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 The Rise and Fall of Cultures.

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Kultur

Kultur

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PostSubject: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyTue Feb 16, 2021 7:11 pm

The Rise and Fall of Cultures.



Cultures are beings similar to organisms and their course resembles that of the seasons. Cultures go through winter, spring, summer, autumn and eventually again a new winter or even a new seasonal cycle as a whole with smaller differences, smaller "amplitudes". Two examples can be seen in my avatar. (1) The first example shows the development in a larger framework from the first cave drawings to the present and can be called "Metaculture"; probably the most prominent signs are: (a) painted pictures, (b) first writing, (c) first vowel writing, (d) first "running pictures" (movies). (2) The second example shows one of the "advanced civilizations" (according to Spengler eight in number, all included in the "Metaculture" mentioned above): the occidental culture; for its time span, however, I do not estimate about 1000 years like Spengler, but about 2000 years. The order is to be seen in my avatar from left to right and from top to bottom.

Spengler. Culture morphology.



Oswald Spengler (translated):

    "Cultures are organisms. World history is their total biography. The immense history of the Chinese or ancient culture is morphologically the exact side piece to the small history of the individual human being, an animal, a tree or a flower. This is not a demand for the Faustian view, but an experience. If one wants to know the everywhere repeated inner form, the comparative morphology of the plants and animals has long prepared the method for it."

- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918, S. 140 (translated).


From the Film "Linear History and Vulgar Optimism":

    "Spengler made the astonishing claim, that he had introduced a 'Copernican' model of history. History is not linear, but rather the organic rise and fall of High Cultures. Modern Man believs in the idea of 'progress', the idea that history moves along a linear path of moral, political, social and technolgical improvement. The final state of this 'improvement' will be, the Modern Man believes, an utopia of peace, equality, freedom, material abundance and security. Nature will no longer be able to constrain man. It is the Faustian longing for boundless infinity. Culture is an organic process with stage of birth, maturity and ultimately death. Western culture's boundless optimism lies within Christianity. The idea of progression of time towards a final, perfect heaven and earth. This feeling of progress was rationalized, naturalized and secularized in the Enlightenment. For Modern Man his religion is Enlightenment ideology. He believes that the holy trinity - equality, Democracy and Materialism - will lead inevitably to utopia on earth, despite evidence to the contrary. His faith in them is absolutely certain. Pacifism will not 'save' mankind. Equality will not 'save' mankind. Science will not 'save' mankind. Capitalism will not 'save' mankind. There is nothing that will usher in an utopia for man and this world. Utopian ideals are perfect and static. Life is change. When an entire society chases after utopian fantasies, it is a sign of old age. Every culture/civilization, no matter how formerly great, has ended / will end. Fairy tales of heaven on earth through tolerance and understanding are foolish dreams. A people must insist on its own existence, no one else will.Spengler was quite conscious of this clash of orientations in the West. He knew that men are generally disdainful of experience and that, driven by limitless and uncontrolled hope, they like to conceptualize the future in terms of what they consider the desirable rather than the likely course of events. In counterpoint to these, in his view, irrational trends, he remarked that optimism is naive and in some respects even vulgar, and that it surely stands for cowardice when one is afraid to face the fact that life is fleeting and transient in all its aspects. These thoughts touch a major motif in Spengler's philosophy which critics tend to ignore, namely the recognition of the place of tragedy in the Occidental cultural world. Tragic modes of experiencing life can only evolve there, where the individual human being is presumed autonomous in his feelings, thoughts, and actions, and where he is therefore vulnerable to the agony of having to make choices between conflicting interests and commitments."


