Difference between carnivore and herbivore, is the delicacy of the digestive system. for the grass eater, the one who discovers world through proxies, through the graceful vegetation of letters forming words, grasses forming meadows, the taste of meat is disgusting, disturbing, and when it does taste of it it is usually its own placenta, its own nails, its own hair....devouring itself. It remulchifies what has grown on rolling grasslands or in thickets, growing wild....or it can be directed into enclosures and cultivated lands, by omnivorous farmers wanting their own pound of flesh.
The meat eater knows of the surgeon's scalpel, of its teeth crushing bone, tearing into flesh. It has no patience for the scribe's delicate touch, its dull, soft, gaze. The surgical meat eater knows that without blood there can be no progress, when time is a factor.
A "monster" it would appear to the delicate heart of the patient regurgitator.
Only the omnivore can understand them both.
What have we become, we Modern "thinkers" but docile, herbivores, with large multiple stomachs that cannot stomach flesh and blood? What have we become, directed by our anxiety, but ground feeders, grazing on fields opened and seeded by clever omnivores - proxies between grass eaters and flesh eaters?
How can you become what you've never been, what it is not inside of you to emerge. You may imitate, and pretend, but be? Your digestive system decided your taste, and what nutrients you can digest, and at what speed you can process and include them into your organization. The length and delicacy of your peptic system, has determined your tastes.
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Satyr Daemon
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The carnivore exploit's the herbivore's patience, its investment of time, its commitment. It appropriates the energies these herbivores have collected, and processed, as one large gain, requiring risk in place of time. The risk to time relationship is the path-of-least-resistance, versus the path-of-most-resistance relationship - potential cost/ potential benefit as it is evaluated by the particular brain's judgment. Self-Knowledge, and then knowledge of other, is central in the production of a good judgment.
This huge influx of condensed energies, as flesh/blood, is what makes larger brains possible - the brain being an organ requiring the most energy of all the other organs in the unity we call organism. The body to size relationship defines the human species as the one who must expend more energies towards the maintenance and working of its brain than any other organism.
And what is the purpose, the function of a brain? Judging cost/benefit, after it has distinguished, differentiated, phenomena.
Tolerance is for herbivores what risk is for carnivores - the potential cost for a desired benefit.
Time <> Tolerance/Risk are in balance in omnivores, in relation to their goal, the motive.
This tolerance is the basis of social behaviour in all species: herbivores/omnivores/carnivores
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Lyssa Har Har Harr
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For the herbivore, domesticated by an omnivore, it feels as if it is with its own, until the day when he comes to drag one of its own to the slaughter, never seeing it again. Then it believes it is in the company of a wolf in sheep skins, a heartless, bloodthirsty manipulative, beast - a cannibal.
For the carnivore, domesticated by an omnivore, it feels as if it is with its own, until the day of its training, forced into labour, and enduring the injustices of unfair sharing wit one who does less work and consumes its share with the accompaniment of plants. Then it believes it is in the presence of a monster, a bully, an totalitarian despot - a god.
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Satyr Daemon
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A herbivore sits masticating huge quantities of grass, regurgitating and girding relentlessly. It produces huge quantities of flatulence; methane its brethren tolerate.
It thinks it deserves to be heard, though it is a creature with no logos, and when it speaks it is with those simple vocalizations that spontaneously rise up form its stomach, pushed up and out with its muscled diaphragm.
It is a creature of the stomachs.
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Satyr Daemon
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Inspired by a book, written by an anonymous author titled:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. It supports the ideas we've been discussing on KT.
Right/Left, Conservatism/Liberalism, correspond to the r/K selection strategies.
When resources are in abundance, such as for herbivores, for whom, finding nutrition is relatively easy, the preferred strategy is the r-selection; when resources are scarce, or difficult to come by, such as for carnivores, the preferred strategy is K-selection. When environmental conditions shift, sometimes towards times of superfluity, and other times towards austerity, along with this environmental change, the r/K distinctions shift, sometimes towards the r-strategy, sometimes towards the K-strategy.
Basic characteristics of both groups is this:
r-Selection {Herbivores}: Promiscuity, no in/out group identity, low inter-group competition, low, to no, investment in child-care.
K-Selection {Carnivores}: Monogamy, severe in/out group identity, high inter-group competition, high investment in child care.
We already see how Modern systems of safety, abundance, promote r/selection. There is no reason to be careful with your actions when the cost is low, or non-existent. Austere, demanding environments, or specialized survival, such as carnivorous strategies, necessitate care, and risk management. Bigger brained species are always omnivorous, or exclusively carnivorous. One reason is the high energy demands of the organ we call brain. The brain evolved to manage need, so as to not become suffering, but to make that cognitive leap towards higher intelligence, such as a brain which can be empathetic, can foresee and prepare, can solve complex problems, stress produced by environmental austerity must be coupled with nutrition that can supply the development of a organ with high-energy demands, such as the brain.
