Question Time

How does chaos birth order?

How do patterns exist without intention?

How does a pattern become attractive or repulsive?

WendyDarling wrote:

How does chaos birth order?

Order is a restriction of possibilities - probabilities.
So, chaos, lacking a predictable repeating order means order can emerge from it spontaneously.
It is inevitable that it will, given enough time.

WendyDarling wrote:

How do patterns exist without intention?

Will, intentionality, is a product of a combination of patterns - order.
Order, by itself - a specific pattern - requires no intentionality.

WendyDarling wrote:

How does a pattern become attractive or repulsive?

If we think of a pattern as a vibration - call them energies -, or an osculation, with a specific sequence, rhythms, rate, then patterns that are similar are more in harmony - less fiction between them.
Patterned energies that are most dissimilar - disharmonious - interact with more friction.
This friction, or lack of, is what we experience as attraction/repulsion.

Keep in mind that existence has no void - all is energy - so the interactive relationships of energies are constant - space/time.
Existence = dynamic interactivity - energy.
'Interactivity' means constant repulsion/attraction between different kinds of patterned (order) and non-patterned (chaos) energies.
This constant interactivity also increases - expands - and fragments, due to this constant interactivity - therefore chaos increases.

***************
In ancient pagan cosmogony world emerged from chaos. 'World' meaning what is perceptible, what is ordered.
In Eastern traditions Ying/Yang represent this order/chaos dynamic, symbolized by the well known symbol.
In all order there is chaos; in all chaos there is order.....no absolute states.
Complete - perfect order - as the one described by nihilists including Abrahamics an d those still recovering from this superstition - implies a state that not only contradicts experience but makes experience impossible.
Absolute order = certainty, or singularity, conceptualized as a one-diemsional point - no space/time.
Absolute chaos = infinity, conceptualized as a state of no probabilities, therefore no matter/or perceptible energy, i.e., no repeating, predictable, consistency, which is fundamental to life and consciousness.
Absolute chaos is more difficult to conceptualize by an organism. It implies a state where everything is simultaneously possible, and there is no probability to restrict it; a state where life and consciousness is impossible, yet as we approach this near absolute state - without ever attaining it - the possibility of a near-absoltue singularity spontaneously emerging - as the one represented by the Yin/Yang symbol - is inevitable.

***************
What differentiates living patterned unities, i.e., organisms, from non-living patterned unities is intentionality, i.e., will.
Will is not a theory, it is an act.
We experience it daily and constantly as living beings, i.e., organisms.
It is the focus of whatever dynamic interactive energies are assimilated into our organization towards an objective.
This is intentionality. This focus on an objective.

Non-living patterned unities of energies have no intent - they simply interact in accordance with attraction/repulsion dynamics - or resistance.
Their direction determined by this resistance relative to their combined force.
Living unities, i.e., organisms, can move towards more resistance....in fact this is necessary for its self-maintenance; its survival.
Intent - will - is what distinguishes living unities from non-living unities, like a stone, or a cloud, or a planet.

***************
Free-will applies to this intentionality.....so denying it implies that life and non-life are the same.
A plant and a stone, are the same; a cloud and a bee, are the same; a man and a grain of sand, are the same....fated to simply do what it cannot choose to resist, taking a different path, with no objective at all.
The difference now becomes about the unnecessary awareness of its own futility - so what they are describing is a sadistic existence that determined life in order to increase suffering.
This corresponds to the Abrahamic superstitions concerning existence as a "fallen state" - a hell.
Difference between the Abrahamic and secular versions is that the former consider this a test followed by a reward - but a test where the results are already determined - whereas the latter deny this but consider it a repeating fate with no reason and no objective; suffering for the sake of suffering; a state of a determined increasing awareness of impotence to increase suffering.
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Satyr wrote:

WendyDarling wrote:

How does chaos birth order?

Order is a restriction of possibilities - probabilities.
So, chaos, lacking a predictable repeating order means order can emerge from it spontaneously.
It is inevitable that it will, given enough time.

WendyDarling wrote:

How do patterns exist without intention?

Will, intentionality, is a product of a combination of patterns - order.
Order, by itself - a specific pattern - requires no intentionality.

WendyDarling wrote:

How does a pattern become attractive or repulsive?

If we think of a pattern as a vibration - call them energies -, or an osculation, with a specific sequence, rhythms, rate, then patterns that are similar are more in harmony - less fiction between them.
Patterned energies that are most dissimilar - disharmonious - interact with more friction.
This friction, or lack of, is what we experience as attraction/repulsion.

Keep in mind that existence has no void - all is energy - so the interactive relationships of energies are constant - space/time.
Existence = dynamic interactivity - energy.
'Interactivity' means constant repulsion/attraction between different kinds of patterned (order) and non-patterned (chaos) energies.
This constant interactivity also increases - expands - and fragments, due to this constant interactivity - therefore chaos increases.

***************
In ancient pagan cosmogony world emerged from chaos. 'World' meaning what is perceptible, what is ordered.
In Eastern traditions Ying/Yang represent this order/chaos dynamic, symbolized by the well known symbol.
In all order there is chaos; in all chaos there is order.....no absolute states.
Complete - perfect order - as the one described by nihilists including Abrahamics an d those still recovering from this superstition - implies a state that not only contradicts experience but makes experience impossible.
Absolute order = certainty, or singularity, conceptualized as a one-diemsional point - no space/time.
Absolute chaos = infinity, conceptualized as a state of no probabilities, therefore no matter/or perceptible energy, i.e., no repeating, predictable, consistency, which is fundamental to life and consciousness.
Absolute chaos is more difficult to conceptualize by an organism. It implies a state where everything is simultaneously possible, and there is no probability to restrict it; a state where life and consciousness is impossible, yet as we approach this near absolute state - without ever attaining it - the possibility of a near-absoltue singularity spontaneously emerging - as the one represented by the Yin/Yang symbol - is inevitable.

***************
What differentiates living patterned unities, i.e., organisms, from non-living patterned unities is intentionality, i.e., will.
Will is not a theory, it is an act.
We experience it daily and constantly as living beings, i.e., organisms.
It is the focus of whatever dynamic interactive energies are assimilated into our organization towards an objective.
This is intentionality. This focus on an objective.

Non-living patterned unities of energies have no intent - they simply interact in accordance with attraction/repulsion dynamics - or resistance.
Their direction determined by this resistance relative to their combined force.
Living unities, i.e., organisms, can move towards more resistance....in fact this is necessary for its self-maintenance; its survival.
Intent - will - is what distinguishes living unities from non-living unities, like a stone, or a cloud, or a planet.

***************
Free-will applies to this intentionality.....so denying it implies that life and non-life are the same.
A plant and a stone, are the same; a cloud and a bee, are the same; a man and a grain of sand, are the same....fated to simply do what it cannot choose to resist, taking a different path, with no objective at all.
The difference now becomes about the unnecessary awareness of its own futility - so what they are describing is a sadistic existence that determined life in order to increase suffering.
This corresponds to the Abrahamic superstitions concerning existence as a "fallen state" - a hell.
Difference between the Abrahamic and secular versions is that the former consider this a test followed by a reward - but a test where the results are already determined - whereas the latter deny this but consider it a repeating fate with no reason and no objective; suffering for the sake of suffering; a state of a determined increasing awareness of impotence to increase suffering.
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If patterns of energy are some-thing(perceivable), what is chaos? If all is energy, chaos is as well, right?

WendyDarling wrote:

If patterns of energy are some-thing(perceivable), what is chaos?

Consciousness perceives and interprets energies that ate consistent, repeating, predictable as 'things'; as matter, energy, liquid....depending on their sequential rates relative to the observer's sensory acuity and brain's processing speeds - its metabolic rates.
Sequences with rates slower than its own are perceived as solid matter; sequences faster are interpreted as liquid or gaseous...etc...within the ranges of its evolved acuity.

WendyDarling wrote:

 If all is energy, chaos is as well, right?

Yes, chaos is energy lacking a repeating, consistent, predictable, pattern.
All that exists is dynamic and interactive - the term I use is 'energy' replacing Kant's 'thing-in-itself- and Schopenhauer's 'will' with what is more accurate.
Organism's, like humans, can only conceptualize fluidity - flux - by reducing it to ideas based on common traits - creating categories.,
So the multiplicity of existence is reduced to two general categories, e.g., order/chaos, and then reduced to a single idea, energy.


I've explained why I consider the term 'energy' more precise, rather than 'will', even if 'will' is more intimate and so more appealing to idealists; and why I prefer it over the more vague and imprecise 'thing-in-itself'.

What could be the cause for chaos to suddenly(spontaneously) become order? Which do you think is true…the energy of existence, is finite and being rearranged spontaneously or is energy birthing more energy?

WendyDarling wrote:

What could be the cause for chaos to suddenly(spontaneously) become order?

