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 What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American?

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:57 pm

Thanks for mentioning Fritz Lang in the other topic. I've got to watch his Nibelungen on youtube. Amazing.

You know how it is. We are prisoners here. It's all Capitalism. But you cannot adapt to Capitalism. That's the problem. It makes you adapt and destroys you. I feel like everything is falling apart. The modernity hypothesis doesn't fit anymore. That was still talking of an alienated in-dividual. Today I see only consumers, cheaters, gossipers. Fragments of people. Animated memes. Trends. Fashions. Currents. No whole beings anymore. Postmodernism, is what I look into now.

The Americans at least got guns. We have nothing to protect ourself against this humanism. This all levelling, except to grow into own memes. Be a man. Become a man, as a child of a generation without fathers. Fathers whose spirits were broken to let this decline happen. Nietzschean Last Men. I see escapism on a large scale. People talk of progress, but stay stuck on the tools. Deluded. No sense for male and female differences foremost.

But not all are self-hating. There are some wonderful people. Decent, hard working. Self-hatred, otherwise called Nihilism, is something all have to overcome with all the power they've got. I'm thinking: people born between 1960 and 1970 have some potential. They are the post 1968 generation, but consciously went through some important decades. I am born in 1980, which is again too late ("No future generation" is even a meme).
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:20 pm

Laconian wrote:
Today I see only consumers, cheaters, gossipers. Fragments of people. Animated memes. Trends. Fashions. Currents. No whole beings anymore. Postmodernism, is what I look into now.

It's strange how Morris Berman, author of Dark Ages America, thinks that the USA is the only country suffering from a spiritual death and narcissism. It's every culture. I've been to and traveled in various places/locales, and it seems to me the there is very little difference between, say, the USA and Canada for example. I find Canadians often criticising Americans, but they're not much better. Europeans? They're a bit more cerebral, a bit anyhow, but I imagine that is not the case as much anymore as to how I recall when I visited frequently among family.

Anyway, what you mentioned is what I see too...nothing but consumers, people interested in idle talk, fragmented personalities, "animated memes" (I like that one), and an emphasis on trends, and so on. But hasn't that been the case for a while? I am reminded of Kierkegaard's writings, and the almost utter contempt he seemed to have for society at large. Or maybe I'm wrong.

I do agree feminism has caused some tremendous damage, and I agree with Satyr's points, but at the same time, people throughout time seem to have been, in general, dullards. Another POV I could mention is Hermann Hesse, in his novel Steppenwolf, there is another book that shows us that this common "mediocre" or lukewarm man has always been in existence, to some degree, although I do think it's gotten much worse today. Another author, Colin Wilson, also writes about such topics in his books The Outsider and Beyond the Outsider.

Maybe we are all just outsiders? Btw, not that it's important in the scheme of things, but I seem to be the only female outsider I know of, if can be said, except for one other female on this forum. That's pretty sad actually. All my life I have never met anyone of the female gender I could truly say had a good head on her shoulders.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:03 pm

Cold Weasel wrote:

I'm worried that "narcissism," "psychopathy," and other terms are being co-opted [...]

This is being done already. You might look into Alice Miller's first book "The drama of the gifted child". There is healthy narcissism. It's important to have a sense for self. In postmodernity this is more and more slipping away. People loose themselves, become fragments, play roles all the time, are never themselves. Those terms can be used and are used as weapons to make people silent. Like Star Signs too unfortunately. "Tell me your star sign, and I tell you what kind of a motherfucker you are." ("Motherfucker" from Freuds Oedipus Complex, the most shaming idea of all, to slander sexuality, connect it to guilt and the unnatural, the bad, the evil. Which eventually lead to 1968 as a reaction to Freud and Psychiatry, which was unnatural in its complete "liberation" as well.)
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:14 pm

Many Americans on here look for their European past, their roots. I see value in that and can relate having lived I the US for a year and traveled plenty. As a European on the otherhand, I admire the American Spirit. The brave personal freedom seeking spirit. (Gunrights, private property, homeschooling..). This is something I don't see over here at all. (Just "rebellion" in the weird class-war leftist sense, which is an open call for more enslavement.) There is in my opinion false and too much anti-americanism over here (while the worst parts are copied anyway). And Americans today seem to be overly self-critical. Seeing themselves as the leaders of the decline. Europeans struggle for their identity just as much or even more. For americans it is easy to romantacize, the ancient more noble european past. Living here this is not so easily possible. Since todays reality is very different.

I think Europeans can actually learn from Americans, not just the other way round. I have seen German Forums, but never encountered as fresh minds as on here. This is international, but there is a distinct american influence on here too. A very productive one.

Sloterdijk who's book discussion I posted in "Postmodernism" is an example of the intellectualism over here. It is superior to any other I know, still today. (But also impotent, in its heavyness!) We come from a long line of thinkers ... but that has turned us passive and melancholic. Look at the German thinkers: Heidegger, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Goethe and Kant, to name just the most famous ones and compare them with Shakespeare. There is nothing "light" about German thinkers. It's all heavy stuff. (Goethe tried some lightness, okay. So did Nietzsche.) Our strongest connection in Europe therefor is France, who with their l'art de vivre, know how to live lightly, concentrate on the more important factors in life and leave out the rest.

