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 Objective <> Subjective

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySat May 29, 2021 8:51 am

The ascent toward objective lucidity is a descent toward subjective madness.
Approaching Apollo exposes you to the intoxicating effects of Dionysus.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyTue Jun 01, 2021 11:54 am

The subject can only live within its own interpretations of an objective reality, but the objective reality remains unaffected by them, unless the subject wilfully converts said interpretations into actions, in which case both subject and object is affected in proportion to the subject's power.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyTue Jun 01, 2021 11:56 am

Subject, as an extension or projection of its power, may multiply its effect on the objective world by transmitting - via coercion, seduction and/or bribery - his interpretations to other subjects who become its proxies.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyTue Jun 01, 2021 12:03 pm

The degree to which a subjective interpretations of objective reality contradicts or is contradicted by it - is in harmony/disharmony, in accord/discord - determines the degree of discrepancy of the effect on the objective interpreted world and the subjective interpreting organism, i.e., error in judgment - interpretation, evaluation - always affecting subject more than object.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyTue Jun 01, 2021 12:09 pm

The dynamic nature of objective reality means that subject, even through its erroneous apprehensions, evaluations and subsequent interpretations of the objective world, affects it if and only if it dares to risk applying its subjective interpretations in real time.
The consequences can only be unpredictable - their unpredictability the consequence of discrepancy.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySat Jun 19, 2021 6:16 pm

Subjectivism - fanatical subjectivism - has already presumed that all is equally valid since it has presumed that there is no objective way to evaluate outside subjective presumptions.
It, unwittingly, rejects the scientific method - its harsh logic where no emotional has a place - and replaces it with emotional criteria, which are entirely subjective.
It also rejects the very foundation of philosophy, by purporting to be philosophical, advocating - again unwittingly - that a persona philosophy can only be applied to personal circumstances without any generalizations.

Undermining western culture and civilization. 
It is anti-reason and anti-empirical. It is nihilistic, worshipping the nil - again unwittingly.
I explore this psot-Abrahamic traumatic worshipping of the nil here:
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I call these types 'recovering Abrahamics" that never fully recover because they've gradually replaced Abrahamic nihilistic tropes with secular, Marxist and modern/postmodern tropes, without changing the underlying presumptions.
In effect they haven't changed their minds they've only upgraded the lingo associated with the same concepts, and repackaged them to seem new and improved - progressive. 

Worship of nil follows the worship of the one, and compounds one error in judgment and understanding with another, by remaining within the same erroneous misunderstandings.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyThu Jul 01, 2021 8:31 am



*One is what one does, not what one believes but what one chooses - connecting this to free-will- or how one acts, i.e., behaves, interacts - convecting this to metaphysics.
An individual organism's actions express its identity.
The subjective in relation to another subjectivity - intentional agency, organism, life, i.e., mind/body - or in relation to an objective world.

*Identity is rooted in memory - DNA & experiential.
Soul/Spirit refer to this presence and continuance of memory connecting the individual to what preceded its birth and will continue after its death.
Genes/Memes refer to the evolution an d cultivation of memories, viz., genetic (DNA) - nature - and memetic (experiential) - nurture.

*Need/Desire exposes identity, beyond words attempting to justify or conceal it - personae/character.
There is no "I" that wills life or power, or "thinks therefore is"....rather "I" is the acting, i.e., thinking, doing. The acting is the individual.
Existence = dynamic interactivity - Flux.
All is interactive - what exists is what interacts. There is no static "I" which just happens to act in this or that way.
The act is the existent.
Ergo, the objective is what reveals the subjective. The motive identifies the agency, the will.
It is the goal which imbues the act with value and purpose - meaning.
Meaning simply refers to a subjective appreciation/interpretation of a triangulation - self, other and distance/movement/motive/effort.

*Need is the experience of existing.
Desire is the consequence of successfully gratifying needs, producing excess which must be expunged, sublimated, directed towards an objective.
Art is a by-product of excess.
Libidinal energies, or energies that exceed the requirements of self-miantenance, growth, and fight/flight, evolve into procreative and creative expressions of individuality.

*Paradox is the consequence of mind/body dissonance - the ideal and the real - noumenon/phenomenon - failing to perfectly coincide.

*The "desire to be desired" is also the source of what evolves into nihilism.
A defensive reaction to emerging self-awarness - or the development of objective evaluations of one-self in relation to an-other.
We see the paroxysm of this defensiveness in the current "identity crisis".

