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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyTue Nov 09, 2021 3:55 pm

Defensive nihilism inverts the sequence, linguistically.

Even though we can experience choice the wanton psyche must make it illusory, returning to the Abrahamic mythology - Magian.
A totalitarian authority is behind this illusion of choice. It is occult, a secret only the few can ever understand and accept.
Postmodernity is the logical end of this feminine neurosis.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyTue Nov 09, 2021 4:09 pm

Living organisms are not outside the causal chains, they are part of existence and therefore participate in causality, to a degree determined by their power, expressed as will power.
Natural selection is not a farce being played with life as nothing more than victims of god's will - though they prefer to call this concept - idea - order, or universe.
These neurotics pretend to not believe in god, because they've renamed the concept, but have retained the totalitarian power they attribute to it as an absolute.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] clarifies the connections - causal chains - between Abrahamism, Marxism, and Postmodernism.
You will find the same type of psychologies being seduced, bribed/blackmailed or coerced by these feminine methods.
The same type of psychologies that reject any degree of culpability in the creation of their own life's circumstances - demanding to be considered innocent, and victims of some evil agency - if not Capitalists, then the state, or God, or Satan, or absolute order, or the universe, or causality, or fate....they have multiple names for the same idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyTue Nov 09, 2021 7:16 pm

What does Peterson say?
I'm paraphrasing...
To find meaning in life you must take responsibility.

It's the part of Christianity that retained pagan attitudes, in a corrupted form.
See how "free-will" plays out in the bible.
It's partly why Judaism and Catholicism were at war for so very long....those nasty heathen values, even in their corrupted form, were morally reprehensible - morally repulsive to victim psychology that had to be born innocent, or born into the status of deserving salvation.
Moral bigotry.

Christianity made salvation cosmopolitan - due to tis Hellenic roots - and this was unacceptable.
Even that remnant of Hellenism was unacceptable, ruining the sense of victimhood and fatalism - Messianism.  
There ought to be no way of breaking divine law - it must all be part of some divine plan, with a divine purpose.
No human purpose. No human responsibility.
This Trisexuality is also part of a divine plan to unify the sexes into a uniformity.
Nothing divisive is acceptable, whether it be ideological, spiritual, or biological.

The immediate benefit is all-incusivity, innocence...a loss of regret.
The individual need not blame himself for anything bad that ever has happened or will ever happen to him. He is not in control, he is but god's minion, part of a universal plan. Man has no Will. He is an agency of another's will.
The reward....innocence....releif....no sense of feeling bad in making bad choices, bad judgments....it was all inevitable.

This is where nihilism protects the ego from the negative effects of self-awarnes and objectivity.
The individual no longer feels insecure, inferior....based on his bad performances, bad judgments calls, poor choices.
He had nothing to do with his mistakes, with the circumstances of his own life.

What a relief, no?
Now he can laugh, become cynical, dismiss anything and everything, because it is all part of a plan and no matter what all will turn out exactly as they were meant to turn out.
Man can only hope it has been divinely determined that he was chosen to laugh, rather than cry at the divine joke being played upon man.

Natural selection no longer means you've been rejected, but only protected from playing into a role that only leads to more suffering.
Exclusion is now an indication of divine status.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyTue Nov 09, 2021 8:56 pm

Then one can be saved, liberated from the past, the unwelcome other through the magic of the Will, of choice, defined as something from nothing. The great god that arises out of nothingness and enfranchises one with freedom. Wanton indeed.

Macro and micro levels.
Sub-atomic activity, defined as random because limited human awareness cannot predict or understand it, cascades upwards, responsible for natural selection and the creation of the human mind. The divine is hidden in the smallest most mysterious places.
This randomness, let's say it's actually random. Which is to say, truly unpredictable, truly uncaused, simply spontaneous phenomena that arise from nothing without any pattern. This occurs at a micro level. But it influences the macro level, the level at which consciousness occurs.
So, consciousness is still a re-action to past events, still an effect. You are still the ongoing manifestation of past, even if those past events ultimately arose from nothing.

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So even if consciousness does not require quantum activity to function, your idea is that it is a response to randomness in the environment in general. This means that your free will is just an event determined by a roll of the dice on the micro level, a few steps back. Is that really what you are?

But extend this beyond this subject. It's established for the sake of this argument that phenomena can arise from nothing. But is there actually evidence of that? If it can occur at the micro level why not the macro? Is there some reason that quantum ex nihilo is possible but classical isn't? Could the universe have appeared from nothing? Space and time? How?
But how did the micro events occur from nothing? It's the same question. God of the gaps.

It seems to be a difficult idea to communicate because language contains within it the dichotomy I'm trying to avoid; I am the effect of the past, implying a distinction between the two.
What am 'I' that is distinct from past, that the past acts upon? Something disconnected, something magical, a thing in itself, a soul?
Is the present like in your conception, an innocent victim, a subject, a thing that is pushed around and caused, always an effect? What is it then? What is the past? How are they distinct? What is the present, this soul, such that it is completely uncaused and arises from nothing? How does it even interact with the past?
Why is the past an other? Why is it something that imposes itself on you? What would you be if it didn't? What are you, without the past? Free?
Is there really a distinction between cause and effect, or are they not actually a process - past present and future a single continuum? A single flow through time, the measure of change, the measure of their activity, of flux.
The 'you' in the past, was that you, or was that someone else? Does he impose himself on you as well? If he imposes himself upon you, are you then innocent of the actions resulting from that imposition? Or was it just you all along. I willed it thus, so shall I will it.
What can 'I' be then but an ongoing manifestation of past process, moving inexorably through time to the future, never fulfilled, never complete, never static? My choice and my will are my own. And not only mine but also the choice and will of all those who have gone before, without whom I would not be possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyWed Nov 10, 2021 7:03 am

apaosha wrote:
So even if consciousness does not require quantum activity to function, your idea is that it is a response to randomness in the environment in general. This means that your free will is just an event determined by a roll of the dice on the micro level, a few steps back. Is that really what you are?
No, my position is that random interactions occur on the continuously receding micro level, the quantum level, and ordered interactions - patterned - begin there and then unify into harmonious interactions that reach the size of sensual perception.
Chaotic energies cannot be integrated into harmonious unities because they are inconsistent and unpredictable so they repel.
Unities require consistent predictability where the repulsion is exceeded by attraction, signifying harmony, or reduced friction due to patterns dissonance.

apaosha wrote:
But extend this beyond this subject. It's established for the sake of this argument that phenomena can arise from nothing. But is there actually evidence of that? If it can occur at the micro level why not the macro? Is there some reason that quantum ex nihilo is possible but classical isn't? Could the universe have appeared from nothing? Space and time? How?
But how did the micro events occur from nothing? It's the same question. God of the gaps.
There is no-thing in the sense that there is no "thing". "Thing" refers to a mental construct - abstraction - which is an interpretation of dynamic interactions.

There is no void, no emptiness, since this indicates non-existence. There is no static, inert, state.
Existence is dynamic; dynamism is existence. Another term for dynamic and for energy is interactive - interaction is between different kinds of energies, and kinds refer to rhythms, tone, sequence (pattern).

apaosha wrote:
What am 'I' that is distinct from past, that the past acts upon? Something disconnected, something magical, a thing in itself, a soul?
Is the present like in your conception, an innocent victim, a subject, a thing that is pushed around and caused, always an effect? What is it then? What is the past? How are they distinct? What is the present, this soul, such that it is completely uncaused and arises from nothing? How does it even interact with the past?
The crucial factor here is memory. Life differs from other kinds of unities because it can store - in a simplified/general way - its interactions. It can learn, or it can interact informed by previous interactions.
We call these stored memories DNA.
In higher life forms an additional form of memory can be added - experiential, i.e., consciousness.
At this point we have an organism informed by two different pools of memory - genetic and memetics, inherited and experienced.
With humans and man's art - his ability to externalize experiences and memories - with man it is complicated by first- and second-hand experiences, or what we refer to as personal experiences and learned, or the adoption of another's experiences.  

apaosha wrote:
Why is the past an other? Why is it something that imposes itself on you? What would you be if it didn't? What are you, without the past? Free?
Past is nature. it is what has been determined and is immutable. It refers to god.
Causality.
The past is not something other than, it is present. Past is continuously made present as presence - perceived (interpreted) as appearance.
Past is determining the present which is dynamic - fluid, in flux. Life participates is a willful agency, in this present.

Non living unities interact unconsciously, without intent, following the path-of-least-resistance.
Life, has intent, it is willful. It expresses this willfulness as choice, founded on judgements.
Judgments are the continuous juxtaposition of ongoing experiences with stored experiences - memory.
So, here we also have a dynamic process of sensual input continuously being compared - evaluated - in relation to stored experiences - both first-second hand and inherited; both genetic and memetic.
This continuous process of juxtaposition, and reaction based on this juxtaposition is what we call consciousness.
Whereas non-living unities follow the path-of-least-resistance - a power relationship - life is guided and informed by this past, as it relates to a dynamic present, and life has intent and must find its way towards a objective despite this ongoing flux of existence. So life can choose a path-of-more-resistance. this becomes part of natural selection as one individual tries to outperform another by choosing more resisting paths - more difficult trajectories, the "road less traveled".  

apaosha wrote:
Is there really a distinction between cause and effect, or are they not actually a process - past present and future a single continuum? A single flow through time, the measure of change, the measure of their activity, of flux.
in my mind cause/effect is how man - or an organic mind - can conceptualize fluidity by constructing static points.
Minds needs absolutes. They need a "now" to understand the process of change we call time, and it needs a "here" to conceptualize a dynamic process of expanding possibilities/probabilities we call space.