Sloterdijk is a product of Germany today. A form of Leftism that is so self-reflected/self-aware, that can't even be called Leftism anymore. A form of Religiosity that is so academic, that it can't be called religious anymore. An academic hubris that is so above and beyond any other nation in the world. A form of Nihilism that is beyond measure. A political correctness that is so kant-ian that makes anything else look barbaric (what Caesar described the Germans of his time as: Barbarians, maybe this is where people here wanted to get away from, the image of the barbaric tribes in history). An academia so high above any other in the world.


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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:18 pm

If you want to, lighten your heart...go further back.

The Hellenes had the charisma of boys playing on the waves of the Aegean.
Zorba dances, and laughs, dealing with life and its conundrums.

The children of the light teach us how to be human.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:36 pm

Zorba is great. But his pupil was british/greek himself, not german. So again Shakespeare versus Goethe/Nietzsche. I wonder if Zorba had even seen potential in a german guy and what that movie would have been like.

I like this topic. Nationalities definitely play a role.

Today I observed an elderly muslim woman arguing with her husband. I've never seen that before. So Feminization is even reaching traditional Islam. (With the younger generation I've seen that before.)

I might read the book you recommended on how Philosophy became socratic. My impression of what I learn from the post socratic thinkers (who are mostly presented) is that they are top-heavy. And then I know some of the myths of course and they are very much about fighting and all sorts of fantastic elements.

So I don't actually know where this Zorba character "comes from" (mimetically). But he gets me curious in Greece or Hellas.

I've been to Rhodos, and some parts of the mainland too. Maybe the sunny weather and the insane beauty of the landscape play a role too. This is the Ruine of Monolithos (on Rhodos):

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:37 am

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:47 am

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:46 pm

Putting my favorite topic on top of the list again..

I may have done this topic injustice, when I first answered to it. I think nationality is a very defining topic. What is a nation? What is a culture? It is more than just borders, a defined geography. It is a common history. A shared language, belief systems, rituals, ..

Focussing on just race alone, to me doesn't solve the current problems either. Liberals (like Sloterdijk) will always find ways to point at the race-mixings throughout history. Alexander the Great even ordered race mixing.

This may belong in the other topic ("Race Mixing"), but the idiotic meme seems to be very strong that the strongest traits of each race are passed on and manifest in a multi-ethnic, mixed race but still superior future mankind.

This too relates to the progressivist agenda of cybernetics. Transhumanism, as others call it. The merging of man with his machines.
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:07 pm

The issue of race-mixing is an interesting one.
Female promiscuity can be explained, if we explore it honestly.

Male promiscuity is more direct and obvious.
A male has a shelf-life, and so seeding as fast as possible, as many females as possible, is his procreative goal.
He becomes obsessed with it, though he is the less sexual of the two sexes.

Control over female promiscuity is short-lived. A female is a force of nature, and trying to control females is like trying to control a river, or an avalanche.
Paternalism is the end result of this attempt to control and to direct female sexuality, and along with it male sexuality.
It is also why with Modernity we are discussing a feminization of man, rather
than a masculinization of man.


Female promiscuity is a bit more complex.
She is both driven to maintain loyalties, so as to enable her offspring to grow to maturity, and she is also driven to expand the gene-pool, so as to preserve one or more of her offspring against non-organic threats: climate, disease, environmental changes in general, and so on.

For her sampling another tribe's genes is beneficial to her genetic continuance in the long-term.

Yes, she wants to reproduce the dominant genes, but she also wants to propagate a more varied expression of it, and she also wants to hedge her bets, and propagate the less dominant genes...just in case things drastically change.

Change is a feminine game; males try to prevent it from occurring.
This is why tribalism, with its particular morays and ideals and behavioral standards, has always been a male obsession.

A female is, or was, often traded or taken as booty, and she is made to adapt and to serve whatever genes she is controlled by.
She surrenders with ease, because resistance would be her death.

Her nature is to give-in, to bend, to go-along, and to follow.

Males are less prone to go outside their racial group, unless they feel that their own group has been emasculated, and/or degraded, and/or weakened, to such an extent that racial sampling becomes, for them, both a form of vengeance, and a way of reintegrating their tribe's genetic profile back into the gene pool, by fertilizing another tribe's females who are more than willing to give-in.

Amongst the Negroes it is the males who more often go outside their racial group, whereas male Orientals, and Europeans, to a lesser extent, are less likely to do so.

Amongst the females of these groups we find the influence of culture and of intelligence.

Cultures in decline are those who have lost control over their females, allowing them to go outside the racial or tribal, or national lines, and forcing their own males to do so just to compensate.

Negro females are less likely to marry outside their race for two
reasons:

1- Males of other races find them less attractive, both physically and mentally, and would go outside their race only out of desperation.

2- Because of current cultural debasement, these, more sophisticated races are less attractive to Negro females and to any female who is returned to a primal, simplistic, sexual existence (dumbed-down). The more animalsitic Negro male is more attractive to females just released from the bonds of
civilization – what they call Paternalism; well, at least somewhat liberated.

For a female race-mixing is a wonderful thing; for males it is an affront to everything he is and stands for.
If he be a true man, that is, and not an emasculated modern.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:51 pm

Interracial relationships, in the west, have become a form of retribution (female emancipation, and race equality are intertwined), of release from the bonds of European male dominance (symptom of a cultural disease called Nihilism), and of sexual fetishism, primarily amongst the European male, caused by thousands of years of sheltering.

The modern European boy begins to feel his own degradation, being a product of many generations of “rightful” procreation, and he also begins to feel his own emasculation, at the hands of unknown forces, and invisible phenomena, he internalizes as self-hatred.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:00 pm

A white female is the only avenue through which a white male can reproduce himself.

The loss of control of this means of replication will result in a descent into extinction.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:06 pm

Satyr wrote:

2- Because of current cultural debasement, these, more sophisticated races are less attractive to Negro females and to any female who is returned to a primal, simplistic, sexual existence (dumbed-down). The more animalsitic Negro male is more attractive to females just released from the bonds of
civilization – what they call Paternalism; well, at least somewhat liberated.

For a female race-mixing is a wonderful thing; for males it is an affront to everything he is and stands for.
If he be a true man, that is, and not an emasculated modern.

I see the problem of immigration mainly in their willingness to take any job they can for any wage offered (thereby maintaining Capitalism). This is destroying the market and popularizing the marxist critique (theory of alianation) and benefiting the old Left.

In the end a negroe would do a job a white man wouldn't for a low wage a white man wouldn't work for. So the immigrants actually take over todays workforce in the lower income sector. But since the middle class is taxed into the lower income sector and the lower income sector is sponsored, those become more and more levelled.

I see weakness put on a pedestal. Women, foreigners, .. and since white identity has been shamed, there is almost no counter force. So what the Right might gain from the (better) liberal discourse (intellectuals like Sloterdijk) is their widened focus on what constitutes a nation. And that is the Arts, Literature, and so on. A shared language.

These intellectual Liberals may be more ordering (civilized) than some Rightist, who still focus on more barbaric (earlier) tribal structures and detest civilization as being liberal as such..

What would happen if immigrants were required to prove their language skills.. after taking some required courses..? I think they would behave differently, more civilized. More self reflecting. The Jews have a long intellectual history (3000 years), the people from the anatolian regions, that are creating todays parallel societies come from a history of illiterate peasants. This is the difference.

What I see is the parallel societies, that hate the nations they live in, destroying these nations.

A Jew can read and write, why he is seen as white, by most liberals. People from the muslim countries have a more primitive backround.
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:13 pm

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I have heard that this Liberal twit, used to enjoy watching his wife fornicate with other males.
More than just pornography.

Perhaps, we may find something akin to this fetish in interracial porn.
The display is one of parity....of human equality, ye the pelasure derived through ti is one of vengeful release of anger.
Like watching a female fornicate with an animal.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:52 pm

apaosha wrote:
A white female is the only avenue through which a white male can reproduce himself.

The loss of control of this means of replication will result in a descent into extinction.

How do you define the White Race? or a White Man?

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Lyssa wrote:
How do you define the White Race?

Indo-European derivatives. Northern European, Northern Mediterranean, Eurasian.

Talk about a pure white race is misleading as there is variation within any grouping. Pure implies homogeneity, uniformity. All whites are not clones. A generality like race denotes a range in which individuals fall within, not a rigid absolute.
You could further divide the race into sub-races or ethnicities; nordic, celtic, germanic, greek, slav, etc. This would include Ashkenazim, as they are derivatives genetically of all of the above.

I am a celt, with a little scandinavian through the Normans on my father's side. There are distinct differences in appearance, behaviour and psychology between my own people and for example the slavs.... of which there are many now in Ireland. Bone structure, pigmentation and inherent psychological predisposition are not the products of cultural differences, upbringing, nurture or what have you. So these 2 groups are both white, yet they are distinct from eachother on a basis that goes beyond learned behaviour. It is an inescapable, inherent difference on the level of genetics.

In the same way, any category could be infinitely broken down into sub-categories: whites become Celtic, celtic becomes a family of celts, a family becomes an individual, an individual becomes the various body parts of that individual - bones, flesh, organs... which can be further subdivided.
Point is, again, such a categorisation is an approximation of where in a range an individual subject will occur. Variation within a categorisation is not an invalidation of that categorisation, nor does it refute it unless the variation occurs beyond the range set by the categorisation.

Beyond the biological, you can like the Greeks with their Hellenism consider non-whites Westernized if they are raised in a certain way, speak the language and have been trained to function in Western society. But they are not White. White is a race, which is analogous to breeds in dogs; a difference at the genetic level which carries with it inherent differences in phenotype, psychology, temperament, intelligence, sociability and whatever other variable you care to name.