Hedonism, liberalism, the laiser faire, ideologies of Utopianism are idea(l)s evolved in times of abundance, and relative ease. Such minds need not attach, face, the world outside the premises that support the safety and abundance they require to dream, to indulge with carefree abandonment, to splurge energies with no focus, with no care, to play, to experiment...reflected also in the art, and the sexual behaviors produced during such times. The Left has always been about idealism free from any worldly realities - ideals born of affluence, comfort, and leisure. Their words need not connect to anything real; their noumenon need not refer to anything phenomenal, but can remain noetic, pure abstractions, referring to other brains, who share in the idea(l). The individuals reverts to a child-like state, where (s)he is at play, is exploring his/her body and what ti can do, how it feels; sensations, emotions, dreams, ennui turning to artificial stress, such as sports, movies, adrenaline producing activities, and so on. In these times the higher brains will become creative, rather than procreative, leaving the lower types to seek out distractions, narcotics to deal with their abundant energies, distractions to deal with their border. This produces internal turmoil, restlessness, born of over-indulgence, and accumulated libidinal energies requiring a method to release themselves outwards.
Philosophies evolved during such times will reflect this abundance, expressing it as a universal overflowing, and/or an perfection, an order already present, manifesting in ignorance of perfection, requiring enlightenment, a change of attitude etc.
Austere, severe, demanding environments produce a different effect in the organism evolving within them, or in organism which have specialized in a type of survival characterized by long periods of lack and short periods of abundance. The higher cost of nutrition acquisition, in energy and risk, imposes a more aware mind, a more careful disposition. Violence s now an option, because unlike the r/selection types, the herbivores, nutrients cannot be accessed elsewhere with ease. A more creative, lucid, brain evolves, one which becomes artistic when times of affluence come, and restless as well, because the brain evolved to deal with survival and the problems it inflicts upon the organism. When the brain is entirely taken over by the demands of the environment it has no time to think of utopias, and how things ought to be, but is busy trying to outperform the other, to out-think his prey. Libido is directed towards pro-creativity, and creativity, with a specific focus - it cannot afford to waste energies.
The selection process is one of superior dominating the inferior, and not like with the r-types where quantities weeded out by environment over time, suffices. r/Types produce prey, K/Types produce predators.
In our modern times of abundance, victim-hood has become an idea(l); the strategy of uncontrolled breeding, and let the environment weed out weakness dominates; hedonism is rampant, sexual promiscuity the rule (both physical and emotional infidelity qualifies); everything is about pleasure with no focus or concern for the outcome, or the costs, or the reasons; words detach from their references to world and become toys to play and dream with - creating fantastic realms populated by minds seeing endless possibilities, as there is no reality to limit these possibilities with its order; identity, also detached from nature/past, becomes another fashion statement, a trend, with no us and them, but a rainbow coloured US.
Returning to the feminization contexts: times of abundance reduce the population to a state of adolescence, or the feminine, whereas times of austerity, when the world demands to be reckoned with, and problems are REAL, rather than surreal, emotional trivial - Nihilism as the annulment of objective world and the escape in subjectivity becomes popular.
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Satyr Daemon
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is a douche-bag, but he offers a good synopsis of r/k/ selection. He hints at racial differences, without coming straight out and saying it. He also hints at the ongoing memetic fragmentation that produces a division similar to a species/genetic divergence.
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This relates to Calhoune's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and explains why Europeans emerged dominant, after the Ice Age, why the Renaissance happened after the Black Plague, and why Jews dominate, after the Holocaust.
r/ & K/ selected brains explain, brilliantly, not only Right/Left political dynamics and psychologies, but differences between races, and male/female psychologies.
It also explains ILP versus KT approaches to world, and to philosophy.
Human nature is not nurture over nature, but it is the sum of all past nurturing, imposing itself upon the present, what we call nurture/training/education/experiences, forcing the brain to make a decision, directing itself using the agency we call "will". Human beings are not "fee" and self-determining as they want to believe they are. Their tastes and inclinations, their dispositions and attitudes are not random, because they are organisms and so are organized, ordered, which is the opposite of random, and a limitation/restriction of possibilities.
There is, obviously, a potential for free-will, for choosing the path-of-more-resistance, but this is a topic for another time.
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In this section he alludes to the idea I have also mentioned, that genes alter and are transmitted to the fetus up until the time of ejaculation, primarily from the father's side, because sperm are produced daily. Sperm are update continuously...the data is added to the gene continuously, in the male, and this data is passed on to the child.
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Satyr Daemon
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As it relates to r/K/ selective strategies…. A farmer creates a protective area within which he chooses what traits to cultivate. He continuously, pushes back nature, weeding out unwanted, by him, phenomena, such as species, traits, and conditions. He creates a sheltered space to allow particular types/traits to flourish, for his own benefit, based on his particular tastes (personality, organ hierarchy) as determined by his past/nature but also to the particular organ hierarchies within himself, determining the degree determining his specific tastes. The farmer, the nurturer/cultivator (education/training, eugenics, social selection) intervenes upon the species he is cultivating weather directly, by choosing which individual organisms will reproduce (control of their sexuality the very foundation of their identity as species), or indirectly, by creating a protective arena within which the individual can roam “freely”, but who is manipulated by the farmer’s authority (weeding out, for slaughter, those possessing traits the farmer considers undesirable, thusly controlling the choice and selection processes within his enclosure, his farm, his greenhouse).
This is what I call "sheltering" which is the foundation of Modernity, and Nihilism as a desirable attitude within the farmer's enclosure, his farm.
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Satyr Daemon
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Taste... as sensual awareness. An interpretation of otherness. The interpretation is determined by the level of awareness of what is being tasted. Taste... as preference. A relationship of “I” with “other”. The preference is determined by the previously mentioned, level of awareness, and the individual needs, directing it towards an idea(l), an object/objective. The object/objective need not be self-conscious, as in consciousness of consciousness. An animal's taste for salts, fats, need not be lucid, only part of an automatic predisposition, directed by trial and error (past, nature), natural selection, and/or social selection, if the period of socialization is sufficient enough to produce a genetic redirection along memetic lines. The good/bad, as with the superior/inferior, are determined by the outcome, the attainment or approach to the object/objective – it is a value judgment where the "towards... " of Becoming is juxtaposed against the intention, the idea(l), the object/objective. This, in turn, is understood by the observer's lucidity, clarity, regarding this object/objective, this intended idea(l). This understanding is measured by the detail included within it, in other words by the sophistication of the pattern being revealed. The mind's ability to express, explain, define, this idea(l) exposes its understanding, lucidity, in regards to it. This enhances the approach; it does not guarantee it, as other factors are also in play (inherited weaknesses strengths, circumstantial effects and so on). A less sophisticated mind will remain, relative to a more sophisticated mind, on the superficial level, of generalities, that are uniformly distributed. A more sophisticated mind will distinguish minutia, more subtle patterns, which will make the object/objective more precise in that it will be less uniform – its generalities will be nuanced. It will experience an increase in options, proportional to its awareness of nuances. A simple mind tastes wine, a more delicate palate, senses more, and so its choices are more precise. A simple mind sees humanity; a more delicate judgment sees fragmentation within the general sexual category of species. The superior mind will include in its generalities the inferior mind's perspective, as the recognition of a pattern with no subtleties. The inferior mind has no capacity to understand the higher mind's perspective, and so it simply integrates it into its uniformity, as an ambiguity that mystifies and/or that it can dismiss as pretentious. If it comes to believe in the latter, the more comforting possibility, it will conclude that sophistication can be faked, imitated, learned – parity in potentials. If it comes to believe the former it will succumb to idol worshiping – surrender to authority, the specialist, God. This follows the same path as self-awareness does, as awareness of other is an awareness of self in other, or otherness in self. Identity, the sense of self, is dependent on how far back the mind can go to access experiences, and how detailed its understanding said experiences are. Therefore, one can have fewer experiences than another, and still perceive a greater depth in them, and someone can have more experiences and still remain superficial in his understanding. Furthermore, one can attain understanding through second-hand experiences (knowledge, training), to a greater degree than another, if the other cannot distinguish patterns in them which can be combined with personal (first-hand) experiences to create a cohesive model. The cohesion of the mental models (abstractions) expose the mind's sophistication, as the inferior one adopts them, without truly understanding them, resorting to compartmentalization, and a schizophrenic consciousness, to maintain them as plausible. The more sophisticated taste will also taste what the less sophisticated tastes, but also more. The superficial will not be discounted, but it will be integrated. It might compromise, if need be, but still prefer according to its more refined awareness, as this is determined by its own organic hierarchies. The less sophisticated taste can never share in the more sophisticated taste's awareness, and so it may pretend, or reject, or admire, trying to attain the rewards of this higher awareness through association. The sensation of subtleties leads to divergence, not agreement. The more the mind becomes aware the more possibilities/probabilities become presented to it.
Taste, therefore, has two meanings: ---Awareness, as in the sense of taste, sensual acuity, an interpretation of otherness. ---Preference, as in an attraction to, a disposition towards, as this is determined by need or organ hierarchies producing structure of prioritizing needs.
Want can be used as a word/symbol referring to a socioeconomic, cultural, object/objective (ambition, goal), which promises the satisfaction of needs. Desire can be used as a word/symbol referring to a libidinal relationship to the object/objective, a sexual tension connected to needs. Procreation, is the precursor to the creative act – art. It is the projection of an object/objective, which promises a satisfaction of need. Need, the word/symbol referring to the consciousness of an absence. The absence is this lack of a static, of an absolute, a lack of order in a linear disordering state we call existence, interpreted as a void that requires constant feeding. That Flux also implies an ordering, simultaneous to the disordering, need not apply, since life, is only possible in relation to entropy – it being an ordering within a “towards disordering/entropy”, or “towards increasing randomness”. Taste becomes a cognition, an evaluation, of what promises a higher state of ordering, as this relates to the particular organism's method of self-organizing, its internal organ hierarchies as these have been inherited – produced by nature.
