That old sorcerer has vanished And for once has gone away! Spirits called by him, now banished, My commands shall soon obey. Every step and saying That he used, I know, And with sprites obeying My arts I will show.
Flow, flow onward Stretches many Spare not any Water rushing, Ever streaming fully downward Toward the pool in current gushing. Come, old broomstick, you are needed, Take these rags and wrap them round you! Long my orders you have heeded, By my wishes now I've bound you. Have two legs and stand, And a head for you. Run, and in your hand Hold a bucket too.
Flow, flow onward Stretches many, Spare not any Water rushing, Ever streaming fully downward Toward the pool in current gushing. See him, toward the shore he's racing There, he's at the stream already, Back like lightning he is chasing, Pouring water fast and steady. Once again he hastens! How the water spills, How the water basins Brimming full he fills!
Stop now, hear me! Ample measure Of your treasure We have gotten! Ah, I see it, dear me, dear me. Master's word I have forgotten! Ah, the word with which the master Makes the broom a broom once more! Ah, he runs and fetches faster! Be a broomstick as before! Ever new the torrents That by him are fed, Ah, a hundred currents Pour upon my head!
No, no longer Can I please him, I will seize him! That is spiteful! My misgivings grow the stronger. What a mien, his eyes how frightful! Brood of hell, you're not a mortal! Shall the entire house go under? Over threshold over portal Streams of water rush and thunder. Broom accurst and mean, Who will have his will, Stick that you have been, Once again stand still!
Can I never, Broom, appease you? I will seize you, Hold and whack you, And your ancient wood I'll sever, With a whetted axe I'll crack you. He returns, more water dragging! Now I'll throw myself upon you! Soon, 0 goblin, you'll be sagging. Crash! The sharp axe has undone you. What a good blow, truly! There, he's split, I see. Hope now rises newly, And my breathing's free.
Woe betide me! Both halves scurry In a hurry, Rise like towers There beside me. Help me, help, eternal powers! Off they run, till wet and wetter Hall and steps immersed are Iying. What a flood that naught can fetter! Lord and master, hear me crying! - Ah, he comes excited. Sir, my need is sore. Spirits that I've cited My commands ignore.
"To the lonely Corner, broom! Hear your doom. As a spirit When he wills, your master only Calls you, then 'tis time to hear it."
************************************
If there is no reason to guide one, no experience to draw from, then wishes are often short-sighted. The 'ought', often covered under a cloak of all that is perceived to be good and grand, leads to disaster.
And in hindsight everybody saw it coming.
Mo Lamb
Gender : Posts : 276 Join date : 2013-02-02 Age : 41 Location : Northerly
Once I know what a wrist watch is, I can understand what it ought to do---and thus I can say, (if it doesn't do what it ought), that it is a bad wrist watch. ('Bad' or 'good' is an evaluation). The same applies for creatures such as us. I ought to learn, because otherwise I am not good at being what I am.
Valuation is inextricably bound up with the world. It's the point of philosophy. You can see it in yourself, and what you just said. You think that people ought not let their values skew their perception of reality. You are not perfectly content with everything you've said about modern nihilistic douche-bags. Have a proof: If someone you cared about was turning into a nihilistic douche-bag, would you have an objection for them? Or would you twiddle your thumbs and c'est la vie?
We are not purely computing machines, that by neutral language chart the world in black and white. Values colour the world, because what's valuable just are a kind of fact about the world itself---a fact about the kind of creature that you are, and what is good for you. Objectivity of value is grounded in the world and what you are.
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37114 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
Once I know what a wrist watch is, I can understand what it ought to do---and thus I can say, (if it doesn't do what it ought), that it is a bad wrist watch. ('Bad' or 'good' is an evaluation). The same applies for creatures such as us. I ought to learn, because otherwise I am not good at being what I am.
A wristwatch is a product of intent, based on the experience of the world.
The concept of "thing" has no reference in the world but is a contradiction of it, a reaction to it. Life is reactive. It becomes pro-active when it accumulates energies...is successful, on the other words.
No bad/good...only useful, useless, in regards to the particular mind's quality.
Mo wrote:
Valuation is inextricably bound up with the world. It's the point of philosophy. You can see it in yourself, and what you just said. You think that people ought not let their values skew their perception of reality.
Because I'm human and bound by the medium of language and of human abstraction.
The phrase "There is absolutely no absolute" is another example.
Mo wrote:
You are not perfectly content with everything you've said about modern nihilistic douche-bags. Have a proof: If someone you cared about was turning into a nihilistic douche-bag, would you have an objection for them? Or would you twiddle your thumbs and c'est la vie?
