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 Objective <> Subjective

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyThu Feb 23, 2023 8:31 am

Do subjective emoters tell you how they are feeling, or how you are making them feel?
Yes.

So, they tell you that their critique of you is founded on fear, only they do it indirectly, as an accusation - a critique of your critique - afraid of exposing themselves, or afraid of you exposing their subjective anxieties.
Subjective emoters cannot discuss any subject without it becoming personal.....the personal anxiety a subject produces in them they must unload as an attack; their private motives become your hypothetical motives......ironically exposing them before you expose them.

Liars always accuse another of lying if they fear that they will be exposed.
A thief accuses another of thievery....redirection.


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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyFri Feb 24, 2023 5:23 am

This is why Abrahamism is so effective at casting its immensely large 'net' upon populations. It is a type of mental trap, for the Subjective mind. The Subjective mind is enticed and entranced at this prospect and possibility of an "Objective" (Self-conscious) mind. It is enamored at the abilities of IQ two or three standard deviations above itself—that the high-IQ can know more of the low-IQ than the low-IQ knows of itself. It is thoroughly captivated, and then controlled. "A Fool is easily parted from his money", and from his self-control and autonomy, easily manipulated.

All it takes, then, is a pact among the higher IQs, a "conspiracy theory", to cooperate slightly so that they can garner the profit of Nations. In the Medieval Era, the Catholic Church largely supplied this monopoly, by forcibly curtailing information, libraries, and literacy. But after industrialization and globalization really took off, now the World Economic Forum and other international corporations have seized-control of information flows and Media.

All those who did not / would not / cannot adapt... will perish, at the whims of those above, perceiving them as "conspiracy theories". It's "magical"—meanwhile they readily admit absence of Free-Will when you question them. As-if they were proud of the fact.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySun Feb 26, 2023 5:54 pm

Where an objective thinker has the experienced world as his standard, the subjective emoter can only have other subjective emoters as his standard. For him feedback validates or invalidates. He is a prisoner of popular appeal.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyMon Feb 27, 2023 6:13 pm

Success & failure are usually determined by a simple error in judgement.
An overestimation of oneself, or an underestimation of the objective.

Overestimating the objective results in disappointment and sometimes in disillusionment; underestimating oneself often leads to stagnation and sometimes to an unexpected outcome.
Disappointment and disillusionment conceals itself in upgrading hyperbole; stagnation and surprise conceals itself in downgrading excuses.

******
The majority always adopts the ambitions of their chosen collective, highly evaluating collective objectives and themselves in relation to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyWed Mar 01, 2023 2:04 pm

Objectivity is not interested in what is self-serving, or emotional, or contrary to survival.
The subjective mind is trapped in emotion - primarily fear, the mother of them all - in self-interests, in ego, and must reduce it all to the subjective, hoping to cope with what remain indifferent to human needs, desires and suffering.
This it finds incomprehensible, since, for it, all ought to be reduced to human needs, desires, and suffering, and so it reduces it down to what it can relate with.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyWed Mar 01, 2023 2:29 pm

Existence is indifferent to human needs, desires and suffering.
Objectivity necessitates such indifference.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyTue Mar 07, 2023 6:05 pm

Objectivity - like omnipotence, is an unattainable absolute....
Yet, we move towards more power, as we move towards more objectivity.

Subjectivity is animalistic.
It is the original form of awareness - outwardly focused.
Objectivity necessitates a third-person perspective, placing oneself outside the perception - eliminating all hatreds, fears, anxieties - as much as possible. This far a typical dimwit can follow....where it cannot is that this also means one has to eliminate, as much as possible, love, sympathy, ego....self-interests...and the interests of your loved ones.
Love is as corruptive and blinding as hate.

The movement of subjectivity towards increasing objectivity is the movement from first-person towards third-person...
so far a fourth-person perspective is impossible for a being evolved to perceive only three-diemsions (space) and movement within them (time)....
Anything above these 3+1 dimensions is incomprehensible to us.
Without getting too deeply into it, dimensional fragmentation/multiplication is implied by expansion of space/time; movement towards chaos is a movement towards infinite space/time, ro a state of infinite simultaneous possibilities - reduction of probabilities, i.e., patterns.

But I digress
All emotion is an automated reaction facilitating survival by increasing reaction speeds, or by negating, numbing pre-existing reactions to facilitate more sophisticated survival strategies.
Anxiety begins by increasing alertness, caution; fear prepared an organism to release its stored energies for fight/flight...love evolves later to sublimate and redirect these same energies towards procreation...and then creativity, art...
As a numbing intoxicant, relieving anxiety/fear, it is experienced as a pleasant state.
Our species has adopted a cooperative survival and reproductive strategy so love is central to tolerance and cooperation and shared identifications.
The process moved from blood relations to abstractions.

Immortality via other.
The mind experiences this immersion in a collective identity as an expansion - as relief form personal responsibility, from the necessity of caution and care...a return to the infantile state when parent took care and child felt free to carelessly explore.
This is what man craves...from Abrahamic to Communist....a parental figure, an institution, a god, a universal order to take care of things as it explores without a care.
Domestication.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyFri Mar 10, 2023 12:15 pm

Movement, approach - progress - from subjectivity towards objectivity is the movement - evolution - from first-person, to second-person and then third-person perspective.
This progressive sophistication is part of evolution. Next step would be to a fourth-person perspective, necessitating the evolution from a four-diemsional perception to five-dimensional perception...
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Pentaract....
Such shapes are difficult to represent to a brain evolved to interpret a priori four-diemsitonal space/time.
The four-dimensional representation si always paradoxical, because the brain's binary can only reduce four-diemsional space/time to a level it can process and store as memory.
DNA's four code system (body, physical) develops a binary representational codes, multiplying adaptive speed by sacrificing range of perception.
Abstractions are efficient but effective simplifications/generalizations of existence.
The points and lines of a geometric shape being part of the mind's binary a priori method of interpreting multidimensional fluctuating, dynamic space/time.

The evolution from first-person to second-person and then third-person perspective requires a similar sacrifice.
Alienation form oneself is part of the third-person perspective - and this si why here is where I place nihilism's beginning - its defensive refusal to raffirm the body when it has been aleinated form it, as pure mind
Here is also where the one-god of Abraham resides...as mind alienated from the physical, tangible - pure mind.
We see here how this can develop into schizoid psychology and Transsexuality - alienation from one's own body, one's own nature/biology - within sheltering systems this develops into a narcissistic self-agradizement, where the individual believes that, like a creator god, he can create himself, in antithesis to what he is. sheltering is necessary because such a psychosis would not survive for long in the wild, or in less nihilistic systems. Americanism being the pinnacle of techno-nihilism....
God is dead; man or mankind is now god.
This can remain a collective project, psychosis, or an individual psychosis. Collectives can suffer from the same disorders, same diseases, individuals suffer.

An individual experiences this third-person perspective as an alien agency observing itself, from the vantage point outside space/time, or from some mysterious beyond - a nil space with no time, no change, therefore no need/suffering.
This is self-consciousness in its highest development as increasingly objective.
From this third-person perspective an individual can perceive itself, relative to other, as if he were perceiving two strangers.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 6:52 am

Satyr wrote:
Objectivity - like omnipotence, is an unattainable absolute....
Yet, we move towards more power, as we move towards more objectivity.

Subjectivity is animalistic.
It is the original form of awareness - outwardly focused.
Objectivity necessitates a third-person perspective, placing oneself outside the perception - eliminating all hatreds, fears, anxieties - as much as possible. This far a typical dimwit can follow....where it cannot is that this also means one has to eliminate, as much as possible, love, sympathy, ego....self-interests...and the interests of your loved ones.
Love is as corruptive and blinding as hate.

The movement of subjectivity towards increasing objectivity is the movement from first-person towards third-person...
so far a fourth-person perspective is impossible for a being evolved to perceive only three-diemsions (space) and movement within them (time)....
Anything above these 3+1 dimensions is incomprehensible to us.
Without getting too deeply into it, dimensional fragmentation/multiplication is implied by expansion of space/time; movement towards chaos is a movement towards infinite space/time, ro a state of infinite simultaneous possibilities - reduction of probabilities, i.e., patterns.

But I digress
All emotion is an automated reaction facilitating survival by increasing reaction speeds, or by negating, numbing pre-existing reactions to facilitate more sophisticated survival strategies.
Anxiety begins by increasing alertness, caution; fear prepared an organism to release its stored energies for fight/flight...love evolves later to sublimate and redirect these same energies towards procreation...and then creativity, art...
As a numbing intoxicant, relieving anxiety/fear, it is experienced as a pleasant state.
Our species has adopted a cooperative survival and reproductive strategy so love is central to tolerance and cooperation and shared identifications.
The process moved from blood relations to abstractions.

Immortality via other.
The mind experiences this immersion in a collective identity as an expansion - as relief form personal responsibility, from the necessity of caution and care...a return to the infantile state when parent took care and child felt free to carelessly explore.
This is what man craves...from Abrahamic to Communist....a parental figure, an institution, a god, a universal order to take care of things as it explores without a care.
Domestication.
The movement from first-person to third-person, subjectivity towards increasing objectivity....is a movement from primal to increasingly sophisticated methods of understanding other - from consciousnesses, to self-consciousnesses - projecting what is known of self, usually incomplete and self-serving - into another, and finally the gradual elimination of what is self-serving increasing self-knowledge.

Sympathy/Antipathy towards pure Empathy.

Lower organisms can only perceive otherness - and have no knowledge of self - the evolution of self-consciousnesses makes it possible for an organism to perceive self from the position of another, through the projection of what is known of oneself into the place of a stranger, an-other.
The final step is the projection of oneself into a position outside both oneself and another - a god perspective - neither sympathetic nor antipathetic to either, achieving objectivity, clarity, unaffected by emotions, nor by self-interests like survival, nor by ego.

Empathy - as described - is the opposite of narcissism.

************
As was noted, this position can be pleasing, since it can be used to escape, or relieve anxiety.
Individuals are tempted to remain Stoically detached, essentially differentiating mind from their own physical presence, i.e., appearance - associating self with mind and disassociating it from body.
When the detachment is pathological - schizophrenia - it is permanent; when it is self-induced it can become pathological, leading to such mind/body dissonance as Transsexuality, or remaining on the level of nihilistic detachment - partial ro complete - of words/symbols from actions, reality.
Here the difference between Abrahamic - nihilistic - and Hellenic asceticism comes into play.
Is the ascetic ideal a means or an end?
The same answer applies to this process of disassociation from second to third-person perspective.
Is the disassociation of mind form the body, form the tangible, experienced world, the physical, a means or an end?

This is why I place nihilism here...as an end.

*********
Need = lack of energies.
Desire = excess of energies, due to the success of the consistent satisfaction of needs.

What need is to the physical tangible body ennui is to the intangible mind.

Schopenhauer describes the human condition, and the living condition, as a constant shift from suffering to boredom.
When the mind is partially liberated from tis function as an organ facilitating the satisfaction of need - experienced as suffering when left un-satiated for a period of time, determined by an individuals constitution - then it experiences boredom - where according to some spiritual traditions is where the devil resides.
The brain's excess energies must be expunged even if this necessitates risks and the possibility of greater costs.
In some individuals these excess libidinal energies can be redirected from procreative towards creative objectives: art - but for the majority with no artistic inclinations other, sometimes self-detructive, ends are sought.
Fetishism is one such by-product of excess libidinal energies seeking expunging in increasingly unconventional objectives, due to ennui.
Boredom - due to sheltering - coupled with genetic mutations - also a by-product of sheltering - can become freakish.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:37 am

The lower intellect observes the higher intellect with envy, as a frail weakling observes a bodybuilder with envy.  Or an ugly woman envies a beautiful woman.  In all of these cases, the inferior (organism) envies its superior.  It does this without self-consciousness.  Most, or almost all of these, do not have the cognitive ability to be aware of its envy, its root, its compulsion, its orientation (to its objective).

The inferior believes "if I had that, then all my problems would be solved and life would be good".  It does not consider the costs, the sacrifices, or upkeep of the envious-superior traits.  What is required for greater intellect / strength / beauty / genetics?  What are the costs?  What are the upkeeps?  As with weight training and exercise ...can you slack off?  Can you be lazy and gluttonous during the adolescent phase of life, when your body is developing its otherwise permanent characteristics?  Can you obtain Superior qualities, without discipline?  Is it luck?  The last option is the prime choice of the inferior: "yes, it must be LUCK that he is superior and I am inferior—they are BORN with it!"

Just as the inferior does not commit to the discipline required to increase traits, so too does it seek the quickest and most immediate coping-mechanism, representing its (Subjective) psychology.

It is not aware of itself, of its mind, of its rationalization, of the patterns it represents in Nature.  This is why it is called 'inferior'.


Self-consciousness is a characteristic of intelligence, humility, and courage.  As with weight-training, if it is not 'exercised', then it cannot be gained, or if gained slightly, can be easily lost.  This is why the mid/dimwits deify Self-Consciousness as "Objectivity-Personaified" (God).  It is seen as a Divine characteristic, a quality of the Priestly class.  So they mass gather around such 'Saintly' types of humanity, for guidance, for leadership, wanting to imitate what their (lesser) minds cannot understand.  They want God, and the Priest must give it to them (Abrahamism).  In these developments, mass religion, especially Abrahamism are the unfortunate byproducts and side-effects of humanity's civilizational success.

Specialization—since inferior minds cannot hope to achieve a fraction of superior minds, the intellectual 'work' load gets dumped onto the top 1%, and of those, the top 1%, just as economic models represent societies and the global economy as a whole.  This is a point that Jordan Peterson has capitalized on over the last couple decades, "the top 1% of the top 1%, do 51% of the work".  These are represented in sports by the sport phenomes, those who amaze and captivate, and make all the other Professionals, who are themselves skilled, look like children by comparison.  Humanity seeks this out as the pinnacle of its achievements in all areas of society.

The difference of Subject/Object, is how the masses (fail to) understand SubjectGod, or SubjectMonarch.  This is what "Subjectivity" means, that, the inferior mind (animalistic) is Subject to the "Human" mind which reigns from above: MasterSlave.  This connects heavily with Nietzsche.  The problem is how politics has developed since the 1800s, to now, where the genitally mutilated have a Resentiment and obsession (Neurosis) revolving around MasterSlave dynamics.  The Marxists of the world want to "free all the slaves" ...not so they will become 'Free'.  Since they won't even attempt to define what this means!  No, but rather, so that all the world slaves are converted to THEIR mastery.  They want the lions to service the lambs (Inversion of Nature, Inversion of Monarchic/Aristocracy, Inversion of Nature/Genes).

All of this is convoluted, yet ingrained deeply into the "Subject/Object" division.

It is the Marxist secularization of the previous millennia of European history.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:42 am

What is slightly superior the inferior refers back to what it knows of itself. It is then compelled to emulate or to imitate, or to mock when it can do neither.
What is far above its ability to comprehend - having nothing in its subjective self-knowledge to relate it to - it experiences with anxiety, like everything incompréhensible.
Dismissing it is a way of reducing its anxiety.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:44 am

Midwits and Dimwits seek reason and cause in the 'exterior' world, outside themselves. They do not seek cause or Causation within themselves. They do not look into the mirror—of their own thoughts: "Hmm, why did I think this? Why do I think this way?" Instead Causality is something that does not apply to the human body, mind, or genetics. This is the mentality/rationalization/mind of the Masses: Subjectivity.