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Satyr Daemon
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The farmer constructs, and constantly maintains, the conditions within which r/selected individuals can flourish – reduction of predation (monopolized by him), abundance, not found outside his controlled environment, and direct intervention upon the species sexual choices (ostracizing, quarantine, and slaughter/killing). The only one permitted violence, is the farmer himself, and it is he who controls the quantities of resources that trigger r/selection – and/or feminized traits.
In time and with more aware species, such as humans, the domesticated product, raised within a sheltered, controlled environment, is turned into a defender of his own enclosure – given the task to maintain the artificiality, because the individuals can no longer survive outside of it – co-dependence. Like the domesticated wolf, and/or wild dog, the animal now works on behalf of the one who restricts its freedom and dominates its activities. It is now in the service of the farmer’s will. The farmer may now recede into the background, in comfort - his presence and interventions becoming more inconspicuous - allowing the domesticated organisms to take over the functions required to maintain and increase the sheltered environment. The domesticated organisms now domesticate themselves, in accordance to the farmer's original principles, direction - the meme is such a imposition of the principles/morals/ideals to be used within the farm, the sheltered/protected, artificial environment. The domesticated organisms use themselves as the template to select the desirable traits, and to enforce particular traits within the enclosure – the processes are now independent from the farmer direct intervention, after he’s establishes the starting premises and he maintains a fencing between his farm and the wilderness outside it – he becomes a gatekeeper, an warrior, and/or a priest.
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Satyr Daemon
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Natural selection (sum of all nurturing), produces specialization: focus on a particular food/energy source. The herbivore, omnivore, and carnivore are designations of nutritional specialization, in turn producing the physical/mental traits necessary for that specialization to be successful – to be fit. Each specialization, then, specializes further, as a doctor is a specialist who can choose a more focused specialty in healthcare. Sub-categories develop to take advantage of more focused nutrition/energy sources, also producing specialized reproductive methods. This is what produces different species.
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Satyr Daemon
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The r-strategy entails five main psychological traits. Each trait is designed to help an organism out-compete peers in the r-selected environment of free resource availability. This psychology also exhibits a tolerance for, or embrace of, promiscuity, low-investment single-parenting, and early onset sexual behavior among offspring. It will also tend to not exhibit any group-centric urges, such as loyalty to in-group, or hostility to out-group. Of these five traits, (competition aversion, promiscuity, single parenting, early on set sexuality, and aversion to group-centrism /ethnocentrism ), political leftists exhibits a tolerance of , or an embrace of, all five.....
The K-strategy entails an embrace of five opposite psychological traits. K-selection favors an aggressive embrace of competition and the competitive environment, where some individuals succeed, and others fail, based on their inherent abilities and merits. It tends to reject promiscuity in favor of sexual selectivity and monogamy, and it will strongly favor high-investment, two-parent offspring-rearing. The K-strategy also favors delaying sexual activity among offspring until later in life, when maximally fit. Finally, in its most evolved form, K-selection will tend to imbue individuals with a fierce loyalty to their in-group, to facilitate success in group-competitions. Danger, shortage and conflict are the evolutionary origins of the pack mentality, and they are ever present in the extreme K-selected environment.
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Satyr Daemon
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Converting a naturally evolved K-type to an r-type would require strict control of the environment, such as on a farm, and the artificial introduction of abundant resources, such as would not be found in the environment naturally. The imbalance is the impact of artificial upon natural. The artificial environment, a product of continual and consistence interventions, must appropriate energies from other environments, severely depleting them locally, resulting in mass extinctions, so as to construct and maintain superfluity within this controlled environment. The organism is now out of sync with the world that made it possible - this is how I've defined artificial, in relation to natural. The cocooned, sheltered time/space, the farm, the wilfully ordered environment the organism inserts itself within, forgetting there is an outside world (subjectivity denying objective standards), begins impacting the organism in proportion to the organism's impact on the environment intervened upon.
From naturally oscillating r/K selecting strategies, the controlled environment favours the r-type - feminization; r-types are more manageable, less resistant to external manipulation. Ease is resource acquisition, makes the r-type simpler of mind. It need not prepare, predict, care. Cynicism increases, because the individual feels no concern, being protected from the worse consequences. All it must be able to do is physically determined: work, run, groom etc. it's mind is minimally engaged.
This is reversion to adolescence. No care means the mind can play, knowing nothing can harm it, nothing severe will happen to it, no matter what it does. Seriousness in the choice, is reduced, and with it the need to be aware, to discern patterns, details, to distinguish and discriminate decreases - dumbing-down. Like children play, knowing the parent is watching over it, the Modern only wants to play, to experiment, to explore, without a care in the world: unreserved, uninhibited, fearless.
In nature there is still the predator to watch-out for so with manmade environment things are even worse than in natural ones - the r-type tends towards an extreme; self-absorption (subjectivity); pleasure seeking to deal with ennui (hedonism with no price - a win-win scenario); impressionability (lack of clarity, naivete); cynicism (skepticism towards all outside of the self - the noetic/abstract, and those that support personal needs/ideals); complacency (the "It ain't so bad" attitude, which must be dealt with by introducing controlled stress, fake stress, to keep the rats running); indifference (the "Who gives a shit?" cynicism of Modernity, laughing it all away); the nothing matters outside current human systems/communities and their relationships their compromises and agreements (the inter-Subjective communal solipsism, and Nihilism of Modernity - meme usurps the gene)
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Satyr Daemon
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From simpler to more complex.... r to K. Simple because low investment in quality is compensated for by volume, in production of quantities. Obsession over numbers and popularity is a given.