Funny how my Golden Cocker Spaniel is of a breed known for Rage Syndrome.... yet this knowledge that genetics affects behavioural psychology is never applied to humans.

Quote :
or a White Man?

The Germans had an Ideal:

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Look at those eyes. That predatory intellect. The aggressive thinker.

Negroes are typified by excess and exaggeration. Aggression without reason. Emotion without thoughtfulness. Huge penises, or tits or asses, compensating for what is missing. Or an over-specialization.
East Asians are the reverse. High intellect, drone-like discipline and a reverence for the group. Minimal aggression, extreme restraint within their sheltered environments... which when broken like with the Mongolians and especially the Japanese reaches the opposite extreme. Small, slender bodies. Physically unaccomplished.

I said before somewhere that Caucasians occupy the median between specialization in physicality and intellect, emotion and reason. They didn't over-specialize and that this may account for their global dominance. Aggression tempered by reason. Reason empowered by aggression.

The Ideal of a white male, would be the god-king; the personification of his culture and his people. Gods like Zeus, Odin, Thor, Jupiter, An Dagda.
This individual would be the product of everything his nation valued and aspired towards, the evidence of their high achievement. To the Pagans, the Gods were super-humans, idealized, perfect human beings.
Also surpassable and conquerable. Contrast this with the various semetic cults and their omnipotent, omniscient abstraction, distant, unattainable, unreachable, before which mankind can only bow in ignorance. There is a lot there that is being said of the different characters of the peoples who crafted those mythologies. Christianization of Europe destroyed a great deal.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:42 pm

That is a neat presentation.

You say, "Beyond the biological, you can like the Greeks with their Hellenism consider non-whites Westernized if they are raised in a certain way, speak the language and have been trained to function in Western society. But they are not White. White is a race, which is analogous to breeds in dogs; a difference at the genetic level which carries with it inherent differences in phenotype, psychology, temperament, intelligence, sociability and whatever other variable you care to name."

I think likewise, but to pause here;
You have a difference between a bio-genetic race and as you say and what I call a race of memetic-Carriers grafted non-biologically/culturally alone, on an alien population that becomes functionally-'white'; but what of that section that is White in appearance and genetically, but the mind of a non-I.E.? Would you call this section White-degenerates or non-Whites?
What weight would you place on a non-White I.E.-Carrier as against a White in biology only - do you value memes or genes more given the conditions today?
Given that you have said, any route other than a genetic white female is sure white-extinction,
I'm assuming you lean towards the latter..., in which case, hypothetically speaking, you'd rather choose a white-jewess or a white-muslim to a mongolian-buddhist?


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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:16 pm

Genes before memes. I want my children to look like like me, to be continuations of my genetic line. If genes were the only consideration, or at least the primary one, then a jew or muslim with the right genes would be preferable to a non-white woman with a brilliant mind and an heroic meme... of course.

I saw a girl yesterday on the way home with porcelain white skin, red hair and blue eyes. I don't want that to disappear. I want a place in the future for that kind of beauty.
This desire is it's own meme. The gene finding it's continuance in the meme, as opposed to the conflict between the two which leads to mongrelization. I'm not red-haired or blue-eyed myself but I would prefer that those phenotypes be preserved.

But this is only with regard to preservation, conservation. Which is a passive, defensive point of view with an implication of the past opposing and resisting the present and future, rather than seeing them as the past's avenue of continuation, advancement. The implication of the has-been, the overcome, the fading, the replaced. Not ... progressivist, with it's implications of forward movement, newness, creation, it's claim on the future and associations with race-mixing, miscegenation and multi-culturalism.

Interesting that a mono-dominant racial future is considered taboo, when in nature we see competition between various genetically distinct organisms for resources and territory, the eventual victor wiping out it's competitors and emerging as the only occupant of it's niche.

Interesting also that Jewishness passes from the mother. A willingness to incorporate the other within the self, as opposed to a resistance to and opposition of the self against the other. A very effeminate strategy. "The only race is the human race."

How does the meme become the gene? Do you think it is possible that individuals from certain races being bearers of certain traits could be combined - bred - in order to result in a higher, nobler species?
What traits? What races? Towards what goal and in what combinations? What would be lost through these combinations and how could or should that be avoided?

Is the Ubermensch the product of a eugenics program?

Quote :
You have a difference between a bio-genetic race and as you say and what I call a race of memetic-Carriers grafted non-biologically/culturally alone, on an alien population that becomes functionally-'white'; but what of that section that is White in appearance and genetically, but the mind of a non-I.E.? Would you call this section White-degenerates or non-Whites?

I said "westernized", not "becomes white".

If we are to say that the concept of the West as a memetic group is the creation of a genetic lineage, whites, and that this memetic grouping can be applied to non-whites, then we are describing a memetic conquest.

But the memetic group called the "West" is a construct of Hellenism and Judaism, not the race as a whole.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:05 pm

apaosha wrote:
Genes before memes. I want my children to look like like me, to be continuations of my genetic line. If genes were the only consideration, or at least the primary one, then a jew or muslim with the right genes would be preferable to a non-white woman with a brilliant mind and an heroic meme... of course.

