannot be killed.

Though oddly in some Christianity it must be baptized since it is filled with sin. How it can be wrong to send an entity filled with sin to hell is beyond me - given their beliefs. And if it is wrong - and permanently wrong since hell is forever - why would God places fetus in front of beings with free will who might send them to hell for all time?

I can see letting us be accountable for the errors of our free will, but fetuses?

Very strange religion. There must be gaps in the film of their consciousness to keep them from noticing the ludicrousness.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: If a cow why not a baby

Back to top Go down
 
If a cow why not a baby
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» BABY FELL OUT WINDOW AND WAS NOT HURT... help!
» Dream about giving birth to a baby and naming him Jacob
» symbol for baby birds
» Gave birth to a baby boy and I'm not pregnant (Starting to worry) Need Help interpreting this dream
» Recurrent dream of dropping a baby

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Know Thyself :: AGORA-
Jump to: