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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySun Nov 03, 2019 9:07 am

Choice is how the mind displays its freedom from the body; how idea separates itself from the physical realm of causality.
The more difficult the choice, the more will-power is required - the most it contradicts its own physical impulses.
The difficulty of choosing exposes the degree of the organism's freedom.

Nihilism is an exhibition of freedom to contradict natural order, but absolutes are mental constructs, therefore this absolute freedom is naive and based on a confusion between noumena and phenomena - creating a dissonance between mind and body.
Absolute freedom is another chimera, worshipped by positive nihilists; and the absolute negation of freedom worshipped by pure nihilists.
As with power, knowledge, understanding (all concepts), freedom is a matter of degrees, not absolutes - an organism is more or less free, not absolutely free or absolutely a slave and un-free.
Ergo Will to Power...not Power to Will.

Absolute awareness implies infinite options; absolute power and freedom implies infinite choices.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 04, 2019 9:40 am

Every choice is based on external stimuli - the immediate nurturing, a specific pool of choices, physical impulses sampling from the past, promoting another, overlapping, pool of choices....and the judgement is the expression of a fee-choice, because the judgement has a yet-to-be objective, i.e., a goal, a projected destination.
This shifts, because the destination may change, or the path towards it shifts - circumstances are interactions manifesting as phenomena, that aid or hinder a path towards a destination.
This is exactly why conciousness had to liberate itself from precedent....because the circumstances are constantly changing, not only in an orderly fashion, but also randomly - both chaos and order participating in the outcome, the perceived circumstances.
The brain/mind is the only place that can remain free from external interactions - it is the only place where the absolute can exist as a vague, unclear, obscure, concept....static, unchanging, in relation to the fluctuating cosmic circumstances - rigid, by comparison.  
The mind is the only place the absolute oneness and absolute nil can exist as abstraction, as idea/ideal...and as a goal....a designation that is nowhere to be found, other than in the mind of the subject; in the mind the natural space/time rules do not apply. a man can imagine himself flying, soaring into space, travelling back in time, creating strange new life-forms....synthesising incompatible concepts etc., so only in the mind can the abstraction, the ideological concept of an absolute state, exist.
Outside the mind the concept is meaningless....there is no immutable, indivisible, singularity or void.
So, meaning represents the inter-relationship of real and unreal mental abstractions, just as a man can create an imaginary map of Middle-Earth that corresponds to nothing outside the minds that share this imaginary world...a map with no geographical reference.
There can be realistic and unrealistic goals, objectives, destinations....most are a degree of both.
The mind is constantly re-evaluating its own interpretations in relation to a fluctuating world; constantly adjusting its judgements to the influx of new data....  
This is how choice is affected in the immediate....in the present.
One moment I choose this, but a hour or a minute alter the circumstances have changed, predictably, and so I adjust my choice, keeping my goal fixed...or I may even abandon the goal as unrealistic, as founded on an error in judgement.
My choice must remain flexible....free from precedent, which only offers a foundation to judge the shifting circumstances, so as to differentiate the illusory from the real.

Most of the data flows into my brain unconscionably....I never become aware of it, because I don't have to. only when the data is traumatic, severe, a big change requiring the processing of my lucid mind - ego - do I become aware.
I am choosing even when I am not aware that I am doing so....and so i guide myself towards an inevitable destination of my own choosing. I participate in my own circumstances, but blame the interactions I have no control over, so as to absolve myself of the responsibility - of my weakness to process all the data, or all the probabilities....or to absolve myself of the errors in judgement, or my own wilful participation in the negative circumstances I then blame entirely on others - I self-deceive.  
Self-awareness is not only a source of anxiety and vulnerability it is also a source of empowerment - only when i know this is occurring can I intervene to stop it, or redirect myself according to new criteria, more lucid, conscious criteria.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 05, 2019 1:08 pm

We make choices all the time...only most of them are on a subconscious level, forcing us to consciously justify them.
Some cannot, so the occult is invented to explain them, and to place the blame on something or someone else.

Ego is the lucid, conscious part; self is the unconscious.
Ego is of the mind; self is the body, and more, it is the sum of all nurturing - nature made present.

Most can only identify with ego....nihilists go further, denying ego & self, or just 'self'...superficially, and hypocritically.
Self is past - sum of all nurturing.
Some nihilists selectively preserve ego as a representation of the present....while negating past and, oft-times, future, because many have no investment in it....due to their own degenerate inheritance.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySun Nov 17, 2019 6:52 pm

The one who chooses has power; the one chosen is powerless.
The implications are clear.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySun Nov 17, 2019 6:54 pm

The predator choose when and what to hunt.
The herd is chosen.
The farmer chooses what to do with his herd.
The herd endures stoically....and innocently?

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 18, 2019 6:12 am

Responsibility & Guilt

In as human court of law the perpetrators awareness contributes to evaluating the level of his guilt.
Intent implies an awareness of the consequences. Ignorance, though a lessens crime, reduces the guilt due to the actor's lack of intent.
But this does not erase his responsibility. Though he may not have intended to kill a child that he did, even due to his ignorance, or lack of technique, or whatever, makes him guilty....and if he is normal he feels it.

If a man goes out and picks and consumes a toxic mushroom, and dies from its effects, is the guilty party, because he is the active agency, whereas the mushroom is passive.....yet, the fact that it manufactured the toxin also implies an intent, albeit a defensive one. It is responsible for the man's death, even if it has no way of knowing or stopping itself from being toxic, but the largest portion of responsibility is placed upon the active agency, the man who went out looking for the mushroom and essentially killed it, and its death lead to his own.
This does not make the mushroom not responsible. We can't call it innocent because it is ignorant....the toxin's production carries the insinuation of intent.
We don't absolve another of responsibility because the negative consequences were unintended.
In the case of the mushroom's defensive toxin, they are intended, even if the plant is ignorant of its own activities and their intent.
Cause and Effect do not require a conscious agency, only a process of trial and error, through the process of natural selection. The intent is to survive and propagate.
To deny another this is to make you responsible for its inability to survive and propagate.
What this implies is a denial of a future, a negation of the other's potentials and probabilities - its space/time, where space is possibility and time is a dynamic relationship between an organisms metabolism and cosmic interactivity - Flux. On one side, the subject is ordering, perceiving order, and on the other, the objective world, chaos is also participating in the inter-activities.
So, the subject relates to the object as a negative, due to the presence of chaos and its dynamic nature, threatening the subject's desire to self-order and to maintain itself indefinitely.
Order = probabilities.
Chaos & Order = possibilities.
The subject wants to preserve and enhance particular probabilities in a sea of fluctuating undesirable probabilities and unknown possibilities. This is the source of its anxiety.
We can say that the cosmos is responsible for the organism's anxieties, even if the cosmos has no intent, no will. Only living organisms have a will, a focused intent, even if it is unconscious, impulsive, as with plants.
The plant's intent to survive and propagate made it produce the toxin, as a defence against active agencies with their own intent to survive and propagate, and so to consume it. The plant's intent makes it more than just responsible for the man's death, though the man's responsibility is highest.
He chose to go out looking for something to consume and he chose to pick, kill the mushroom, and he chose to consume it.
That he was ignorant of the mushroom's toxicity is not an excuse....he dies. Nature's decrees are harsh offering no compassion due to ignorance.
Only man feels compassion for another due to his/her ignorance, because only man can relate to the infinite unknown possibilities and probabilities of existence. He can relate to another, because he too is anxious about the sees probabilities and possibilities.
Yet, this still does not make man absolve the active agency of responsibility.
responsibility does not only mean causality, it means intent. It is the intent that is being judged in a human court, to determine the degree of punishment....without ever absolving the actor of responsibility.
What is being judged is the degree or the severity of the responsibility.
the agency had choice....and even if ignorant of the consequences, its judgement - poor and partial - lead to the choices which resulted in a negative outcome.
Choice is the decisive factor.
Even the mushroom chooses, even if unintentionally, to produce the defensive toxin as a means to maintaining itself in a world of active agencies.


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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 22, 2019 11:55 am

Energies - whether patterned (ordering) or random (chaotic) - interact with no intent. Their interactions are their essence. The type of energy - its rhythm, spin, vibration, speed, direction - determines the interaction and its degree.
Compatible patterns attract, incompatible patterns repel - the degree of their compatibility, their agreement, determining the degree of attraction/repulsion.
ergo, random energies can never be compatible with patterned or even with other non-patterned energies. This is why chaos is discreet, manifesting as appearance through their interaction with patterns.
No will, no consciousness, no choice.
What has choice is what is alive. The very definition of life implies choice.
Life being an unity of compatible patterns that has established a cohesion that is cultivated and reinforced over time, i.e., an organism; self-organizing, where 'self' refers to the continuum passed on as memory (DNA), informing and directing the organization of patterns.
Life is born, (thrown), awakens, to existence gradually. It's ascent from lower to higher degrees of awareness multiplying its options and its ability to choose - directing its aggregate energies towards a desired goal - an objective.
This directing of energies (patterns) is called 'will', i.e., Will to Power, Will, to Life, Will to Death...etc.
To will is to choose - choice referring to the objective, will referring to the subjective.
I will myself towards an objective, without knowing if it will agree with my expectations of it.

Choice does not mean it has been determined and therefore an illusory choice. It means the organism participates in determining its own future, through its conscious and unconscious (automatic, impulsive, instinctive) choices.
The body is judging and interacting before the mind becomes aware of it, but the mind can usurp the body's judgements and intervene upon its automatic reactions - interactions.
We call this 'will power', or cultivation, training, etc.
Civilization is a product of an organism's - in this case homo sapient - self-cultivation, or reprogramming, or interventions upon its genetically evolved and inherited automated reactions, impulses, etc. - consciousness intervening upon unconsciousness.


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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Need/Suffering is the source of choice; need/suffering is the experienced of existing, i.e., interaction experienced, either consciously or subconsciously; need/suffering is temporal attrition, change stressing the organism - agon.
For the non-living, the non-conscious, there is only interaction, with no need or suffering.
Suffering is need left unsatisfied over time.
To choose is to express need.
To will is to express a need for what is lacking or to maintain what is uncertain or that which requires constant replenishing and reaffirming.

There are two types of suffering, one born of need (body), and one born of excess (mind); the former making the latter possible, but not certain; the former named 'need' and the latter named 'desire'.
Mind has always been associated with god, since Abrahamism dominated western tribes, and for this reason this one-god has been associated with the brain's excesses and its freedom from natural laws that bind the body. But even those who associate it thusly intuitively sense the mind's dependence on the body, and so have ceased to believe in 'free-will'....in any absolute form, going as far as to dismiss it competently, intuitively sensing the minds dependence and conditioning to the body; mistaking the bodies automatic  and independent choices and reactions as belonging to another; mistaking the bodies limitations imposed upon mind, as divine in origin; mistaking the body's order, for a universal one.

Choice is always driven by need/desire: one born of lack, needing to replenish itself continuously, the other born of excess needing to expunge itself, ephemerally and only if the former successfully accumulates more than it requires.
Eros is born of Ananke.

Power is a measure of the individual's ability to satiate needs and to accumulate excesses, directing them towards objectives to expunge them.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySat Nov 23, 2019 5:31 pm

A natural product of need/desire is that accumulated energies must be expunged quickly, towards organic maintenance, growth and/or reproduction, because if these energies are not directed effectively they are lost to the constant attrition of interactivity - lost in time.
For this reason, life has evolved mechanisms to quickly take advantage of the accumulated energies produced by need, making desire a impulse that requires immediate relief.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySat Nov 23, 2019 7:55 pm



An example of the body's automatic reactions that does not require the participation of the brain.
A primitive, plant-like, judgement call, followed by a choice expressed as an action.