From a Male point of view, I don't see how marrying a staunch jew/muslim female and entrusting the raising of your child to such a woman can ensure continuity of your genetic line - maybe one generation, maybe two... with the possibility of dominant semitic values, this child might open your line to alien races as that is the semitic mentality.
There's a self-conscious "white" jew who'd want to inculcate jewish values to her child, and the liberal kind of "white" jew who'd want to let the child decide for itself, etc. - a non-interfering non-chalance. So, relatively speaking, would a Dominant White male, have a slightly better chance of inculcating His values and ensuring his genetic line with the latter than the former?
On the one hand, if I look at Nietzsche, its children born from very staunch religious backgrounds that strive and turn out to be free-spirited, and on the other, if I look at Laconian, children born to atheist parents drift to Xt. and Xt. churches out of 'curiosity' and 'feel at home' there. Of course, these are extreme individual cases, but I'm noting range of possibilities. So, in the end, marrying either kind of semite is a risk, although a male might prob. find it less insulting and more hopeful of his line, marrying the latter than the former.

This is feasible from a strictly Male point of view; for, any self-respecting female marrying a self-respecting jew/muslim male would have to abandon her heritage to the one she's marrying into and carry on his tradition as any proud male would insist - this is unthinkable.

Any self-respecting person would want to uphold the conditions that upheld them. This is Themis/Dharma.
To desert your own at their low point of decadence would count as a kind of self-betrayal. So a self-respecting female would value and risk a reasonable white trash to an alien other with a strong I.E. meme.

But if White-degenerates, as in someone who is irreligious or totally dud/brain-dead, and who would leave the upbringing to his woman, do not exist, then the only choice left is between a non-white I.E.-meme-carrier and death; she could go either way, and I regard either path noble.
If we understand every new Beginning comes with a Sacrifice, a necessary death, and what is genetic loss here is a memetic gain to the Same Race, then that woman would have to be counted as equally self-respecting. She transfers blood and keeps the fire going. This would be salutory, and brave.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:06 pm

Quote :
I saw a girl yesterday on the way home with porcelain white skin, red hair and blue eyes.

Sounds pretty.

Quote :
I don't want that to disappear.

I understand.

Quote :
I want a place in the future for that kind of beauty.
This desire is it's own meme. The gene finding it's continuance in the meme, as opposed to the conflict between the two which leads to mongrelization. I'm not red-haired or blue-eyed myself but I would prefer that those phenotypes be preserved.

I differentiate between a body I inherit and a body that I have made my Own. We come into this world with all sorts of desires, multivarious drives, all natural growing in their own directions, but I can't call my body mine unless I have tempered it [ranked my drives in a certain order in a way my body permits me to] and made it my own, initiated myself - gave birth to myself from myself like Odin or what the Gita says. Blind indulgence in a desire does not speak Me; its a body that speaks 'through' me, which in the extreme is what we call Madness, pathos-logic-al.
Self-indulgence is a yielding.
Initiation is overcoming of self-control through self-control [from contra- + rolling - against rolling].
Every desire has to be sifted coldly to the bottom till there remains no difference between body and self - what is called "effortless effort" - to act with no consciousness of struggle. To initiate yourself means to become like a self-rolling or self-propelling wheel [I recall Zarathustra's 'child' here - that innocence which wills its own willing, a first movement, etc.]. - you put yourself on automatic and free yourself to other things.
Initiation is the will for Restraint-Without-Pleasure. Taking pleasure in self-restraint becomes another indulgence, another yielding-to. Initiation is rather self-joy. Then yes, desire Is its own meme.

There's also the need to differentiate those who want to mingle with other races from slavish self-hatred [passive nihilism], and those from affirmative self-hatred [active nihilism, wanting to overcome and perfect and enrich themselves, etc.].

I'm not well-informed in this stream, perhaps you can tell me if redheads are known for any distinctive characteristic, temperament, skill or evolutionary advantage?

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:07 pm

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But this is only with regard to preservation, conservation. Which is a passive, defensive point of view with an implication of the past opposing and resisting the present and future, rather than seeing them as the past's avenue of continuation, advancement. The implication of the has-been, the overcome, the fading, the replaced. Not ... progressivist, with it's implications of forward movement, newness, creation, it's claim on the future and associations with race-mixing, miscegenation and multi-culturalism.

I think calling it 'passive' would confuse things.
The Active masculine Apollonian drive is defensive and conservative.
The Active feminine Dionysian drive is corrosive and expansionist.

Restraint and putting the brakes on something is as Active a stance than creating crap just to 'survive at any cost' - a typically jewish meme. The Aryan meme - to me, is not just about living, but How one lives.
The great flowers of our race - Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Hitler, etc. all died childless... this can be taken both as something to be objected
[as in such geniuses should never die childless in the future - that's what they were fighting for!], or something to be emulated [as in knowing how to live and when to die - leading by example, death too sets its own standards and real-izes a peculiar meme... we call Aryan or Hyperborean].

