I don't like this new side of Satyr. Way too much self loathing.
I take full responsibility for it. In this case my actions placed me here.
But, if I understood correctly, this could be an instance where I can claim innocence and be a victim.
If a girl goes out with no panties and a dress up to her crotch, then I think she is an innocent victim of her youth. Like taking a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and being shot down over the Ukraine.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37359 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
In my humbled opinion it seems like we've made some headway.
We now see some distant line in the sand: ignorance.
Ignorance = Innocence
A child is innocent because it knows not. An ignoramus is innocent because he knows not. A retarded mind also innocent, for the same reasons. It is life's unpredictability that make us all innocent victims. Of course, the less you know the better. A culture of stupidity would indicate a culture of innocent victims. A child needs a more knowing parent, and an innocent victim, in today's world, needs a protecting institution. The institution MUST know, what the individual can never, and should never, if he is to remain innocent.
It really does not pay to know anything, if you think about it - it only makes you more responsible; forced to accept accountability. Best we all remain innocent and ignorant. Everything is regimented, automated, ritualized....requiring minimal thought processes...and almost all choices are limited to a few.
Why ask questions? We know bad things will happen to us, so why know more? In fact, to know that much makes us culpable. Best we do not even know how unpredictable life is. Best we call it ordered when it is chaos; pleasing when it is need.
Who cares, really? It's not like we're ever going to know everything...so why know more than we must, if being innocently ignorant is what we want?
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
reasonvemotion
Gender : Posts : 681 Join date : 2013-01-09 Location : The Female Spirit
If this is so with the male, consider how the female has also been affected in a manner equally as destructive to her sex.
Naturally, females are attention seekers, but they want to be told as well, they want men to tell them they are intelligent, beautiful and they will go to great lengths to hear it. Granted men, are on the whole, physically superior, so a woman has to think of other ways to get what she wants. This makes women experts in manipulation, perhaps this is how nature designed them. What has happened to women today, is that modern Western culture overly encourages female attention seeking and artificially strengthens the female's self esteem, this results in women thinking they are superior because they have a vagina. One only has to read Big Girls Blouse's comments on this, to see the effect it has had on some men. An effective way to control this kind of thinking, according to the Islamic culture, is the wearing of the burqa, limiting the women's addiction to attention by restricting her interaction with other men. Either way, the results are unnatural. The burqa suppresses the attention seeking tendencies, and the Western culture inflates it. Both have created an imbalance for women.
I don't like this new side of Satyr. Way too much self loathing.
I take full responsibility for it. In this case my actions placed me here.
But, if I understood correctly, this could be an instance where I can claim innocence and be a victim.
If a girl goes out with no panties and a dress up to her crotch, then I think she is an innocent victim of her youth. Like taking a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and being shot down over the Ukraine.
This is great. I'm glad you come to terms with acceptance.
You've come to acceptance of yourself and the world around you.
This is a precious milestone.
In the five stages of grief you've finally come to the state of acceptance right after the state of depression. This is all very healthy and natural.
What you need now is a doctor to prescribe you a daily sedative. Be happy and enjoy life.
When you have absolutists who claim to take full responsibility for everything that happens to them, you have to remember that people often identify with what they think they believe, rather than what they actually do, and all absolutists will have creep and leaks. Their whining may come out more like a fart, since they are trying so hard to be consistant and not verbalize it. But amazingly people are often utterly unaware of how they act and how it relates to what they think they believe. The threads whining about ILP are one of the more obvious examples, but you can hear it all over the place seeping out of pustules about the world that does not honor the loner philosophers we have here.
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37359 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
In his haste to scratch his itch, the protector of innocent victims expresses his own need for being honored, by protecting the herd of dimwits he cannot help but identify with, while desperately trying to appear better than.
Martyrdom is also narcissistic. The need to absolve self from culpability, presenting noes self as a pure, innocent, creature - a victim of happenstance.
Once more...I accept full responsibility for all my choices and any collateral effects these might have produced, but, at the same time, I analyze and know them, not by covering them up with a warm blankey but by exposing them to the light. That way I can avoid, if I want to, the consequences by adjusting my choices.
ILP has always been a place to explore human depravity. A variety of characters can be found there, because it pretends to accept all, but we all know that's not the case. Some pseudo-intellectual imbeciles, can also be found there; those who use high-brow acting to cover up that base, simplicity I thoroughly enjoy. The more pretense, expressing itself in exaggerated form, the more one is covering up.