I've used another, more crude example that is better.
A male, born and raised to consider certain sexual practices immoral, or bad - such as paedophilia, adultery, lusting over another man's wife etc. - and entirely committed to cultural and social conventions, will get an erection when in the presence of an attractive female - perhaps of an age which has been established, by spiritual or secular law, as being immature, or under-aged.
An example of how the body's judgements, via the more primitive parts of the brain, may override the lucid, frontal cortex, or may respond to stimuli before the lucid mind has a chance to gain control over its own body's reactions.
As if he were possessed by the devil himself, or some external will were in control... it may claim 'innocence', because will is placed in the lucid part of the organism....the ego.
This is where guilt and shame resides....and nowhere else, because only here does the gene come in contact with the meme.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 27, 2020 8:37 am



Marxism believes the coming of the utopian socialist ideal is not only probable and predictable, but unavoidable, because they do not believe in man's free-will - in fact they detest it.
Freedom, as it exists, is detrimental to its ideal society - it is the very source of the the "evils" of Capitalism.
This is why it failed to realize its own ideal society and to predict its emergence.
Early on, based no their hard determinism - another connector to Abrahamism - they predicted that the rise of the proletariat masses was inevitable - preordained, as it were.
This is the source of the Marxist's naivete.
later they adjusted their formula speculating that the proletariat cannot rise spontaneously but must be made to rise up in rebellion by the intelligentsia - the select few gifted leaders.
Already we see the emergence of a hierarchy imitating Capitalism's wealth based hierarchies.

They could not account for human nature because in their deterministic minds order can be entirely predicted - order implies a pattern that would make it predictable.  
But human nature, a product of nature, is not entirely a product of order, but also of chaos, and this is, as the architect in the movie The Matrix called 'an anomaly', as he - it - attempted to explain why his programming matrices constantly failed.



To put it in my lingo:
Past is determined - partly by the choices of those who participated in it - and to the degree that they did so.
Present - presence - is fluid - it is existence being experienced, and it is here where the future is being determined, in relation to the past, by wilful agencies, such as living organisms.  
Non-living existence has no will and so must follow entirely from the past - either as order (patterned energies: repeating consistency - predictable), or as chaos (non-patterened energies: inconsistent, un-repeating, unpredictable)
Within Abrahamic and later Marxist contexts, the former is the ideal of god, or absolute order, and the latter is the concept of Satan, the trickster, or absolute chaos.

Intent is the point where the past is given direction - a focus - in the present, determining the future not only by the act itself but by the collateral effects, which remain unpredictable.  

The "anomaly" is chaos. The idea of absolute order is a secular form of the Abrahamic one-god - nihilistic in that a singularity negates/nullifies the experience of multiplicity.
A conflict between the idea (ideal) of oneness and the experience of nil - as it pertains to our human conceptions of an absolute, referring to our mental abstractions.  
The experienced world deny us the existence of our own ideas if and when these are presumed as being absolute truths, i.e., immutable, indivisible, complete....perfect.
It is this notion of 'perfection' which man obsesses over, and leads him astray.
Determinism implies that there is no 'bad', or 'wrong', or 'evil' - within an Abrahamic world-view - but that all that exists is in accordance to the will of god, or universal order.
world must be stoically endured, because we have no choice in the matter.
The idea absolves all responsibility from all actions - it is the salvation myth given a modern upgrade.
It secretly hides faith that all that exists and occurs happens for a reason no man can know or resist. The secret is in the conviction that what is determined is benevolent - has no motive, or if it does that this motive is always good - always an expression of perfection.
Human pain and suffering finds an external agency to rationalize its own condition - now to be tolerated and endured, awaiting the inevitable end.
But chaos indicates that the evolution of the brain, and of conciousness, is to deal with what is not entirely predictable - an organ naturally selection to deal with the unforeseeable.
Most of this reactivity is automated, giving the impression that the lucid mind, the individual identifies with, is innocent of its own behaviour - or the choices it has already made subconsciously (impulsively) and in accordance to tried and tested methods - determined in the past.
In post-modern and nihilistic ideologies the rejection of past means the individual does not identify with what is no longer present and still fluid and flexible. It refuses to identify with the body as the past made present, imposing a limitation to the mind's options.

