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 The Rise and Fall of Cultures.

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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 04, 2021 11:01 am

NoMindInMyMind wrote:
Kulturland = Gotland ?
Maybe GoatLand.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm

My username, my indication of my location, my avatar and my signature are supposed to point out that there is something which is becoming rarer and rarer, because it has become civilization, i.e. degenerated culture, but that should be striven for all the more as a non-degenerate form, if that is at all possible and not simply a fateful development, something which is hardly becoming, but has almost only become.

Cultures exist almost only as a degenerated or fossilized, frozen, senile forms. The English language bears witness to this. In English, when culture is spoken of, the word „civilization“ is usually used, thus admitted that culture has become a degenerated, fossilized, frozen, senile form.

The word "Kultur" is meant to indicate this, and that is why it is not written in English, because among all occidental languages, English is the most degenerated language - no wonder, it has become the world's "lingua franca".

Whether one tries to explain for cultural degeneration with fate or certain memes, it remains pretty much the same. What we should be thinking about, in my opinion, concerns two questions:
1) How can we shape the cultural decline (degeneration) in such a way that we can bear it to some extent?
2) Will a new culture (according to Spengler, it would be the ninth) come?

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 04, 2021 6:56 pm

Kultur wrote:
My username, my indication of my location, my avatar and my signature are supposed to point out that there is something which is becoming rarer and rarer, because it has become civilization, i.e. degenerated culture, but that should be striven for all the more as a non-degenerate form, if that is at all possible and not simply a fateful development, something which is hardly becoming, but has almost only become.
It's an indication of the power of social engineering and propaganda, in the post-war era.
The victors "write the history books" - official narrative - and then may criminalize all alternate narratives that challenge it.  

Kultur wrote:
Cultures exist almost only as a degenerated or fossilized, frozen, senile forms. The English language bears witness to this. In English, when culture is spoken of, the word „civilization“ is usually used, thus admitted that culture has become a degenerated, fossilized, frozen, senile form.
Yes, cultivating multiple interpretations and variants of it called "civilizations".

Kultur wrote:
The word "Kultur" is meant to indicate this, and that is why it is not written in English, because among all occidental languages, English is the most degenerated language - no wonder, it has become the world's "lingua franca".
Agreed.
And it is rooted in a interpretation of Latin which also bastardized the Hellenic original.
Much is lost in translation, just as genius does not birth geniuses.

Kultur wrote:
Whether one tries to explain for cultural degeneration with fate or certain memes, it remains pretty much the same. What we should be thinking about, in my opinion, concerns two questions:
1) How can we shape the cultural decline (degeneration) in such a way that we can bear it to some extent?
Yes, and I've given my own opinion in the form of a pop-cultural allegory in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I've already described how and why "zombification occurs" and how it spreads and what it means, so the allegory is relevant.
How would you survive, dear friend, a zombie apocalypse, if it were real?
In my contexts it is real, though it is not as it is artistically displayed in movies and television but it is displayed in everyday use of language, exposing a gradual dumbind-down and disconnection from empirical reality and the past.
A linguistically transmittable dis-ease can only find a "vaccine" in linguistics.
I've offered my opinion in this regard, as well, by indicating that the best medicine is not interventional but preventative, and that once disease has taken hold of an organism then time is of the essence.

The psychosomatic symptomology has been written years ago [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] along with the causes....though some details have been revised.
This is a falsifiable mental disorder, which is witnessed everyday in its extreme manifestations as gender dysphoria.  

Kultur wrote:
2) Will a new culture (according to Spengler, it would be the ninth) come?
Given what you've said thus far I cannot believe this would be in doubt.
Everything, including superorganism founded on memes - organism are founded on genes - go in cycles.
Every variant is never absolutely the same as the previous - due to chaos, producing mutations/corruptions, and the determining effects of free-will.
What is in doubt is if the Indo-Euroepan race will survive another near-extiction event, as it did at least twice before? - this is in question particularly for the European branch, and less so for the Indo branch, and the reasons is the effects of a parasitical meme that has infested European man. Does Europe still have the autoimmune virility to fight off this infestation and return to its origins?
This is in doubt.
Here, the zombie narrative returns. What would people that have become immune to this parasitical disease that causes zombification do?
How?
I would think that the first thing a man finding himself in such a situation would think to do is find others who, like him, have evaded the viral disease that causes zombification.
This forum is a - let's say - commune of the uninfected.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 04, 2021 8:24 pm



Order - in the absolute - and any talk about occult codes underlying existence, expresses a deep resentiment, or insecurity with existence and tis fluctuating and lack of absolutes - absolute certainties, requiring dynamic real-time evaluations and reactions, i.e., judgments and choices.
This alone explains a defiant rejection of any degree of free-will, and human agency and this obsession with absolute oneness - in all tis forms, from the Abrahamic one-god, conveniently concealed in illusory multiplicities, or in the concept of a universe, implying the same as the previous but using modern techno-jargon to pretend that it has overcome it.
An obsession with whatever hints at self-absolution immediately becomes popular in a species where self-cosnciuosnes is a relatively new advancement in consciousness.
The ego is willing to sacrifice anything just to preserve its "innocence", or to return to tis primal state - manimals. - where all that mattered could be discerned by the simple but effective pain/pleasure binary.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 05, 2021 7:34 pm



Reflected in the Ionian spirit of Athens versus the Doric spirit of the Spartans.



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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 05, 2021 7:47 pm

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
My username, my indication of my location, my avatar and my signature are supposed to point out that there is something which is becoming rarer and rarer, because it has become civilization, i.e. degenerated culture, but that should be striven for all the more as a non-degenerate form, if that is at all possible and not simply a fateful development, something which is hardly becoming, but has almost only become.
It's an indication of the power of social engineering and propaganda, in the post-war era.
The victors "write the history books" - official narrative - and then may criminalize all alternate narratives that challenge it.  

Kultur wrote:
Cultures exist almost only as a degenerated or fossilized, frozen, senile forms. The English language bears witness to this. In English, when culture is spoken of, the word „civilization“ is usually used, thus admitted that culture has become a degenerated, fossilized, frozen, senile form.
Yes, cultivating multiple interpretations and variants of it called "civilizations".

Kultur wrote:
The word "Kultur" is meant to indicate this, and that is why it is not written in English, because among all occidental languages, English is the most degenerated language - no wonder, it has become the world's "lingua franca".
Agreed.
And it is rooted in a interpretation of Latin which also bastardized the Hellenic original.
Much is lost in translation, just as genius does not birth geniuses.

Kultur wrote:
Whether one tries to explain for cultural degeneration with fate or certain memes, it remains pretty much the same. What we should be thinking about, in my opinion, concerns two questions:
1) How can we shape the cultural decline (degeneration) in such a way that we can bear it to some extent?
Yes, and I've given my own opinion in the form of a pop-cultural allegory in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I've already described how and why "zombification occurs" and how it spreads and what it means, so the allegory is relevant.
How would you survive, dear friend, a zombie apocalypse, if it were real?
In my contexts it is real, though it is not as it is artistically displayed in movies and television but it is displayed in everyday use of language, exposing a gradual dumbind-down and disconnection form empirical reality and the past.
A linguistically transmittable dis-ease can only find a "vaccine" in linguistics.
I've offered my opinion in this regard, as well, by indicating that the best medicine is not interventional but preventative, and that once disease has taken hold of an organism then time is of the essence.

The psychosomatic symptomology has been written years ago [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] along with the causes....though some details have been revised.
This is a falsifiable mental disorder, which is witnessed everyday in its extreme manifestations as gender dysphoria.  