Cause refers to past. A word that incorporates the sum total of the past made present - both the known and the unknown; both the knowable (ordered, patterned) and the unknowable (chaotic, random).
So "cause" is a generalization/simplification - abstraction - of this past - nature.
"Effect" is what is the immediate past, or how the mind experiences the present - because processing time forces the in to be lagging in its perceptions of existence. That's another issue.
So cause refers of past - nature - and effect refers to this past made present - as presence.
The cause is part of the effect and the effect becomes part of the cause in linear time.
Cause = past.
Effect = present.
The present is the cause of the yet to be - the becoming, so it becomes the cause of a future effect which only a sophisticated mind can imagine - theorize, project.    

apaosha wrote:
The 'you' in the past, was that you, or was that someone else? Does he impose himself on you as well? If he imposes himself upon you, are you then innocent of the actions resulting from that imposition?
Okay, now we are coming to identity - self.
Self is a continuum - across space/time - held together as a unity by memory.
It is life, since life differs from non-life because it is informed, guided, by memory.
Memory is the key - the accumulation and storage - in a simplified/generalized form - of experiences.
DNA is memory.
Where there is no memory there is no life; there is no self; no organism.
But organism are also dynamic, forces to constantly adapt/adjust to environmental flux.
So, self is an accumulative process, not a static thing. It changes - adding experiences, memories - over previous ones - past memories going back thousands or millions of years.
This is how AI differs from life.
Life carries its entire past - it is the manifestation of this entire past. It IS this entire past.

Some memories are more dominant - the experiential ones often usurping genetic memories manifesting impulses, instincts, intuitions....
memories are reaffirmed and reinforced by being recalled - brought into consciousness.
Dreams are how some of these primordial memories make themselves present in the mind, when its experiential, conscious, ludic part is quieted.
Now we are entering into mysticism.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyWed Nov 10, 2021 7:11 am

Satyr wrote:
Non living unities interact unconsciously, without intent, following the path-of-least-resistance.
Life, has intent, it is willful. It expresses this willfulness as choice, founded on judgements.
Apaosha's argument is that you can't have it both ways.

It's a straight line from bottom-to-top, or top-to-bottom. There cannot be 'randomness' in between. Nor does the line blur between unconscious/conscious, unwilled/willed. You must account for the division. You must account for the 'exact' moment(s) when bacteria become "willful", or you cannot explain the congruity between bottom-to-top.

So, at what point does organic life 'overcome' itself, if ever...
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyWed Nov 10, 2021 7:26 am

The point is when energies being lost due to attrition are reabsorbed back into the organism - feeding to replenish energies being lost.
Since this cannot be complete the organism is attracted to energies participating in tis unity to replenish what is being continuously lost due to interactivity.

This is the point when non-life becomes life.

Randomness is why existence began, as a Big Bang. If order were total it would have imploded into a singularity.
Linear time indicates increasing chaos - falling away from this point of near-absolute order - Yin/Yang.

Randomness is, in fact, what makes order emerge spontaneously within the flux.
Chaos makes order possible.


Circular.
As chaos increases - expansion of space/time towards infinity - possibilities become uniform.
Within this expanding field of possibilities a probability arises.

A black hole is a space/time event indicating the beginning of a new event like the big bang.
Eventually one big black hole, approaching the level of a singularity, will absorb existence, and on the other side a new big bang will begin the process anew.
Each new beginning will not be exactly like the previous one, due to randomness.
Some interactions will not be stale, others will not produce life...etc.
The process is continuous, until at some point this existence may repeat, but never exactly like it has.

There is no eternal return. Nietzsche used this idea - adjusting the Hindu concept of cosmic cycles - so as to create a psychological test.
Are you living a life you are willing to repeat infinitely?
If not, then do something about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyWed Nov 10, 2021 7:48 am

In my view this is here Nietzsche draws his positions of resentiment, and the overman, as a future man who has overcome the paradox of being a product and a victim of chaos.
Without chaos - non-pattered energies - there is no existence, and no life, and consciousness is unnecessary, while, at the same time, life depends and is ordering, worships and values order, appreciates order as symmetry - proportionality being a sacrifice of symmetry to functionality, which is necessitated by chaos.
Man worships order as divine - God - and is the benefactor of chaos - Satan.

Either absolute - order/chaos - would be an end - nihilistic.
Ergo I separate nihilism as positive and pure.
Positive nihilism seeks indirect annihilation via a singularity - an end of existence and consciousness.
Pure nihilism is content to surrender to oblivion, the negation of all order - uniform chaos.
There are very few pure or honest nihilists, most are duplicitous. they imagine the end as a positive immersion, assimilations, into a divine oneness - a singularity, of perfect, complete, absolute order.
This is the concept of Paradise/Utopia.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyWed Nov 10, 2021 11:14 am

If man is chained by causality, and all is determined by something else, and man has no way of challenging of changing or contributing to what is determined, then how can they complain.
About what and to whom are they complaining; what or who are they accusing of what?
Who is blamed?
Who is responsible if all are innocent and not responsible for anything?
This, too, is part of the play we are performing, and watching, at the same time.

Will to Power?
Ha!!!
Ego and its Own?
Ha!!!