The average and lower intellects lose the ability to identify and match patterns (in Nature) at a basic level. Early in life, most children are teenagers are shamed of their stupidity, rebuked, and embarrassed. At this stage, once their social Humiliation is complete, they are then re-programmed to seek out "higher authorities" (State and Church) to represent their thinking, for them.

Consider "peacegirl" on ILP as an example of this, or most Christians, or most of the average populace in general.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:50 am

It always mystified me, as a younger man, why most people didn't have a sense of Autonomy, self-responsibility, morality, etc. I mistakenly believed that what people preached about "individuality!" and "freedom!" they at least believed in, or practiced. Shouldn't the average person, most people, want to be 'free' in their thinking and in their thoughts? Isn't this what they mean by their 'individuality!' No... it's not.

Rather, this philosophical journey unveiled to me that the majority of any populace, depends exponentially upon perceived Authorities. And this they project and accuse of "Objectivity!" in the way iamabigdummy does. They subconsciously connect 'Objectivity' with Abrahamic notions of "divine entity", as-if a person could not be self-conscious of what it means ...to be free, or to know yourself, or to have a choice, or too choose, or to determine, or to seek causes in the world, or to desire greater understanding. For them, "greater understanding" comes directly from Above, politically, as-if a lecture, to a pupil, were the only way.

Because it is how they perceive philosophy, as something "come down from above".
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:51 am

An animal only perceive other.
Higher organisms, e.g., dolphins, chimpanzees, orangutans, whales, etc, have developed self-consciuosness.
The second stage si reached. The stage of projection, using self-cosnciuosness.
An evolutionary step.

Manimals remain in this stage of projection, and so they associate empathy with sympathy/antipathy - subjective projection.
The first step is sympathy - seeing oneself in other - projecting oneself in the place of another.

The next step is towards objectivity, and true empathy.
The perception of self and other from the perspective of god, or a detached consciousness.

Somewhere between second-person and third-person god of Abraham is placed, as part of the mind's confusion or its intentional defence against this new source of anxiety and suffering.
God of Abraham is this third-person....only now it is a collective so that all can participate and immerse themselves in a whole - made inconspicuous or part of a uniformity.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:53 am

It's how people 'hide' their selves, by blending into the crowd, through 'God'.

It's how the masses absolve themselves of: guilt, shame, fear, fear of exclusion, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:56 am

Æon wrote:


Consider "peacegirl" on ILP as an example of this, or most Christians, or most of the average populace in general.
Yes, part of this confusion or intentional defensiveness is to associate this third-person perspective with an external agency - use it to absolve self of all responsibility.
Self becomes an avatar representing this mysterious otherness; an innocent representation of another.
Accountable only in relation to this alien agency, which is also its own.
Other and self unified, within this other.
Self is illusory or a shadow of this other.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 7:59 am

Æon wrote:
It's how people 'hide' their selves, by blending into the crowd, through 'God'.

It's how the masses absolve themselves of: guilt, shame, fear, fear of exclusion, etc.
Immersing and identifying with this other is part of the defence.

God = humanity; Humanity = god.

Intersubjectivity = collective otherness, perceiving oneself through shared morals, values, standards.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:11 am

The main marker for a subjective mindset that cannot be self-conscious, is when a person has a neurosis, psychopathy, obsession, or the myriad of mental illnesses, that prevent them from seeing "its own problems". It reminds me of the cliché, "the first step to solving a problem is to admit you have one". But there is no "admittance" to itself. It cannot source the problem within itself. It can only have an 'exterior' source of the problem.

This means that the person/brain/mind/irrationality will keep repeating its mistake over, and over, and over again, indefinitely.

These compulsions are common in the homeless, for example, or people abusing drugs, rejected by their families and general society. People don't want to spend time 'fixing' them, or even, tolerating their dysfunctions.


In the middle class, these dysfunctions and mental illnesses are 'tolerated', but only to a certain level. "Autists" and autism represent the edge of that toleration, the limit that social groups will go to in the middle class, to accept a member into its group. Because the middle class has enough wealth / energy / money / expenditure to afford the cost of some of its illnesses. This is especially true by how the middle classes choose their drug addictions and sexual perversions/pornography.