The first method would have been r-selection, given that it is the simplest and the easiest method to have evolved; K-selection needs more complexity to specialize, and would have to evolve larger brains, or more niche oriented tactics.
Bacteria are r-selected. Large reproductive capacity needing low expenditure of energy - gestation and parental care, would use chance to deal with environmental shifts, and therefore larger brains, more discriminating complex minds would be excessive, if not detrimental to this strategy. Large reproductive capacity needing low expenditure of energy - gestation and parental care, would use chance to deal with environmental shifts, and therefore larger brains, more discriminating complex minds would be excessive, if not detrimental to this strategy. In the Quantity-or-Quality dilemma r/ is for quantity and K/ for quality.
We see the correlation between this genetic tactic and the political/moral/social ideals it produces: emphasis on prod
uction, on quantities, on all inclusive, on detachment from in-groups and from nature/past, promotion of hedonism, increase in cynicism, shallowness, non-discrimination, passivity, "individuality", detachment form world, obsession with subjective internal beliefs unconcerned and unaffected by anything outside of them... and so on.
And here, we see the strategy producing more discrimination, larger and more complex brains, foresight/hindsight, emphasis on family and the young, care & awareness, loyalty, a strict behavioural code, attachment to reality, objectivity...and so on.
Competition between populations of K-Types is fierce. Rules that apply internally, do not in relation to the other group. In both the r-types emerge due to the K-Types success. A natural balance as a cyclical process.
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Satyr Daemon
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r/K selection Theory offers an unexpected support of my positions on energy appropriation, accumulation and libidinal pressures, needing to explode, expand outwards. When the environment offers abundance, with minimal effort (low cost relative to benefit) hedonism and promiscuity increases because the organism can satisfy its self-maintenance needs easily, and then it can accumulate excess energies which pressure it to discharge them. The arts flourish, exploring surreal, the un-real, philosophical discourse expands to include the absurd, the pure theoretical (noumena with no contact with phenomena), human activities enter the area of superfluity, the impractical is made more practical, the inefficient is not so risqué; the excessive is not decadent, it is pleasing, relieving. Libidinal energies amass, continuously with ease, and discharging them seeks easy, convenient, ways. The human condition is overflowing with possibilities, with potentials: the inherited limits can be stretched with the flood of internal power, directed by a Will, which is overwhelmed by the excess available to it.
Like a child who inherits his father's wealth, and did not earn it, the r-type grows in a culture of plenty, of relative ease, of excess. What energies it accumulates it does not value as much as he would have if he had to struggle to accumulate them. His psychology becomes spoiled, he demands new, better, ways, more novel ways to direct energies that accumulate, as if magically, as if the universe was providing of its bounty. boredom is the bane of such minds. The obsession over novelty, with more intense experiences of pleasures, is a Modern phenomenon - modernity, as we know it, is the cultivation of r-selected types. for them, all is about pleasure, the next fix. They know not what austerity is, having only experienced a world of easily attained resources, or resources present, they only have to earn access to. The world is experienced as a world of plenitude, of overflowing, of infinite possibilities - a child's dream world: Never-Never land.
What's there to do in Never-Never Land other than play, than soar, that confront the bad guys and win? There is no “never” in NeverLand , the contradiction can be laughed away with a child’s twinkle.
Do your homework, listen to mommy and daddy, clean your room, and the food is on the table, the blanket on the bed, waiting to warm your dreams and melt your fears. A subsidiary of the Walt Disney dream factory boys and girls dream of staying young forever. Their only allegiance is to their hopes, and expectations, their addiction to magical realms and beautiful landscapes, brimming with spectacular possibilities.
But I can guess, from what I've read, that the solution is that the cycles repeat. r-type dominates when the K-Type produces safety, and then r-Type fucks it up, and all implodes.
The same as what happens when herbivores multiply due to excess food and no predation, then they deplete the food sources, as the carnivore populations rise, depleting the herbivores, to the point where not too many carnivores can find food, and plants increase in numbers, and the carnivores decline, which makes the herbivore populations rise.
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Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
If altruism is kin-selective, but liberals also promote alien-welfare, which environment selects for it - r or k?
Is 'altruism' kin-selective when it is applied not according to blood? For European man the current 'altruism' is more like anti-kin-selective if anything.
Slaughtz
Gender : Posts : 2593 Join date : 2012-04-28 Age : 33 Location : A stone.
If altruism is kin-selective, but liberals also promote alien-welfare, which environment selects for it - r or k?
Is 'altruism' kin-selective when it is applied not according to blood? For European man the current 'altruism' is more like anti-kin-selective if anything.
