I understand your broader point, but I'm wary of this kind of hesitation that starts from self-doubting of one's effect on another, and cultural relativisms, where one person's making aware of 'facts' is as good as any other's... For example, chain smoking or doing drugs damaging your health is a Fact to whatever degree it takes over in people. A responsible person makes this aware to another, how they choose to act is upto them. This is not advice but par-taking in "common" sense.
I have no self-doubt about the effect I have on people.
I respect your point of view, but it is not mine, if you are in tune with your child, you know what path to take with them.
One can give facts, print pictures on cigarette boxes of the horrible deformities, all to no avail. People still smoke, people still take drugs and let us not forget the affects of alcohol, which is unfortunately viewed as a lesser evil. I believe you are Irish, (I may be wrong) and found it interesting how you did not include alcohol as a source of damage to one's health. This Survey Consumption and Alcohol-Related Harm in Ireland 2010/2011 Drug Prevalence Survey' was published with these findings, below.
“It is crucial that we as a society reduce the overall level of alcohol consumed in Ireland and also tackle the problems of alcohol misuse. I am determined that effective steps will be taken over the coming period to address problems associated with alcohol across our society."
Last year I went to two funerals, the outcome of o/d's. These were not "kids" these were "should have known better been there done that" people. I would take a wild guess and say a large proportion of those attendees went home and smoked some weed, took a pill, to chill out from the depressing experience.
I believe one must teach by "example".
Didn't you just contradict yourself there - those people returning from the funeral would be smoking weed - so 'leading by examples' aren't that effective - it needs prolonged contact. Leading by example also never makes the other aware of the costs involved in pursuing the Facts... the stakes of what comes close to losing.
The way I see it, Clarity is everything; placing the facts before one then and there. This was the "meaning" of the Agora. Unambiguity.
Perpetual, if I am " compensating " by simply posting a picture of myself in the avatar with a black tank top on and glasses, then what does that say about you and your avatar? At least I, actually, post a real picture of myself as opposed to using some other model's image. I could have posted a picture of me half naked showing off my 6 pack abs if I wanted to, really, get the ladies wet down stairs. But that wasn't my intention, Perpetual. I am proud of myself yes; I have superior genetics compared to most of you here. It's not all superficial, Perpetual. My beauty is a manifestation of my genes, my genetic superiority.
You know what? You are a no bullshit type of person. I like that.
Primal Rage wrote:
I think both Redbeard and Nietzsche would be fond of the Cartels for the most part; the Mexican cartels are incarnations of the will to power. Nietzsche would, probably, be turned off by their hyper-hedonism, though. Redbeard would smile upon it.
This is was ultimate face palm material that made me go after you. After I called you Satyrs sycophant you seem to have rebelled, perhaps you are not as independent minded as you would like to think.
Why did you face palm? You know, Nietzsche wasn't some moral-fag as, ironically, some people paint him out to be. He was above good and evil. He wouldn't be turned off by the cartels because they are " bad " or " evil ". In The Will to Power, Nietzsche actually said criminals were more noble than the average goodie-two-show civilian. Nietzsche would admire them ( the cartels ) because they are not contradicting themselves with slave-moralisms and because of their immense power.
Also, no one is as independent a thinker as you would like to think.
You where subjectifying them according to your own whims. A personal relationship with the texts, and by extension the authors. It's the philosophy, not the actual person that counts. Way to shallowly emotional for my taste.
59.50
That is the actual Ragnar Redbeard. It was all fiction, with a tone of reality to it, therapeutic exhilaration. I don't pretend to know things, but I try, which gives me an advantage over most people.
The opposite of the antinatalist isn't any less pathetic than the antinatalist. Everything gets seen in a limited lens in order to reinforce pre-existing notions, the anti truth seeker.
Last edited by There Will Be Blood on Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
perpetualburn
Gender : Posts : 955 Join date : 2013-01-04 Location : MA
Perpetual, if I am " compensating " by simply posting a picture of myself in the avatar with a black tank top on and glasses, then what does that say about you and your avatar? At least I, actually, post a real picture of myself as opposed to using some other model's image. I could have posted a picture of me half naked showing off my 6 pack abs if I wanted to, really, get the ladies wet down stairs. But that wasn't my intention, Perpetual. I am proud of myself yes; I have superior genetics compared to most of you here. It's not all superficial, Perpetual. My beauty is a manifestation of my genes, my genetic superiority.
You do realize you're just reinforcing what I said, right? "I have superior genetics compared to most of you here?"... Based on what? Your "superior" posts?
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At least I, actually, post a real picture of myself as opposed to using some other model's image
You're real ballsy, we know. If only your posts reflected such "strength."
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if I am " compensating " by simply posting a picture of myself in the avatar with a black tank top on and glasses, then what does that say about you and your avatar?