As far as I have studied, the Vedics, the Greeks, the Romans, and the Iranians had a dual concept of the Domus and the Familia/Grossefamilie.

Roughly put, the Domus meant the homestead of blood-kinships that could accomodate slaves, from a social point of view. [Greeks called this Oikos 'participation in food and worship'.]
Familia meant the household of all members under the arche of a Man, his authority, from a legal point of view.

So even if a Roman Man did not have children genetically, possessed no Domus, he could still be a Patriarch and Expand his Family-line through adoption of another boy, or freeing a slave, and have his property transferred on the condition the latter would continue his 'Family'.

"Wealthy aristocrats adopted adult sons in their wills on condition that as heirs they assume the testator's nomen.15 The underlying
premise is the notion that continuity of the familia and its name is, in itself, of some importance. Consequently, Seneca (Ben. 3.334) could describe a son as a beneficium (favor) to his father on the ground that the son would provide domus ac familiae perpetuitas (the continuation of house and family). The honor of the familia had an existence apart from its individual members." [Richard Saller, Patriarchy, Property and Death]

"Lat. domus, which designates not an edifice, but the “home” as a social entity, whose incarnation is the dominus. Consequently, domus entered into contrasting pairs, the second term of which designates what is outside the circle of the home: domi militiaeque, domi : peregre, domesticus : rusticus; the couple domi : foris ‘home-outside’ shows that the word *dhwer- ‘door’ designated the frontier, seen from inside, between the inside and the outside world." [Benveniste, I.E. Language and Society]

"The Roman household was conceived of as an economic and juridical unit or estate: familia originally meant the group of the famuli (the servi or serfs and slaves of a rural estate) living under the same roof. This meaning later expanded to indicate the familia as the basic Roman social unit, which might include the domus (house or home) but was legally distinct from it—a familia might own one or several homes. All members and properties of a familia were subject to the authority of a pater familias: his legal, social and religious position defined familia as a microcosm of the Roman state.
In Roman law, the potestas of the pater familias was official but distinct from that of magistrates.
Only a Roman citizen held the status of pater familias and there could only be one holder of the office within a household. He was responsible for its well-being, reputation and legal and moral propriety. The entire familia was expected to adhere to the core principles and laws of the Twelve Tables, which the pater familias had a duty to exemplify, enjoin and if necessary enforce, so within the familia Republican law and tradition (mos maiorum) allowed him powers of life and death (vitae necisque potestas)." [[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]]

"In legal terms, familia included all those under the power of the pater familias; sometimes it meant only the slaves. The pater familias was usually the oldest male. His heirs were under his power, as were the slaves, but not necessarily his wife. A boy without mother or children could be a pater familias. In non-legal terms, the mother/wife could be included in the familia, although the term usually used for this unit was domus, which we translate as 'home'." [Richard Saller, 'Familia, Domus', and the Roman Conception of the Family; Phoenix, Vol. 38, No. 4. (Winter, 1984), pp. 336-355.]

"The duty of perpetuating the domestic worship was the foundation of the law of adoption among the ancients. ...When a son was adopted, it was necessary, first of all, that he should be initiatedinto a form of worship, "introduced into a domestic religion, brought into thepresence of new Penates."
Adoption, therefore, was accompanied by a ceremonyvery like that which took place at the birth of a son. In this way the new comer wasadmitted to the hearth, and associated in the new religion. Gods, sacred objects, rites,prayers, all became common between him and his adopted father. They said of him, In sacra transiit — He has passed to the worship of the new family.
...The foundation of relationship was not birth; it was worship." [Coulanges, Ancient City]

So, to the ancients, whether a Male possessed a Domus or not, he had to Expand his Family. Go Dionysian.

For the same reason, a Female had to be Conservative and guard the sanctity of her Domus, her hearth. Go Apollonian.

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:08 pm

Quote :
Interesting also that Jewishness passes from the mother. A willingness to incorporate the other within the self, as opposed to a resistance to and opposition of the self against the other. A very effeminate strategy. "The only race is the human race."

Yes, exactly.

This makes the concept of Rape interesting.

A self-respecting female would resist an Outsider - this would be an indication of her health. To an outside alpha-male, this would appear attractive; the more she resists, the more healthier she appears and he wants to partake of that health.
So while to an alpha-male, it is her health that incites rape, to a zeta-male, it is a woman's weakness and her vulnerability that makes her attractive to him. It helps differentiate where Zeus-Hades part.

Quote :
Interesting that a mono-dominant racial future is considered taboo, when in nature we see competition between various genetically distinct organisms for resources and territory, the eventual victor wiping out it's competitors and emerging as the only occupant of it's niche.

I think nature's waxing/waning cycle Is to prevent complete wiping out, in favour of subjugations that preserve diversity...

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:09 pm

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How does the meme become the gene?

To Nietzsche, it is through digestion and digestion meant proper proportion, Knowing Oneself - Nothing in excess. Roman acculturation of Greek memes... how much did they manage to incorporate? - We can only speak of it in degrees.
To Evola, regular command and obedience automate over time after homogenous generations into blood-instincts. We can say a meme has become a successful gene when it starts flourishing, becomes life-enhancing.
Satyr gives the example of how a whole meme of shared victimhood engendered the Jews as a 'race'.