Kultur wrote:
2) Will a new culture (according to Spengler, it would be the ninth) come?
Given what you've said thus far I cannot believe this would be in doubt.
Everything, including superorganism founded on memes - organism are founded on genes - go in cycles.
Every variant is never absolutely the same as the previous - due to chaos, producing mutations/corruptions, and the determining effects of free-will.
What is in doubt is if the Indo-Euroepan race will survive another near-extiction event, as it did at least twice before? - this is in question particularly for the European branch, and less so for the Indo branch, and the reasons is the effects of a parasitical meme that has infested European man. Does Europe still have the autoimmune virility to fight off this infestation and return to tis origins?
This is in doubt.
Here, the zombie narrative returns. What would people that have become immune to this parasitical disease that causes zombification do?
How?
I would think that the first thing a man finding himself in such a situation would think to do is find others who, like him, have evaded the disease that creates zombification.
This forum is a - let's say - commune of the uninfected.
A good comment. Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:19 pm

I know Spengler's books so well that I sometimes think I would have written them myself. But the English version of Spengler's texts is a little different. Through the translation, some things are neglected or exaggerated, some things are even misrepresented. This can be due to the translation itself, to the translator, or to a translation problem in general.

The German word "Kultur" should not have been translated into English in Spengler's case. The word "civilisation" is often used in English when "culture" or more properly "Kultur" should be said. The words "civilisation" and "Zivilisation", the words "civilisation" and "Kultur" and the words "culture" and "Kultur" are not exactly congruent either. Unfortunately, the German linguistic practice after World War II, more precisely since "1968", even more precisely since 1989/'90 (fall of the Berlin Wall) has adapted a bit to the English linguistic practice, so that the translation problem is not as important today as it was in Spengler's time. But nevertheless the difference is still there, as the following diagram shows:
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:28 pm

How would you define the terms?
Capture the Spenglerean essence of it.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:30 pm

I don't agree with every word Spengler wrote, but I would say that he is the philosopher I agree with the most. If one can also understand Goethe as a philosopher - and one can, as Spengler also thought -, then Goethe is the one I agree with the second most. He is followed by the philosophers Hegel, Heidegger, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, N. Hartmann, N. Luhmann (supposedly more of a "sociologist") and last but not least Sloterdijk. Now you can classify me philosophically a little bit.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:34 pm

@ Satyr (the films you posted).

"Asimov's vision is absolutely horrific", said the man with the Eastern European accent. I agree with that.

I have a few small things to correct on the 2nd film. However, they are not so important from a philosophical point of view.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:38 pm

Satyr wrote:
How would you define the terms?
Capture the Spenglerean essence of it.  
Which terms do you mean? The terms "Kultur", "culture", "Zivilisation", "civilisation"?
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:42 pm

I agree with Schopenhauer the most, in metaphysics, with Heidegger next. Don't agree with Schopenhauer's solution.
Goethe I haven't read, but gleaned what he thought from what others have said about him.
Haven't read N.Hartmann nor N. Luhmann.

Nietzsche is a fantastic psychoanalysts and prose writer but offers nothing new in metaphysics that I cannot find in Hinduism and Schopenhauer - his solution was more heroic.
Evola is next on the list with none of Nietzsche's romanticism that makes him so seductive to effete males.

Spengler is a fantastic socio-metaphysician, connecting the physical with the metaphysical.

Heraclitus is my favourite of the Greeks.

Sloterdijk is my favourite from the living. I haven't read as much as I should from him.
Baudrillard is also good if you want to understand postmodernisms and how it corrupts.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 06, 2021 7:44 pm

Kultur wrote:
Satyr wrote:
How would you define the terms?
Capture the Spenglerean essence of it.  
Which terms do you mean? The terms "Kultur", "culture", "Zivilisation", "civilisation"?

Translate in your own words how you've understood the Spengler text in the original German....especially "Zivilisation" and "Kultur".
I know that English fails to completely carry the meaning of Greek terminology, so I suspect it is also so for German.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 07, 2021 2:41 pm

In German, "Zivilisation" is on the one hand the hyponym to the hyperonym "Kultur", but on the other hand can also be congruent with "Kultur" sometimes, i.e. both can sometimes also be synonyms depending on the text and context.

In English, "civilisation" ("civilization") is on the one hand congruent with the German word "Zivilisation", on the other hand partly congruent with the German word "Kultur".

Moreover, "Kultur" still has meanings in German that do not exist at all in the English word "culture", just because the civilisation (Zivilisation) has destroyed more in English speaking societies.

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If two different nations, which are closely related to each other, have different opinions about Kultur/culture and Zivilisation/civilisation or even about Kultur and culture, sometimes also about Zivilisation and civilisation, because already the meanings of these words are not congruent, then this is even more true for two different Kulturen/cultures or Zivilisationen/civilisations. The linguistic differences between the peoples are like different accents of a (universal) language, a language family etc., where each language, so to speak, acts similarly to a "net" thrown over reality (in the different linguistic communities the meshes of this net are not of the same size and do not run everywhere in the same way); and even finer differences, fine-tunings, so to speak, e.g. dialects (geo[graphic-]linguistic), sociolects (sociolinguistic), even idiolects ([ego-]idiolinguistic).

I have already indicated in the opening post how Spengler understands Kulturen (plural form of "Kultur"). For Spengler, Kulturen are "living units", and these "living units" live their cycle like other living beings, "real living beings" (creatures), as the colloquial language would say. Spengler understands cultures (Kulturen) in such a way, as I said it above: as an umbrella term, as "hyperonomy" or "superordination", as the linguists say. From Spengler's (and also my) point of view, Zivilization is the downfall of a Kultur, its unfruitfulness (childlessness, infertility), its nihilism, its decadence. The Kultur does not become something completely different when it becomes Zivilization. It remains the same, but just becomes its Weltstädte (World cities, cosmopolitan cities), its own form of unfruitfulness (childlessness, infertility), nihilism, decadence, its downfall, its decline, its decay, its senility, its dementia.

The "Zvilization of a Kultur" can also be called the "winter of a Kultur". I myself call the "Zvilization of a Kultur" both the "autumn (fall) of a Kultur" and the "winter of a Kultur". This is because I have a different time frame than Spengler, to whom "Zivilisation" is "Winter" only. But that is not what you have asked for.

According to Spengler, a Kultur is an organism in the sense of Goethe's morphology. Consequently, the subtitle of Spengler's main work is called "Umrisse einer Morphologie der Weltgeschichte" ("Outlines of a Morphology of World History"). In the first volume of his main work, Spengler still conceived Kulturen (cultures) as monads, which means that he assumed that Kulturen (cultures) can't understand each other. In the second volume of his main work he relativized this monadological concept a little bit.

Not to be separated from a culture is its Ursymbol ("primal symbol") and its Seelenbild ("soul image"), both of which are coupled to the landscape surrounding the culture, because, according to Spengler, the experience of spatial depth is decisive:
    "The fate-directed life appears, as soon as we awake, in the sense life as felt depth. Everything stretches, but it is not yet 'the space', nothing solidified in itself, but a constant stretching from the moved here to the moved there. The experience of the world is exclusively linked to the essence of depth - of distance - whose pull in the abstract system of mathematics is called 'third dimension' besides length and width. .... The experience of depth is - on this insight everything else depends - a completely involuntary and necessary as well as completely creative act, through which the I receives its world, I would like to say dictated to it."
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 217-218 (translated by me).
    "The depth experience stretches the sensation to the world. The being directed of the life was called with meaning as non-reversibility and a rest of this decisive characteristic of the time lies in the compulsion to be able to feel also the depth of the world always from itself, never from the horizon to itself. The moving body of all animals and of man is designed towards this direction. One moves 'forward'- towards the future, approaching with every step not only the goal, but also the age - and feels every look backward also as the look at something past, already ordered to the history."
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 223-224 (translated by me).

Without landscape, without depth experience, without primal symbol, without soul image, without relative selfhood (selfreference), without a breed as cultivation, as culture (!), Kultur in Spengler's sense is not understandable.

The English word "civilization" never means the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense, but denotes only a part of it, its final stage, which may or may not be subdivided again into sub-stages, if one wishes.

The English word "culture" for the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense can be problematic too. One has to know what Spengler meant by "Kultur".

When I used to ask a person whose first language was English what he/she understood by "culture", I often only got to hear: "education" in the sense of "teaching/learning", "schooling", most especially "art". But this is too Little for a speaker with German as first language. Although the old understanding of the German "Kultur" is also disappearing more and more in the public, it is still completely understandable to the most, even almost self-evident.

If one means the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense, one should not use the English word "civilisation" ("civilization"). Also the English word "culture", as I already said, does not exactly denote what the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense denotes.
__________

By the way:
There is another translation problem with the word "Prussianism". The English translation for "Preußentum" is almost always "Prussianism", but this is the false translation. The right translation is "Prussiandom" or "Prussianity". Spengler just did not mean an "ism" when he spoke of "Preußentum".
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 07, 2021 4:05 pm

Kultur wrote:
If two different nations, which are closely related to each other, have different opinions about Kultur/culture and Zivilisation/civilisation or even about Kultur and culture, sometimes also about Zivilisation and civilisation, because already the meanings of these words are not congruent, then this is even more true for two different Kulturen/cultures or Zivilisationen/civilisations. The linguistic differences between the peoples are like different accents of a (universal) language, a language family etc., where each language, so to speak, acts similarly to a "net" thrown over reality (in the different linguistic communities the meshes of this net are not of the same size and do not run everywhere in the same way); and even finer differences, fine-tunings, so to speak, e.g. dialects (geo[graphic-]linguistic), sociolects (sociolinguistic), even idiolects ([ego-]idiolinguistic).
In my opinion such meaning differences can be dealt with by reconnecting symbols, such as words/numbers, to experienced reality - or noumena with phenomena - as a preliminary step to any discussion or debate - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
Shared reality acts as a limit to abstractions that can reach the absurd or fly off into romantic prose referring not to anything real but to ideals that are never shared but must be imposed, as each culture has its own.
Greek has no word for culture other than the one mores adopted from the Latin languages "κουλτουρα", for culture, and for civilization "πολιτισμος" which is etymologically rooted in the concept of urbanity and governance. The Greeks used "παιδεια" to refer to the habits and training a culture imposes upon a man to cultivate him into its ideal citizen in a civilization.

This obscurantism is what nihilism is all about.
We are currently moving into a phase where terms like "male/female" are being detached from a shared reality, converted to obscure metaphorical ideas/ideals that can mean anything because they are unrestricted by the tangible world - by natural order.
I call this "zombification" because it mirrors the state of suicidal detachment parasites produce in species infected by such organisms.
Zombification is a detachment from reality, form one's own original biological programming; hijacked by an external entity to act as a proxy for its own interests, e.g., survival, and propagation. Zombification in this context is linguistic, i.e., words that originally meant something self-evident, falsifiable and experienced, are gradually converted to meaningless nonsense, referring to esoteric, ideological abstractions that have no real world references.
So, in the spirit of "bringing it all back down to earth" all terms must be defined by reconnecting them to a shared experiential referent, to maintain dialogue, even if in disagreement, as rational and pragmatic as possible.

In this case our terms "culture" and "civilization" have been adequately connected to organic referents, mirrored by human socioeconomic relationships.

Kultur wrote:
I have already indicated in the opening post how Spengler understands Kulturen (plural form of "Kultur"). For Spengler, Kulturen are "living units", and these "living units" live their cycle like other living beings, "real living beings" (creatures), as the colloquial language would say. Spengler understands cultures (Kulturen) in such a way, as I said it above: as an umbrella term, as "hyperonomy" or "super organization", as the linguists say.
To put it in my linguistic context "culture" is to the Superorganism what "spirit" is to an organism, viz., the mind/body/nervous system expressed outwardly as actions/behaviours, attitude/demeanour, art/semiotics (including language).

Kultur wrote:
From Spengler's (and also my) point of view, Zivilization is the downfall of a Kultur, its unfruitfulness (childlessness, infertility), its nihilism, its decadence. The Kultur does not become something completely different when it becomes Zivilization. It remains the same, but just becomes its Weltstädte (World cities, cosmopolitan cities), its own form of unfruitfulness (childlessness, infertility), nihilism, decadence, its downfall, its decline, its decay, its senility, its dementia.
Therefore, we might say that "civilization" is the final phase of a culture - its highest achievement, displayed through urbanization, regimentation, sclerotic rigidity losing flexibility/adaptability - just as an organism when it grows old - cocooning itself in its own past; unable to respond efficiently to environmental changes.

Kultur wrote:
The "Zvilization of a Kultur" can also be called the "winter of a Kultur". I myself call the "Zvilization of a Kultur" both the "autumn (fall) of a Kultur" and the "winter of a Kultur". This is because I have a different time frame than Spengler, to whom "Zivilisation" is "Winter" only. But that is not what you have asked for.
Your opinion is more relevant because you are among the living - still dynamic - whereas Spengler's ideas have passed unto the realm of the determined from where they can only be recalled - re-membered.

Kultur wrote:
According to Spengler, a Kultur is an organism in the sense of Goethe's morphology. Consequently, the subtitle of Spengler's main work is called "Umrisse einer Morphologie der Weltgeschichte" ("Outlines of a Morphology of World History"). In the first volume of his main work, Spengler still conceived Kulturen (cultures) as monads, which means that he assumed that Kulturen (cultures) can't understand each other. In the second volume of his main work he relativized this monadological concept a little bit.
Cultures cannot "understand each other" only if they are trapped in their inter-subjectivity, and competitive fervour. As we can understand another, simpler species, even if it is to hunt and kill it, so too a superior civilization can empathize and even assimilate another's ways.
Inferior cultures cannot understand superior ones, no more than an ape can understand a human, nor itself more than a human can.
The "miracle of the Greeks" was a product of their sampling and openness - at least the Ionians were like this - able to maintain their core identity while entertaining the ideas, and beliefs, of inferior peoples - this is why they tolerated multiple gods and spiritual beliefs without trying to convert them - this is what became their philosophical brilliance.

Kultur wrote:
Not to be separated from a culture is its Ursymbol ("primal symbol") and its Seelenbild ("soul image"), both of which are coupled to the landscape surrounding the culture, because, according to Spengler, the experience of spatial depth is decisive:

    "The fate-directed life appears, as soon as we awake, in the sense life as felt depth. Everything stretches, but it is not yet 'the space', nothing solidified in itself, but a constant stretching from the moved here to the moved there. The experience of the world is exclusively linked to the essence of depth - of distance - whose pull in the abstract system of mathematics is called 'third dimension' besides length and width. .... The experience of depth is - on this insight everything else depends - a completely involuntary and necessary as well as completely creative act, through which the I receives its world, I would like to say dictated to it."

- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 217-218 (translated by me).

    "The depth experience stretches the sensation to the world. The being directed of the life was called with meaning as non-reversibility and a rest of this decisive characteristic of the time lies in the compulsion to be able to feel also the depth of the world always from itself, never from the horizon to itself. The moving body of all animals and of man is designed towards this direction. One moves 'forward'- towards the future, approaching with every step not only the goal, but also the age - and feels every look backward also as the look at something past, already ordered to the history."

- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 223-224 (translated by me).

Without landscape, without depth experience, without primal symbol, without soul image, without relative selfhood (selfreference), without a breed as cultivation, as culture (!), Kultur in Spengler's sense is not understandable.
Space being a defining characteristic of the "Faustian spirit" - "space" in the Heidegger sense of expanding possibilities, within which matter/energy is but an appreciation of probability, or heightened possibility.
Space in the context of a SuperOrganism - with a distinct culture is its spatio-temporal field of effect - its psychosomatic aura, i.e., a field of increased interactivity similar to that of a magnetic field cast by a solar mass - or in Nieatzchean terms its "will to power".
The DNA is to an organism what semiotics, i.e., art, language, is to a Superorganism - its genotype; civilization is the phenotype.

Kultur wrote:
The English word "civilization" never means the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense, but denotes only a part of it, its final stage, which may or may not be subdivided again into sub-stages, if one wishes.
Just as the English word "truth" - from the Latin "veritas", does not capture the meaning in the Greek term aletheia, "αληθεια".

Kultur wrote:
The English word "culture" for the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense can be problematic too. One has to know what Spengler meant by "Kultur".
Some etymological digging can help uncover the buried and forgotten roots.

Kultur wrote:
When I used to ask a person whose first language was English what he/she understood by "culture", I often only got to hear: "education" in the sense of "teaching/learning", "schooling", most especially "art". But this is too Little for a speaker with German as first language. Although the old understanding of the German "Kultur" is also disappearing more and more in the public, it is still completely understandable to the most, even almost self-evident.
Art, including language, is the "canary in the midshaft" indicating a general malaise - dumbing-down - and infection - nihilism - has began the final process of a civilizations end.