Oswald Spengler (translated):

    "Since Newton, the assumption of constant mass — the counterpart of constant force — has had uncontested validity. But the Quantum theory of Planck, and the conclusions of Niels Bohr therefrom as to the fine structure of atoms, which experimental experience had rendered necessary, have destroyed this assumption. Every self-contained system possesses, besides kinetic energy, an energy of radiant heat which is inseparable from it and therefore cannot be represented purely by the concept of mass. For if mass is defined by living energy it is ipso facto no longer constant with reference to thermodynamic state. Nevertheless, it is impossible to fit the theory of quanta into the group of hypotheses constituting the 'classical' mechanics of the Baroque; moreover, along with the principle of causal continuity, the basis of the Infinitesimal Calculus founded by Leibniz is threatened (1). But, if these are serious enough doubts, the ruthlessly cynical hypothesis of the Relativity theory strikes to the very heart of dynamics. Supported by the experiments of A. A. Michelson, which showed that the velocity of light remains unaffected by the motion of the medium, and prepared mathematically by Lorentz and Minkowski, its specific tendency is to destroy the notion of absolute time. Astronomical discoveries (and here present-day scientists are seriously deceiving themselves) can neither establish nor refute it. 'Correct' and 'incorrect' are not the criteria whereby such assumptions are to be tested; the question is whether, in the chaos of involved and artificial ideas that has been produced by the innumerable hypotheses of Radioactivity and Thermodynamics, it can hold its own as a useable hypothesis or not. But however this may be, it has abolished the constancy of those physical quantities into the definition of which time has entered, and unlike the antique statics, the Western dynamics knows only such quantities. Absolute measures of length and rigid bodies are no more. And with this the possibility of absolute quantitative delimitations and therefore the 'classical' concept of mass as the constant ratio between force and acceleration fall to the ground — just after the quantum of action, a product of energy and time, had been set up as a new constant.

    (1) See M. Planck, Entstehung und bisherige Entwicklung der Quantentheorie (1920), pp. 17, 25.

    If we make it clear to ourselves that the atomic ideas of Rutherford and Bohr (2) signify nothing but this, that the numerical results of observations have suddenly been provided with a picture of a planetary world within the atom, instead of that of atom-swarms hitherto favoured; if we observe how rapidly card-houses of hypothesis are run up nowadays, every contradiction being immediately covered up by a new hurried hypothesis; if we reflect on how little heed is paid to the fact that these images contradict one another and the 'classical' Baroque mechanics alike, we cannot but realize that the great style of ideation is at an end and that, as in architecture and the arts of form, a sort of craft-art of hypothesis-building has taken its place. Only our extreme maestria in experimental technique — true child of its century — hides the collapse of the symbolism.

    (2) Which in many cases have led to the supposition that the 'actual existence' of atoms has now at last been proved — a singular throw-back to the materialism of the preceding generation.

    Amongst these symbols of decline, the most conspicuous is the notion of entropy, which forms the subject of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The first law, that of the conservation of energy, is the plain formulation of the essence of dynamics — not to say of the constitution of the West-European soul, to which nature is necessarily visible only in the form of a contrapuntal-dynamic causality (as against the static-plastic causality of Aristotle). The basic element of the Faustian world-picture is not the attitude but the feed and, mechanically considered, the process, and this law merely puts the mathematical character of these processes into form as variables and constants. But the Second Law goes deeper, and shows a bias in nature-happenings which is in no wise imposed a priori by the conceptual fundamentals of dynamics.

    Mathematically, entropy is represented by a quantity which is fixed by the momentary state of a self-contained system of bodies and under all physical and chemical alterations can only increase, never diminish; in the most favourable conditions it remains unchanged. Entropy, like force and will, is something which (to anyone for whom this form-world is accessible at all) is inwardly clear and meaningful, but is formulated differently by every different authority and never satisfactorily by any. Here again, the intellect breaks down where the world-feeling demands expression.

