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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptySat Nov 20, 2021 5:36 pm

Paganism, rooted in nature, idealizes conflict and the process of coopetition, maintaining diversity in all contexts - genetic and memetic.
Spiritually this was expressed as the conflict between deities, each god rising or falling in power by the quantity and quality of his/her followers.

Abrahamism is totalitarian. It cannot tolerate competition and strives to eradicate all alternatives.
It is Messianic and teleological in that it wants to make its monopoly universal and final.
Its narratives are absolutist and always involve completions, ends, world-wide dominion - either/or solutions to the "problem" of multiplicity, e.g., if not absolute oneness - with no competing alternatives, then absolute nil, Armageddon, a end of need/suffering in a uniform abyss - absolution.
It cannot endure uncertainties and gradation, because this is existence and experienced existence is the source of "evil".
Goodness is the end of experience existence either in a positive oneness - positive nihilism - or in a negative negation - pure nihilism.
Multiplicity, interactivity, dynamic existence is the source of need/suffering and so must end, one way or another.
Which method and end will end it is what nihilistic spiritual and ideological dogmas propose.
Utopias, Paradise...some final, complete, end.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyTue Jan 11, 2022 8:22 am

Paganism remains open to multiple interpretations because tis foundation is in natural order and how it selects the superior form the inferior.
This was clear among the Greeks who tolerated many gods, forms of worship, philosophies...not imposing their own on others but also not intervening to protect them from the consequences.

This is the problem with Abrahamism and all forms of spiritual and secular nihilism. It doesn't only insist all be left to live in their own private universe, or a collective alternate reality, but it also insists that the consequences be collectivized, i.e., universalized.
They cannot tolerate alternatives because they fear their own may be inferior.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyTue Jan 11, 2022 10:32 am

I told the imbecile, that used to frequent ILP, that Harris is of the "chosen" and his thinking is immersed in Abrahamism.....as is Marxism, even though he believes he's overcome those ancient superstitions, feeling superior to anyone still stuck in them.
Even when these circumcised ones believe they've transcended Abrahamism it is their minds that have been "symbolically circumcised", lobotomized, - mind instead of body - and their thinking remains trapped in the same Afro-Asiatic world-view.
These recovering Abrahamics are the worse. They suffer the arrogance of a child that has overcome its belief in infantile fairy-tales but not of their underlying moralistic messages. These they carry with them, unable to break free form their effect on their thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyTue Jan 11, 2022 10:56 am

Indo-European world-views, if they remain true to their heritage, begin from the tangible, the perceptible, what nihilistic Afro-Asiatic spirits refer to with a condescending air, as materialism.
Matter, itself, is energy interpreted, i.e., translated, abstracted, in a useful way that multiplies an organism's survival potentials - reproduction being an evolutionary way of overcoming cellular limitations that impose a restricted temporal duration to cellular divisions that deal with temporal attrition, or the effects of continuous interactivity.

It does not remain there.
As I've said....the triad is from physis, "down" or "into" metaphysis, and then "upward", "outward" towards idealism.
The sequence begins with body, towards mind and then its abstractions.
Afro-Asiatic Magian spiritualism begins with the abstraction, then moves towards mind and finally, as an afterthought, it engages the body.
This follows the path of feminine seduction, or how magic affects the body via the mind, using logos, i.e., semiotics.
Inversion of the Indo-Euroepan sequence - Body>Mind>Idea - to the Magian Afro-Asiatic inverted sequence - Idea>Mind>Body.