We have a dualistic conflict between two absolutist world-views - one using absolute order to replace god - believing itself enlightened or as progressing beyond the anthropomorphic childishness of the past - and the other using absolute chaos to reject all contingencies, liberating itself from past, and sometimes even from the present.
One identifies as a negation of the other - creating the bi-polar binary nihilism of today - positive and pure nihilists.
Reality, as always, is what occurs in between human abstractions - in between the one and the nil.

As always....words representing human ideas can be defined out of existence, or in a way that makes experienced existence "illusory" or to negate it altogether.
The mind's defensive utility, helping the organism cope with its emerging and growing self-awareness.
Religion is the opiate of the people - requiring self-numbing to cope with their own inability to accept such juxtapositions.
Liberated from its original utility, intelligence becomes detrimental to fitness, to the degree to which it cannot be channelled to deal with challenges, and stressors, forcing it to turn inward to escape ennui.
Schopenhauer, Arthur wrote:
The two enemies of human happiness are pain and boredom.

Man uses pleasure to deal with both - pleasure = nullification of need/suffering; pleasure = nullification of desire.
The first a product of absence - temporal attrition, absent absolute - the second a by-product of the first, producing excess, that requires expunging.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 16, 2021 9:27 am

Choice is the expression of a judgement - subjective perspective, intent.
The consequences, juxtaposed with the projected expectations, are what reveal its quality.

Failure to adjust and retry perpetuates the errors in the subjective perspective and all judgements based on them, expressed linguistically or behaviourally as willful actions, i.e. choices.

Judgements can be experiential or genetically based.
Experientially founded judgements can usurp genetically based judgements.
Experientially based judgements can be first-hand (personal) or second-hand (learned).

Second-hand (learned) judgments can be theoretical or observational.
Observational judgements require empathy - projection of self in another's circumstances.
The quality of this projection determines its accuracy.
The easiest kinds are sympathetic (popular) and antipathetic (conditional).
Both corrupt the accuracy, towards the positive or the negative. Sympathetic subjectivity is more popular because it is easier and feeds into the mind's need to belong and to convert an unknown threat into something intimate and benevolent, i.e., attractive. Maintaining or decreasing distance between I and other permits the mind to reassess and adjust, whereas antipathy repulses, increasing distances which make re-assement of judgements less probable.
Advancing out of this duality is a movement towards objectivity and away from subjectivity.
this movement alters the movement/motive from survival (preservation) toward indifferent (knowledge and understanding for its own sake) - movement form organism towards divinity. Such an approach is detrimental to the organism, stressing and challenging its psychosomatic endurance.

The established method of scientific methodology uses multiple subjective agencies to filter out sympathy/antipathy, purifying empathy - objectifying the subjective - eliminating emotional, instinctive, impulsive, egotistical corruptions so as to produce objective judgements.
Objectifying the subjective goes through art, or language. The internal is externalized so as to then be analyzed and evaluated by other subjective minds.
Art – language, words/symbols – is the medium through which the subjective mind’s judgements are made into an object all can appreciate, evaluating its qualities in relation to their own, and all in relation to a shared world.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 16, 2021 12:22 pm

A pack of wolves chase a deer through the forest.

The deer dodges left, right, left, straight, right, right, left. The wolves frantically follow, with the faster and more agile trying to flank and close-in from the sides. Who will live, who will survive? Will the deer escape, and the wolves go hungry? Or will they catch and kill, to fill their stomachs? Every choice is a matter of Survival. Thus 'Choice' is ingrained in the very fabric of life. The 'Consequence' of choice is obvious, in Nature. It is only in an Abundant, Artificial, Manmade environment that choice becomes divorced and separated from its roots: forgotten. Man forgets the choices that made him possible, make him possible now, and will ensure his survival tomorrow.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 16, 2021 5:38 pm