    Nature-processes in general have been classified as irreversible and reversible, according as entropy is increased or not. In any process of the first kind, free energy is converted into bound energy, and if this dead energy is to be turned once more into living, this can only occur through the simultaneous binding of a further quantum of living energy in some second process; the best-known example is the combustion of coal — that is, the conversion of the living energy stored up in it into heat bound by the gas form of the carbon dioxide, if the latent energy of water is to be translated into steam-pressure and thereafter into motion. It follows that in the world as a whole entropy continually increases; that is, the dynamic system is manifestly approaching to some final state, whatever this may be. Examples of the irreversible processes are conduction of heat, diffusion, friction, emission of light and chemical reactions; of reversible, gravitation, electric oscillations, electromagnetic waves and sound-waves.

    What has never hitherto been fully felt, and what leads me to regard the Entropy Theory (1850) as the beginning of the destruction of that masterpiece of Western intelligence, the old dynamic physics, is the deep opposition of theory and actuality which is here for the first time introduced into theory itself. The First Law had drawn the strict picture of a causal nature-happening, but the Second Law by introducing irreversibility has for the first time brought into the mechanical-logical domain a tendency belonging to immediate life and thus in fundamental contradiction with the very essence of that domain.

    If the Entropy theory is followed out to its conclusion, it results, firstly, that in theory all processes must be reversible — which is one of the basic postulates of dynamics and is reasserted with all rigour in the Law of the Conservation of Energy — but, secondly, that in actuality processes of nature in their entirety are irreversible. Not even under the artificial conditions of laboratory experiment can the simplest process be exactly reversed, that is, a state once passed cannot be re-established. Nothing is more significant of the present condition of systematics than the introduction of the hypotheses of 'elementary disorder' for the purpose of smoothing-out the contradiction between intellectual postulate and actual experience. The 'smallest particles' of a body (an image, no more) throughout perform reversible processes, but in actual things the smallest particles are in disorder and mutually interfere; and so the irreversible process that alone is experienced by the observer is linked with increase of entropy by taking the mean probabilities of occurrences. And thus theory becomes a chapter of the Calculus of Probabilities, and in lieu of exact we have statistical methods.

    Evidently, the significance of this has passed unnoticed. Statistics belong, like chronology, to the domain of the organic, to fluctuating Life, to destiny and incident and not to the world of laws and timeless causality. As everyone knows, statistics serve above all to characterize political and economic, that is, historical, developments. In the 'classical' mechanics of Galileo and Newton there would have been no room for them. And if, now, suddenly the contents of that field are supposed to be understood and understandable only statistically and under the aspect of probability — instead of under that of the a piori exactitude which the Baroque thinkers unanimously demanded — what does it mean? It means that the object of understanding is ourselves. The nature 'known' in this wise is the nature that we know by way of living experience, that we live in ourselves. What theory asserts (and, being itself, must assert) — to wit, this ideal irreversibility that never happens in actuality — represents a relic of the old severe intellectual form, the great Baroque tradition that had contrapuntal music for twin sister. But the resort to statistics shows that the force that that tradition regulated and made effective is exhausted. Becoming and become, destiny and causality, historical and natural-science elements are beginning to be confused. Formulas of life, growth, age, direction and death are crowding up.

    That is what, from this point of view, irreversibility in world-processes has to mean. It is the expression, no longer of the physical, but of genuine historical, inwardly-experienced time, which is identical with destiny.

    Baroque physics was, root and branch, a strict systematic and remained so for as long as its structure was not racked by theories like these, as long as its field was absolutely free from anything that expressed accident and mere probability. But directly these theories come up, it becomes physiognomic. 'The course of the world' is followed out. The idea of the end of the world appears, under the veil of formulas that are no longer in their essence formulas at all. Something Goethean has entered into physics — and if we understand the deeper significance of Goethe's passionate polemic against Newton in the 'Farbenlehre' we shall realize the full weight of what this means. For therein intuitive vision was arguing against reason, life against death, creative image against normative law. The critical form-world of nature-knowledge came out of nature-feeling, God-feeling, as the evoked contrary. Here, at the end of the late period, it has reached the maximal distance and is turning to come home.