Chaos, as randomness, is what makes order possible, and roder, as I've defined it, is what produces chaos.

WendyDarling wrote:

Which do you think is true…the energy of existence, is finite and being rearranged spontaneously or is energy birthing more energy?

Nothing "births energy"....energy is, and has multiple forms, types.
The two general types are order/chaos, differentiated as I described.

Since life is based on and dependent upon order - patterns - for life order is perceptible and what it calls 'world'....higher order it calles beautiful.
So, for living organisms, like man, order is existence.....the extent of his perceptual horizons....and is only recently realizing there might be more.
For example Dark Matter may be chaotic energies.

Furthermore, life experiences existence as linear time - time = change - from near-absoltue order (Yin/Yang, Big Bang) towards near-absoltute chaos - expansion towards infinity.
Objectively speaking existence is a cycle from one to the other. One universe producing the next, and then the next.....eternally.
Not all of these iterations produce life.

Satyr wrote:

WendyDarling wrote:

What could be the cause for chaos to suddenly(spontaneously) become order?

Chaos, as randomness, is what makes order possible, and roder, as I've defined it, is what produces chaos.

WendyDarling wrote:

Which do you think is true…the energy of existence, is finite and being rearranged spontaneously or is energy birthing more energy?

Nothing "births energy"....energy is, and has multiple forms, types.
The two general types are order/chaos, differentiated as I described.

Since life is based on and dependent upon order - patterns - for life order is perceptible and what it calls 'world'....higher order it calles beautiful.
So, for living organisms, like man, order is existence.....the extent of his perceptual horizons....and is only recently realizing there might be more.
For example Dark Matter may be chaotic energies.

Furthermore, life experiences existence as linear time - time = change - from near-absoltue order (Yin/Yang, Big Bang) towards near-absoltute chaos - expansion towards infinity.
Objectively speaking existence is a cycle from one to the other. One universe producing the next, and then the next.....eternally.
Not all of these iterations produce life.

How is chaos turning into order and vice versa when spontaneous is only explaining the suddenness of the transformation?

If nothing births energy, then you believe energy is finite?

Each wave continues on eternally in a different pattern and/or a different frequency in an evolutionary cycle?

WendyDarling wrote:

How is chaos turning into order and vice versa when spontaneous is only explaining the suddenness of the transformation?

Don't know what that means...but yeah.

WendyDarling wrote:

If nothing births energy, then you believe energy is finite?

Energy is another way of saying 'existent'....how you get 'finite' from this, I don't know.

WendyDarling wrote:

Each wave continues on eternally in a different pattern and/or a different frequency in an evolutionary cycle?

Every pattern interacts and this causes attrition, reducing the pattern to a lower state, and producing energies that lack pattern....thusly interactivity is what causes the expansion of space/time - possibilities - and in this expanding field of possibilities the spontaneous emergence of a near absolute becomes inevitable.
I consider black holes such spontaneous events, that do not quite reach the level of a near-absolute binary, but approach it....thusly they appear to be "dropping out of existence since an absolute would nullify existence.

Nothing - is not nothingness. Existence is no-thing, but only process, dynamic and interactive. and consciousness of existence reduces this, when it perceives patterns, into a 'thing'.
"Thing" exist only in minds and is another way of saying abstraction.
An abstraction - whether image, sound, texture, smell, or idea, - is a reduction of fluctuating interactivity by generalizing/simplifying (translating, interpreting, using evolved a priori methods) down to a level the organic mind can process and store as memory.

What evolves suffices to offer an advantage so it becomes established and passed-on form generation to generation, as adequate - a useful approximation.

Order = predictable. - Limited possibilities, i.e., probabilities.
Chaos = unpredictable. Unlimited possibilities.

Absolute order implies god, or the absence of free-will, as entirely unnecessary. Then [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] these questions arise.
Absolute chaos = absence of probability, making life and consciousness impossible. A state where everything is simultaneously possible.

Free-will is not only possible it is necessary in a intermediate state - movement, momentum (linear time) from near-absolute order (Big Bang, Yin/Yang duality) expanding, exploding, fragmenting towards near-absolute chaos.
Free-will qualifies the act of choice - I always begin with the act, not the idea. Ideas refer to actions....or they are nihilistic.
An organism is a willful agency, an intentional actor, participating in what is being determined - and what has been determined since his birth, inheriting what had been determined by the choices/actions of his parents.
Awareness, judgement, and the act of choice evolved to deal with the unforeseeable and the unforeseeable can only be a product of chaos, otherwise all is predictable, foreseeable, and no judgement nor choice is necessary.