Whose power, whose will, what ego, what own?
All is nil.
Enjoy the Last Man.
He will not last for long.
The Last Man has discovered, due to no effort on his part, the last philosophy, has discovered god, as god intended him to be the ones who will be privileged with such a discovery.
God of Nil, was always the god of the Abrahamics. Hope, presumably, was the punishment.
They were the evil and they awoke - woke - from it to re-discover their innocence, their goodness, amidst the trickery of Satan.
The story repeats....forever. Same script-ure, same actors, same directors....same audience.

It seems like a tragedy, but is a comedy.....and the woke ones experience it inverted, it appears to the few chosen like a comedy but its tragic.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyWed Nov 10, 2021 8:46 pm

Since Apaosha hasn't responded, I will presume that he is finished...


Agency/Autonomy is Nietzsche's 'Becoming'. It is not a "definitive point" in time that non-life becomes life, unconscious becomes conscious, or animal becomes agent. Rather it is a process. This is the definition, intention, and meaning underneath 'Becoming'. Rather than it be "white and black", yes or no, it is more of a social scale. In fact it is a biological scale. Conscious-life, Choice, Agency are compared to all other lifeforms, past present and future. Agency is a Competition, Agon. It rises and falls.

This is the essence of "soul/spirit/spirituality". It is the essence of Morality. It is the essence of Autonomy. Therefore, those with Self-Agency are self-responsible. You can call it "self-causing" or self-causal, causa sui. At what point does this occur? Compare one organism to another. Humanity believes itself 'free', compared to cats and dogs, trees and frogs. Humanity believes itself Conscious. This didn't happen "at one time", but at multiple points in Human history when rarer human intellects (Philosophers) contributed and added to the overall process.

These can be considered the Geniuses, Savants, Prophets, Wise men, Mystics, etc. Each adds something more significant than the last, and the collective 'building' of Consciousness is referred to as "God"/Divinity.


Morality is too complex, more complex than just one person, just one thinker. This is why it is difficult to pinpoint it to "only one point". Because it is not only one point, nor only one person.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyThu Nov 11, 2021 6:31 am

Possession
Consciousness lags behind reactivity.
The time required to collect and process sensual data creates a gap between existence - dynamic interactivity - and awareness.
It is experienced, after-the-fact, as if it had occurred to another, or the self were some strange other.
This is the point where Magians - crypto-Abrahamic nihilists like Harris - draw the line and reject all judgements and choices that were not the product of lucid consciousness.
They, essentially, reject the automated, evolved, reactions (judgements, choices, actions) of the body, and of the mind, which are enacted viscerally, spontaneously. Here mind is consciousness, rejecting the body, the visceral, the subconscious, anything that has not engaged a lucid, conscious mind because it doesn't have to - see how animals and plants judge, choose and act, without much of a consciousness, or a self-cosnciousness.
In fact this lucid state is self-consciousnes. The ego experiencing itself as if it were another.  
This produces an interesting conflict of meme/gene, where the individual consciously believes one thing but unconsciously, physically, acts in antithesis to this belief - this is mind/body dissonance, and it is pronounced when the mind has been infected by a nihilistic ideology attempting, ironically, to cope with self-cosnciuosness.
Feminine mystique is based on this dissonance of what the mind believes about itself, about what is moral, and proper, and what it does, based on judgements and choices it performs on an unconscious level. The individual, in extreme cases, is mystified by itself, it can no longer identify with tis own choices and actions.
In the past they would have said that the individual has been taken over, possessed, by demons or spirits, women were accused of bein witches - and the individual himself/herself would have felt possessed by some external agency, a god, or devil, a spirit, because he/she would also have been surprised by what they did and how they had already judged and acted, despite what they lucidly considered proper, or good.
All is due to the emergence of self-consciousness and the development of dogmas/ideologies that act to defend the ego - the lucid part of consciousness - from itself, form tis own physical, automated,  evolved over centuries of natural selection reactions, judgements, actions.
The more extreme the conflict between beliefs and actions the more severe the experience of being possessed.
This is where the nihilists reject free-will - nihilism being a radical contradiction of the physical, the tangible, the experienced. Their defensive beliefs - expressed via the adoption of nihilistic political and spiritual ideologies - are continuously contradicted by themselves, to the point where they feel out of control, as if their fate was not in their hands but determined by an external agency, a mysterious force, that forced them to act, and choose, in antithesis to their desired objectives.
Like I've said, Nihilism is the formalization of a defensive reaction to the emergence of self-awarness, exposing the individual - his consciousness - to a new more devastating source of suffering, objectivity.
Animals and plants are entirely subjective - they perceive other, not self.
The emergence of self-awarness makes it possible for the organism to experience self in relation to other - objectivity. This juxtaposition increases anxiety, the sense of insecurity, because such comparisons are not positive, threatening the individual's self-esteem, and his potential survival and reproduction.
Nihilistic spirituality developed first, followed by a gradual secularization of these coping mechanisms. This is why they are so popular and persistent. They provide a ideological - symbolic, linguistic - shelter for the ego to conceal itself in - the nil being the perfect concealment, as it negates it altogether so there remains nothing to compare and feel insecure and anxious about.
That's the genetic root of nihilism and why free-will is denied. The motive is not clarity but pleasure, or escaping pain/suffering. In this case regret or the idea that the individual contributed to the negative circumstances of his/her life, or, worse, that he's inherited a genetically poor hand which he must now play.
Nihilism denies there is a hand or a game, and that the game is rigged, the winner/loser determined before the cards were dealt.