Choice is a double-edged blade.
Every dark cloud has a silver lining - all know that, and in times of darkness recall it with hope, but few, in their hour of joy, dare to bring to mind that every silver cloud has a dark lining.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 19, 2021 9:40 am

Choices and the judgements they are founded upon suddenly reduce in number when the consequences are immediate and not collectively shared.
Suddenly the mind's sobriety no longer considers infantile possibilities but is streamlined by care, by fear, to focus exclusively on probabilities. Indiscriminate inclusivity cultivates and is enhanced by infantilism. Ananke, primordial goddess of necessity, rules supreme.
Where there is no need there is no care – ennui rises as stress subsides – discipline, respect, diminishes and is replaced by cynicism and a reversion to a state of careless, explorative, experimental childishness. The "what if?" taking over from the "what is". Parent is replaced by a collective will, abstracted as a concept, an idea – the many names of the Abrahamic one-god. Under this shelter the mind begins to consider the implausible options it can never choose, but can only consider, explaining why it is thusly restricted by accusing the parental entity of limiting it developing awareness. Absurdity exposes it to forbidden fruits it can only imagine tasting, if only it were not unjustly restricted. Its untested judgement, if it dares, will discover its own limitations. Childhood fantasies lead to juvenile repercussions. A bruised ego will find a way of explaining why childhood fantasies failed to materialize.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 23, 2021 10:19 am



They know what the "problem is"...do you?
They want to deal with "the problem" by brainwashing you that it is all an illusion, there is no choice, never has been, never will be.
Slavery begins in the mind, convincing it that it is already free or that there is no freedom.
Either/Or - positive/pure nihilism.
There is no problem, or there is no choice.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyTue Nov 23, 2021 10:33 am



They know choice....choice is in their self-identification.
They know that too much choice is almost as bad as no choice at all.
They know that too much choice can also enslave you.

Choice expressing judgement disconnected from reality.
Choice of the unrealizable, the irrational.
When the ego has lost its self-trust, its self-esteem, choice becomes a burden for it. Such a fragile, vulnerable, insecure ego wants the choice to be made for it, it wants to part in the responsibility of the outcomes.

Feminine ego - it wants to feel that it has been chosen, when it is the one doing the choosing.
Ask any woman and she will claim that it was the man who made the "first move" when it was her....always her.
To be "chosen" unburdens and flatters the ego. Innocence is maintained, no matter what happens afterward.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 14, 2022 11:23 am

Skinner, B.F. wrote:
The consequences of an act affect the probability of its occurring again.
Even if an intervening agency chooses to mitigate and adjust the consequences upon the original acting agency.
Human intervention cannot negate the consequences, but can only absorb and disseminate them within a collective of willing and unwilling participants, attempting to reduce their negative impacts or their positive benefits.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 28, 2022 9:38 pm

The only definition of free-will I will accept is one beginning from the observed.
Choice.
Others can ascribe to it invisible causes, and mystical agencies, but choice remains the observable experience of will. They may claim that no mater what they've chosen that it was inevitable, that it could not have been otherwise, they can use any excuse they can come up with but this does not change the fact that their choices determine their future options, necessitating another determining choice based on an evaluation of these determined options.
A causal sequence not requiring consciousness. It has been goin on for millions of years before brains evolved - a causal chain with a participating evaluation and choice, differentiating the living from the non-living.

First, there was the act, then the body, before the brain manifested mind, that used vocalizations, then words/ an d then symbols to direct/focus consciousness, and then self-consciousness as the most recent effect of these causal chains.
Mind came much later, after thousands of years of judgments and choices were made through trial and error.
Mind was the end result of this trial and error made more efficient, and therefore more effective.
Natural selection was sharpened by judgment and choice - choice meaning selection.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySat Jan 29, 2022 9:30 am