Nihilism is this inversion.
A defensive reaction to a world that is considered to be "evil", "corrupt", "illusory"...unjust, superficial, non-existent etc.
This inversion is clearly evident in Postmodernism, as it was in Marxism.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 4:33 pm


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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 5:34 pm

Man intervenes upon nature and preserves what she has deemed to be unfit to continue, and by preserving it man imposes his will upon her.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyFri Aug 26, 2022 7:36 am

Paganism is not a religion, it is a relationship with nature.
Quote :
Pagan comes from a Latin word paganus, meaning villager, rustic, civilian, and itself comes from a pāgus which refers to a small unit of land in a rural district. It was a demeaning Latin term (like the word hick), that originally lacked a religious significance.
Timocracy is a return to this relationship.
An individual earns citizenry by proving he can maintain a productive relationship with nature - measured in tangible goods.
It is why paganism survived in the countryside longer than it did in cities - where man is closest with natural environments - and nihilistic ideologies and dogmas spread in urban environments where man is furthest away, cocooned in artificiality, i.e., abstractinos, semiology, institutionalized, sheltered.
Like all relationships paganism necessitates, objectivity, honesty, humility, trust in one's senses and judgements, patience and persistence, empathy, uncorrupted by sympathy/antipathy, i.e., emotions, an ascetic demeanours in the Hellenic sense, stoicism...

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptySun Sep 04, 2022 9:11 am

Paglia is an example of new-age paganism - or Americanised paganism, i.e., urbanized pastoralism.
Nature cleansed from its injustices and returned to an idealized version of nature.

Another version comes to mind: Judaized paganism, i.e., Zionism - Satanism.
Nature understood through and corrupted by Abrahamic dualities.
Secularized Abrahamism.
This is obvious among atheist neo-cons.
Messianic fatalism replacing Abrahamism's god's will - evident in denial of free-will to imply that all causality is in accordance to some external determining agency.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptySat Sep 10, 2022 5:32 am

Why is, so called, 'paganism' not a religion, like the Abrahamic triad?
It has no sacred scripture that all share.
There is no church, since nature is all.

Individuals can worship nature independently, each in his/her own way. There is no abstraction requiring a mediator to aces it and to interpret it.
Ontology is idealized....rather than idealism ontologized.
Pagan gods symbolize natural phenomena.
Abrahamic religions - being nihilistic - inverted this. They try to find phenomena to validate and symbolize their mental abstractinos of god.
Pagan gods exist outside human brains - anthropomorphizing the world.
Nihilistic Abrahamic one-god exists only in human minds - as idea/ideal - giving a wordily hypostasis to an anthropomorphic ideal.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyTue Sep 13, 2022 8:36 am

Remaining loyal to the gods is speaking the truth, even when it hurts you.
The core principle of Objectivity, beginning with the gradual elimination of self-deceit - to Know Thyself, objectively, unaffected by emotional corruptive baggage, i.e., sympathy/antipathy.
Hellenic asceticism = self-denial not an end but a means.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptySun Oct 02, 2022 5:20 pm

Nietzsche, Friedrich wrote:
114– The un-Hellenic in Christianity.
The Greeks did not see the Homeric gods as set above them as masters, or themselves set beneath the gods as servants, as the Jews did. They saw as it were only the reflection of the most successful exemplars of their own caste, that is to say an ideal, not an antithesis of their own nature. They felt inter-related with them, there existed a mutual interest, a kind of symmetry. Man thinks of himself as noble when he bestows upon himself such gods, and places himself in a relationship to them such as exists between the lower aristocracy and the higher; while the Italic peoples have a real peasant religion, with continual anxiety over evil and capricious powers and tormenting spirits. Where the Olympian gods failed to dominate, Greek life too was gloomier and more filled with anxiety.
Christianity, on the other hand, crushed and shattered man completely and buried him as though in mud: into a feeling of total depravity it then suddenly shone a beam of divine mercy, so that, surprised and stupefied by this act of grace, man gave vent to a cry of rapture and for a moment believed he bore all heaven within him. It is upon this pathological excess of feeling, upon the profound corruption of head and heart that was required for it, that all the psychological sensations of Christianity operate: it desires to destroy, shatter, stupefy, intoxicate, the one thing it does not desire is measure: and that is why it is in the profoundest sense barbaric, Asiatic, ignoble, un-Hellenic.
[Human, All too Human]