    So, once more, the imaging-power that is the efficient in dynamics conjures up the old great symbol of Faustian man's historical passion, care — the out-look into the farthest far of past and future, the back-looking study of history, the foreseeing state, the confessions and introspections, the bells that sounded over all our country-sides and measured the passing of Life. The ethos of the word time, as we alone feel it, as instrumental music alone and no statue-plastic can carry it, is directed upon an aim. This aim has been figured in every life-image that the West has conceived — as the Third Kingdom, as the New Age, as the task of mankind, as the issue of evolution. And it is figured, as the destined end-state of all Faustian 'nature' in entropy.

    Directional feeling, a relation of past and future, is implicit already in the mythic concept of force on which the whole of this dogmatic form-world rests, and in the description of natural processes it emerges distinct. It would not be too much, therefore, to say that entropy, as the intellectual form in which the infinite sum of nature-events is assembled as a historical and physiognomic unit, tacitly underlay all physical concept-formation from the outset, so that when it came out (as one day it was bound to come out) it was as a 'discovery' of scientific induction claiming 'support' from all the other theoretical elements of the system. The more dynamics exhausts its inner possibilities as it nears the goal, the more decidedly the historical characters in the picture come to the front and the more insistently the organic necessity of destiny asserts itself side by side with the inorganic necessity of causality, and direction makes itself felt along with capacity and intensity, the factors of pure extension. The course of this process is marked by the appearance of whole series of daring hypotheses, all of like sort, which are only apparently demanded by experimental results and which in fact world-feeling and mythology imagined as long ago as the Gothic age.

    Above all, this is manifested in the bizarre hypotheses of atomic disintegration which elucidate the phenomena of radioactivity, and according to which uranium atoms that have kept their essence unaltered, in spite of all external influences, for millions of years and then suddenly without assignable cause explode, scattering their smallest particles over space with velocities of thousands of kilometres per second. Only a few individuals in an aggregate of radioactive atoms are struck by destiny thus, the neighbours being entirely unaffected. Here too, then, is a picture of history and not 'nature,' and although statistical methods here also prove to be necessary, one might almost say that in them mathematical number has been replaced by chronological.

    With ideas like these, the mythopoetic force of the Faustian soul is returning to its origins. It was at the outset of the Gothic, just at the time when the first mechanical clocks were being built, that the myth of the world's end, Ragnarok, the twilight of the gods, arose. It may be that, like all the reputedly old-German myths Ragnarok (whether in the Voluspa form or as the Christian Muspilli) was modelled more or less on Classical and particularly Christian-Apocalyptic motives. Nevertheless, it is the expression and symbol of the Faustian and of no other soul. The Olympian college is historyless, it knows no becoming, no epochal moments, no aim. But the passionate thrust into distance is Faustian. Force, Will, has an aim, and where there is an aim there is for the inquiring eye an end. That which the perspective of oil-painting expressed by means of the vanishing point, the Baroque park by its pint de vue, and analysis by the the term of an infinite series — the conclusion, that is, of a willed directedness — assumes here the form of the concept. The Faust of the Second Part is dying, for he has reached his goal. What the myth of Götterdammerung signified of old, the irreligious form of it, the theory of entropy, signifies today — world's end as completion of an inwardly necessary evolution."

- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918, S. 540-547 (translated).


Last edited by Kultur on Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyTue Feb 16, 2021 7:22 pm

Yes...culture is to SuperOrganism what genotype is to organism.
Civilization would be its phenotype.

Every superorganism finding its counterpart in organic life - with tis own survival and reproductive strategies, identifying each through their behaviour - actions; art, including language (semiotics) are extensions - externalizations - of genetic impulses and self-knowledge, i.e., technologies/techniques exposing the esoteric (spirit, essence).

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyTue Feb 16, 2021 7:24 pm

I'm focusing on how all this manifests in the present world, and how we can understand what is occurring within these Spenglerean contexts.
For instance, why would a tribe, a race, a people, commit cultural and biological suicide?

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 12:30 pm

It is the rejection of life in a group, especially the rejection of what holds the group together. This rejection goes as far as the rejection of one's own identity
    "Infertility and Decay.

    And now from the fact that existence becomes more and more rootless, the wakefulness more and more tense, finally that phenomenon emerges, which was prepared in silence long ago and now suddenly moves into the bright light of history to put an end to the whole spectacle: the infertility of civilized man. This is not something that could be understood with everyday causality, for example physiologically, as modern science has naturally tried to do. Here is a thoroughly metaphysical turn to death. The last man of the world cities does not want to live any more, certainly as an individual, but not as a type, as a multitude; in this total being the fear of death expires. That which afflicts the true peasant with a deep and inexplicable fear, the thought of the extinction of the family and the name, has lost its meaning. The continuation of the related blood within the visible world is no longer felt as the duty of this blood, the lot of being the last is no longer felt as a doom. Not only because children have become impossible, but above all because the intelligence, which has been increased to the utmost, no longer finds reasons for their existence, they remain absent."  (Translated by me.)
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918, S. 678-679.

According to Spengler, the civilization of a culture is its downfall and the time after that, if it still exists, i.e. a petrified, frozen, solidified being in winter. When the culture becomes civilization, its urbanites begin to reject the community, all tradition and history, even the parents. And in the end, the culture/civilization consists almost entirely of city dwellers (except the most faithfully country people). The individual culture/civilization member just wants to be himself, not a member of his culture/civilization anymore.

Peter Sloterdijk said something about this too in almost all of his books, but especially in his 2014 published book "Die schrecklichen Kinder der Neuzeit" ("The terrible children of modern times" - there is no English translation of the book yet, as far as I know), which I consider to be the best of his books. He says that in the course of history there are (a) at first few, (b) then already some more and (c) afterwards very many "terrible children", who all fight against their history, i.e. their origin, their tradition, their belonging to a culture, history, homeland, family etc.. The curve for the number of "terrible children" in history suddenly rises exponentially.

Sloterdijk's division of culture into three evolutionary or historical stages - "early culture", "high culture", "late culture" (this understood in the sense of Gehlen) -, which is often found in his books, does not coincide with the division which Spengler prefered in his philosophy of culture and history and which I prefer in my philosophy of culture and history. That which I call the human "primitive culture" or "hunter-gatherer culture" lasting until the invention of writing, i.e. lasting for a very long time, he calls "early culture"; that which I call the human "metaculture" (see my last post) or "historical culture" (consisting of eight "historical cultures" / "high cultures"), he calls "high culture", which according to him lasts from the time of the invention of writing either (a) up to the "axis time" (Jaspers) or (b) up to the late Middle Ages resp. to the beginning of modern times or even to the French Revolution; the time after that is still a time of "high culture" (now almost civilization, "late culture") according to my theory of culture, but for Sloterdijk it is the time of "late culture" (understood in the sense of Gehlen - as already said).
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 6:05 pm

it explains why "pagani" was used as a derogatory term to describe those who had not abandoned their Indo-European traditions and spiritual beliefs.....and which identity is characteristic of urbanites?

Haven't read that Sloterdijk book.

Suffice it to say that memes/cultures follow the same cycles as genotypes/phenotypes.
A peak of maturity followed by a slow decline into old age, vulnerable to parasites, viruses and all kinds of diseases.
Language corrupts thought, and like genetic mutations, eventually leads to death.
As a man declines into old age he loses contact with reality, falling increasingly inward.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyThu Feb 18, 2021 7:01 pm

Satyr wrote:
it explains why "pagani" was used as a derogatory term to describe those who had not abandoned their Indo-European traditions and spiritual beliefs.....and which identity is characteristic of urbanites?
That can be said.

Satyr wrote:
Haven't read that Sloterdijk book.
Maybe there will be an English translation soon. Sloterdijk is known throughout the West.