Now let us proceed to meme.

Cultivation
How, then, does man manage to cultivate these subconscious, evolved, automated, reactions, judgements, choices?
The Liberal nihilists will claim there are no such impulses and man is born a clean slate - a bland hard drive.
He may even be duplicitous enough to claim that this is partially so, selecting which ones he prefers were inherited - genetic - and which ones cultivated - memetic.
I use the example of a martial artists who after years of training mind and body as managed to cultivate his natural fight/flight reactions - requiring no conscious participation - to a specific kind of reaction - refined them.
This refinement means that his subconscious reactions are usurped by the training to a degree where when in a physical conflict he need not think of his actions but perform them spontaneously, as if another were performing them.
In sports they call this "the zone". Something similar is achieved through meditation. This idea of being present, in the moment, means a shrinking of the gap between reaction and consciousness.
A refined individual's actions, expressed via judgments, choices, are now directed by a motive - ideal - that has possessed his primal, evolved, reactions.
This is also achieved culturally by training the child form the day it is born to react, judge, choose, in a specific way, so that as it grows these actions are automated, spontaneous - indoctrination, social engineering.
An adult will ac and think in accordance to his training - cultural indoctrination.
But here's the secret.
If the training is radically contrary to the inherited, evolved, ways of acting, judging, choosing, there will emerge a dissonance, experienced as neurosis, or as contradiction of thinking and acting.
Physical impulsive reactions cannot be radically contradicted by cultural refinement. The individual cannot be deprogrammed and then reprogrammed as one would a hard-disk in a computer - even in this metaphor there are restrictions, limits, imposed upon the programmer by the disk itself, i.e., its size and sophistication relative to the software.  
The martial artist cannot refine his defensive/offensive reactions to radically contradict his fight/flight mechanisms. He must work within their boundaries, use their pre-existing genetically established effects and direct them.
Therefore, a Communist cannot "cultivate" a human that thinks and acts like a bee or an ant, to create his ideal man, even if he begins early on to intervene in the development of a child's genetic proclivities and shapes its ego. The body carries its own set of memories, in the form of DNA, and these cannot be erased unless one erases the individual altogether.
Genetics are memories that go back centuries, and bubble up to the surface - consciousness - in unexpected ways, and if these are repressed- forgotten, they will become pressurized to the point where they begin to manifest psychosomatic effects, fetishes, neurosis, etc.
Redirecting them, refining them, is one thing, but totally dismissing them is another.

Healthy cultures refine pre-existing impulses, they do not negate and attempt o forget they exist, as do sickly, miserly cultures, i.e., cultures founded on nihilistic principles.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 7:31 am

Will is mostly subconscious, making itself aware to the individual's consciousness.
It expresses itself in movement, attitude/stance, as physical energy, what some call aura.
It projects itself as such in every motion, every utterance, every glance.
Most moderns don't realize how they've already announced who and what they are before they even say a word, or declare themselves this or that.
The contradiction between the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] sends and the words the mind speaks is how its pretentiousness and duplicity is exposed.
Females have evolved a knack for picking up such psychosomatic readings of body language, so as to counteract the male's evolution to exaggerate himself in his attempt to sell himself, to her evaluating judgments.

Ironically, the gradual development of self-consciousness - objectivity - exposes an individual to these messages, this subtle form of information/data sharing.
Individual's with a heightened sense of self, i.e., self-consciousness - empathy - are also quick to use nihilism as a defensive method, finding comfort in their subjectivity and its sympathetic/antipathetic projections.
This is most obvious with women who have an additional motive to cultivate sympathy within a group and how she relates with others within it.

The body speaks, i.e., communicates, chooses, judges, expresses these choices, judgements as movement, i.e., grace, patterns of movement, muscle tension, pheromones/scent, blink rates and rhythms, dilations/constrictions, etc.
We call this attitude - as in positive/negative demeanour - or chemistry, or aura.
This form of communication precedes semiotics, and goes back to plant life.
The body projects into the surrounding space/time a bio-magnetic field.

this biomegnetic aura is nothing mystical or magical, it is the sum total of an organism's attractive/repulsive interactions - aggregate energies - and since an organism is comprised of energies in relative harmony the biomagnetic aura is an excess of positive - attractive - energy, fluctuating within the day as the body's energies wax and wane, and an individuals organic harmony differs from individual to individual.
We can say that symmetry/proportionality, i.e., beauty is the physical manifestation of excess organic harmony, i.e., attraction.
Others feel this attraction as a mysterious force they attribute to multiple mystical causes, or magical forces. - women often refer to it as "chemistry" or "charm".

A mind that gains control over these physical forms of choosing, communicating, judging - to whatever degree they do so - are considered cultivated, sophisticated, above animals,. i.e., civilized.
A form of self-control intuitively experienced as power.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyFri Nov 12, 2021 8:51 am

Free-Will requires an Objective standard, which most humans have not and cannot recognize, as it is beyond their intellect and ability to recognize self (self-consciousness).