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySun Jul 04, 2021 7:34 pm

All life is immersed in its own subjective interpretations of an objective world; enclosed within its consciousness.
If this subjectivity remain in the mind then it remains invalidated and theoretically perfect.
It is only when the subject dares to apply its subjective interpretations of the world within the world that its subjectivity is tested and either exposed as lacking or as sufficiently accurate.
It is the consequence of an applied subjectivity which exposes its quality in relation to a world that remain indifferent to all subjective interpretations of it.

Here, triangulation becomes pragmatic.
By converting its interpretations of reality into actions - interactions - the subject exposes itself to the consequences.
Subject, act, objective.
Through the act the subject tests its subjective interpretations of itself - self-knowledge - of the objective, and of the effort, distance, it needs to traverse to attain it.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyFri Jul 09, 2021 1:42 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2021 12:38 pm

The subjective interpretation of the objective world is evaluated in relation to its objective and to its evolved survival and reproductive strategy - how a species evolved to cope with time, i.e., change, interactivity, flux.
If it suffices it survives. If it doesn't, and is not protected - sheltered - by an external mediating agency, then it perishes.
Survival of the fittest accommodates niche survival and reproductive strategies. An organism evolves the ability to perceive only what it requires to survive and to reproduce.

Nature is frugal. It does not evolve, nor does it maintain, what is superfluous.
Higher intelligence may be unfit...perceiving far too much; being hampered by too many variables, i.e., too many probabilities.
Dumbind-Down may be a natural adjustment.
Genius can be considered a by-product of sheltering....along with idiocy.
A double edges sword.
Genius and madness are closely related. A fine line separating the two.

It's not accidental that Plato envisioned his ideal Republic as one governed by philosopher Kings who had no property nor progeny. Those who did not want power, knowing and fully understanding the responsibility.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2021 1:15 pm

There is a very large cost for Sheltering.

This is the core of civilization, socialization, and domestication. It is an urge of the Feminine/Female nature. Women/Females, of any specie, are the ones who demand higher and higher probabilities of Security over time. Males exchange this Security for Sexual access. This is also why females are sexually attracted to the more dominant 'Alpha' males, because these males offer the highest levels of Security.

Part of this Security is male-hierarchy, by which males at the top dictate, control, over-power, and suppress all the males below.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 pm

Human economies around the world are based on "buying-in", by which Consumers buy back into their own life and society. Security is bought and paid for. The cost of some is much higher and lower than others. Many individuals are a very large 'drag' on society and civilization.

This is something the Postmodern Eugenicists are moving against right now, attempting to eliminate "humanely", of course. "Genetic Pollution".

The individuals of societies and the world who have much larger Costs than Benefit, are a liability over time, and eventually as this type over-populates, creates a problem like capsizing an overloaded boat. People must be thrown overboard before the ship sinks.


This is an analogy for the American situation: Americanism.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyThu Jul 15, 2021 1:32 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyMon Jul 19, 2021 9:27 am



Use is what confers value on the object/objective for the subject/subjective.
If the object/objective is never realized, never attained, the value-judgement remains theoretical, esoteric, ideological, forever in the mind, never put in practice, never validated/falsified in the external.
This is where the nil gains its [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], through its utility to the mind as an excuse, a abstraction to conceal rather than reveal.
All is made meaningless so as to make them practically and pragmatically useless - externally - allowing them to remain useful - internally - as a way of rejecting, escaping, scape-goating, self-deceiving....etc. - by reducing objective utility to nil it allows for subjective utility to take over and dominate - all becomes subjectively true, meaningful, valuable, when all objective meaning, value is nullified - the object/objective acquires the divine perfection of a Platonic ideal.
All words must be rendered subjective through the rendering of all object/objectives meaningless and valueless.
Within postmodern crypto-marxism this reduction of value is the achievement of parity. There's nothing to exploit if all value is subjective. A contradiction of Marxist exchange values. The exchange becomes a metaphysical exchange of subjective ideals, with no shared objective standard other than the welfare of the collective, which is also abstract and meaningless.
With no objective world to restrict subjective definitions, evaluations, all becomes a unit of monetary exchange with no tangible value - all language becomes monetized; code of human socioeconomic exchange.
The meaninglessness of words follows the process of fiat currency - enforced by the state.
All words - representing concepts - must be detached from their reference, their utility - their gold standard - and made entirely abstract - ideological - subjective.
See how sex has been detached form its genetic, reproductive utility, and made into another abstraction - a subjective code to be exchanged.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyTue Jul 20, 2021 6:25 pm

The subjective is the grounding of a world view in morality, i.e., a reaction to what is.
Recovering Abrahamics are trapped in Judeo-Christian morality.