Sartre, Jean-Paul wrote:
Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. It is up to you to give life a meaning.
Sartre takes Heidegger’s “throwness” and Dasein, and expands it to include what happens after what has been determined, has been determined for you, and includes an individual’s subsequent agency; including man’s choices beginning immediately after birth – when the choices made, i.e., causes, are inherited effects become our own responsibility. This is made clear with this quote, accurately defining freedom as the tangible act of choice based on interactive judgements:
Sartre, Jean-Paul wrote:
Freedom is what we do with what is done to us.
Man is thrown into existence – awakens to existence without his consent – and then inherits all the choices made before this event – inheriting the consequences as determinants – but then he adjusts them with his own choices.
Even refusing to make a choice is a choice. Man has no option to cease living by the consequences of his judgements and choices – to be alive is to be willful, to have an objective. Life is will movement towards an objective; throwness is this momentum/movement towards or away, i.e., attraction/repulsion is interaction.
To exist is to interact. Will is the direction of this interaction, i.e., choice, and choice is an expression of the will’s degree of freedom – power being the amount of options an individual is aware of and can access, can choose: omnipotence being a theoretical state of infinite options all being accessible.
Sartre expresses the harsh truth that once previous choices manifest in being then being participates in the determination of its own becoming, its own fate, and the degree to which it does so, or can do so, is a measure of its freedom and power.
Freedom ceases to be a theoretical concept, an abstraction, but is identified as a perceptible, experienced action, the action of choice. There is no intangible, abstract, divine agency, the only agency identified is perceptible, perceived as existent, as interactive.

But then Sartre takes it too far, as a true Marxist.
Sartre, Jean-Paul wrote:
He was free, free in every way, free to behave like a fool or a machine, free to accept, free to refuse, free to equivocate; to marry, to give up the game, to drag this death weight about with him for years to come.
Man is not omnipotent, his choice, i.e., freedom, power, has limitations.
This delusion is what lead is to Postmodernity, the idea that man can create himself from nothing; the idea that man is creator god.
Man's freedom has its limits, determined by his power; he is neither aware of all options - omniscient - nor able to choose from all the options he becomes aware of, all options revealed to him - omnipotent. Man has as much freedom as is revealed by the quantity and quality of his choices.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySat Jan 29, 2022 10:05 am

To exist is to be dynamic to interact, i.e., attract/repel. Action is existence. What is not active is non-existent.
The existence of will is proved by its actions, viz., its inconspicuous judgements and its conspicuous choices. Choice is not theoretical it is experienced, and so it exists. Any restriction to choice has to also be proven to exist as an action; any negation of choice must also prove to exist via actions – theoretical nullifications only apply to theoretical concepts, i.e., concepts that cannot be applied and must remain abstractions.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptySat Jan 29, 2022 10:14 am

Nietzsche, Friedrich wrote:
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Power being a product of imposing one's will upon reality - not only willful agencies, like living beings, but imposing one's will upon non-willful, non-living energies.
Truth is proven by this ability to impose one's will upon the non-living, for the living are more easily swayed by lies than by truths.
An interpretation can only prevail among those that interpret existence, and that suffer the consequences of this interpretation, the living, not what does not interpret but only interacts - the non-living.
For non-living energies there is no truth, no lies, no good no bad, no moral immoral, there just is interaction flowing along the paths-of-least-resistance, with no intent, no will, no objective.
It is only for the living, who have intent, that the idea of truth and falsehood is crucial, and for them a lie that proves to be effective is better than a truth that proves to be ineffective or detrimental for the attainment of the objective.
Truth/False indicating degree of resistance, and the degree an individual can endure.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 10:10 am

Moving away from Abrahamism's logos obsessions, transcending its nihilistic dis-ease paradigms supporting their anti-nature dogmas we must move towards the action, the perceptible, experienced actions; we must, more precisely, return back to what we’ve been detached from and recall what we’ve forgotten.
Going beyond the concepts of "will" and more so the concept of "free", both of which have been corrupted by centuries of nihilistic philosophical baggage, and focusing on the perceptible act of choice is the first step towards our awakening from the slumber we’ve given into.
Choice is how the "will" is expressed and exposed, and its "freedom" is evaluated by the quality and quantity of options it can choose from; choice is bringing the abstracted and corrupted concept of free-will down to their tangible, down to earth roots.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 3:21 pm

Choice is not theoretical it is an empirical display of free-will.
It has an intent, a focus, a judgment expressed in a observable choice.
No invisible forces, to concealed motives, no magical agencies determining it from the beyond, the occult, the magical realm.