The upper classes have much of the same disease, but tend to root out and block especially destructive compulsions. They even have ways of utilizing 'destructive' human tendencies, for example, by redirecting psychopaths into the military-industrial complex, or through subterfuge and sabotage of foreign adversaries.

But back to the point, the particular person, the Western "Individual" is oblivious, and his "individuality" is an inversion of what it must mean, even hypothetically, to "be free" or to "be an individual".
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:14 am

I was re-watching the Bernay's documentary this week, to once again analyze how him and Freud developed Commercialism to sell this "ideal of individual self" to the American middle class for this past century. This is why most people, almost all, develop their ego/identity/psyche around Westernized propaganda and "pop"-culture.

Americanization / Globalization / Internationalist-Marxism
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:20 am

GM's evolved a talent to use semiotics - symbols/words - to manipulate humans.
Superstition is part of it - exploiting human anxiety concerning fate and existence.
Later they sold Americans - and through them the world - on the lie that there si no 'human nature'.
Freud, Bernay's uncle, focused on the trigger of sexuality. He is an example of projection.
His own sexual fetishes became universal. Jewish neurosis - consequence of mind/body dissonance - became westernized.

Did you watch the BBC documentary: Century of Self?

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:24 am

In a larger sense, the American middle-class represented a new generation of obscene wealth, that challenged and overcame the wealth of the European monarchies. This is why the British crown has been particularly relevant since the 1800s. The Anglo-American mimics British Aristocracy in almost every way. By having a car, a home, a white picket fence, the 1950s American felt like "living the dream".

But they were not the Aristocracy. They were still the "Middle-men" of history. Thus it enabled Bernays, from Freud, to develop Propaganda to its point today. This is why "social media" (Propaganda) is so powerful, and why Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter has been pivotal.

He who controls the Medium, controls the Masses.


The ideal of Autonomy was re-packaged and sold to the American middle-class, which they call today as "Our Democracy", its political sloganeering. But it's a ruse, a trick. The "Self" the Americans purchased, and represents the dimwit/midwit state, is an illusion.

Peacegirl is 50% correct in this. Her choice is an illusion. But that's as far as she gets, probably can get. That's as far as her mind takes her, without a hand to lead her further. She depends on an Authority, a Propagandist, a new Bernays to take her mind to the next steps.

Her (Dis)content is manufactured, by forces she dare-not attempt to understand.

And she will reject completely any 'complicity' within them.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:25 am

I watched it once before, years ago, but hadn't started connecting the dots to the points it was making then. Now things are making more sense, being applied to to how Self-consciousness develops in humanity.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:29 am

Essentially the 1950s, to now, has been about 'selling' to the American middle class, Westerners, an "ideal of self" that is a lie, delusion, falsity. It is essentially tricking the masses into a notion of individuality, but subtracted of all the elements which would, hypothetically, make a person "free".

So it becomes quite a sick-joke, an inversion.

This is especially poignant by how Americans claim to value "Freedom", so it's an easy sell, to an audience that is 99% the way of believing what you have to offer. All you then have to do is guide it slightly, to the routes those that Manipulate, desire.

The propagandizing has been failing though, this recent decade, as the same heroin fixation, drug abuse, loses its kick after long enough time. Some small pockets of people are 'waking' up to this "Wokeness" (propaganda). The system is weakening in its accelerated aging, elderly and feeble state.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Mar 11, 2023 8:32 am

The cynicism of the masses increases as mass immigration ensues, and there is no possible way for most people to attain the "American Dream" ...that no longer exists ...and if it does exist, then it involves dressing up in drag and fondling kids.  So the messaging is finished.

The genitally mutilated have drained most the blood of the host already.  Problem is, where's the next host?  The Old World, who has dealt with their shinnanigans a thousand times already?  No ...there is no next host.  At least, not on Earth.