Objectivity attempts to transcend this moral grounding and pass judgement on what is - returning to moral indignation - once what is has been recognized and affirmed.
A process of detachment and distancing, using Hellenic asceticism, which makes self-denial a means rather than an end, as is the case with nihilism.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2021 4:13 pm



Consciousness undergoes a constant ordering process which tends towards objective creation in the form of ideas. Creation in this understanding, is the imposing force of existence, putting consciousness into its own survival state where it must bring order to the chaos of sensation, by shaping them into representations. The intellectual structuring of Kant's "manifold of experience" can be thought of as the "creative apparatus" of consciousness. One must create order, or submit to the entropy of nihilism. Most choose the latter.  This is what constitutes the psychologies of "creation" and "destruction". Those who choose to will, and those who place it in the hands of others or parasitically take it from others.



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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySun Aug 22, 2021 2:17 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySun Aug 29, 2021 6:36 am

For me mathematics is based on abstraction, which is a cutting away of an object, in the real world.
Consciousness perceives, for example, a stone by eliminating the background and by encompassing the object with a spatial/temporal box.
This happens automatically. Brains do this interpretation just as they translate a particular frequency/vibration as blue.
There is no blue in the world but blue refers to that particular frequency - pattern of vibration.

I think mathematics requires a step in evolution - self-consciuosness, or perceiving yourself perceiving objects in the world.
Objects would be unities of patterns/energies.
By surveying the different abstractions of objects from a third-person perspective the mind can perceive similarities and differences organizing them into categories or types of objects.
Similar objects had to be organized using a language that would maintain their distinction. for example one, tree, another tree, and another tree...so one tree, two trees, three trees organizes the objects into a category (set) - based on their similarities - but maintains their distinction - based on their differences.

From this there's a cognitive leap where the object being abstracted is separated from the instance of abstraction, so now the tree is taken away leaving 1,2,3,..
Pure idea. Purified abstraction.

What is a priori is the method the brain uses to translate/interpret sensual data into manageable neural patterns that can be transmitted to the brain where they are translated/interpreted, once again, into image or sound, or texture.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySun Aug 29, 2021 8:52 am

Eliminating the source of divergence in the real world converts abstraction to a uniformity that can be included in any category.

1 tree, 2 trees, 3, trees; 'tree' representing the similarities, and 1, 2, 3, the differences that distinguish one from the other.
1 horse, 2 horses, 3, horses can now be integrated into a single category with trees by eliminating the source of their divergence - what makes trees not the same as horses.
Horses and trees become things or ideas - abstractions - that can belong to a single set.
They are no longer in the world but in the mind, reduces to an idea.

Words can also be detaches and abstracted.
See Bible.
"God" becomes word - logos. A word with no reference to anything in the world.
"Love" is another word that can be abstracted to exist in the mind as an idea.
The charlatan did the same with the term "value".
The words become ontological in the mind lacking ontology outside the mind.
By detaching them from reality they are converted to a form that is no longer restricted by external order. They are now connected to esoteric sources, emotions, sensations, abstractions, feelings....they are mystified.
The individual no longer requires external validation he feels the "truth" of his linguistic convictions.
All is subjectified.
He can then share and transmit his internal convictions to other minds that share its ability to abstract and its need to detach abstractions from sensual input.
Notice that these minds always limit their convictions to humans, and only humans of a particular psychology. Their convictions never have an effect on animals, for example; their ideologies never apply to anything other than to humans - 'all is a social construct' means 'all is a human fabrication applicable only to humans'.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySun Aug 29, 2021 10:06 am

Satyr wrote:

I think mathematics requires a step in evolution - self-consciuosness, or perceiving yourself perceiving objects in the world.
Objects would be unities of patterns/energies.
By surveying the different abstractions of objects from a third-person perspective the mind can perceive similarities and differences organizing them into categories or types of objects.
Similar objects had to be organized using a language that would maintain their distinction. for example one, tree, another tree, and another tree...so one tree, two trees, three trees organizes the objects into a category (set) - based on their similarities - but maintains their distinction - based on their differences.

From this there's a cognitive leap where the object being abstracted is separated from the instance of abstraction, so now the tree is taken away leaving 1,2,3,..
Pure idea. Purified abstraction.