My emotional judgments re other than my rational ones.
Mo wrote:
We are not purely computing machines, that by neutral language chart the world in black and white.
No, we are computing machines still trapped in binary linguistic codes. We are trying to become artistic, seeing shades, and expressing them using languages produced by binary codes.
How does one describe fluidity using abstract dualistic black-white codes? Artistically....combining the black and white to make greys, or hues.
Mo wrote:
Values colour the world, because what's valuable just are a kind of fact about the world itself---a fact about the kind of creature that you are, and what is good for you. Objectivity of value is grounded in the world and what you are.
Yes, and they color them using emotions...hopes....needs.
Colors are meant to distinguish divergence, not to express preference.
When I say Negroes inherit a lower potential for intelligence, or abstract thinking, I am not saying I like it, or we ought to abuse this fact...I am describing an 'IS'. What one does with this is up to him and his values, ideals, principles of conduct.
I color the world to discern, to discriminate, not to abuse, or kill or destroy. Can this discernment lead to such actions? Yes...but that's not my problem when discussing reality as it is.
I use values in reference to the past (nature), you use it in reference to the future, the ideal, the ought. Does my practice color my ought...definitely. It directs it more accurately, in my view. But I begin with a pure need to know, not to feel, to see only what I want.
What I do with what I see is an entirely different subject. I use color to distinguish what has bee determined...then I project it as a ought. My motive is to see, even what I do not want to see. Does this affect what I think of and how I behave? Definitely. Do I construct values, ideals, based no what I saw. I would be a fool not to.
You, and your kind, confuse the two. You see only what you want to see, or you see and then hide it - you must keep it secret - and then you declare that all are like you.
THAT is a douche-bag...as an hypocrites.
Every damn conversation I've had became about me, my hypothetical motives, and how ill I was, or sexually frustrated or a loser. This is YOUR ilk. Everything I've described as being real, you fucks twisted into how I want things to be...because that's the only way you can think.
Life is not valuable because you like it. There's an objective reason it is more valuable than death. A temporal reason. It is not a universal reason, something all enjoy equally. Not ALL life is equally valuable, all the time.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37114 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
When I describe male/female attributes I do not do so claiming one is better. I, definitely, have a preference, and it shows in my language, but being a female is not bad, nor is being a male good.
Both male/female attributes participate in each and every individual...and each evolved for specific reasons, developing specific traits in greater degree, and others to a lesser degree.
Same goes for man and ape...human and canine. Neither is better than the other, from an objective standpoint. Each is superior in some areas and inferior in others. Depending on how you, as a person, evaluate these traits, and desire them for yourself, determines how you value them....but...
BUT, there is also a objective standard, separate form personal subjective tastes.
Time...flux.
My [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of quantity and quality, stands. I consider it the most objective I've come across.
I do not gain anything form these definitions...nor do I lose anything. I am challenged by them. Do they instruct my behaviors? Yes...otherwise what's the value of knowing if it does not aid you in your activities? They would be valueless, given the definitions themselves.
If anyone wishes to reduce all qualities to quantities, or make value a matter of personal circumstances (how fuckin' easy), then this exposes them and their motives.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Mo Lamb
Gender : Posts : 276 Join date : 2013-02-02 Age : 41 Location : Northerly
You, and your kind, confuse the two. You see only what you want to see, or you see and then hide it - you must keep it secret - and then you declare that all are like you.
THAT is a douche-bag...as an hypocrites.
Every damn conversation I've had became about me, my hypothetical motives, and how ill I was, or sexually frustrated or a loser. This is YOUR ilk. Everything I've described as being real, you fucks twisted into how I want things to be...because that's the only way you can think.
'My kind'?
I've never made a conversation about your motives, how you were frustrated or a loser. Nor do I have a position that I'm hiding, or unwilling to defend. Nor can you say I see only what I want to see.
I say what I mean, fairly clearly. Look at my last post. How I make valuations should be patently obvious from that post. But you butchered it. You lost my post in the pieces you cut up.
I placed value as something objective...the standard being temporal.
Frailty, by definition, is an inability to remain intact, for the long term. It's value is determined by the time it manages to remain intact...in other words, relevant, useful, interactive.
Rare does not mean frail. Rare may mean it takes longer to emerge, and longer to disappear.