Not only am I not complaining about ILP, I am holding it up as an example of modern decay. There's nothing to complain about. All you can do is honestly analyze, without excuses and trying to protect the weak.
Innocence is another way of saying ignorance, and although we can understand the ignorance of a child, we cannot excuse the ignorance of an adult. So, instead of pretending it isn't there, or using kind words to justify it, we explore its sources, and its expressions.
And one source of adult ignorance is stupidity. Other factors are cowardice, retardation, insecurity, memetics, genetics, and so on.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37359 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
The moment an organism is born it commences its agon. It asserts itself within the world.
This assertion produces reactions.
The brain evolved to help the organism direct its assertiveness. A plant asserts its becoming and it has no brain. Consciousness must explore self, discovering its own automatic assertiveness, and find ways to deal with all the possible consequences.
Ergo, ignorance is no defense. To not know how your presence, and the choices you've made, will impact you, does not negate the fact that even without knowing it, you've made choices and you've asserted yourself.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37359 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
The desperate attempt to preserve innocence is connected to the slavish nihilistic dogmas of Judeo-Christianity. By preserving innocence one preserves the idea of deserving salvation. One deserves to be saved from life's unpredictability, if he is not responsible for it - he is irresponsible. The need to avoid responsibility on the grounds of ignorance - the negative used in a positive sense.
To deserve is to think something is owed to you - it is a sense of entitlement. To deserve means one expects the other to give him what he is ignorant of, or he denies, or cannot attain on his own.
To not know is to be deserving of a pass. The less you know, the more ignorant you remain, the better - the culture of men-children. Dumbing Down - anti-intellectualism. To be completely ignorant, unknowing, and to not want to know, so as to not be held accountable - Democracy protecting those who are not participating.
To not care is to remain unaffected. For instance, to deny the negative in race, sex (homosexuality), is to remain free from its implications. Ignorance is bliss - it is innocence. The ignorant one feels free - liberated from what it is ignorant of.
To see is violence. To speak openly is an attack - it is aggression. This is why all who say something about the holy trinity of modernity, or anything negative about the sacred cow, are accused of proposing violence - and those who are ready to use violence are afraid. The logical progression of Modern nihilism.
-----------
Life, as an ordering in the disordering, is an imposition of order - Will. Every breathe we take, denies it to another. Every bite of food we take, denies it to another. Every job we get, denies it to another.
In superfluity we do not notice - we remain innocent - but place someone in an environment with minimal oxygen, for example, and see how fast he struggles to take in oxygen, denying it to the other.
To live is to impose one's self...to assert one's presence.
-----------
This attitude manifests in a sense of only saying positive things about the ones one is dependent upon. Nothing negative can ever be uttered, openly, because then you are bitching, complaining, because you've been denied what you deserve. To only see the positive is to ensure that what you deserve will be given to you.
The pretense is reversed. A negative comment is hypocritical; a positive one is honest.
Nothing negative can be said because all are innocent, deserving consideration, care, a pass. Instead of critiquing one must intervene to help. so, the options are: Say only positive things or do something to correct the negative.
The insinuation being that all negativity is correctable. Positive feedback...always. That which cannot be corrected must never be spoken of.
Perception of the world enters the phase of self-induced ignorance. All negativity can be corrected, and if it cannot it must be ignored. all negativity can be twisted on its head, using word games, once the noumenon is detached from the phenomenon.
Therefore, a reality of towards entropy, sensed as need, which if left unsatisfied can grow to suffering/pain, must be inverted to a reality of towards decreasing entropy. Everything is reversible once the words, associated to the abstractions (noumena), are detached from their reference to phenomenon, and become pure noetic abstractions. This is what I've called "purification". It's a form of deification....Platonic Ideals, with no reference to reality. Pure abstractions that can now be manipulated, since they have no reference point outside the mind.
This is how love becomes a Platonic, sacred spiritual form of love. it loses its lust component, it is detached from its evolutionary source and it becomes pure Idea(l) - theoretical, godly. Now it can be twisted and turned and it becomes a matter of perspective. Not perspective as an interpretation of the world, but perspective as the creator of the world.
-----------
To preserve the innocence of the other, or to preserve the purity of the idea(l), ensures that our own interests and commitments to them are also purified - cleansed of all motives except the ones considered innocent by the very idea(l)s being preserved.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
you have to remember that people often identify with what they think they believe, rather than what they actually do,
I suppose its enough to claim you are more well-read and a cornucopia of mature literature, and never having to "actually do" anything when asked to compile a list.