What is a priori is the method the brain uses to translate/interpret sensual data into manageable neural patterns that can be transmitted to the brain where they are translated/interpreted, once again, into image or sound, or texture.    

It helps to understand the nature of creativity, artistry, which are the abstracting means that take epistemological derivatives beyond their immediate experience, forming them into aggregate representations, or an understanding, the 'unities' of patterns as you say. Creativity is the self-determining nuance. The ability to will, to create, to synthesize objective sensations into simplified forms, which is what simplification is in mathematics, is the creative predisposition, and i think this is why many mathematicians speak to math being about 'harmony' with how nature is; the idea of "harmony" is the pure idea. For me to create means to become self.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptySun Aug 29, 2021 10:20 am

This "creativity" is about rearranging abstraction at will, once the sensual has been converted to a form the mind can manipulate.
"Harmony" my refer to an internal arrangement, represented mathematically.
Abstractions are like notes. Their sequence creates melodies or noise.

For me to create is to externalize self - or an idealized self, which can be used as an inspiring representation of an objective.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyMon Aug 30, 2021 7:36 am

When confronted with two, or more, contradictory perspectives how does one go about determining which one is closest to the truth?

Alternate:
When two or more subjective interpretations of an event must be evaluated to determine which one is closest to how the event unfolded, how does one go about determining this?

The reliability of the source is a first step.
A reliability determined by previous performances.
Then one must use a indifferent common standard...like nature.
Nature being that which existed before man emerged and will probably continue to exist after he is gone.; nature as that which is outside all human cultures, societies, ideologies, philosophies, and in fact is the focus of all these disciplines.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 03, 2021 11:05 am

Imagination = combining noumena, e.g., concepts, ideas, abstraction, images, sensations, emotions, in novel ways.
Creativity. Innovation.
Fantasy = when imagination increasingly detaches from reality and begins to recombine its own constructs in alternate combinations.

The final product of imagination refers to observable phenomena - that which is present, i.e., real, empirical.
The final product of fantasy gradually drifts away from reality so that the parts of tis synthesized combinations can no longer be found in the world but in mental constructs - either in its own mind or another's via text and verbal abstractions.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyFri Sep 03, 2021 11:15 am

Objectivity cannot be attained.
Like omnipotence it is an idealized standard to evaluate an approach; gauge progress.
Objectivity = degree of subjectivity.
Omnipotence = degree of strength, power.
Omniscience = degree of knowledge/understanding.

What is the true objective of objectivity?
Clarity. Honesty.
Understanding not corrupted by ego, emotions - primarily anxiety/fear.
What is is method?
Perceiving oneself and the other from an imagined third-person perspective - detached, indifferent.
This ability emerges as self-cosnciuosness develops, exposing the individual to a new source of anxiety/fear - particularly a social organism dependent on others of its kind to survive and reproduce.

Reactivity?
Primary, popular: Nihilism develops as a linguistically founded defensive reaction attempting to protect the ego from these insights.
Secondary, rare: overcoming one's dependence on others for one's self-esteem, i.e., self-respect, self-evaluations.
An individual knows and understands how he is perceived and evaluated by others but becomes increasingly indifferent to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2021 12:54 pm

When every fact becomes a moral question the mind is signaling its need to evaluate facts using emotional criteria.
It needs to reduce reality to a question of love and hate; inclusion and exclusion.
It begs the other not to use his mind but his heart.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2021 1:56 pm

The nihilisitc side of moral relativism. Emotional appeal used as a "leveling" influence. To account for the validity of all justifications or arguments. Everyone is susceptible to pain, to desire, to personal wants and needs, therefore, what one feels is right, is right, because there is no standard of truth to determine anything absolutely or to equally satisfy all. Everything must be assessed by the whims of feelings, by chance and happenstance. Putting forth effort to reason and understand requires actual determinations of what is accurate, what is superior/inferior, it determines quality.

So the freak is obsessed with context and "conflicting goods". Because he can use them to divert from any objective truth or any approximate reasoning or duty of explication, by falling back on relativism to get himself out of any ideological jam. He's really just an imbecilic faggot who desperately wants social validation. Not much else to him.