Kultur wrote:
If one means the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense, one should not use the English word "civilisation" ("civilization"). Also the English word "culture", as I already said, does not exactly denote what the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense denotes.
I've tried to incorporate such subtle ways of indicating nuances, but it is hard when dealing with a variety of people rigidly defending their prejudices.

I often use "ego" to distinguish the lucid par of selfness, contrasting to the unconscious, impulsive physical self, in the concept of self-awareness - that which is aware, or becoming aware, is the ego, and it is the ego that resists and seeks refuge in linguistic contrivances.
Most are still using "white" to indicate the European branch of the Indo-European race and culture, just as the Africans use Black because they don't know their place of origin - it is evidence that many European are miscegenated and have lost their heritage.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 08, 2021 4:06 pm

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
If two different nations, which are closely related to each other, have different opinions about Kultur/culture and Zivilisation/civilisation or even about Kultur and culture, sometimes also about Zivilisation and civilisation, because already the meanings of these words are not congruent, then this is even more true for two different Kulturen/cultures or Zivilisationen/civilisations. The linguistic differences between the peoples are like different accents of a (universal) language, a language family etc., where each language, so to speak, acts similarly to a "net" thrown over reality (in the different linguistic communities the meshes of this net are not of the same size and do not run everywhere in the same way); and even finer differences, fine-tunings, so to speak, e.g. dialects (geo[graphic-]linguistic), sociolects (sociolinguistic), even idiolects ([ego-]idiolinguistic).
Greek has no word for culture other than the one mores adopted from the Latin languages "κουλτουρα", for culture, and for civilization "πολιτισμος" which is etymologically rooted in the concept of urbanity and governance.
Yes, "κουλτουρα"  is a loanword - a word borrowed from other languages - which indicates that what culture actually means has been completely lost in Greek. There are many such examples. And it is a great pity when precisely a cultural folk ("Kulturvolk" in German) like the Greeks are affected by this. The ancient Greek language lasted for a long time, but towards the end of that time it gradually became „civilized“, thus deformed. Even the ancient Romans valued the ancient Greek language more than their own language for a long time - this changed gradually only since the 1st century BC. Besides Greek, there is another cultural language („Kultursprache“ in German): German. I hope that German will not suffer the same fate as ancient Greek did. But it looks like that it will, and the internet accelerates this process. English, which has already been shortened to the bare essentials, is obviously considered a model. This can be observed especially on the internet too.

But "πολιτισμος" for civilization is interesting. Why did it get just this word?

Satyr wrote:
The Greeks used "παιδεια" to refer to the habits and training a culture imposes upon a man to cultivate him into its ideal citizen in a civilization.
Do you know the work "Paideia" of the German classical philologist Werner Jaeger (1888-1961), first published in 1934? Jaeger has taken the title of his probably best-known book with an ancient Greek word (although not in ancient Greek letters), thus leaving it untranslated, which is sometimes preferable ( what I have also said with regard to the German word "Kultur"). The book is recommended.

During my studies I also dealt with Greek education, especially Spartan education. To do that, you can't get around knowing the meaning of the word.

This study was also about the poems of Tyrtaios (τυρταιος). In a seminar I also dealt with the poems of Tyrtaios. I got a certificate of study for that. I still remember it very clearly, although it was a very long time ago.

Satyr wrote:
We are currently moving into a phase where terms like "male/female" are being detached from a shared reality, converted to obscure metaphorical ideas/ideals that can mean anything because they are unrestricted by the tangible world - by natural order.
Agreed.

Satyr wrote:
So, in the spirit of "bringing it all back down to earth" all terms must be defined by reconnecting them to a shared experiential referent, to maintain dialogue, even if in disagreement, as rational and pragmatic as possible.
Yes. And it must also be filled with "life". But that's where I - like Spengler - see one of the problems: If the culture can no longer be "lived", then it simply cannot be brought back.

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
I have already indicated in the opening post how Spengler understands Kulturen (plural form of "Kultur"). For Spengler, Kulturen are "living units", and these "living units" live their cycle like other living beings, "real living beings" (creatures), as the colloquial language would say. Spengler understands cultures (Kulturen) in such a way, as I said it above: as an umbrella term, as "hyperonomy" or "super organization", as the linguists say.
To put it in my linguistic context "culture" is to the Superorganism what "spirit" is to an organism, viz., the mind/body/nervous system expressed outwardly as actions/behaviours, attitude/demeanour, art/semiotics (including language).
Yes, this can be said. And to the "spirit" I would add the "soul". Or do you equate the soul with the spirit?  

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
From Spengler's (and also my) point of view, Zivilization is the downfall of a Kultur, its unfruitfulness (childlessness, infertility), its nihilism, its decadence. The Kultur does not become something completely different when it becomes Zivilization. It remains the same, but just becomes its Weltstädte (World cities, cosmopolitan cities), its own form of unfruitfulness (childlessness, infertility), nihilism, decadence, its downfall, its decline, its decay, its senility, its dementia.
Therefore, we might say that "civilization" is the final phase of a culture - its highest achievement, displayed through urbanization, regimentation, sclerotic rigidity losing flexibility/adaptability - just as an organism when it grows old - cocooning itself in its own past; unable to respond efficiently to environmental changes.
Exactly.

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
Not to be separated from a culture is its Ursymbol ("primal symbol") and its Seelenbild ("soul image"), both of which are coupled to the landscape surrounding the culture, because, according to Spengler, the experience of spatial depth is decisive:
    "The fate-directed life appears, as soon as we awake, in the sense life as felt depth. Everything stretches, but it is not yet 'the space', nothing solidified in itself, but a constant stretching from the moved here to the moved there. The experience of the world is exclusively linked to the essence of depth - of distance - whose pull in the abstract system of mathematics is called 'third dimension' besides length and width. .... The experience of depth is - on this insight everything else depends - a completely involuntary and necessary as well as completely creative act, through which the I receives its world, I would like to say dictated to it."
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 217-218 (translated by me).
    "The depth experience stretches the sensation to the world. The being directed of the life was called with meaning as non-reversibility and a rest of this decisive characteristic of the time lies in the compulsion to be able to feel also the depth of the world always from itself, never from the horizon to itself. The moving body of all animals and of man is designed towards this direction. One moves 'forward'- towards the future, approaching with every step not only the goal, but also the age - and feels every look backward also as the look at something past, already ordered to the history."
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 223-224 (translated by me).

Without landscape, without depth experience, without primal symbol, without soul image, without relative selfhood (selfreference), without a breed as cultivation, as culture (!), Kultur in Spengler's sense is not understandable.
Space being a defining characteristic of the "Faustian spirit" - "space" in the Heidegger sense of expanding possibilities, within which matter/energy is but an appreciation of probability, or heightened possibility.
Space in the context of a SuperOrganism - with a distinct culture is its spatio-temporal field of effect - its psychosomatic aura, i.e., a field of increased interactivity similar to that of a magnetic field cast by a solar mass - or in Nieatzchean terms its "will to power".
The DNA is to an organism what semiotics, i.e., art, language, is to a Superorganism - its genotype; civilization is the phenotype.
Do you mean by „superorganism“ culture (Kultur) too? Do you mean by „civilization“ „Zivilisation“ in Spengler's sense or just in the English sense? If you mean that semiotics/language as the geonotype of a culture (as a superorganism!) and the phenotype as the civilization, then you are assuming that both culture and civilization started at the same time, just as genotype and phenotype do. A genotype is that which is and will be and will have become at some point, and a phenotype is that which seems, looks, is describable as a phenomenon. Thus, you do not distinguish culture and civilization on the temporal level because they both appear and disappear at the same time. Is that right?

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
The English word "civilization" never means the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense, but denotes only a part of it, its final stage, which may or may not be subdivided again into sub-stages, if one wishes.
Just as the English word "truth" - from the Latin "veritas", does not capture the meaning in the Greek term aletheia, "αληθεια".
Wikipedia wrote:
The English word truth is derived from Old English tríewþ, tréowþ, trýwþ, Middle English trewþe, cognate to Old High German triuwida, Old Norse tryggð. Like troth, it is a -th nominalisation of the adjective true (Old English tréowe).