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptySat Oct 08, 2022 7:18 pm

Devi, Savitri wrote:
Now, “wherever a solar god was worshipped in Egypt, the habitat of this god was believed to be the solar Disk, Aten or Athem. But the oldest solar god associated with the Disk was Tem or Atmu, who is frequently referred to in the religious texts as “Tem in the Disk”; when Ra usurped the attributes of Tern, he became “the Dweller in the Disk,” while “Horuakhuti (Horakhti) was ‘the god of the two horizons’ i.e., the Sun-god by day, from sunrise to sunset.” To Akhnaton, however, the “Dweller in the Disk,” Ra, is the “Sun by day” and is the Disk itself: Aton. In the inscriptions upon the boundary-stones demarcating the king’s new capital, Akhetaton, the God who is, henceforth, to be the sole God of Egypt, and of the Empire, is actually designated as “Ra-Horakhti-Aton.” And Sir Wallis Budge, whose words are all the more significant while he does not seem aware of their immense metaphysical implication, notes, in connection with King Akhnaton’s conception of the Sun as the sole object of worship: “But to him” (Akhnaton) “the Disk was not only the abode of the Sun-god, it was the god himself, who by means of the heat and light which emanated from his own body, gave life to everything on earth.”
But that is not all. Shu — that mysterious Entity “which-is-in-the-Disk”“we must translate by ‘heat’ or by ‘heat and light,’ for the word has these meanings.” Which signifies that Sir Wallis Budge, “Tutankhamon, Amenism, Atenism, and Egyptian Monotheism” Akhnaton worshipped the “Heat-and-Light-within-the-Disk” — the Radiant Energy of the Sun — which he looked upon not merely as inherent in, but as identical in, nature to the material Disk itself, and to supreme Godhead, whatever be the names by which men might try to characterise the latter, and under which they might worship It.
It is remarkable that, among those names, the young king chose to mention only those of Sun-gods of the Heliopolitan Tradition — doubtless because he considered this to be the most consistent solar tradition that Egypt had known, up till then; and one by far more akin to his own religious philosophy than anything that could be found in the Southern Egyptian school of Wisdom headed by the High-priest of Anon. Throughout his reign, Akhnaton was to stress the connection of his Teaching with the wisdom of the Heliopolitan seers of old, as well as with Egypt’s most ancient political tradition of divine royalty. (He himself, in his capacity of “High-priest of Aton,” took over the title of Ur-ma — “great One of visions,” i.e. “seer,” initiate, — which the High-priest of the Sun in Heliopolis had born from times immemorial.)
But that does not mean to say that his conception of the Divine was exactly that of the priests of Heliopolis. It was not. In particular, “the old Heliopolitan tradition made Tem, or Tem-Ra, or Khepera, the creator of Aten, the Disk, but this view Amenhotep IV rejected, and he asserted that the Disk was self-created and self-subsistent.” And Akhnaton’s notion of “Shu” — “Heat-and-Light-within-the-Disk” — which, to him, is supreme Godhead Itself and the same as the self-created and is self-sustaining Disk, is quite different from that of the “god” Shu, conceived (as in the old “Pyramid Texts”) as the radiation or emanation of Tem, or Tem-Ra, i.e. of the Creator of the Sun-Disk, different and distinct from it, and male counterpart of the “goddess” Tefnut (Moisture, also an emanation of Tem) who forms with him and with Tem the original Heliopolitan Trinity. It is the notion of Divinity conceived as Something absolutely impersonal, and undefinable; immanent in all material and non-material existence, and identical nature both to visible Matter (to the visible flaming Disk, everlasting and self-created) and to invisible Energy — Heat-and-Light — also self-created and everlasting, and inseparable from Matter as Matter is from It.