Such an Objective standard is the preliminary step toward any sort of "Morality". Man measures himself against others, against animals, against biology, against Nature. Only through self-recognition, and acceptance of one's own behavior (posed against and apart from all others), does he begin to understand. Self-responsibility comes later, upon the awareness of Choice. Most humans do not have "Choice", nor do they believe in it. Thus their awareness of "Freedom" is a farce and propaganda. Because they do not know of their own Nature/Instinct. As such, Morality will be an "outside imposition", rather than an Internal Standard. The difference, is (E)valuation.

Most of humanity accepts Morality from Authoritarianism. Somebody, or Something, "up on high" decrees reality as such and such Indoctrination, and the masses obey. They do not question, do not doubt, and do not understand the nature of their compulsion. Most of humanity does not self-reflect, upon this. Thus people do not have a 2-dimensional view of morality (back & forth), but only 1-directional, that of Command and Obey. The masses must Obey.


Only an awareness, and then a resistance, can begin self-awareness, self-recognition, and then self-consciousness and self-understanding. Resistance leads to question of Autonomy. Law and Authority are not external, but, internal. Will and Agency are not external, but internal. Most of humanity denies this, because their will has been broken long ago. Ancestors were slaves, and they have inherited their slavery, to this day. The opposite of Free or Freedom.

Until this gap is bridged, there is no communication between those who are Free and those who are enslaved, Thralls. Those who believe in "Free-Will", and those who do not, and can not.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 5:05 am

If the concept of "eternal return" is a way of evaluating an individual's true contentment then the concept of "free-will" is a way of evaluating an individual's true self-esteem and self-trust.


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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 5:12 am

Schmitt, Carl wrote:
Sovereign is he who decides on the exception.
It is the exception to the rule which necessitates an intervention to reaffirm it.

Chaos is why will - expressed as choice - is necessary.
Order allows no inventions - and if it is absolute, i.e., totalitarian, then it negates freedom by reducing choice to a singular option - inevitability.
Chaos is what permits will the leeway, the open space, of its expression.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 5:29 am

Since the beginning whatever man could not account for he blamed on a mysterious agency.
When thunder followed lightning, or when rivers flooded and then went dry, whatever was for him incomprehensible he made comprehensible by inventing a magical power.

So, too, does man hold something, and someone else accountable for his actions, and choices, and judgments he cannot, and will not, understand.
In all cases it is the negative which must be accounted for because the positive always finds a willing agency to claim it.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 6:33 am

If you go by the everything is pre-determined definition/idea of free-will then there is no free-will unless everything would be detached and unaffected by everything else.

I think everything is connected but that doesn't mean that there is no free-will, at least in my view it doesn't mean that.

First of all I think that the future is unknowable, even an omniscient god wouldn't know the future, or to be more precise omniscience is not possible, theoretically not possible, not in my understanding of reality.
So, if that is the case then there isn't really anything pre-determined, there are near future event which are incredibly probable, so much so that it forms our 100% level of certainty concept of causality, but I don't see in that case a theoretical (meta-physical) issue with free-will.

I mean the question is if you can incorporate free-will in your meta-physical conception if there is no strict separation of body and mind, no body-mind dichotomy.

Can there be free-will only if the mind were to be detached from the body. I think it depends on how you conceive of free-will.

To me, life is more than just matter, something that is alive is distinct from matter and it is this distinction that holds the key element to what creates something that we call free-will in life with higher cognitive function.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 7:06 am

How do you define "matter"?
I define it as a form of energy which is slower in relation to the observer.
The different types of energy are gas, liquid, solid, all referring to rates of interaction relative to the conscious mind and tis metabolic rates - tis processing perceptual speeds.

Soul refers to the mind/body synthesis - a dynamic process which cannot be called matter nor energy - since it is a combination of different rates of interactivity in harmony - which is what an organism is.
Spirit, on the other hand may be used as a synonym to soul, but it can also refer to the continuum of memories that stretch to an indefinite past, manifests in the present as a presence, an identity.
An individual organism can be encompassed within the space/time period of its conception and /or birth and its death, but this would be a shallow way of defining it.
An individual is a manifestation of two genealogies merging. Each is a continuum of uninterrupted memories passed on from generation to generation in the form of DNA, and added to, in each generation, by an individual's ongoing experiences.

The future is unknowable because it isn't entirely a product of ordered interactions...otherwise it would be completely predictable.
This is what is implied by absolute order, that despite the complexities the future is entirely predictable, since it follows an ordered path determined by patterns which man calls "laws".
The only way the future is unpredictable is if there are random energies that affect the final result.
Since an organism is of order and can only perceive what is ordered these unpredictable energies can only be experienced, after-the-fact, as slight modifications, unexpected affects that slightly alter the outcome.
These light unforeseeable modifications are what make consciousness necessary - as reactions that adjust an organism to their challenges.