You are mentioning something I attempted to explain earlier but I was unsatisfied that I could not extrapolate more so I abandoned it mid-writing. Since you mention it, I wanted to add as well, what I wrote:
The k/type produces an environment of efficient use and creativity. The creativity (sometimes) creates an environment of abundance. The best strategy becomes r/type in this abundance.. the r/type by definition must be able to utilize the abundance which the k/type created. Unfortunately there arent a lot of examples of this being done on the scale which humans have been able to, so I will use a fiction: A k/type fish that creates an abundance of sea water is able to utilize that sea water to grow enormously. So that same fish has to now change to r/type in response to other r/types taking advantage of this abundance. However, the work of the k/type fish, the abundance of sea water, does not affect the strategies of humans (not fish)... humans cannot benefit from sea water, so they do not increase in r/type behaviors so they retain their current level of balance between r/type and k/type behaviors. (Ignoring they can benefit from the increased populations of fish for food).
The way for k/types to preserve their strategy is to have an in-group preference. They keep the abundance they create to themselves and for themselves, amongst themselves only. Giving the abundance to those who would propagate r/typical behaviors would fundamentally undermine the value of the k/typical strategy of efficiency. The k/type has a slight interest in maintaining an environment that favors their k/typical reproductive strategies. They did well at such strategies and they have now practiced for it and trained their offspring for it. The r/types only severely threaten the k/types via quantity over quality when they have access to the abundance.
The actual push and pull of these strategies aren't binary nor simple. It's not only about abundance of inanimate resources but also what the competition looks lIke - threats from those of different or same species.
Further thought after rereading: The spoiled/sheltered kid thinks in the world there is an abundance, when it is only for him that there is abundance, so he acts more as an r/type, even with k/type parents.
On a personal note, growing up with intermittent periods between my family being poor and relatively well off, I have been influenced by a mix of those strategies. I believe it was said that males have their epigenetics affected all the way until puberty. My parents divorce took place at the tail end of the beginning of puberty for me. At 7 years old my mother was mentally absent (mental illness). However I never had a problem with getting basics met. This kind of emotional turmoil/stress combined with physical safety might cause a particular sort of mentality where I am sympathetic to both strategies at their extreme. If I was "spoiled" much more than I was, I might have leaned more towards an r/type strategy. If it were not for my father providing that stability and predictability, I might not have those sympathies to k/type that I have today.
Last edited by Slaughtz on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:07 am; edited 2 times in total
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
If altruism is kin-selective, but liberals also promote alien-welfare, which environment selects for it - r or k?
Is 'altruism' kin-selective when it is applied not according to blood? For European man the current 'altruism' is more like anti-kin-selective if anything.
Altruism is kin-selective within Satyr's definition of k-groups, which is what I was referring to.
I wanted to ask Satyr if k-altruism flourishes more as a result of resistance in an r environment or natural k habitats; was watching this:
Out-group specific altruism, like what's common among modern europeans, I don't think fits into the r/K strategies. It's something else. It's a strategy which benefits the out-group at the disadvantage of the the one practicing it, therefore it's more parasitical in nature. The cucK, let's say, is tricked to devote energy, time and resources to rearing young which are not of his genetic lineage. Cuckoos do this to other birds, for example.
In the case of europeans, it becomes racist, bigoted, exclusionary, etc to not give resources, time and energy to the various needy brown peoples. Helping your own then does not have the same moralistic reward or virtue and so one cannot status-signal by helping one's own kind exclusively - it has to be the Other. This also has the marxist element: from him with ability, to him with need. It is the responsibility of europeans as high achievers to devote the product of their achievement to those who are lesser. Ability becomes a mark of servitude, to the greater body, the greater number, of parasites.
Perhaps you could call this parasite strategy P-selection or something.
_________________ "I do not exhort you to work but to battle; I do not exhort you to peace but to victory. May your work be a battle; may your peace be a victory." -TSZ
Anfang
Gender : Posts : 3989 Join date : 2013-01-23 Age : 40 Location : Castra Alpine Grug
All that made me write about 'High trust societies'…
This is something which I’ve come across on TRS podcasts. I think there comes the realization that your loyalty, your productivity,…, to society is not being rewarded with social status, nor access to good quality women (which includes their age and mentality they’ve obtained living in contemporary society), often not even particular material gains. Why is that? The/Their answer is - Because somebody is exploiting the high trust society.
What is this high trust? I think it’s tied to feminization. It’s when European man lost his teeth and tribal and family bonds and boundaries were dissolved. The warmth which was once found in the K-type tribes was then spreading throughout society and diluting itself; Altruism became about symbolic display (social signalling); Genuine altruistic behaviour became increasingly spilling drops of blood into the ocean - a waste of energies.
So who is feeling exploited? The feminized man with K-type personality traits. The cuck of 50 or a 100 years ago was at least still rewarded with social accolades for his sacrifices. Today his cuckoldry is openly displayed. But is that really bad for the cuck? A sweet lie or the cold truth.
High trust society? Can only work for so long when the herd is large. It can work for as long as the K-type personality and their qualities are abundantly present but their numbers dwindle. The high trust society is the classic* liberal's domain.