You're not compensating by "simply" posting a picture of yourself... There's nothing inherently wrong with that... It's your picture in relation to your posts. If you consider my posts of inferior quality and my avatar as compensation, then OK, prove it. It's the most Apollonian picture I could find.
My genetic superiority is based in my past, good-breeding. My beauty is evidence of it.
If you don't find my posts intellectual, so be it. I haven't, really, even written about my more profound ideas. A lot of my posts have been about more practical, mundane things. I'm not saying I'm a genius, but your insinuations are erroneous. And your Avatar doesn't appear Apollonian, but rather Dionysian.
Last edited by Primal Rage on Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
Blood, no one knows for sure who the real Ragnar Redbeard was; the name is a pseudonym. And the book has no resemblance to a satire or fiction. It's passionately written with in your face verbalisms, but it's in no way fiction.
Another thing, my quote about Nietzsche and the cartel was not based in personal whim. I've already stated that Nietzsche admired men of power and men who are not bound by self-contradicting slave moralities. Cartel bosses fit the bill. Sure, I don't know absolutely what he would think, but that quote you selected was an implied inference based in things he stated in his writings.
I would say that my desire for heroism and a warrior ethos is based in the fact that I didn't have a father as child nor any strong male role model figure. As a result, I ended up kind of effeminate and timid ( afraid of the big bad world ).
Self explanatory, make what you will out of it. I don't have the effort, or the knowledge to fully go into it.
For me The Lodger will always of been my greatest philosophic influence, ever since I was 10.
Only until nihlistic tendencies have been admitted can they be overcome.
Yes, Blood, it's true - I used to be that way. But you know what? I don't bury my head up my ass and pretend like it never happened. I acknowledge it and I'm thankful that it happened; it only made me stronger.
perpetualburn
Gender : Posts : 955 Join date : 2013-01-04 Location : MA
He looks rather feminine with the long flowing hair and relaxed facial expression as if he just got done climaxing.
That's what you mean when you say Dionysian?
_________________ And here we always meet, at the station of our heart / Looking at each other as if we were in a dream /Seeing for the first time different eyes so supreme / That bright flames burst into vision, keeping us apart.
What I remember essentially of your initial posts was the reference to and adoration the Mexican Cartel. A first sign of your naivety. Physical beauty is transitory, not to build a castle on, but enjoyed for as long as you have it. You don't need nurturing, you are past that, you need a mentor, someone of substance. What was enlightening was the change in your attitude to those on ILP. You became subservient almost timid, it was then I understood, your makeup.
You had a teacher, a leader, a male, here on this Forum and you turned your back. For what? A short cut to nowhere.
You are at edge of the precipice, what choices you make will impact considerably on your happiness and ongoing development.
There are a few in Forums who have displayed intellectual prowess, but Satyr has individuality coupled with this, which is rare.
I came here lacking in humility gradually coming to realise that I have much to learn and willingly embrace this, taking from Satyr and the other contributors on this Forum their diverse views and sincerity in their quest for truth.
This little Forum, the gem that it is, I hope, will continue to be safeguarded and flourish.
How did I become subservient to members of ILP? I was banned from there eternally for calling Maia a whore! haha I wasn't some cookie-cutter, goodie-two-shoe, submissive spaniel over there. I was, probably, more nasty to people there than I have to anyone here.
I realize that many people look down with supreme disdain upon the cartels, I get it. They are bunch of greedy, thuggish, savage, ruthless people. But I am beyond societal-thrall virtues. I see nature for what it is: an amoral, harsh, indifferent bitch that favors the strong.
Satyr has said himself many times that he is not a messiah, that he is not here to save the inferiors ( which he views me as ). I'm positive he never viewed himself as a mentor to me.
Good hearing from you though, sweet heart. Long time no talk. Have you been indignant with me?
reasonvemotion
Gender : Posts : 681 Join date : 2013-01-09 Location : The Female Spirit
The way I see it, Clarity is everything; placing the facts before one then and there. This was the "meaning" of the Agora. Unambiguity.
"Placing the facts before one then and there". These facts are before them, even when they are in grade school. It is more complicated than that. The young feel invincible, they won't become addicted, they won't die.
Lyssa wrote:
Quote :
A responsible person makes this aware to another, how they choose to act is upto them
and you are absolved from then on of any bad outcome? This is your child. What you don't understand is responsibility doesn't end there so effortlessly. I believe one must be VIGILANT, ALWAYS.
There is another aspect of this which has not been addressed and that is a propensity for having an addictive personality, perhaps inherited from the mother or father.
Watch this vid. It is a doctor's account of the loss of his son to drugs. I would imagine the son would have been more than adequately instructed on this topic.