Life is rare, in the universe...but it is persistent. Intelligence is also rare, yet far stronger, a more persistent survival tactic than speed, strength, constitutions, and yes, even beauty. THIS is why males dominate and females, though more aesthetically pleasing, are dominated. Intelligence is also about time....not some arbitrary word people pull out of their arse, describing everything from the inventor of peanut-butter, to an activist, and from a television star to a juggler.
Aesthetic beauty, is about order. Order is rare, in a universe that is a towards entropy. Intelligence is mental symmetry....order in the brain. It's advantage is efficiency, which has to do with the focused application of synergy, or aggregate energies.
Grace, eloquence, is also about focused energies...energies not lost in thrashing or ungainly actions.
When we speak of value we mean for an ordering mind...a life form. What requires effort to emerge and to remain. Frail only makes sense in relation to ordering, because chaos, disordering, happens with no effort.
Therefore, value only has meaning for a mind perceiving order, chaos being what cannot be perceived. When we speak of time, change, we mean in this increasing entropy linear experience of existence. Life being an ordering, it would be attracted to and value all instance of order...aesthetics being symmetry, which is another word for order.
Can we admire an ephemeral and fragile emergence of order? Yes. Is it valuable? No. It's frailty, its quick passing makes it useless, valueless, except as an insight into the frailty of order, within entropy.
Order reminds us of what is passed...that primordial ONE, as Nietzsche called it, but which, for me, was not one. It was an almost one. This nearness to absolute symmetry, absolute order, the singularity, is what we perceive in the beautiful.
This is why order, and its fragility, in general, is valuable to an ordering organism. The more persistent the ordering is, to entropy, the stronger it is....and so the more inspiring, and valuable it is. Value is subjective only in the sense hat it reflects an objective reality. Man, life, is attracted to order because he is ordering...and order is rare, in a universe tending towards randomness (chaos). Man is not attracted to whatever he likes, for whatever reason he comes up with.
His nature (past) determines what he finds valuable and attractive, and aesthetically pleasing, and valuable.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37114 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
Consciousness is a sophistication of life. Consciousness can discriminate. To discriminate is to perceive, to distinguish, to be aware...of a pattern. Patterns are forms of ordering. Life is a pattern.
Ergo only life can evaluate, can value. To value is to place one thing in higher regard than another. All judgments are value judgments, based on comparisons. At its most basic to perceive, to discriminate, is to compare an ordering, in reference to a background complexity of orderings.
Plants discriminate when in the dirt they discover, uncover, expose, and then assimilate elements they need...to persist. They find those valuable, because they are contributing to the plant's ordering. ordering only makes sense within a universe disordering, rending towards randomness (chaos).
Ergo, only for an ordering mechanism can order, or any element contributing to order, or exhibiting any degree of order, be valuable - only it can evaluate/discriminate. Its tastes are linked to its temporal essence. They are not fashion statements, or choices of free-will, or flavors of the month....they are determined to be valuable by the very temporal essence of life, an ordering.
Similarly, sex is pleasurable BECAUSE it satisfies an innate, inherited, preprogrammed, biological need...not the other way around, as some imbeciles try to make it.
Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder...it has to do with symmetry...in both mind and body. It has to do with identity, and a sense of self. we are attracted to what reminds us of ourselves, or is easy...path-of-least-resistance...or, depending on our self-esteem, we are attracted to a level of order superior to our own....to what "completes us".
The difference between agape and eros can be found here...in a psychological predisposition based on self-esteem, and self-knowledge...on identity.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37114 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
This temporal standard is objective in that it is not determined by human whims, human cultural influences, human fashions...it precedes and determines them.
Homosexuality is unfit not because I hate homosexuals or find their practices disgusting, but because they are parasitical from a genetic standpoint. They can only persist due to human interventions and due to sexual malformations, hormonal imbalances...and uncontrolled human reproduction passing on weak genes.
Men dominate not because I'm a man and I like to think so, but because their sexual role demands of them to think outside the social box....to challenge conformity, the alpha, the establishment. this is why philosophy, science, creativity is dominated by men....the quality of which surpasses anything a female can come up with, because a female follows trends, copies, imitates, tries to integrate, go by the rules, remain within the social harmony.
Blacks are not inferior just because I hate blacks or I'm insecure and am looking for someone to look down on...but because they are more than just pigmentation. their features are products of their entire history. They not only do not produce anything of quality in today's world, barely creating social trends, but they never have...not even before the European man discovered them and took advantage of their nature. Their entire history is base...primitive...physical not mental.