*Who is the modern conservative.
Last edited by Anfang on Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Slaughtz
Gender : Posts : 2593 Join date : 2012-04-28 Age : 33 Location : A stone.
Out-group specific altruism, like what's common among modern europeans, I don't think fits into the r/K strategies. It's something else. It's a strategy which benefits the out-group at the disadvantage of the the one practicing it, therefore it's more parasitical in nature. The cucK, let's say, is tricked to devote energy, time and resources to rearing young which are not of his genetic lineage. Cuckoos do this to other birds, for example.
In the case of europeans, it becomes racist, bigoted, exclusionary, etc to not give resources, time and energy to the various needy brown peoples. Helping your own then does not have the same moralistic reward or virtue and so one cannot status-signal by helping one's own kind exclusively - it has to be the Other. This also has the marxist element: from him with ability, to him with need. It is the responsibility of europeans as high achievers to devote the product of their achievement to those who are lesser. Ability becomes a mark of servitude, to the greater body, the greater number, of parasites.
Perhaps you could call this parasite strategy P-selection or something.
I can see where it might actually fit within r/k type strategies.
It is the logical end of Christian egalitarianism. When a k/type imagines reproach from society, they imagine it being from other k/types with enough influence over their social positions to significantly affect their progeny. In the struggle for power, promoting an r/typical ethos amongst your competition can benefit you, if you retain the k/typical strategy. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.. likewise the k/type in-group is only as exclusive as its least exclusive member who may be leaking resources and feeding the r/type masses.
Humans fundamentally need eachother for particular crafts and etc. to remain competitive amongst other humans. Imagine a town fully self sufficient... there's a blacksmith, multiple farmers and masons, etc. Together they have held off armies upon armies from breaching their walls. If you can make an ingroup farmer sympathetic to and engage in trading with your outgroup, you have sowed the seeds for infiltration of the town both mimetically and physically.
This is what the zionist Jews did, they promoted r/type amongst all but themselves, taking advantage of the Christian ethos to pressure Europeans into accepting that all are equal. One should give freely to all as if they were all your brother/sister. This altruistic draining of resources within Europeans equalized the playing field for minorities. Allowing the rise of the Jew, who would otherwise be on the fringes with other minorities. Then when they work together to advance themselves and their people, they have the anti-Semitism card to guilt their only real competition, the Christian European male.
extra... It's in the r/type societies that the exploitation of the weak, ephebophilia, etc. is a rational strategy for reproduction. Get them pregnant as often and early as possible to produce the most offspring. Quantity over quality. In k/type you wait for full development and the other to prove themselves as adapted well to a k/type environment.
As Anfang said, the MRA cucks today are the boys who would be granted access to females and social accolades when performing well for the group. With no more group to perform for, or a group of which they perform for where they get only a pittance of gratitude in return, they turn away from it. They see themselves as having a choice between being alone or working hard for a pay off they think is too insignificant. At least if they turn away, they think, there's a chance to build again somewhere else. Except there isn't. They were never prepared to face off against this tide of dysgenics that took over the ethos of their ingroup.
The altruistic was preached as being good but it was rarely put into practice before the massive civil right movements that started their complaints about how the Christians preach equality but do nothing to address it. The agitators just used what was already there and directed it. Changing the definition of human to all colors and not just white, etc.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
Under this chart wrt. the child section, you can see why Europe is such a deadlock.
Xt. is such a hybrid of r-altruism with k-values.
If we are going to speak of parasitism, then you see it here. Xt. families with utmost care for children and yet also preaching universal brotherhood and r-altruism.
This is Satyr's 'schizophrenia'.
I am only wondering how useful this R/K paradigm is if it cant differentiate between Anglo-Saxon Xt. conservatives - r-k and Pagan conservatives - k-k… The overall R/K paradigm makes Orthodoxy look good. Russia bans homos and other creeps, and orthodoxy is praised… but this only means, its the Trojan horse that is Xt. that is growing… Is a Xt. without r-altruism as good as paganism? The R/K paradigm levels them on par. For me, that's no good. But it gets complex, when its r-altruism that lets Xt. soldiers fight on the front for causes that help k-values...
one could say, after long durations of accumulation, k-societies would inevitably give way to r-ones. Altruism in any sense means 'the shedding of energies that threaten to overwhelm the individual/society'. The move from stable to precarious equilibriums that cause innovations is just natural. In other words, the pic. of 'exploitation of High-trust' is almost a false flag… Its not all that innocent. A pressure cooker needs to open its valve to let its steam out. This is self-serving, and nothing benevolent abt. it.
And this was Bataille's point.
What happens to a society that no longer lets you expel excess energies as it used to through war that like a good sneeze, integrated you back all the more firmly?
Sloterdijk gave the answer.
Soft violence, soft wars, soft strategies… communist rage banks growing with interest, perpetually deferring… to this immigration 'crisis'. You become so 'cooked', squashed under unreleased pressure - dumbed down - you are at a low energy that causes rel. high energy states to flow into you.