Choice is about probability determined by need, desire, want, and dynamic circumstances.

Choice is not only a experienced disapply of free-will but it empirically clarifies both what 'will' and what 'free' means.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 8:08 pm

Could I have chosen to be other than what I am?
This question suffers from the Abrahamic dualism of mind/body, of essence and presence.
I AM my appearance.
I could not have chosen not to be myself, for to be born is to have a choice and not before or after.

Choice IS an expression of myself, it is not something I do, other than myself, it IS myself.
And with every choice I determine what I will become, what I will make of what I was born as.

Society is not born out of nowhere and nothing, either.
It is part of a continuum, not separate from nature, but an extension of it; an extensions that conceals its foundations, its past, its origins in the past like clothes conceal the body.
Body is past made present.
Dressing it up doesn't change it, nor does it alter it.
Memetics are such garments draped over genetics.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2022 1:50 am

Quote :
Body is past made present.

Consciousness is an effect of the body. Consciousness performs choice. There is a stream of processes and the act of choice is downstream of past processes.
If a choice is dependent on/effect of a continuum you could say that it embodies that continuum, in so much that it is the ongoing and continuing manifestation of that continuum. So, your individual past, the life that you have lead, contributes to your choices. And also the lives of every human you are descended from. And all that you and they experienced. All that multitude converged into us, like the roots of a tree converging into the trunk. It's not only you the individual making a choice it's the entirety of your past too. Your will to power walks with the feet of all your ancestors. It's a responsibility. An inheritance. Something that we borrow from our children, like Varg says.
Maybe that's too up my own ass but it's what I've been thinking the last few years.
I think people look at free will/determinism in a false dichotomy fashion. Either you can do as you like, which amounts to something from nothing because any reason or impulse you could have could be interpreted as deterministic so any choice is essentially arbitrary OR you exist as this slave to past processes, this determined thing that can only watch as it's body acts out the actions that the past, the other, has decided for it.

Both are disconnected from reality and imply a sort of soul; either one that can create valid choices out of nothing or the enslaved spectator. Neither identify the self with the process of events. It's a sort of compatibilism I suppose.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2022 3:56 am

apaosha wrote:
Consciousness is an effect of the body. Consciousness performs choice.
No.

The body performs Choice. Then the mind becomes Conscious of that choice after it was made.

Consciousness is the Effect of both.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2022 6:23 am

Yes...a plant wills, makes choices and has no nervous system, nor a brain/mind.
But it remains within the costly natural selection method of trial/error.

Minds make the process more efficient, and with practice more effective.
Mind imposes itself upon the body either to focus its energies or to supress them.
"Choice" is what the mind calls the body's objectives, its direction. It can then intervene attempting to control this continuous movement.
Mind multiplies the body's energies by focusing them, or tries to control them by supressing them.

So, we can have mind/body dissonance where the mind's objectives attempt to usurp those of the body; instead of working with, in harmony, with the body it works in opposition.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2022 9:57 am

Made me think of this -
Nervous system, nerve cells are specialized cells to enable fast communications (and in more complex organisms the processing) of signals coming from all kinds of cells within the organism.
Just because specialized communication (nerve) cells are not present in an organism doesn't mean that communication and some form of aggregate processing isn't taking place among the cells within an organism.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice Choice - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2022 10:11 am



Judgement, express as choice, happens without any brains required.
brains evolve to deal with the choice made, or to alter, supress change, or streamline the judgment that produces a choice.
Tolkien integrated this into his Lord of the Rings lore.



The brain becomes aware of the body's judgement and choices, after-the-fact.
It can then train itself to change these automated judgements and choices, with great investments in effort and time.
See martial arts.

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