There can be no "detachment" of mind form body - no matter how much the desperate degenerates wish it.
All they can do is linguistically declare it so.

Mind/Body differ only in rate, rhythms, of interactivity.
The difference is that of energy versus matter.
All is Energy - with a capital 'E'...and what we refer to as solid, liquid, gaseous, or energy, refers to a degree, a dynamism, relative to our evolved metabolic rates, determined how fast we can perceive and process interactions - data, stimulations.
I've placed will in the ongoing dynamic present, which can only be experienced after-the-fact, as if it were occurring to another. This is why objectivity can detach from the subjective and perceive the process from a third-person perspective.
An organism evolved to automatically react to stimuli without any brain required to process and judge and decide a course of action.
Free-will occurs on a subconscious level.
Man judges and chooses before he is even aware he's done so.
Therefore, cultivation, civilization, is a training (paideia) that automates human reactions - a second nature - overriding pre-existing impulses.
Like a martial artists after years of rigorous mental and physical training makes certain actions automatic, overriding his genetic impulses.
He no longer needs to think, analyze, and then act, he does so with lightning speeds because he's made these controlled reactions his second-nature.
He enters the zone, another state of mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 7:11 am

Cult of victimhood presupposes the absence of individual free-will as a necessary requirement of its innocence, its lack of culpability, its rejection of all degrees of responsibility that will taint it.
There are no “innocent victims” without this absolute rejection of all participation in the conditions of one’s lived experience.
An absolute denial of free-will is tantamount to attaining the state of moral purification – an absolute victim of other. Victim status increases in proportion to the degree of innocence, non-culpability, an individual can claim, so the denial of free-will is part of current victim psychology. Everything negative that occurs to an individual or a group, must be a product of another’s hatred, or envy, or wickedness. They have no part in why these others behaved towards them in the way they do; they are innocent, their actions, pure, clean, or supernatural in origin.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 7:21 am

The issue of free-will conflicting with determinism happens if one believes in a mind detached from the body on the one side and then determinism reigns and controls everything, every matter that is not this detached free mind.

It's the mind detached from the body looking onto a world that is perfectly knowable and everything is moving as ordained, pre-determined.

I used the word matter in the sense of everything that is not the mind. Assuming a viewpoint of the people who detach themselves, their mind so to speak, from reality.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 7:29 am

Anfang wrote:
The issue of free-will conflicting with determinism happens if one believes in a mind detached from the body on the one side and then determinism reigns and controls everything, every matter that is not this detached free mind.

It's the mind detached from the body looking onto a world that is perfectly knowable and everything is moving as ordained, pre-determined.
Yes...and that's the intent.
The sanctification of man, as pure mind, "liberated" by the obviousness, and limitations of the physical.
A form of self-transcedence via ideology - ideas given logos, in other words words and nothing more than words.
The physical, the present made apparent, is what they want to negate.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 8:46 am

It can be simplified though.

You don't need to detach yourself metaphysically. A mere separation of Time is enough. "You" are not he same You as 1 year ago, as 1 month ago, as 1 day ago, as 1 second ago, as 1 nanosecond ago. The "detachment" is only imagined separation through 'Lethe', forgetfulness, thoughtlessness. No human mind has the power/energy required for Continuous memorization/consciousness. To hold a conscious image, Consciousness-itself, requires burning calories. It requires burning fuel. A more 'intelligent' mind, has higher process speeds. The higher the process speed, the more burning and fuel required.

This has been externalized to Computerization. If you take all the Computer power in the world, again, it will produce something far greater than a single human, but there is always flaws and lack. There is always error, lack of processing speed, lack of memorization.

The memory of 'Nature' is greater than all life in totality.


The 'separations' occur outside of any singular, or even collective, awareness. Then comes the "God of the Gaps" fallacy, Ex Nihilo, Mysticism, Supernatural postulations. This is unique to Mankind by our Creativity. Man is more creative in his Hopes and Fears, which is projected into the unknown.

What is known, depends on what is remembered, memetically and genetically.

The power required, is the "Willpower" of Free-Will.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 8:49 am

Freedom is the 'Choice' of consciousness, necessitating Risk-taking.

No matter what you choose to do, or not do, is a risk. Not choosing, is a risk. To exist, is a risk.

Freedom is contingent upon survival instincts. Evolution allows for compounding, exponential amounts of new choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 12:12 pm

The very essence of Consciousness, is as-if suddenly, waking up to a Choice.

And not Choosing, ignorance, is also a Choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyTue Nov 23, 2021 10:03 am

The issue is when an individual has a choice between chicken, beef or fish, is the choice already determined, because no matter which choice is made the imbecile will claim it was inevitable, fated, there could not have been any other choice?
That there is a choice is determined not by the individual. The preference is also determined, but not certain. The options presented have a probability range. It's probability is determined not its certainty.
How the options are prepared and presented is cultural, and determined by upbringing.
So, the individual's nature determines his need for nutrition.
The individual's biochemistry, his organ hierarchies, determine which nutrients he will need, at any given time.
The individual's upbringing will determine which method of preparation and presentation he will be accustomed to and show a preference for, but it will not make it certain because the individual may be genetically inclined to be explorative, experimental, more attracted by the novel, the exotic, the different.
For the imbeciles the choice is certain, and no mater which choice wins out in the end that was always the choice that would have been made - there's a invisible agency controlling it all, and the individual is perceived to be  considering his options and to be choosing, but this is not the case - that's an illusion.
What IS, is illusory - what ought to be, IS certain, absolute, already determined.
What we see is not real. It's what we don't see which is more real, or at least as equally real as what is seen.
What we know is not true, it's what we don't know, what we might know, which is true, or at last as equally so as what is known.    