They make good entertainers, dancers, athletes, lovers, and not good workers, followers, thinkers... No amount of edumacation will change this. They may learn how to imitate, follow trends, copy...but they will never innovate anything that lasts...in time. Not in the arts, the sciences, the intellectual fields. Not even when they are mixed with European stock....they still fall short.
They can contribute, help, participate, help, but they do not revolutionize, expand, break intellectual barriers.
Can we admire an ephemeral and fragile emergence of order? Yes. Is it valuable? No. It's frailty, its quick passing makes it useless, valueless, except as an insight into the frailty of order, within entropy.
I beg to differ.
A thing with no value is not a thing worth of admiration.
It has no use, no purpose, no function. We create this object because we simply like to look at it. Its value is aesthetic.
It is orderly, but it is also frail. Can we increase its worth by removing its fragility? (this is a question with a subjective answer)
phoneutria: No. The very fragility of it is its worth. It is so delicate that it floats in the air. It exists for a moment and then it's gone. If you imagine that in your lifetime you could only create one single soap bubble, you would prepare for that moment, you would absorb every second of that image while you could.
You can create an object visibly identical to this made of polystyrene, which will never break, will be just as beautiful in appearance, and it will end up on the floor of a play room.
My point
I can abstract objective attributes from an object, and I can understand what the objective value of those attributes are, but I can also apply my own subjective judgment of value on those attributes.
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37114 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
Again...we admire order. It entails possibilities. the bubble is a small piece of order, balance, in a chaotic reality. It's the translucent spherical shape that makes it beautiful. Is it useful? Only if it is kept as a memory in a brain that is not so fragile and ephemeral.
A test... Would you give your life if it meant preserving the bubble?
Value is about time. Resistance to entropy.
The bubble is a marvel because despite its seaming fragility it persists. It is strong enough to resit.
Nature does not produce waste, dear. The aesthetic sense is not only about enjoying the image. it has to do with possibility.....health, virility....potential, and order.
You are lost in your romantic, idealism. You don't ask why you think something is delicious, or smells nice...you just surrender to the sensation. The universe was not created for your enjoyment, dear. It's not your amusement park. You find things pleasing because it helps you in the survival game.
Never start thinking, dear. I prefer you just the way you are...a simpleton, who thinks her stinger is deadly to a big ol' goat, like Satyr.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Last edited by Satyr on Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
0:27 ''A woman does not need a man to define herself, a woman does not need a man to raise *her* children and a woman does not need a man to be independent.''
OhFortunae
Gender : Posts : 2311 Join date : 2013-10-26 Age : 30 Location : Land of Dance and Song
_________________ 1. "Youth, oh, youth! | of whom then, youth, art thou born? Say whose son thou art, Who in Fafnir's blood | thy bright blade reddened, And struck thy sword to my heart."
2. "The Noble Hart | my name, and I go A motherless man abroad; Father I had not, | as others have, And lonely ever I live."
Recidivist
Gender : Posts : 435 Join date : 2012-04-30 Age : 48 Location : Exile
"The crucial process of civilization is the subordination of male sexual impulses and biology to the long-term horizons of female sexuality. In creating civilization, women transform male lust into love; channel wanderlust into jobs, homes, and families; link men to specific children; rear children into citizens; and change hunters to fathers. The prime fact of life is the sexual superiority of women." [George Gilder, Men and Marriage]
"The crucial process of civilization is the subordination of male sexual impulses and biology to the long-term horizons of female sexuality."
That has become the state of affairs in recent decades. And isn't that book bemoaning the recent decline of western civilization? Up to that point both sexes were restricted in their mating preferences. Long-term horizons of female sexuality... as if the woman who plans ahead long-term had the most children in all this time of tamed nature. Get pregnant and then he has to marry you. That's how you got commitment. That breeds a cunning and smart woman, not necessarily a long-term planning woman.
In a low-artificial environment, pressures which force people to successfully cooperate and develop long term planning, eventually lead up to the creation of a civilization. When nature is tamed and those pressures recede and the culture or later civilization is supposed to continue to thrive, then values and a way of thinking have to be fostered which emulate those pressures.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
I think that this bribing and bargaining of men turns them into man-whores. Some men enjoy being man-whores, they are well adapted to it but I'd like to see a different path to be taken.
All those laws in place don't make a man into a better man or a woman into a better woman, they just create a manmade environment to which men and women adapt to, usually taking the path of least resistance.
To create such areas where self-discipline, asceticism is being forged I find it useful to separate the sexes. So no dangling of a carrot - this turns men into boys and women into coy maidens. Part of civilized life should reflect the past where the male hunters were off hunting, away from the village.
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37114 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