And this is confirmed by the prayer inscribed upon the famous scarab discovered at Sadenga, in the Egyptian Sudan, and dating from the early period of Akhnaton’s reign. The text, though short (and mutilated), is extremely significant. The God to whom it is addressed, and who can only be Aton (for he bears some of the titles that characterise Aton in other texts) is called “great One of roarings” or “great One of thunders,” as though the king — and that, already before he had changed his name and entered into open conflict with the priesthood of Amon and with the traditional gods of Egypt, — had identified his one and pre-eminently solar God with a Stormgod.
But, as I have tried to point out in another book, coming from him, the worshipper of “Heat-and-Light” in the Sun-beams, such an identification can hardly mean anything else but the recognition of the equivalence of that very same “Heat-and-Light” to thunder in particular and to sound in general and, above all, to Lightning (Heat-and-Light inseparable from thunder), and to that mysterious form of energy, the presence and tremendous power of which Lightning and Thunder merely reveal: electricity, possibly better known, to the wise men, at least, in remote Antiquity, than we modern people, in our conceit, care to believe. We cannot help thinking, here, of the “threefold Agni” of the Vedas — Sun, Lightning, and Fire upon earth (and within the earth); Heat, Light, and electric Energy in one, — as well as of the modern scientific Idea of the equivalence of all forms of energy, and of the fundamental identity of Energy and Matter.
All this makes it clear that Aton — the Solar Disk which is the same as the “Heat-and-Light-within-the-Disk” — is none other than He-She-It — That — which is the Essence of all material and immaterial existence; the undefinable Essence both of Matter and of Energy — “matter to the coarser, and energy to the finer senses” — which is God. Not any God to, be compared with the loving “heavenly Father” of the Christians or with any personal God — least of all with the ill-tempered, narrow-minded and jealous tribal god Jehovah, created in the image of the Jews, — but the equivalent of the immanent, impersonal Tat — That — of the Chandogya Upanishad, no less than of das Gott (as opposed to “der Gott”) of the ancient Germans, and the one conception of Divinity that modern science, far from disproving, on the contrary, suggests.
Such a God can neither “love,” in the all-too-human, Christian sense of the word, nor hate; nor give “commandments” and distribute rewards and punishments in the manner of a human king; nor perform “miracles” if, by such, one means actions in real contradiction with the iron Laws of Nature, which are His Laws; nor be “the Maker” of the world “out of nothingness,” in the sense a craftsman is the maker of an object, external to himself, out of metal, stone or clay.
There is no common measure between Him — between Him-Her-It, — and the current conception of “God Almighty” as it exists to-day in Christian or in Mohammadan countries, or, rather, among pious people in countries where the influence of Christianity or Islam — any of the two great international monotheistic religions issued from Judaism, — has shaped religious and metaphysical ideas. And although He — He-She-It — be (substantially) less remote from the unknown and undefinable “Neter” or “pa Neter” — “God,” or the God behind all gods; formless, original creative Power, which existed of and by Itself, within the primeaval watery mass, Nenu, — of the most ancient Egyptians, than from that nowadays more popular conception of Divinity, He is different from him to the extent that “Neter,” according to the moral Papyri,1 is still, for all practical purposes, endowed with a certain amount of anthropomorphic personality. Aton — Cosmic Energy, Essence of all existence; “Ka,” or Soul of the Sun (to quote a word from Akhnaton’s own hymns) identical to the Sun-disk itself and Essence of the material world — corresponds to a thoroughly impersonal and positive conception of Godhead. And, provided one takes the word “religion” in the sense the average modern European does, i.e., in the sense of a system of beliefs centred around a personal God, an ideal of conduct “according to his will” and a definite conception of life after death, H. R. Hall is right in saying that Akhnaton’s “heresy” was “a philosophic and scientific revolt against religion” rather than a new religion.