So, when an individual makes a choice it's not really him choosing, its the universal will - to power - which is at work through him.
The divine is channelled through the individual - consciousness is transmitted via the brain.
the one-God works though his creations.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyThu Nov 25, 2021 11:56 am

What would a divine Will will when it is the only will?
Will to Power describes an absence or an uncertainty, at the very least an unattainable completion, incompleteness - no omnipotence, but just degree of power.
Why would this power be necessary when the one-Will is the one and only will? Why would it be uncertain, requiring it to be willed?
Will only acquires meaning in the context of uncertainty, competing wills, challenging values, ideals, the very nature of selection, of agon.

The description of willing will describes a choice to not will willing, a divinity that is debating its own existence and may choose to not continue. Is this why it requires a distraction to occupy itself so as to not suicide?
It implies a choice.
Choice is the issue, or "problem".
Choice is what degenerates want to avoid, either by including themselves in a collective - such as a one-god - or by rejecting its very existence as illusory.

This is what happens when a word, referring to a mental abstraction, a concept, is detached from the source; when will is externalized and disconnected from life - what Abrahamism does.
Other forms of nihilism disconnect other concepts from their tangible sources, like "male/female", "race", "spirit/soul", "mind" etc.
The options are as many as there are human concepts.

Causality must implode into a singularity. Cause/Effect must become Effect....with no cause. The sequence is illusory.
There is no past, present, or future as all exists simultaneously, so choice is really going through the motions, a joke, a trick....for some reason. A performance the cynic was determined to be the only ones laughing at, while the rest we determined to weep, or to stoically observe.
Future already exists therefore the choice is inevitable, has already been mde....so why the pretence. Man is nothing but a stone, a wisp of smoke, a note...

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyYesterday at 9:33 am

Americanism’s individualism begins with the presumption of a “freedom from…” rather than a “freedom to…” Messianism is expressed in this linguistic/semiotic “liberation from the past” – disconnection, rejection, negation of past – either selectively or completely – which is the foundation of nihilism.
The “will” thus disconnected from everything is rooted in nothing, emerging from nowhere which can now be substituted by a beyond or an occult ideal. Once no-thing is the foundation of will, some-thing can take the form of an absolute one/nil that cannot refer to the past but to what is above or beneath what is experienced as existence. “Will to Power,” “Will to Life” is no longer a reference to a continuum – past/present/future – but to a universal, an absolute singularity, or an absolute void. “Will” is taken out of its place in the dynamic present acting as a mediator between past and a projected future, but is converted to an abstraction, a divine idea/ideal, a concept existing, ironically, in the mind of the willing.
Individual having lost its identity outsources its will to evade the consequences, i.e., accepting responsibility. Willing is a perpetual fleeing from, rather than a movement towards, an intentionality guided by precedent – it is continuous forgetfulness. A will with no past can then also reject the future to become a no-thing continuously inventing itself anew. By sampling from what becomes present to it – is presented to it as if it were due to some divine plan, fate. The future replaces the past as the source of becoming. It is given what has already been determined – movement towards a determined future is a continuously rejection of an immutable or non-existent past. The will is not pushed but pulled, i.e., attracted, towards its determined destination which already exists.

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PostSubject: Re: Free-Will Free-Will - Page 17 EmptyYesterday at 11:55 am

Circumstance = effect.
What has been caused, what has been determined, by unknown factors and known factors, by other and by our own participation in the events, i.e., circumstances, in the past, which are now immutable.

Circumstances determine options, the range and our ability to choose from that range of options.
Ideal, objective, goal, = intent, focusing the will and determining which options has a higher chance, i.e., probability, of being chosen.
The objective is what decides the choice in a given circumstance, and since objectives can shift or our method/strategy of reaching said objective may adapt, due to precedent, i.e., past failures/successes, the choice is not inevitable.

If the chose could not have been made any other way, the chosen could not have not been chosen, then that is not a choice. this is a "choice" in the same way Adam & Eve were given a "choice" - a paradox?
No, a lie, a self-deceiving method of absolving responsibility - salvation myth.
Salvation of "primordial sin" is a concealed salvation from past, from nature, from oneself, from the choices made by one's ancestors.
Since these choices resulted in the individual doing the denying his/her denial, rejection, is a death wish, a concealed admission of not wanting to have ever existed.

This is where imbeciles insert Heidegger's Dasein. Dasein is thrown into existence, without having a choice in the matter, and these cowards translate this as the the absolution of agency.

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