The English word true is from Old English (West Saxon) (ge)tríewe, tréowe, cognate to Old Saxon (gi)trûui, Old High German (ga)triuwu (Modern German treu "faithful"), Old Norse tryggr, Gothic triggws,[4] all from a Proto-Germanic *trewwj- "having good faith", perhaps ultimately from PIE *dru- "tree", on the notion of "steadfast as an oak" (e.g., Sanskrit dā́ru "(piece of) wood").[5] Old Norse trú, "faith, word of honour; religious faith, belief"[6] (archaic English troth "loyalty, honesty, good faith", compare Ásatrú).

Thus, 'truth' involves both the quality of "faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, sincerity, veracity",[7] and that of "agreement with fact or reality", in Anglo-Saxon expressed by sōþ (Modern English sooth).

All Germanic languages besides English have introduced a terminological distinction between truth "fidelity" and truth "factuality". To express "factuality", North Germanic opted for nouns derived from sanna "to assert, affirm", while continental West Germanic (German and Dutch) opted for continuations of wâra "faith, trust ...".
English, German, Latin, Greek and almost all other languages of Europe as well as West Asia, South Asia, and to a lesser extent Central Asia, share the same linguistic root, which is called Indo-Germanic because it is meant to designate the westernmost region (Iceland) and the easternmost region (India). Political correctness has done a great job here, too, and made Indo-Germanic into "Indo-European".

I like the following film (posted by you):


Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
If one means the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense, one should not use the English word "civilisation" ("civilization"). Also the English word "culture", as I already said, does not exactly denote what the German word "Kultur" in Spengler's sense denotes.
I've tried to incorporate such subtle ways of indicating nuances, but it is hard when dealing with a variety of people rigidly defending their prejudices.
Their prejudices are consequences of their obedience to authority, their weakness, their convenience, their comfort, their pampering.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 08, 2021 5:11 pm

Kultur wrote:
But "πολιτισμος" for civilization is interesting. Why did it get just this word?
I don't understand the question.

Polis = city. Citizen of a city. Civilization already implies a distancing from the earth, and the "pagans" where culture is rooted in the soil, i.e., in nature where their dead ancestors are buried and which their gods represent.
Civilization comes from the Latin civilis.

Kultur wrote:
Do you know the work "Paideia" of the German classical philologist Werner Jaeger (1888-1961), first published in 1934? Jaeger has taken the title of his probably best-known book with an ancient Greek word (although not in ancient Greek letters), thus leaving it untranslated, which is sometimes preferable ( what I have also said with regard to the German word "Kultur"). The book is recommended.
Yes, paideia - παιδεια - is closest to the meaning of culture.
Interestingly it shares a root word with παιδευο, meaning to torture or to make suffer.
εκ-παιδευο means to train. So culture is about training, exercise, cultivation - a form of self-torture, i.e., exersion.

Kultur wrote:
Yes. And it must also be filled with "life". But that's where I - like Spengler - see one of the problems: If the culture can no longer be "lived", then it simply cannot be brought back.
Nothing can ever be brought back exactly as it was - even recollection has an element of something being lost in time.
I do not even believe in the eternal recurrence, or in reincarnation. Even if the cosmos goes in cycles it does not repeat in exactly the same way, due to the factor of chaos, i.e., randomness.
Every cycle is slightly different, so every repetition of a culture is never like the preceding one.
Without the factor of chaos not only is there no free-will but consciousness is irrelevant - the universe is described as a tape that repeats eternally and nothing, not even a god, can change it. It describes existence as a joke.  

Kultur wrote:
Yes, this can be said. And to the "spirit" I would add the "soul". Or do you equate the soul with the spirit?  
These are interchangeable terms. I use "spirit" to refer to the continuum of memories that extend beyond a single lifetime, and "soul" to refer to this continuum's manifestation as an individual in the present, as presence; soul = inherited spirit.

Kultur wrote:
Do you mean by „superorganism“ culture (Kultur) too? Do you mean by „civilization“ „Zivilisation“ in Spengler's sense or just in the English sense? If you mean that semiotics/language as the geonotype of a culture (as a superorganism!) and the phenotype as the civilization, then you are assuming that both culture and civilization started at the same time, just as genotype and phenotype do. A genotype is that which is and will be and will have become at some point, and a phenotype is that which seems, looks, is describable as a phenomenon. Thus, you do not distinguish culture and civilization on the temporal level because they both appear and disappear at the same time. Is that right?
Culture = genotype. Inherited memories, across the ages.
Civilization = phenotype. How the genotype, or these memories, reveal themselves in the present.
A genotype may be inherited by two siblings but how these memories combine - synthesize - and how this synthesis manifests itself outward is always different - this is the case even for twins.
Every transmission entails a mutation/corruption - due to cosmic forces, and random energies (chaos)...which reconnects us to what you were saying about "returning back", which can never happen. We can re-call, but not re-turn.
All we can do is salvage the core elements of the past and preserve them, hoping that one day they will dominate albeit in a modified way.
We can't go back to how things were in ancient Sparta - neither do we want to because every culture has negatives and positives - but we can preserve its core, defining, components and adapt them to current circumstances.    

Wikipedia wrote:
The English word truth is derived from Old English tríewþ, tréowþ, trýwþ, Middle English trewþe, cognate to Old High German triuwida, Old Norse tryggð. Like troth, it is a -th nominalisation of the adjective true (Old English tréowe).

The English word true is from Old English (West Saxon) (ge)tríewe, tréowe, cognate to Old Saxon (gi)trûui, Old High German (ga)triuwu (Modern German treu "faithful"), Old Norse tryggr, Gothic triggws,[4] all from a Proto-Germanic *trewwj- "having good faith", perhaps ultimately from PIE *dru- "tree", on the notion of "steadfast as an oak" (e.g., Sanskrit dā́ru "(piece of) wood").[5] Old Norse trú, "faith, word of honour; religious faith, belief"[6] (archaic English troth "loyalty, honesty, good faith", compare Ásatrú).
Thus, 'truth' involves both the quality of "faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, sincerity, veracity",[7] and that of "agreement with fact or reality", in Anglo-Saxon expressed by sōþ (Modern English sooth).
Heidegger, Martin wrote:
With regard to the Latin name for the true, verum, we shall keep two incidents in mind:
1. Verum, ver-, meant originally enclosing, covering.
The Latin verum belongs to the same realm of meaning as the Greek αληθες, the uncovered – precisely by signifying the exact opposite of αληθες: the closed off.
2. But now because verum is counter to falsum, and because the essential domain of the imperium is decisive for verum and falsum and their opposites, the sense of ver-, namely enclosed and cover, becomes basically that of covering for security against. Ver is now the maintaining-oneself, the being-above; ver becomes the opposite of falling.
Verum is the remaining constant, the upright that which is directed to what is superior because it is directing from above. Verum is rectum (regere, ‘the regime’), the right, iustum.
For the Romans the realm of concealment and disconcealment does not at all come to be, although it strives in that direction in ver, the essential realm determining the essence of truth. Under the influence of the imperial, verum becomes forthwith ‘being-above,’ directive for what is right; veritas is then rectitude, ‘correctness,’ we would say.
The originally Roman stamp given to the essence of truth, which solidly establishes the all-pervading basic character of the essence of truth in the Occident, rejoins an unfolding of the essence of truth that begin already with the Greeks and that at the same time marks the inception of Western metaphysics.

Kultur wrote:
All Germanic languages besides English have introduced a terminological distinction between truth "fidelity" and truth "factuality". To express "factuality", North Germanic opted for nouns derived from sanna "to assert, affirm", while continental West Germanic (German and Dutch) opted for continuations of wâra "faith, trust ...".
English, German, Latin, Greek and almost all other languages of Europe as well as West Asia, South Asia, and to a lesser extent Central Asia, share the same linguistic root, which is called Indo-Germanic because it is meant to designate the westernmost region (Iceland) and the easternmost region (India). Political correctness has done a great job here, too, and made Indo-Germanic into "Indo-European".[/quote]
In Greek the term means to re-call - to call forth into lucid memory - to negate forgetfulness, i.e., un-forgetting.