Hence the civil strife among the Elitists on "how to deal with the decline", meaning, there's no next host available.
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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySun Mar 12, 2023 3:25 pm

Sloterdijk, Peter wrote:
On the highest level of polemical technology, our process of enlightenment reaches the point where it takes leave of a thousand-year-old dualistic tradition of metaphysics: The antagonism between res cogitans and res extensa in the cybernetic age becomes altogether invalid. To the extent that the res (substance) that thinks actually can be represented and produced as machine, the antagonism toward the res that exists in space (extension) disappears. In the meantime, there are modern artillery systems that in strategic jargon are called "intelligent munitions" or "smart missiles," that is, rockets that perform classic thought functions (perception, decision making) in flight and behave "subjectively" toward the enemy target. The existence of these systems signifies a metaphysical statutory declaration of our civilization: We have, in fact, become in large part subjects who think of themselves as "thinking things," and it is these thinking things that exchange blows in modern warfare. The difference between the hero and his weapon disappears; the megalomaniac self-preservation egos of our culture have externalized their own being as weapon. If, in the end, the self-sacrificing kamikaze pilots take over the function of the guiding system (res cogitans) in persona, then, in the case of the most advanced weapons of the present day, this heroic subjectivity has become an electronic subjectivity: The manned dive-bomber still presupposed a pilot who consciously took his inevitable death upon himself and demonstrated an ability to die peculiarly reminiscent of that quality described in ancient philosophy. In intelligent munition, this human factor is fully eliminated. A further degeneration of metaphysics to paranoia has come about; "live and let die" is accordingly not only the secret agent's motto but also the principle of modern warfare based on artillery and its extensions. With the "thinking missile," we reach the final station of the modern displacement of the subject because what is called subject in modern times is, in fact, that self-preservation ego that withdraws step by step from the living, to the summit of paranoia. Withdrawal, distancing, self-displacement are the driving forces of this kind of subjectivity. Artillery is only one of its manifestations and, especially in the form of electronic, intelligent, atomic munition, is the ultimate outgrowth of self-assertion and world domination from a distance. The modern long-range ego wants to preserve itself without recognizing itself in its own weapon. It must thus be split off from it as far as possible. Intelligent munition satisfies this need. Since its invention, the schizoid structure (the subject in the form of the state and the polemical self-preservation ego) approaches its consummation. The next great war foresees only schizophrenics and machines as combatants. Decisive homunculi in the state, ghostly split administrators of destructive forces, will press the decisive buttons "if it has to be," and heroic robots as well as thinking hell-machines will fall on each other—the experimentum mundi is at an end; humanity was a mistake. Enlightenment can only summarize: Humanity cannot be enlightened because it itself was the false premise of enlightenment. Humanity does not come up to scratch. It carries within itself the obscuring principle of dissimulation (displacement), and where its ego appears there cannot shine what was promised by all enlightenments: the light of reason.
Critique of Cynical Reason
The subjective subjugates itself to ...what is above....or desires to subjugate what is below.
It's either/or binary - good vs. evil.
It is the only way it can comprehend other, and its objectification of itself and the world.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyFri Mar 31, 2023 11:47 am

Prolegomena:
All value judgements are triangulations of subject, object/objective, and distance/effort, relationship of subject with object within an environment, i.e., world.

When it comes to matters of taste then the particular qualities of the subject are to be taken into consideration, determining its relationship with an objective, viz., the subject's habituation, its particular chemistry, its personality (organ hierarchies), determining its needs and these needs determining its preferences.
There's a reason why herbivores can never develop the brain sizes of carnivores or omnivores - nutrition is how environment, i.e., world, establishes range of probabilities, and evolved survival and reproductive strategies determine nutritional preferences within a given environment.
Genes/Memes - genes determining what nutrients it requires more than others; memes determining how these nutrients are combined, prepared, and presented, i.e., form and synthesis.


In matters of art, such as music, the same triangulation is to be considered relative to the individuals, habituation, its particular quality of mind, its pattern combinations determining its particular resonance....relative to an art piece.
Language is an art-form - the primary art form also shared by other species.
Genes/Memes, again.