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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2021 2:19 pm

Yes..."context" is code for a situational dramatic scenario, for the womens to feel what is true and what is false.
Though my own positions apply to all situations, relative to the participants objectives, nevertheless the womens need names, and scenarios, e.g., Jill went to a bar where she fell in lust/love with Larry, and gave herself to his romantic promises. Victim of her innocence, I guess.
Next morning Jill wakes up regretting the previous night's intoxicated, emotional, impulsive decisions, as she has a dozen times before....only this time she is pregnant. A memento of her innocent gullibility, or her impulsive sluttiness.
So, what ought Jill to do if she hopes to remain a slut, living a life of careless abandon?

Some say it is immoral to have an abortion, others say it is her right to remain as much of a whore as she wants.
Dilemma.
The freak thinks this is philosophy.

Told the imbecile...if Jill wants to remain a whore, who gets knocked up when the birth control fails, then an abortion is pragmatic - morality ain't got anything to do with it. But these continuous abortions entail a risk, and a cost, 'cause that's nature.
Unfair and indifferent.
Nature don't care about human contraceptives and interventional medicine, it exacts a price - no morality required.
The freak wants a born again christian to preach against the immorality of abortions, 'cause that is what he was, and is...a simpleton who needs simpletons to overcome - "debate " - as evidence of his newfound wisdom/maturity.
When he can't find any he invents them, in his mind.
All are fanatical, fascistic Randian Objectivists - a.k.a., heartless capitalists, who refuse to pay for Jill's abortinos....one every year, if not more - or pay for her contraceptives, so that the injustices of nature, making her a female, can be overcome by Jill, and she can be more like Jack.
That's fair, no?
Social engineering.

He dreams of changing the world...by reducing it all to a compromise.
How?
There is no certainty, no omnipotence - death of god - no omniscience, so all are sinful, feeble, humans - equally ignorant, therefore the "logical thing to do" is to come to a mutually beneficial compromise.
Code for:
let's share the negative consequence of human ignorance and idiocy.
Postmodern crypto-Marxist emoting.
What is the pragmatic result - the ideal result? A genius who lives a life of consideration and reason must share the consequences of the imbeciles of the world to create an imaginary state of equality of outcomes.
The nice, rational, girl has to pay for the slut's abortions so that the slut isn't forced to change her ways.

He conceals it all in morality. As if it is moral to pay for an idiot's mistakes, allowing him to remain as idiotic as his genetic inheritance allows...and the only antithesis is a moral question....abortion is immoral if it is not moral.
See?
He wants to remain within the Marxist/Abrahamic code of ethics.
What made him a Christian then made him a Marxist, and now made him a postmodern.
He thinks he's maturing.
"My brother's keeper," and all that.
Whatever spoils it is an "objectivist".
His enemy is an imagined heartless, selfish, capitalist, who refuses to foot the bill for Jill's sluttish lifestyle...a personification of Satan on earth.
He's fighting "evil" on the side of "good," so that no man, or woman, will ever have to suffer the injustices of their stupidity.
But he has no brain for it so he has adopted these feminine mind-games.

Its emotional blackmail.
Even distribution of responsibility between the haves - responsible ones - and the have not - irresponsible ones.
But its all detemrined...so he's on the side of a universal inevitability - god - who wills it to be so - and he but a mindless minion of divine grace, waiting for death to rise up to the heavens.
We are but those chosen, by god, to play the part of the evil ones.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2021 2:43 pm

The lingo is straight out of Biblical allegories and Marxist red books...
Utopianism concealed in pretence...the shit about being trapped in a dilemma.
It's bait....to proselytize.
The reward is a future world with no pain, no conflicts, no hunger, no suffering - equal distribution of resources and responsibility.
Bee hive uniformity.

There is no free-will, so the retard is preaching to whom and for what reason?
Nobody can choose or not choose, according to the retard's own retarded "logic"....therefore, who is he trying to convince when nobody can break free from universal determinism?
Who is the "enemy"?
Fate?
God?
The Universe?

Ha!!!
What a freak.
A good pet, though.



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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2021 2:44 pm

For him, anyone who dares to express any form of intellectual outlook or objective reasoning is a tyrannical pedant who is trying to force others to thier will and "convert" them to thier way of thinking. Reason itself is an enemy for him. This tells me how much he despises himself, and how deep his inferiority is. He has to level everything down to absurdity. Which is why he likes the nihilism of Samuel Beckett. Everything is only an "injustice" against our needs and desires, so nature and truth are evils. And these fags will of course proclaim thier devotion to the cruelty of nature. They like to do that to conceal thier hatred for it while masquerading as rational minds. He is like Ecmandu. He wants equal pleasure for all, and if not than all must be rejected or cleansed of its evil.


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