Quote :
Do you think it is possible that individuals from certain races being bearers of certain traits could be combined - bred - in order to result in a higher, nobler species?
What traits? What races? Towards what goal and in what combinations? What would be lost through these combinations and how could or should that be avoided?

Every race has a potential for absorbing or seeding the other. But memes that blend in can be blended out too. Children born to Xt. families and raised in Xt. atmosphere still manage to break out...
Its not just Reason, but the Spirit, the Will for reasoning that must be present - a temperament, an attitude to be cultivated, a rigorous discipline that can blend out the memes that blended in since generations.
I was reading Sloterdijk's 'Critique of Cynicism' recently - a fantastic work, and he implies that a person with Intelligence and no Will is like a Cynic who knows what's happening but lacks the spirit to do anything about it.
The first goal would be to train for a fit body. A sound mind needs a sound body to support it in act, in spirit, in deed.
The second goal which relates to Satyr's recent post on the Meta-narrative thread, is the undertaking of wide-scale temple constructions. We need Architecture - a place that sets a rhythm, a tradition going. The reason Xt. manages to brainwash others into a blank state while it continues to thrive is because of Architecture - it makes a 'brotherhood' and 'community' possible because there is 'space' where people are regulated by well-acknowledged rituals, a familiarity.
Unless the norm and such new gods are not given space, the rare godlike god-less exceptions cannot flourish either.
The 'ultimate' goal must be about raising the bar of the human species, which is only possible through the coming about of very elite individuals, artist-tyrants, noble-criminals, philosopher-kings, whatever one might call them.

As to which races should combine, I don't know. The experimentation has been so haphazard and untidy, but surely white-black combination after all these years did not create any genius in any field,, atleast not that I know of.
Whites and Jews have been "successful" in the jewish sense, and that's enough said.
Whites and Asians - 'have no idea.

I think speaking of race and racial combinations in this wholescale sense is no longer going to be meaningful... its gone so corrupt, only traditions and beliefs are left as indicators for who's who.
We might have to afford to take the path of a creative-destruction, i.e. endure the destruction of a line and graft a carrier meme, and create anew. The Heraclitean 'child' or aion starts anew again and again from scratch, joyfully and unwearily, when the flux washes away its old world.
But wherever homogeneity reigns and has reigned so far in the full [genetic+memetic] sense, it should continue to do so. It makes no sense to disturb and break a perfectly working line to experiment a new one in this age.

In your case, you have the advantage of age with you. Domus, then Familie too... maybe...!

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:09 pm

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Is the Ubermensch the product of a eugenics program?

N. was perfectly clear in AC, that by the breeding of the Overman, he did Not mean a Transhuman project as in what would succeed man as a species, but to him, it was a question of "what kind of Man" should be bred... - it was in terms of a sovereign temperament, spirit, nature, attitude that he thought could come about only through caste-like segregations among certain stocks of noble blood. The segregating system would separate each man according to the nature he exhibited and refined cultivation of it through sub-castes within castes would refine man further and further. I think he meant the practiSe of Sovereignty itself would be bred out as a specialization - a Race of Men apart who only knew how to Rule and Legislate and set standards of Nobility, etc.


Quote :

Quote :
You have a difference between a bio-genetic race and as you say and what I call a race of memetic-Carriers grafted non-biologically/culturally alone, on an alien population that becomes functionally-'white'; but what of that section that is White in appearance and genetically, but the mind of a non-I.E.? Would you call this section White-degenerates or non-Whites?

I said "westernized", not "becomes white".

If we are to say that the concept of the West as a memetic group is the creation of a genetic lineage, whites, and that this memetic grouping can be applied to non-whites, then we are describing a memetic conquest.

But the memetic group called the "West" is a construct of Hellenism and Judaism, not the race as a whole.

Yes, I noted that; its why I put white in quotes. By "functionally-'white'" - whatever construct functions as White for all practical purposes. Today's West is a Jewish west and you have people like Natalie here saying they are the real 'Whites'!

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:26 pm

Lyssa wrote:
I'm not well-informed in this stream, perhaps you can tell me if redheads are known for any distinctive characteristic, temperament, skill or evolutionary advantage?

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"A team working with Lars Arendt-Nielsen of the International Association for the Study of Pain, that also conducts research at Aalborg University in Denmark, wanted to find out more about red heads’ reaction to pain. They conducted research on 20, pale-skinned women with red hair, and 20 women with dark or blonde hair. They applied a cream containing chili pepper on their skin and left it for a half hour. All the subjects reacted identically. In a second round of the experiment, the researchers irritated the women’s skin mechanically: and here, red heads turned out to be a lot less sensitive to the pain.

"Arendt-Nielsen and his team reached the conclusion that redheads are less sensitive to certain types of pain such as needle pricks or applied pressure. It seems that the pain resulting from exposure to cold or heat is processed differently by the body than pressure, pricks and scratches. Redheads are less sensitive to the latter, and more to the former."