Nevertheless, there is an objective method of determining which preference is superior and which is inferior.
In matters of nutritional tastes the nutrients present are measurable. How absorbable they are, how available, how energy efficient etc.
In matters of music again the relationship of subject to objective relative to world, viz., how the art piece relates to world...and since at is a representation, then how well this piece of music represents the world, relative to the subject's ability to appreciate it - in general, melody are more sophisticated forms foi music relative to drum-based, or beatr-based, representing organic metabolic rhythms, whereas melodies represent cosmic rhythms...and so melodies are more objective creations of existence, whereas beat-based music is more subjective, and so preference in one or the other is determined by the subject's ability to become objective or remain subjective - the latter determined by the particular's of the subject's metabolic rhythms.

Parelipomena:
Art, including culinary, represent the relationship of a subject with tis objective, starting with the world as the primary object of its interest - all objectives placed within the world, and all subjects existing within the same world.
When, and of, the objective is placed in some imaginary objective outside the world it is a representation of the subject's relationship with the objective world as an undesirable - nihilism.
Sexual preferences, also exhibit this relationship between subject and object/objective. If said preferences nullify life, or make reproductive impossible, then such preferences express the subject's negative relationship with existence - the causes of such a negative relationship can be genetic or memetic, gen es determining what memes satisfy a psychosomatic need/desire.
Memes, i.e., dogmas, ideologies, art, are always extensions of genes.
All art is a a mediator between subject and objective world - including the nihilistic dogmas that use art, including language - to disconnect and fabricate alternate realities.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptyFri Mar 31, 2023 12:40 pm

Natural order, including chaos indirectly affecting it, determines what is objective.

Subjectivity determines how an individual manifestation of this natural order relates to what is objective.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Apr 01, 2023 7:15 pm

Objective reality is fluctuating and yet ordered....chaos affect order but the subject can only experience it via what it can perceive, which is always order - i.e., patterns it interprets as appearances.
The quality of its mind determines the quality of its pattern recognition, in turn determining the probability of tis survival.
Survival depends on tis adaptive abilities - its free-will, i.e., choices made on the spot - in real time.

Certain interpretations are ingrained into a species - as a priori , but these are not rigid denying the organism the ability to adapt, modify them, on the fly.
Adaptability is fitness.

Value judgments follow the same rules of trial & error - natural selection.
Those that can adjust their innate reactions to circumstances, imposing learned evaluations over their impulses, survive...those that cannot perish.
Sheltering atrophies and socially selects out of the gene pool these adaptive potentials, nurturing dependence.
After generations of socially selected usurping natural selection rules, and multiple generations of sheltering, individuals lose their natural adaptive abilities, replacing them with socially adaptive abilities - Feminization of Man.
Pretence, duplicity, cynicism, narcissism, autism, savantism....are all by-products of social adaptive pressures, cultivating intersubjectivity, replacing natural adaptability, necessitating the cultivation of objectivity.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Apr 01, 2023 7:22 pm

Manmade environments replacing natural environments, pressure individuals to adapt to their circumstances.
Sheltering socially selects specific kinds of traits, at the cost of naturally selected traits.....yet social manmade environments exist within and in relation to natural pressures, so sheltering cannot totally protect individuals from natural pressures.
The degree of sheltering, and the degree of nihilistic values governing these sheltered manmade environments, determines the degree to which natural roder becomes intolerable to those born and raised within these manmade, incomplete environments.
Prolonged quarantine makes individuals more vulnerable to natural diseases - their natural autoimmune systems prevented from developing.

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PostSubject: Re: Objective <> Subjective Objective <> Subjective - Page 14 EmptySat Apr 01, 2023 7:29 pm

Erroneous subjective value judgements are quickly eradicated when we allow nature to affect men without any interventions.

Perspectives are tested and eliminated, or pressured to change, adjust, adapt, naturally, with no human intervention necessary.

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