Satyr wrote:
Suffice it to say that memes/cultures follow the same cycles as genotypes/phenotypes.
A peak of maturity followed by a slow decline into old age, vulnerable to parasites, viruses and all kinds of diseases.
Language corrupts thought, and like genetic mutations, eventually leads to death.
As a man declines into old age he loses contact with reality, falling increasingly inward.
Almost everything is language. It not only influences thinking, but thinking itself is also language. Language is everything that one can produce and take in signs, no matter whether it is about seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling. Today this is mostly called „communication“, but I continue to call it „language“. We cannot get around language. It accompanies us constantly. We use it. We would have to become lifeless in order to no longer perceive it, to no longer realize it, to no longer use it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 9:10 pm

Satyr wrote:
Suffice it to say that memes/cultures follow the same cycles as genotypes/phenotypes.
A peak of maturity followed by a slow decline into old age, vulnerable to parasites, viruses and all kinds of diseases.
Language corrupts thought, and like genetic mutations, eventually leads to death.
As a man declines into old age he loses contact with reality, falling increasingly inward.
Would you say that your theory about genes and memes is based on Dawkins?
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 9:17 pm

Kultur wrote:
Would you say that your theory about genes and memes is based on Dawkins?
On a very superficial level, since I've never read Dawkins but have watched some youtube debates and interviews involving him.
I've heard the term "meme" and the idea of the "selfish gene"...

My theory is deeper, getting into the source of nihilistic ideology - which I consider a coping mechanism - and form there I develops memes as extensions of genes, spread linguistically.
I saw parallels between genetics and memetics down to how they propagate....and made the connection with Dawkin's :selfish gene" with the "selfish meme".
But my theory goes deeper and describes parasitical-memes, and nihilistic-memes in symbiosis with genetics, e.g., promoting particular survival strategies.
Dawkins, as far as I know, denies race, fearing for himself and his career, or perhaps being himself infested by the common memetic bug infecting "western man".

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 9:21 pm

Form instance I go into what language is- i.e., an art form...and then I explain what art is, i.e., an externalization of a mind's lucid self-knowledge and self-understanding, and like all technologies an externalization of abstractions via
different mediums.
I've also traced nihilism back to the emergence of self-cosnciuosnes, necessitating a reactive ideological - abstracted theoretical - defence founded no semiotics.
Therefore, memes also project outward what is occurring esoterically, and not always lucidly conscious.

I use "ego" to describe the lucid par to self-cosnciuosness.
So, nihilism is the ego's defence against rising objective perception of self, which is a source of greet anxiety.
Nihilism is a defence against self-awarness.

The parasite-meme Gaad Sad spoke of in the vid is but the tip of the iceberg.
If we do not comprehend the rest then memetic parasitism is not entirely understood.
For example, what does parasitism exploit to infiltrate and usurp the host's will?
It's anxiety, seeking help, seeking existential and social relief.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 9:47 pm

Satyr wrote:

For example, what does parasitism exploit to infiltrate and usurp the host's will?
It's anxiety, seeking help, seeking existential and social relief.    

Sounds like the prototypical female to me.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 9:53 pm

Yes, parasitism is feminine in its methods.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySat Feb 20, 2021 6:41 pm

Happy birthday, Satyr.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySat Feb 20, 2021 6:48 pm

Well, thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyWed Feb 24, 2021 8:02 pm

I think, both forms of higher human culture will soon reach the end of their cycle, their completion. It is possible that we will soon see (a) a new higher human culture form, (b) two new higher human culture forms, or (c) no higher human culture form at all (I have not considered the primitive human culture form here because it does not belong to the higher human culture forms). That will depend on whether what has to do with the current agenda of the globalists will work: the establishment of a new culture form by means of "artificial intelligence" ("AI"). This new cultural form would also be capable of carrying within itself, as a metaculture, several cultural forms subordinated to it. Whether this will happen, however, I do not know.

Americanism is the last stage of Western-Christian (Faustian, as Spengler called it) high culture. This high culture is as good as completed - whether one evaluates this negatively or positively. Such completions are inevitable.