To the list of MENSA members, EXPERT psychologists, we'll add PROFOUND literatti too, none of whom never, and never has to "actually show" anything to the claims they make.
To the pretentiousness of saying all's well, to avoid the unpleasantness of reality, we can add the pretentiousness of confusing obscurity for higher culture. Simpletons gathering to share references which are repetitions of an ancient past, that they've "overcome", being that they are so "forward looking." Wearing their egalitarian pin, of good progressive Democrat, they can then set themselves apart from the common, and the popular, pretending they exist outside its premises, and are not affected by the common man whom they defend as an innocent victim of bad economics.
And what has this "sophistication" resulted in? An air of humble superiority that repeats the usual, but with more style, and a richer vocabulary. A learned behavior supposed to convey the feeling of being "above it all", or convey the possibility that more complexities are being included in the analysis, but can never express them. The usage of less common words to repeat the shared narrative, implying a profound understanding. Obscurity, once more, used to pretend depth.
The popular themes, reflecting the old, are preferred, because then they can use in-crowd terminologies to act, as if, they've understood the topic to a greater depth.
Even the "good", benevolent, mind, desperate to protect the herd, is really motivated by a selfish reason. Protecting the herd is protecting his own identity - one that has picked up more avant guard methods to hide itself but that still feels one of them. When one insults the common, with honesty, this aping buffoon feels insulted....recognizing himself in the descriptions - if you take away his well-crafted uniform and you stand him before his bathroom mirror naked. He knows what he is beneath the social lies.
Don't you know that a hypocrite coward would snobbishly turn his nose up to a conversation on beer, the common man's alcohol, preferring to discuss the ins and outs of current oenology, with an upturned pinky, as he sniffs the liquid like a hog, and with plenty of references to famous sommeliers? He drinks wines recommended to him, and then repeats the critiques, using the appropriate jargon, as if he can also taste a hint of Jasmin in his mouthful, a subtle fruitiness, like kiwi, on his tongue, or he can smell a bit of the French sun in the wine he paid so much money for.
But if you dig you'll discover that the hypocrite has the palate of a chimpanzee, and only uses wine as decor, or an accessory to his fake image. His opinion is mostly regurgitated from second-sources, because he keeps up-to-date with the trending views, being that he is so progressive and modern.
He likes older art forms, for show, contradicting his modern obsessions, because he has a larger pool of critiques to parrot from, whereas the more common, latest releases, leave him with only his all too average mind to draw inspiration from. And his analysis of the old is always in tune with the current, because the critiques he regurgitates attempt to integrate the old into the present narrative.
He's no different than a beer guzzling average man. The only thing progressive about him is the newer techniques he's learned to hide this fact.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
Culture of victims... everybody so eager to feel victimized at anything at all.
The Culture of Victimhood is not possible without its corollary of 'Creating Enemies'.
Those with an inner void and unable to give purpose to their lives, cannot rest till they cast and label others as "evil" and create an enemy for themselves to keep them going in life.
Where would they be if they did not invent hatred to fuel their lives with a meaningful purpose?
Where would they be if they did not become Victims and have others to blame, to save themselves from being crushed under the weight of nihilism?
Modernity is this religion of comfort and convenience. Creating Evil Enemies and the Victim Industry go together hand in hand.
"Routine Jewish hypocrisy about "free speech." Note how Jews are included in a list of hypothetical objects of satire, but when they are actually mocked, the journalist does a complete 180 on freedom of speech, because Holocaust. For safety's sake, this sort of hypocrisy and dishonesty should be assumed to be present in all Jewish statements."
Moralizing begins when hate is seen as something bad in itself. Victimhood becomes desirable when the feeling of hate is idealized, rationalized, and deemed to be something bad, something ignoble.
When the feeling of hate is not being shown; If one does not allow oneself to experience it and affirm it then victim morality grows through a process of rationalization.
More feminization creates more victimhood glorification.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
Funny when you suppose a world where the ideal has been reached and no aggression exists and you let a modern know how boring it might be. In the abstract they tend to agree that they don't mind a little spice in their life but of course in practice they aren't willing to pay the price for such an exotic flavor, instead relying on the...rape free, non-sexist/racist, 0% homophobic, Kosher dressing that always leaves them wanting more.
_________________ Once more, with knowing.
The meek shall inherit the Earth, but the Noble shall take it.
One is not an intentional victim by their own selves when they have nothing to do with creating the paradigm that they exist in that causes their victimization to begin with.
Understanding causality is crucial here.
How can one be responsible for the very environment that they randomly happened to be born and thrown into? An environment that they themselves have no control or influence over.