Kultur wrote:
I like the following film (posted by you):

It offers a brief and simple overview of how race and language are intertwined and how they may diverge, over time, as language transmits memotypes through intercourse with other peoples.

Kultur wrote:
Their prejudices are consequences of their obedience to authority, their weakness, their convenience, their comfort, their pampering.
Yes.
This is the basic principle of how I define how and why nihilistic schools of thought emerge and evolve, viz., they emerge to protect individuals form their own growing self-awarness, exposing them to new sources of anxiety/suffering requiring the ego to be protected.
This is the fundamental principle connecting Marxism and Abrahamism - other than the obvious: it erases racial/sexual distinctions unifying the world's meek, i.e., the world genetically wronged; realizing they've inherited poor genes that require much effort to be compensated.
Inheritors of poverty always desire to share wealth.
"Exploitation" is an intrinsic part of evolution and natural selection. man exploits other species, and hunters exploit the animals they hunt and consume.

The world sinners, begging for salvation, corresponds to the world workers, that must unite, across borders and creeds to create utopia, or paradise on earth.
Both are distinctly anti-nature, offering alternative realities; one in the beyond or in the occult hidden world, and the other in the eternal imminent future which is always but a "day away" but is never, ever, present; both gather to become a power all the worlds powerless; both have a messianic mission, to save those they most despise in secret; both must self-cotnradict to remain viable, their ideal man cannot survive in a world full of competitors but envisions a coming world free from all "tempters and temptations" where their ideal can finally unfold uninterrupted, i.e., ideal men, in ideal circumstances, creating ideal alternate realities - Christianity, for example, is founded on an anti-traditinola family text, yet presents itself as defender of family values; Marxism is founded on intelligentsia that secretly despises the proletariat they pretend to want to raise to power.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 08, 2021 6:59 pm

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
But "πολιτισμος" for civilization is interesting. Why did it get just this word?
I don't understand the question.
I meant that the ancient Greeks could have gotten a loanword also regarding the word "civilization", e.g. "kivilismós" (I don't have Greek letters available, always have to pick them out of the Greek words you have written) or something like that.

Satyr wrote:
Culture = genotype. Inherited memories, across the ages.
Civilization = phenotype. How the genotype, or these memories, reveal themselves in the present.
Okay.

We need to know our different definitions - for reasons of understanding.

For me, civilization is that temporal part of culture in which culture descends, like the sun since the equinox at the transition from summer to autumn.

Accordingly, for me, civilization is a phenotype only then when the culture is setting, descending, declining, sinking, falling.

Satyr wrote:
Heidegger, Martin wrote:
With regard to the Latin name for the true, verum, we shall keep two incidents in mind:
1. Verum, ver-, meant originally enclosing, covering.
The Latin verum belongs to the same realm of meaning as the Greek αληθες, the uncovered – precisely by signifying the exact opposite of αληθες: the closed off.
2. But now because verum is counter to falsum, and because the essential domain of the imperium is decisive for verum and falsum and their opposites, the sense of ver-, namely enclosed and cover, becomes basically that of covering for security against. Ver is now the maintaining-oneself, the being-above; ver becomes the opposite of falling.
Verum is the remaining constant, the upright that which is directed to what is superior because it is directing from above. Verum is rectum (regere, ‘the regime’), the right, iustum.
For the Romans the realm of concealment and disconcealment does not at all come to be, although it strives in that direction in ver, the essential realm determining the essence of truth. Under the influence of the imperial, verum becomes forthwith ‘being-above,’ directive for what is right; veritas is then rectitude, ‘correctness,’ we would say.
The originally Roman stamp given to the essence of truth, which solidly establishes the all-pervading basic character of the essence of truth in the Occident, rejoins an unfolding of the essence of truth that begin already with the Greeks and that at the same time marks the inception of Western metaphysics.
Heidegger studied "alethia" very intensively and discovered that it has to do with "Unverborgenheit" ("unconcealment"). According to Heidegger, science and technology have inherently the character of an organized assassination of hiddenness. Heidegger took the decisive hint for the development of this view from the ancient Greek word for truth, alethéia, which he translated as Un-Verbrogenheit (un-concealment) - in one respect probably rightly, since it suggests itself to analyze the expression as a composite of the word "Lethe", concealment, mantling, forgetting, and the negation prefix "a".

Satyr wrote:
In Greek the term means to re-call - to call forth into lucid memory - to negate forgetfulness, i.e., un-forgetting.
Yes, as stated above. Heidegger has worked this out very well. Sometimes two words which are the same in meaning develop into two words which are opposite in meaning or even negate each other in meaning.

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
Their prejudices are consequences of their obedience to authority, their weakness, their convenience, their comfort, their pampering.
Yes.
This is the basic principle of how I define how and why nihilistic schools of thought emerge and evolve, viz., they emerge to protect individuals form their own growing self-awarness, exposing them to new sources of anxiety/suffering requiring the ego to be protected.
This is the fundamental principle connecting Marxism and Abrahamism - other than the obvious: it erases racial/sexual distinctions unifying the world's meek, i.e., the world genetically wronged; realizing they've inherited poor genes that require much effort to be compensated.
Inheritors of poverty always desire to share wealth.
"Exploitation" is an intrinsic part of evolution and natural selection. man exploits other species, and hunters exploit the animals they hunt and consume.

The world sinners, begging for salvation, corresponds to the world workers, that must unite, across borders and creeds to create utopia, or paradise on earth.
Both are distinctly anti-nature, offering alternative realities; one in the beyond or in the occult hidden world, and the other in the eternal imminent future which is always but a "day away" but is never, ever, present; both gather to become a power all the worlds powerless; both have a messianic mission, to save those they most despise in secret; both must self-cotnradict to remain viable, their ideal man cannot survive in a world full of competitors but envisions a coming world free from all "tempters and temptations" where their ideal can finally unfold uninterrupted, i.e., ideal men, in ideal circumstances, creating ideal alternate realities - Christianity, for example, is founded on an anti-traditinola family text, yet presents itself as defender of family values; Marxism is founded on intelligentsia that secretly despises the proletariat they pretend to want to raise to power.
Yes, you always have to pay attention to the contrasts here, too. Most people don't even notice them. That's why they fall for it again and again.

Language itself is also filled with contrasts, and it has to be, because the world it is supposed to depict is, too.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 08, 2021 7:54 pm

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
But "πολιτισμος" for civilization is interesting. Why did it get just this word?
I don't understand the question.
I meant that the ancient Greeks could have gotten a loanword also regarding the word "civilization", e.g. "kivilismós" (I don't have Greek letters available, always have to pick them out of the Greek words you have written) or something like that.

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
Yes. And it must also be filled with "life". But that's where I - like Spengler - see one of the problems: If the culture can no longer be "lived", then it simply cannot be brought back.
Nothing can ever be brought back exactly as it was - even recollection has an element of something being lost in time.
I do not even believe in the eternal recurrence, or in reincarnation. Even if the cosmos goes in cycles it does not repeat in exactly the same way, due to the factor of chaos, i.e., randomness.
Every cycle is slightly different, so every repetition of a culture is never like the preceding one.
Without the factor of chaos not only is there no free-will but consciousness is irrelevant - the universe is described as a tape that repeats eternally and nothing, not even a god, can change it. It describes existence as a joke.
Neither Spengler nor I said that something can be brought back.

Satyr wrote:
Culture = genotype. Inherited memories, across the ages.
Civilization = phenotype. How the genotype, or these memories, reveal themselves in the present.
Okay.

We need to know our different definitions - for reasons of understanding.

For me, civilization is that temporal part of culture in which culture descends, like the sun since the equinox at the transition from summer to autumn.

Accordingly, for me, civilization is a phenotype only then when the culture is setting, descending, declining, sinking, falling.