The other, which will also be completed soon, is the metaculture, now 6000 years old, which contains all these high cultures. Not only, but also the monotheistic religions have contributed to this completion.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyThu Feb 25, 2021 6:43 am

Spengler used the terms Faustian and Magian to describe the difference between Indo-European spirituality and Afro-Asiatic spirituality.

Magian is logocentric. It believes the universe is rational, or conscious, using terminology that alludes to some form of cosmic intentionality. The goal is to return to the divine oneness by transcending the corporeal/material towards the attainment of the spiritual, which for them means pure noumenon, purified idea/ideal - mind.
They've presupposed it - top<>down emoting/thinking - and then try to rationalize it.
The experienced world is false, a concealment for the true, the real, world, i.e., occultism, obscurantism, mysticism.
It tends to produce the priestly psychology, and superstitions. Words/Numbers have magical powers.

Their tendency to believe that the experienced world is illusory, and that there is a more real reality beneath/above it makes them nihilists.

Hellenism has no such goals, although it has entertained the mystical and the Afro-Asiatic influences, due to its geography and its openness to ideas and spiritual traditions.
Hellenism is about balance - mind/body in harmony, real/ideal in harmony - the goal is to attain symmetry/proportionality - beauty - the highest form of human order.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyThu Feb 25, 2021 7:03 am


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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyThu Feb 25, 2021 7:28 pm

To prevent misunderstandings:

I have used the expression "Western-Christian" only to prevent misunderstandings, because some readers do not know what is to be understood exactly by "Faustian", and since it concerns with a culture always also a space and this should be generally understandable, I have used the expression "Western-Christian", which is also not fundamentally wrong, because it designates the area, in which also the Faustian is at home. The Faustian is at home there, where also the Western-Christian - the Catholic/Protestant - is at home. However, not every Catholic/Protestant is automatically also a Faustian. So once again, Christianity is not Faustian.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyThu Feb 25, 2021 7:41 pm

I include Christianity among the big-three, e.g., Judaism, Christianity, Islam.
Protestantism is the Christian variant closest to Judaism.

When ideologies/dogmas come in contact with one another there's an exchange - an interactive cross-contaminaiton.
In this case Christianity was born when Judaism came in contact with Hellenism - Judaism was also affected by splintering into three general variants: 1-Ortrhodox Judaism - the original - 2-Political Judaism, e.g., Marxism, postmodernism etc. - secular Abrahamism - and 3-Social Judaism, e.g., Zionism - returning to tis origins in paganism.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 26, 2021 7:02 pm

Satyr wrote:
I include Christianity among the bif-three, e.g., Judaism, Christianity, Islam.
Protestantism is the Christian variant closest to Judaism.

When ideologies/dogmas come in contact with one another there's an exchange - an interactive cross-contaminaiton.
In this case Christianity was born when Judaism came in contact with Hellenism - Judaism was also affected by splintering into three general variants: 1-Ortrhodox Judaism - the original - 2-Political Judaism, e.g., Marxism, postmodernism etc. - secular Abrahamism - and 3-Social Judaism, e.g., Zionism - returning to tis origins in paganism.    
What do you mean by "bif" and by "secular Abrahamism"?
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyFri Feb 26, 2021 7:04 pm

It was a typo - "big" three = Judaism, Christianity, Islam....all have Abraham as an iconic figure.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySat Feb 27, 2021 6:19 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySat Feb 27, 2021 6:44 pm

Did Socrates' - via Plato - change his mind or did he realize that his ideas were dangerous in the minds of the common, and that they - the layman - need a mystical superstition full of positive rewards for living a virtuous life, and negative penalties for living a life surredered to vices, to keep them from going insane or becoming tyrants?

The masses need a lie to believe in.