My Mom, sister, and I are red-headed. Both our families carry the gene. My hair was a vivid burnt-orange when I was little, same as my Mom's. Now it's becoming lighter and blonde. My sister's hair is bright orange.

Anecdotally I can confirm most of these pain sensitivity traits. Funny story about requiring more anesthetic: My Mom had surgery to remove a disc in her lower back. She remembers waking up during the operation and groggily asking the doctors if they needed any assistance. They said "Oh my god...No, thank you." Then she was out again.
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:22 pm

Cold Weasel wrote:
Lyssa wrote:
I'm not well-informed in this stream, perhaps you can tell me if redheads are known for any distinctive characteristic, temperament, skill or evolutionary advantage?

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Quote :
"A team working with Lars Arendt-Nielsen of the International Association for the Study of Pain, that also conducts research at Aalborg University in Denmark, wanted to find out more about red heads’ reaction to pain. They conducted research on 20, pale-skinned women with red hair, and 20 women with dark or blonde hair. They applied a cream containing chili pepper on their skin and left it for a half hour. All the subjects reacted identically. In a second round of the experiment, the researchers irritated the women’s skin mechanically: and here, red heads turned out to be a lot less sensitive to the pain.

"Arendt-Nielsen and his team reached the conclusion that redheads are less sensitive to certain types of pain such as needle pricks or applied pressure. It seems that the pain resulting from exposure to cold or heat is processed differently by the body than pressure, pricks and scratches. Redheads are less sensitive to the latter, and more to the former."

My Mom, sister, and I are red-headed.  Both our families carry the gene.  My hair was a vivid burnt-orange when I was little, same as my Mom's.  Now it's becoming lighter and blonde.  My sister's hair is bright orange.    

Anecdotally I can confirm most of these pain sensitivity traits.  Funny story about requiring more anesthetic: My Mom had surgery to remove a disc in her lower back.  She remembers waking up during the operation and groggily asking the doctors if they needed any assistance.  They said "Oh my god...No, thank you."  Then she was out again.    


That was really funny; I had no idea...
Thanks for sharing the article.

But the MC1R gene attributed to pain-coping is also supposed to be more susceptible to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:59 am

Lyssa wrote:
the MC1R gene attributed to pain-coping is also supposed to be more susceptible to cancer?

I think it's well-known that melanoma risk is high in redheads. Sunburns come easily and quickly. I've had two second-degree sunburns in my life which I REEEEALLY wish never happened. (Though I'm able to tan better than the real hardcore frecklemongers, if I prepare for it. Me and mine aren't especially freckly actually.)

But what you linked to says it's not dependent solely on ultraviolet radiation, which I wasn't aware of.

As for other characteristics, the lore surrounding redheads is easy to find. I've heard some girls in high school (when they speak more freely about such things than later) talk openly about being creeped out by redheaded kids.

The curly-haired freckle-faced freak is an archetypal figure in pop culture I'd say. Lots of people feel repulsed by it.

My little sister was affected negatively by that kind of thing in her childhood. (You know how girls are.) So there may be social factors producing psychological baggage that expresses itself in "bitchiness" or other traits attributed to redheaded women. Or, it could be more attributable to the pain-experience genes. Both/and.

Ever heard "I'ma slap you like a redheaded stepchild!"? That one always got to me. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Yes, it says UV-independent... maybe high pain thresholds and high stress being a cause for cancer are interlinked. Sorry.

But who knows.

Botticelli's Venus is depicted as a redhead... Wink

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:35 pm

In English traditions Judas, Lilith, and IIRC even the Devil, are said to have had red hair.

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"Judas (Was a Red-Headed Man)"

There were twelve bonfires burning in a field
Judas, Judas
There was one for Peter, there was one for John
Every disciple he had one
Judas, Judas
There was one for James who died by the sword
The biggest and the best was for our dear Lord
Burn, burn, Judas burn slow
Bright, bright, bright for our dear Lord's sake.
Burn slow for Judas
Judas was a red-headed man

There was one for Judas and it stood all alone
Judas, Judas
Down by the marish and it smoked away
Smoked all night and it smoked all day
Judas, Judas
'Twas a proper green smoke for all to see
But the fire burned sweet for our Lord on the Tree
Burn, burn, Judas burn slow
Bright, bright, bright for our dear Lord's sake
Burn slow for Judas
Judas was a red-headed man
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Wed May 01, 2013 11:52 am


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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:37 pm

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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Lyssa
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:53 pm

Cold Weasel wrote:
In English traditions Judas, Lilith, and IIRC even the Devil, are said to have had red hair.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:31 pm

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:28 am

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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PostSubject: Re: What does it mean to be a true Greek? ...Irish? ...American? Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:21 pm

Some dry very generalized history.

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"ἐδιζησάμην ἐμεωυτόν." [Heraclitus]

"All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both." [Aeschylus, Prometheus]

"The history of everyday is constituted by our habits. ... How have you lived today?" [N.]

*Become clean, my friends.*
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