Lightning and the Sun
This is hat Abraham appropriated - plagiarized, and corrupted to fabricate his envious, vindictive one-god, that ought to be one, over all other gods.
gm's appropriating memes (corrupting) and genes (krypsis).

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyTue Nov 15, 2022 8:47 pm

Does paganism describe the relationship between the spirit of man? and the spirit of the afterlife? Seriously? And in all these years no one has been bothered by this interpretation of man's SPIRIT? I don't see the connection between paganism, the spirit of man and the spirituality that is not inherent in the pagan gods. It's not so much the religion involved as the principles of séances to meet other spirits. In pre-Christian times, people lived in this incarnation of the demonic world, where paganism and the worship of gods (their own or fictional ones) were considered normal. Spirituality can be spoken of in the context of Christianity, as here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], but it has nothing to do with the Bible.


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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyTue Nov 15, 2022 8:57 pm

Why would anyone be "bothered" by an interpretation that implied that the mind can survive the body?

My interpretation of 'spirit' = mind/body synthesis.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyWed Dec 14, 2022 3:57 pm

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This is a book about Scandinavian mythology published in 1909 so provides a non-modern useful perspective. This subject has been so marred by american pop-culture as to be almost unsalvageable, but it is worth a look. eg part of the creation myth:

Quote :
The gods, in Northern mythology called AEsir
(pillars and supporters of the world), having thus
triumphed over their foes, and being no longer engaged
in perpetual warfare, now began to look about them,
with intent to improve the desolate aspect of things
and fashion a habitable world. After due consideration
Borr s sons rolled Ymir s great corpse into the yawning
abyss, and began to create the world out of its various
component parts.
The Creation of the Earth
Out of the flesh they fashioned Midgard (middle
garden), as the earth was called. This was placed in
the exact centre of the vast space, and hedged all round
with Ymir s eyebrows for bulwarks or ramparts. The
solid portion of Midgard was surrounded by the giant s blood or sweat, which formed the ocean, while his bones
made the hills, his flat teeth the cliffs, and his curly
hair the trees and all vegetation.
Well pleased with the result of their first efforts at creation, the gods now took the giant s unwieldy skull
and poised it skilfully as the vaulted heavens above
earth and sea ; then scattering his brains throughout
the expanse beneath they fashioned from them the
fleecy clouds.

What's interesting about this is that it implies creation first requires destruction. The giant Ymir must be slain before his body can be refashioned into the world. It is not simply created out of nothing without price or sacrifice. Something had to end so that something else could begin.
It also shows that the world itself has divine significance. It was fashioned out of the defeated remains of an evil entity by the gods themselves. The world, nature, is itself the physical remains of a divine-equivalent being. Not some other realm, but the world we live in. It is itself divinely significant. Evil has been mastered, defeated, yoked and put to a sacred purpose. The world is both good and evil in the sense that the gods master their opponents and put them to a purpose, which is the world.
The giants aren't even evil really, they're just a rival tribe of supernatural beings. There isn't the absolute either/or dichotomy of semitic mythology. There is a lot of intermarriage among the factions. Odin had a giant mother, apparently. Elves and dwarves descend from maggots who began breeding in the dead flesh of Ymir, but humans were fashioned by the gods themselves from wood; Ash and Elm.

Other things like Odin sacrificing his eye for knowledge of the future, including his own inevitable demise, hanging himself from the Yggdrasil Tree to gain knowledge of runes have similar implications. To gain something you must lose something. The truth is often unpleasant, and disillusioning. Knowledge requires personal sacrifice. Of delusions, of peace of mind, of comfort. It seems to me like the people who invented these myths understood something that many moderns don't.

I haven't read it all but it might be interesting to someone so I posted it here.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyWed Dec 14, 2022 4:06 pm

I think it's common in all pagan cosmogony that destruction is a necessary part of creation.
Gods aren't good or evil...and they certainly are not perfect.
Like nature; like the world.

The ultimate state of destruction is chaos: destruction of order.
From this chaos order is reborn.
The chaos isn't perfect either.

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PostSubject: Re: pagan religion pagan religion - Page 13 EmptyFri Dec 16, 2022 4:20 am

The focal point of Abrahamism is an 'Absolute' God, implying absolute certainty and finality (Fatalism), a position that all can and must believe in, an infinite authority, perfect and flawless.

The reason for this is its appeal to the Nihilistic desire which underlies Abrahamic religious fundamentalism and belief.  They cannot stand 'imperfect' gods, because that would not fulfill their Nihilistic, life-annuling, death-seeking motivation.
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