The past is not worshipped but surpassed - a father must raise his son to become more than him.
The past is not denied - negated - because it is eternally present - presence is past made present.
Hatred of the body - the physical - is an expression of a hatred of one's own inherited past; one's own presence, as it is experienced through appearances.
I intend to burn my body after I am dead - already told my son to do so. This doesn't not mean i deny my past, only that I return my body to that from where it came from - accelerating the process - allowing the future to unfold without a physical reminder of my presence. I want to remembered as body in motion, not as corpse - or through my deeds and my beliefs and judgments and choices - my actions.
I don't expect my son to do as I did, but to do better.

There is no "thing" there is only energy interacting - dynamic. "Thingness" is a mental construct - necessary to conceptualize a dynamic fluctuating existence.
Energies with patterns are perceived, those without patterns are chaotic and are not perceived but affect us through their interactions with ordered, i.e., patterned energies.
It is chaos which makes the future different from the past - necessitating our conscious participation, through our judgements and choices.
There is no "thing" that act; there is only act.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySat Feb 27, 2021 6:56 pm

Every culture intends to create a particular kind of man - based on its ideals.
Every culture produces multiple civilizations, each with their own variant of the cultural ideal.
Every culture has a particular harmony with the environment it evolved within, inevitably producing disharmonies as it progresses to intervene upon it.
Every culture has its own semiotic utility - some engaging and other disengaging from natural order.

Besides intents, every culture produces a particular kind of man.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySat Feb 27, 2021 7:16 pm

Even the muscles and organs involved in the creation of a vocal sound, forming words of a particular language, exposes the relationship between a people and the environment they evolved within.
I wonder if a study has been made about it.

Shared words reveal shared origins - it is the external expression of a common genealogy, i.e., ethnicities, races.



Languages, like DNA, can be transmitted from peoples to other peoples - via intercourse.
When the transmission is across relative ethnicities it is more harmonious, but when transmissions cross unrelated ethnic lines then the product is something novel - corruptions/mutations ensue severely warping the original.
I will go as far as to say that something this transmission produces infertile products - like mules.
Sophisticated software can be installed on outdated computers but they will not function properly, or not to their full capacity.
And there is always something lost in translation.

the fact that linguistic families do not perfectly correspond to ethnicities - due to historical factors, like conquests, migrations, etc. - means that it is a secondary source of identity, after genetics.
Genes and then memes...and then actions, corresponding to body/mind/nervous system as the synthesis of the two.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 8:08 pm

Does anybody know more about John David Ebert and Masaman?

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 8:21 pm

"Historical pseudomorphoses I call cases in which a foreign culture lies so powerfully over the country that a young one, which is at home here, cannot catch its breath and not only does not attain to any formation of pure, own forms of expression, but not even to the full development of its self-consciousness. Everything that rises from the depths of an early soul is poured into the hollow forms of alien life; young feelings freeze in ancient works, and instead of the awakening of one's own creative power, only hatred against the distant power grows to gigantic size. This is the case of the Arab culture. Its prehistory lies entirely in the realm of the ancient Babylonian civilization, which for two millennia has been the prey of changing conquerors."
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 784-785 (translated by me).
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 8:27 pm

"The pseudomorphosis begins with Actium - here Antonius should had won. It was not the decisive battle between Romanity and Hellenism that was fought out; that was fought out at Cannae and Zama, by Hannibal, who had the tragic fate of fighting not for his country, but for Hellenism. At Actium, the unborn Arab culture stood against the aged ancient civilization."
- Oswald Spengler, Der Untergang des Abendlandes, 1918-1922, S. 788 (translated by me).
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyMon Mar 01, 2021 9:44 am

Quote :
Does anybody know more about John David Ebert

I bought his book called Hyper Modernity which I recommend. He does have a somewhat mystical perception of things at times, but an overall sound thinker with tons of knowledge and view of things from multiple angles.
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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyMon Mar 01, 2021 9:48 am

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I might pick it up.

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PostSubject: Re: The Rise and Fall of Cultures. The Rise and Fall of Cultures. EmptyThu Mar 04, 2021 10:25 am

Kulturland = Gotland ?
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