Satyr wrote:
Heidegger, Martin wrote:
With regard to the Latin name for the true, verum, we shall keep two incidents in mind:
1. Verum, ver-, meant originally enclosing, covering.
The Latin verum belongs to the same realm of meaning as the Greek αληθες, the uncovered – precisely by signifying the exact opposite of αληθες: the closed off.
2. But now because verum is counter to falsum, and because the essential domain of the imperium is decisive for verum and falsum and their opposites, the sense of ver-, namely enclosed and cover, becomes basically that of covering for security against. Ver is now the maintaining-oneself, the being-above; ver becomes the opposite of falling.
Verum is the remaining constant, the upright that which is directed to what is superior because it is directing from above. Verum is rectum (regere, ‘the regime’), the right, iustum.
For the Romans the realm of concealment and disconcealment does not at all come to be, although it strives in that direction in ver, the essential realm determining the essence of truth. Under the influence of the imperial, verum becomes forthwith ‘being-above,’ directive for what is right; veritas is then rectitude, ‘correctness,’ we would say.
The originally Roman stamp given to the essence of truth, which solidly establishes the all-pervading basic character of the essence of truth in the Occident, rejoins an unfolding of the essence of truth that begin already with the Greeks and that at the same time marks the inception of Western metaphysics.
Heidegger studied "alethia" very intensively and discovered that it has to do with "Unverborgenheit" ("unconcealment"). According to Heidegger, science and technology have inherently the character of an organized assassination of hiddenness. Heidegger took the decisive hint for the development of this view from the ancient Greek word for truth, alethéia, which he translated as Un-Verbrogenheit (un-concealment) - in one respect probably rightly, since it suggests itself to analyze the expression as a composite of the word "Lethe", concealment, mantling, forgetting, and the negation prefix "a".

Satyr wrote:
In Greek the term means to re-call - to call forth into lucid memory - to negate forgetfulness, i.e., un-forgetting.
Yes, as stated above. Heidegger has worked this out very well. Sometimes two words which are the same in meaning develop into two words which are opposite in meaning or even negate each other in meaning.

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
Their prejudices are consequences of their obedience to authority, their weakness, their convenience, their comfort, their pampering.
Yes.
This is the basic principle of how I define how and why nihilistic schools of thought emerge and evolve, viz., they emerge to protect individuals form their own growing self-awarness, exposing them to new sources of anxiety/suffering requiring the ego to be protected.
This is the fundamental principle connecting Marxism and Abrahamism - other than the obvious: it erases racial/sexual distinctions unifying the world's meek, i.e., the world genetically wronged; realizing they've inherited poor genes that require much effort to be compensated.
Inheritors of poverty always desire to share wealth.
"Exploitation" is an intrinsic part of evolution and natural selection. man exploits other species, and hunters exploit the animals they hunt and consume.

The world sinners, begging for salvation, corresponds to the world workers, that must unite, across borders and creeds to create utopia, or paradise on earth.
Both are distinctly anti-nature, offering alternative realities; one in the beyond or in the occult hidden world, and the other in the eternal imminent future which is always but a "day away" but is never, ever, present; both gather to become a power all the worlds powerless; both have a messianic mission, to save those they most despise in secret; both must self-cotnradict to remain viable, their ideal man cannot survive in a world full of competitors but envisions a coming world free from all "tempters and temptations" where their ideal can finally unfold uninterrupted, i.e., ideal men, in ideal circumstances, creating ideal alternate realities - Christianity, for example, is founded on an anti-traditinola family text, yet presents itself as defender of family values; Marxism is founded on intelligentsia that secretly despises the proletariat they pretend to want to raise to power.
Yes, you always have to pay attention to the contrasts here too. Most people don't even notice them. That's why they fall for it again and again.

Language itself is also filled with contrasts, and it has to be, because the world it is supposed to depict is too.


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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 08, 2021 7:59 pm

Kultur wrote:

We need to know our different definitions - for reasons of understanding.

For me, civilization is that temporal part of culture in which culture descends, like the sun since the equinox at the transition from summer to autumn.
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Genes are to an organism what memes are to a Superorganism - culture we may equate with tis "spirit" of becoming, i.e., its mind/body synthesis, or the sum of tis past manifesting in a present presence, which is interpreted as appearance.

Language, or art in general, is its DNA shared and transmitted during inter-cultural intercourse.


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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 08, 2021 8:04 pm

My own assessment of nihilism is as a reaction sheltering the ego from an emerging self-awarness.
Nihilism, as it is conventionally defined, is part of the nihilistic paradigm. It describes a cosmos void of meaning, universal morality and a one-god as negative, i.e., it defines the absence of its own projections as a negative, when in fact it is a positive.

I've offered my own diagnosis of the symptomology.
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Basically it describes a process of zombification, using semiology to detach the superorganic mind from experienced reality, and to attached it to esoteric abstractions, viz., solipsism. words referring to other words.
To conceal its motives it uses obscurantism, and mysticism.
Its power is founded on tis seductive appeal to the masses, offering them an alternative to a world they cannot accept nor endure; attracting all of nature's victims; natural selection's "cruelties" and "injustices".
I've called such offering "positive nihilism" contrasting with "pure nihilism" which simply surrenders to despair and advocates self-annihilation as a escape from the experience of existing.
"Positive nihilism" is a contradiction reflecting its self-cotnradicting theories and methodologies.
For example, it attempts to build power on the powerless; or mastery on slaves. I cannot share the term I use to describe this in this forum, but I can in the other.
Positive nihilistic dogmas and ideologies must self-cotnradict, otherwise they cannot survive in a world they deny and attempt to negate, i.e., "correct, heal, save".

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 09, 2021 2:08 pm

I haven't addressed a post of yours that I think is important.

Satyr wrote:
I agree with Schopenhauer the most, in metaphysics, with Heidegger next. Don't agree with Schopenhauer's solution.
Schopenhauer wrote brilliant texts. He was a good observer, a good analyst. He anticipated the later emerging Darwin and described many things much better than later Darwin. He also anticipated Freud, who came much later (Freud was to deny all his life that he copied from Schopenhauer and Nietzsche). Schopenhauer has later often been "labeled" as a pessimist, but he can also be seen as "the first thinker of the first rank who left the occidental church of reason" (Peter Sloterdijk) or as "the first patriarch of Eurobuddhism" (Peter Sloterdijk), because "optimism is cowardice" (Oswald Spengler).

Satyr wrote:
Goethe I haven't read, but gleaned what he thought from what others have said about him.
It is difficult to assign Goethe philosophically. He likely did not see himself as a philosopher (this also applies to the later Spengler, who almost idolized Goethe). But it is possible to recognize Goethe's philosophy from his writings.

Satyr wrote:
Haven't read N.Hartmann nor N. Luhmann.
N. Hartmann and N. Luhmann are a good addition to the others mentioned here, to which one could also add Carl Schmitt, Ernst Jünger, Friedrich Georg Jünger, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Arnold Gehlen and Ernst Nolte.

Satyr wrote:
Nietzsche is a fantastic psychoanalysts and prose writer but offers nothing new in metaphysics that I cannot find in Hinduism and Schopenhauer - his solution was more heroic.
Agreed.

Satyr wrote:
Evola is next on the list with none of Nietzsche's romanticism that makes him so seductive to effete males.
Nietzsche's romanticism - yes, that is exactly what Spengler also pointed out. Many of today's Nietzscheans don't like it at all when their beloved Nietzsche is outed as a romanticist.

Julius Evola belongs to the added ones (see above), I would say, but I have to admit that I do not know him as much as the others. The same goes for Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, Edgar Julius Jung. I have only read something about them, but not from them.

A good book for an introduction to the "Konservative Revolution" is the handbook "Die Konservative Revolution in Deutschland, 1918-1932" ("The Conservative Revolution in Germany, 1918-1932"), by Armin Mohler (later by Karlheinz Weißmann). But I don't know if the book is also available in English.

Satyr wrote:
Spengler is a fantastic socio-metaphysician, connecting the physical with the metaphysical.
Yes, but instead of "socio-" I would rather put "historical-". The present is a matter of 3 seconds at most. The past and the future are more important in terms of learning and knowledge. Also, language speaks (cf. Heidegger) and all things speak, whether semiotically, linguistically, logically, mathematically etc.. In this sense, "socio" or "sociology" is superfluous, "psycho" or "psychology" too, by the way. Both are typically decadent phenomena, serve only fraud, corruption, reeducation, decline. It is enough to speak, think and know about history and language (everything else is included in it anyway). The old ones knew it very well, and they were definitely not sillier than the present ones.