Doesn't make any sense at all.
People in control of the paradigm like this sort of reasoning because the individual becomes accountable for their entire lives while they themselves are left off the hook for everything where they can conveniently have no responsibility or accountability for anything at all including over others.
Make all problems individuals face internal ones where anything that has to do with exterior factors are left off the hook and ignored altogether.
The ability for self-control, while it too is based on causality, nevertheless, negates causality. Thus, self-control is a will to affirm responsibility for oneself. "Freedom is the will to be responsible for ourselves. It is to preserve the distance which separates us from other men. To grow more indifferent to hardship, to severity, to privation, and even to life itself."Friedrich Nietzsche
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37359 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
And yet, no absolutes, or the absence of, means this negation can ever be complete. What is left but endurance, toleration, learning to differentiate, distinguish, distinguish the meaningless from the meaningful within our projection of objective.
Arrogance, is, here, the culprit of self-deceit. Nothing negates causality. One only makes one's self numb to it, and so more of a victim of its immutability.
Note in the quote the word "responsibility". This is not negation, dismissal; it is acceptance. The taking in upon one's self, the yay saying.
To forget, is not to escape what is forgotten. A momentary escape. To control is not to negate what is controlled, no more than controlling femininity is negating it. Judeo-Christian asceticism. The practice of denial, fleeing, into the desert of one's own making, what can never be escaped.
In Hellenism control means something else, and so does ascetic.
Or...the harmony between past/nature and projected future/ideal.
Same concept using different words.
It's also called harmony. To be true to your own nature/past, experienced as well-being. No external authority required.
Ya, harmony was the term I'm more accustomed with. Heraclitus spoke of this, stating harmony is the result of the appropriate tension of opposing forces. There is the popular bow example - "Look at a strung bow lying on the ground or leaning against a wall. No movement is visible. To the eyes it appears a static object, completely at rest. But in fact a continuous tug-of-war is going on within it, as will become evident if the string is now strong enough, or is allowed to perish. The bow will immediately take advantage, snap it and leap to straighten itself, thus showing that each half been putting forth effort all the time. The harmonia was a dynamic one of vigorous and contrary motions neutralized by equilibrium and so unapparent"---W.K.C Guthrie
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37359 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
There can be degrees of victimhood/lack of self care. Most people are not so well prepared, Not everyone has the luxury. People are victims of shitty luck of birth.
I combined the crux of your argument from all your comments into this quote.
One of the reasons why someone doesn't have the luxury, is unprepared, and lacking self-care (these are symptoms, not the cause) is because they have no lofty goal in life. They have no aspirations. They don't want to become more than they're. They just want to self-indulge - the grazing cow's life, which puts or keeps them in the same vulnerable position. One who is without aim, without a care in the world, will stagnate/atrophy. Anything to avoid pain/suffering. A slave to fear and lust. Consequently, no skills are developed. The fact that one participates in this world is already a sufficient reason to hold him/her responsible for every negative experience. How much more, then, is one held accountable for putting or keeping themselves in such vulnerable positions? In contrast, someone who does have a lofty goal, survival becomes a byproduct, a secondary motivator. Instead, the primary motivator becomes personal development - to become more than you're, and that doesn't mean sexual conquest either. A lofty goal requires a lot of resistance (pain/suffering) to overcome. You cannot have an aesthetically pleasing body without sculpting it through vigorous exercise and controlling eating habits.
The third kind, those who are primarily motivated by survival, while they too live the grazing cow's life, they, at least, have enough sense to try to take care of themselves so that they do have the luxury of adapting and are prepared.
Kovacs wrote:
Other people are creating those situations also.
I never said offenders are not responsible. I said that one is not a victim if someone else rapes him/her. The aggressor does not absolve responsibility. See reply above.
Quote :
Exposure to chemicals is often NOT the result of one's own choices. Exposure to chemicals, however, can only partially be controlled.
Sure it is. Using all sorts of household chemicals and chemical toiletries is a choice, so is eating food sprayed with chemicals, eating and drinking unnatural-non-organic food/drinks that contains harmful ingredients, drinking unfiltered water, or drinking from plastic bottles, not living in a cleaner climate, living in a high densely populated area, etc.
Kovacs wrote:
And for kids, their diets are often not their choices.
Granted, kids under the age of reason are genuine victims. After that, they're responsible.
Last edited by lilynate on Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:26 pm; edited 10 times in total
Impulso Oscuro
Gender : Posts : 799 Join date : 2013-12-10 Age : 33 Location : Praxis