If you cannot project energy you become agressive, restless, irritated - at least, that have I; but I have read some time ago that the lack of porn could have been an important factor for the more easily ignition of violent eruptions among people against (..) - though I think there is too much emphasis on that if you simply take in factor everything in contrast with the industralized world. All energy upon mass production, no more value to know from the land, lesser preservation of older values pre-Xtiananity, the selective breeding over time too. And today all the investment upon the ideal, the economy, sports to integrate the whole of humanity under a shared logo and release energy within the stadiums through sports and through watching and cheering or rioting; the television, the schools especially, especially with all those women (schools will never be healthy with women allowed to teach).
Of course we live in a giant farm; any form of civilization is more or less a farm, the value and borders of outcome simply determine the quality we value for ourselves if the traits are chosen in accordance.
Wars can be healthy, but I doubt Hitler wanted a total war like he had to fought because this costed a lot of healthy men and energy from women whom he wanted to direct upon, beside procreation, also upon development in arts and taste and the unspecialized overall traits; while the elderly and sick stay behind together with the specialized to increase mass production of weapons during war.
I also started to read the book and like Satyr the hedonist (/tourist) came into my mind with their rabbit traits; though there is also an interesting book on the sexual and natural selection of certain bird breeds, the most; the most agressive (black neck feathers) had good chance upon breeding, the inter-mediate (black/grey white neck feathers) the best and the ones who only had white feathers were never violent, and each had their own territory but the white feathered ones were tolerated everywhere because instinctively they knew they are not agressive, not territorial and the females of that specific bird breed on Texel never ever select them, as they are the selectors with whom they want to breed. Why even care about the presence of a weak type of men in their breed if they in general won't even be potentially chosen as mate.
_________________ 1. "Youth, oh, youth! | of whom then, youth, art thou born? Say whose son thou art, Who in Fafnir's blood | thy bright blade reddened, And struck thy sword to my heart."
2. "The Noble Hart | my name, and I go A motherless man abroad; Father I had not, | as others have, And lonely ever I live."
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37186 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
Out-group specific altruism, like what's common among modern europeans, I don't think fits into the r/K strategies. It's something else. It's a strategy which benefits the out-group at the disadvantage of the the one practicing it, therefore it's more parasitical in nature. The cucK, let's say, is tricked to devote energy, time and resources to rearing young which are not of his genetic lineage. Cuckoos do this to other birds, for example.
In the case of europeans, it becomes racist, bigoted, exclusionary, etc to not give resources, time and energy to the various needy brown peoples. Helping your own then does not have the same moralistic reward or virtue and so one cannot status-signal by helping one's own kind exclusively - it has to be the Other. This also has the marxist element: from him with ability, to him with need. It is the responsibility of europeans as high achievers to devote the product of their achievement to those who are lesser. Ability becomes a mark of servitude, to the greater body, the greater number, of parasites.
Perhaps you could call this parasite strategy P-selection or something.
In the book the author mentions how the r-selected type will side with an alien K-Type to weaken the K-type within his own group.
Lyssa wrote:
am only wondering how useful this R/K paradigm is if it cant differentiate between Anglo-Saxon Xt. conservatives - r-k and Pagan conservatives - k-k… The overall R/K paradigm makes Orthodoxy look good. Russia bans homos and other creeps, and orthodoxy is praised… but this only means, its the Trojan horse that is Xt. that is growing… Is a Xt. without r-altruism as good as paganism?
The theory gives general categories of selection, and does not go into the types of selection involved. The christian is also a K-selected type.
Then we must explore the types of K-types selected and how they compete. r-type, as i understand it, is the type that emerges when the particular K-type becomes successful, ensuring resource and safety, and comfort.
The Rabbit is really a bad example because rabbits evolved to consume resources in abundance in nature, but when it comes to K-types that emerge among carnivores, or omnivores, such as Humans, then the K-Type makes the r-type possible within its own groups. It is a symptom of decadence, and the beginning of the decline.
_________________ γνῶθι σεαυτόν μηδέν άγαν
apaosha Daeva
Gender : Posts : 1849 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 37 Location : Ireland
In the book the author mentions how the r-selected type will side with an alien K-Type to weaken the K-type within his own group.
What would you call the type that specifically targets the r-type within a predominantly K-type group in order to exploit the r-type's ressentiment towards his own and undermine that group as a whole? An omnivore?
Is it possible to immunize human group psychology against this kind of subversion?
_________________ "I do not exhort you to work but to battle; I do not exhort you to peace but to victory. May your work be a battle; may your peace be a victory." -TSZ
Satyr Daemon
Gender : Posts : 37186 Join date : 2009-08-24 Age : 58 Location : Hyperborea
In the book the author mentions how the r-selected type will side with an alien K-Type to weaken the K-type within his own group.
What would you call the type that specifically targets the r-type within a predominantly K-type group in order to exploit the r-type's ressentiment towards his own and undermine that group as a whole? An omnivore?
The K/Type will use any method to deal with his adversary.
apaosha wrote:
Is it possible to immunize human group psychology against this kind of subversion?