The high meaning of development is very Heraclitean, and Spengler was Heraclitean too.

Satyr wrote:
Heraclitus is my favourite of the Greeks.
You have that in common with Spengler - and with me.

Satyr wrote:
Sloterdijk is my favourite from the living. I haven't read as much as I should from him.
You have that in common with me - not with Spengler, because Spengler had already been dead for eleven years when Sloterdijk was born.

Satyr wrote:
Baudrillard is also good if you want to understand postmodernisms and how it corrupts.  
And it corrupts very much - just like many other "disciplines" that are not coincidentally becoming more and more popular.

More from the point of view of a historian or philosopher of history, I see in postmodernism only late modernism as the third and last phase of modernism.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Language - from semiotics to mathematics inclusive - has a very high significance. Everything in it tells of itself to us, it speaks, and we are the ones who have to figure out how to properly retell what has been told (spoken, communicated). Also so the history. Everything we experience has a time frame, a frame of change, and that is history.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 09, 2021 2:38 pm

Kultur wrote:

More from the point of view of a historian or philosopher of history, I see in postmodernism only late modernism as the third and last phase of modernism.
Yes, in my earlier posts I only used the term "modernity" because I consider postmodernism as its underlying logic pushed to its final phase.


Kultur wrote:
Language - from semiotics to mathematics inclusive - has a very high significance. Everything in it tells of itself to us, it speaks, and we are the ones who have to figure out how to properly retell what has been told (spoken, communicated). Also so the history. Everything we experience has a time frame, a frame of change, and that is history.
Yes, and the choice of words exposes the psychology of the individual, even if the terminology is often adopted and not original.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 28, 2021 1:38 pm


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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 5:40 pm



>Christians prostrate themselves because they are an Afro-Asiatic spiritual tradition that corrupted western civilizations and the European spirit.
They may not bow their face to the ground but they do kneel, and submit to an absolute external authority.

>Realism in the arts - including language - is how Indo-Euorpeans express their desire to engage reality, rather than cope with it - anti-nihilistic.
Nihilism detaches, flees, forgets, using words - corrupting language in order to conceal and not to reveal - anti-realism.

>Masculine traditions - like the Indo-Europeans - are naturally attracted to feminine traditions - like those of the Afro-asiatic region - this is particularly so as they age and decline - just as a man, when strong, dominated females but gradually becomes dependent no them as he ages.

>Finish is a Turkic language - we see here the consequences of corruptive contact, i.e., cross-contamination.

>Disgust, not fear is the source of discrimination. It isn't phobias, but toxicity causing a spontaneous gag reflex.

>Being offensive to people is part of genius. It places the pursuit of truth above all other considerations, whereas the emasculated spirit of mediocrity places survival above all else - therefore it is more than willing to sacrifice integrity, pride, and truth if it gains increased survivability.

>Memes from genes - Indo-European race corresponds to Indo-Euroepan language families which is the foundation of culture.






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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 5:47 am

Concerning the art it was with the Ancient Greeks mainly the sculpture (see e.g.: Phidias, Praxiteles), in the later Occident mainly the music (see e.g.: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven). Therefore it does not surprise me that I myself am also a very musical person.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 7:05 am

Kultur wrote:
Concerning the art it was with the Ancient Greeks mainly the sculpture (see e.g.: Phidias, Praxiteles), in the later Occident mainly the music (see e.g.: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven). Therefore it does not surprise me that I myself am also a very musical person.
Do you play an instrument?
I don't.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 3:07 pm

Satyr wrote:
Kultur wrote:
Concerning the art it was with the Ancient Greeks mainly the sculpture (see e.g.: Phidias, Praxiteles), in the later Occident mainly the music (see e.g.: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven). Therefore it does not surprise me that I myself am also a very musical person.
Do you play an instrument?
I don't.
I learned to play the flute a bit at school, also the harmonica at home (my father taught me), later I also learned to play the guitar a bit in a self-taught way. But I have not done all this intensively enough, so I have remained at the beginner level. But my wife is good at playing the piano. It is beautiful, has a calming effect, makes one serene, like music in general. Music is for the soul.

My interest in music comes not so much from the active side (thus: playing an instrument), but all the more from the passive side (listening to music). Furthermore, I am interested in aesthetics, the philosophy of music and especially the cultural-historical context.

When I say I am a "musical person", I mean first of all my strong interest in music and only lastly my own "compositions".   Wink

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 3:20 pm

In that case what I wrote many years ago on music might amuse you...

Satyr wrote:
MUSIC

First Proposition
Patterns
The brain forages for patterns. It is an ordering biological tool.
The mind is its projection in time/space. As such it is attracted to patterns and order. The brain can only comprehend what it can store and analyze.
Storage requires ordering (Cataloguing, Categorizing); ordering the confusing or chaotic or complicated demands simplification/generalization.
We create approximations to efficiently act. We understand by finding a pattern and extrapolating the entirety.
Second Proposition
Resistance
The path-of-least-resistance implies that repetition lessens resistances creating habituation and experience. We are drawn to the familiar because a neural pathway, once established, is more easily reused, rather than replaced.
Continuous use makes something familiar and easy. This attraction to the familiar creates behavioral patterns resulting in thinking, species, or culture.

Third Proposition
Energy
Energy is a resonating activity. It is action/movement manifesting, or universal Flux. Matter is resonating energy at a specific tone, making it more or less substantial in relation to our sensual acuity.

Fourth Proposition
Melody
Music is a sound exhibiting patterns and repetition. Otherwise it is called noise. It is energy made audible.

Conclusion
The familiarity of the pattern makes it attractive. It awakens remembrance by stimulating neural pathways which might have become forgotten or by harmonizing with our own energies it can imitate our becoming. This is why music can be emotional and exhibit psychosomatic effects.
We are energy and so the vibrations are intimate to our becoming.

I believe music can be divided into superior/inferior using the quality of melody, i.e., harmony indicating symmetry/proportionality that is perceived by an organism as "beautiful", rather than the beat, which is primal, i.e., imitating the heart beat, or systolic/diastolic organic phases, simplified into binary codes, 1/0.

Satyr wrote:
Superior/Inferior Music
In music the objective way of judging it is by how rhythm, tempo and melody coexists and combine in a composition – judging superior and inferior by the degree to which rhythm dominates over melody, reducing complexity to an either/or beat mirroring organic metabolic rhythms and heartbeats, and/or by what degree melody dominates rhythm, representing the fluidity of space/time in musical form.
Melody is the binding quality of music, differentiating superior from what is inferior – the sophisticated from the base and primal.



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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 3:27 pm

McGilchrist, Iain wrote:
“It has been said that music, like poetry, is intrinsically sad, and a survey of music from many parts of the world would bear that out – not, of course, that there is no joyful music, but that even such music often appears to be joy torn from the teeth of sadness, a sort of holiday of the minor key. It is what we would expect in view of the emotional timbre of the right hemisphere; and there is a stronger affinity between the right hemisphere and the minor key, as well as between the left hemisphere and the major key.
The pre-Socratic philosopher Gorgias wrote that
Gorgias wrote:
awe [phrike] and tearful pity and mournful desire enter those who listen to poetry
and at this time poetry and song were one.
[The Master and His Emissary – The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World]

Schopenhauer, Arthur wrote:
This art is music. It stands quite apart from all the others.
In it we do not recognize the copy, the repetition, of any Idea of the inner nature of the world.
Yet it is such a great and exceedingly fine art, its effect on man's innermost nature is so powerful, and it is so completely and profoundly understood by him in his innermost being as an entirely universal language, whose distinctness surpasses even that of the world of perception itself, that in it we certainly have to look for more than that exercitium arithmeticae occultum nescientis se numerare animi [exercise in arithmetic in which the mind does not know it is counting] which Leibniz took it to be.

Evola, Julius wrote:
One can deduce that modern man, especially North American man, has regressed to primitivism in choosing, assimilating, and developing a music of such primitive qualities as Negro music, which was even originally associated with dark forms of ecstasy.

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