Chaos is both benefactor and life's greatest antithesis.
Man has conceptualized it as evil, or as the ambivalence of a Prometheus or a Satan - the gift giver who condemns man to the 'hell' of awakening to the sate of his existence - human condition.

Satyr wrote:

WendyDarling wrote:

How is chaos turning into order and vice versa when spontaneous is only explaining the suddenness of the transformation?

Don't know what that means...but yeah.

WendyDarling wrote:

If nothing births energy, then you believe energy is finite?

Energy is another way of saying 'existent'....how you get 'finite' from this, I don't know.

WendyDarling wrote:

Each wave continues on eternally in a different pattern and/or a different frequency in an evolutionary cycle?

Every pattern interacts and this causes attrition, reducing the pattern to a lower state, and producing energies that lack pattern....thusly interactivity is what causes the expansion of space/time - possibilities - and in this expanding field of possibilities the spontaneous emergence of a near absolute becomes inevitable.
I consider black holes such spontaneous events, that do not quite reach the level of a near-absolute binary, but approach it....thusly they appear to be "dropping out of existence since an absolute would nullify existence.

Awhile back you wrote that the patterns of energy have always existed which is why non-existence is an impossibility. Is the very same energy spontaneously reorganizing itself in infinite cycles or are new existents made of new energy emerging?

Is energy measurable?

WendyDarling wrote:

Awhile back you wrote that the patterns of energy have always existed which is why non-existence is an impossibility. Is the very same energy spontaneously reorganizing itself in infinite cycles or are new existents made of new energy emerging?

Not the same....the same kind.

Energy simply refers to dynamic, interactivity, or it can be conceptualized as vibration/oscillations.

Cosmic cycles refers to universes.
Each universe "beginning" with a neart-absolute Yin/Yang, chaos/order duality, exploding outwards because it can't ever become a singularity.
Energy changes.
Each iteration of the cycle is never like the previous, or the next.
So, 'eternal return' not of the same, but only eternal return.
Chaos prohibits the repetition of exactly the same.
Considering the eternal iterations we can imagine a repetition of a near copy of this current universe, but since memories are not preserved - unlike what Hinduism claims with its karma - we can never know, and so it does not matter, other than as a test of our current life: our choices and judgements, i.e., our contentment.

Here we see a concerted effort to deny regret, as this is one of the reasons nihilism emerges: to deal with the additional source of suffering self- consciousness, viz., since we only get one run - being fortunate enough to even be born at all - then all our mistakes determine the only life we will ever live; this is a suffering no animal can experience.
Nihilism - as a school of thought - emerges to help a self-conscious animal, like man, to cope with the costs of his self-awareness.
Regret is but only one aspect of it.

Universes are not complete whole, unless conceptualized from a point outside space/time, or existence - outside existence means non-existence....so there is no outside, to perceive the whole, the totality, as one universe.
There is only the perception from within the multiplicity, which can never and will never become a singularity.

Since we do not choose to exist, nor how or where....or as what, makes existence a blessing and, for some, a curse.
Imagine being born as the lowest of the low, destined to live life in poverty, or in suffering...or to be born stupid, or ugly, or whatnot...imagine being born as a child that will die from cancer, or mentally stunted....or so unattractive as to suffer form being shunned and abused...
The tragic/comedy of life.
The lottery win proves to be insufferable to some, who live out a life of misery, unless they manage to find something to enjoy, without the acknowledgment or participation of others.
Free-will allows for adaptation....the probability of it, otherwise existence is being described as a sadistic joke. The very meaning of adaptation - central to Evolution Theory - or of wisdom, or of learning, loses all meaning.

WendyDarling wrote:

Is energy measurable?

Patterned energy is measured....we call it matter, or simply energy.
Chaotic energies cannot. They can only be perceived indirectly, through their unpredictable effects on what is perceptible and measurable, i.e., order, patterned energies.

Patterned energies are measured when they are interpreted as the different kinds of matter, energy....perceiving matter, liquid, gas, is based on a priori evaluations of patterned energies relative to our processing speeds - metabolic cellular rhythms.
When you perceive something as solid matter you've already evaluated its patterned sequential rates and rhythms, relative to your own.
You are the original standard - measure of all. This subjective method gradually becomes objective - using a standard outside yourself - third-person.
This, along with regret, is the other source of suffering self-consciousness imposes upon the mind - the cost of this adaptive benefit.
All good has a bad; all bad has a good.