Tyrannus didn't brainwash me or exploit me lol. His poltical idealogy is very similar to mine: Anarchism, anti-statism. What, really, caught my eye was his similar life experiences.
Feel free to join the forum, Reasonvemotion.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
For the Achillean, one does not hide what is other in one’s breast but speaks forthrightly, expressionally. The nothingness of hidden thoughts is hated just as the gates of Hades are hated. They are of the same stuff so to speak. I do not believe that the exception is to any dissemblance, but to dissemblance and hiddenness as proper modes of conduct, ideals to be achieved. There is in Odysseus the exemplar of the negotiator, not only of persons, but of circumstances. His is a world of objects which must be positioned. For Achilles, the world is a world of forces, and his is a immanence within them, one in which the alliance with others is a bodily constituted bond. The thymos of Achilles is the very substance that is shared between persons. His taken Briseis is his “thumares” (female form of his thymos 9.336). He thymos is poured into by the grieving of those he loves (9.612). Words matter. Riches are not worth a soul (9.401). The weapons at his disposal are merely withdrawal and action, and the power of those he is allied with. The very object-orientation of his counterpart Odysseus is misplaced. Words and weapons are the very stuff of a life."
"Any translation of the Iliad must stand or fall on the portrait it gives us of Achilles, who is absent from the entire middle of the poem, yet nonetheless dominates it like a sword of Damocles hanging over the action. The key to Achilles’ character lies in something he says to Odysseus in Book 9, when he is rejecting the appeals made to him to return to battle after his disastrous quarrel with Agamemnon: “I hate like Hades’ gates a man / who says one thing but hides the honest truth.” Achilles is incapable of dissimulation, and because all of his emotions—love, hatred, rage, remorse—exist on a hard brilliant level derived from his goddess mother, and he cannot help expressing them as they are, everything he feels and does has ramifications not only for himself, but for everyone around him, Greek and Trojan alike. The Trojans are so terrified when he returns to fighting after Patroclus’s death that they cannot even sit when they take counsel over what their plan should be. “I have a sickening fear of Achilles,” says Polydamas in Book 18. Much has been written about the excellence of Hector, whose civic dedication and tender feeling for his wife will always compel admiration. But in the end there is about him, as the famous Hellenist John Finley used to say to undergraduate classes at Harvard, a slightly Rotarian quality that must ultimately yield before Achilles’ god-like splendor. There is no more sadly frightening moment in the poem than when Hector is forced to face Achilles, who is compared to the newly risen sun: “The brilliance caused Hector to tremble and lose heart. / He left the gates behind and started to run.” This is not cowardice; it is sheer animal instinct when the weaker man meets the stronger."
"Why are there so few sympathetic portrayals of heroes who prefer open contest to cunning? Typologically Friedrich Nietzsche, Ulrich (eponymous hero of Robert Musil's Der Mann ohne Eigenschaften [The Man without Qualities] ), and Niklas Luhmann are extensions of the Achilles narrative."...
Lyssa, Do you see any differences between Han, Achilles’s anger, and Nietzsche?
_________________ And here we always meet, at the station of our heart / Looking at each other as if we were in a dream /Seeing for the first time different eyes so supreme / That bright flames burst into vision, keeping us apart.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
Lyssa, Do you see any differences between Han, Achilles’s anger, and Nietzsche?
Lets say Achilles exhibits warrior-han while Nietzsche a spiritual-one.
Both start off with choices - safe long life or short heroic life, and both choose the latter, both favour the tragic and both know their fate and what to expect;
Quote :
"Not the intensity but the duration of lofty feelings makes high men." [N., Maxims]
Both are transparent with every thought and emotion; Nietzsche does not himself choose the path of cunning, but only advocates it through Zarathustra like Patrocles is deployed as Achilles' double. Antichrist is the open wrath of Achilles, its open war. Both experience the danger of pity - Achilles with Priam and N. with the herd, and both rise above this to be a more affirmative, nobler human. The wrath of Achilles is pure, and the same purity in N. - no mental dialectics.
The han heart is a Voyeur - its a going slow. A very Discriminate delight in Taking Time to absorb silently.- Life is an Obsession. N. can appear playful, but its actually the intensity of a Voyeur. The Voyeur is not someone who necessarily has to hide, be introverted, and be silent to observe,,,, but speech and interaction itself can be a cloak of weaving silence - as N. points out...
Quote :
"The opposite is bad enough, but better nonetheless: to suffer from one's environment, from its praise as well as from its blame, wounded by it and festering inwardly without betraying the fact; to defend oneself with involuntary mistrust against its love, to learn silence, perhaps concealing it behind speech,"' to create for oneself nooks and undiscoverable solitudes for moments of relief, of tears, of sublime consolation - until one is finally strong enough to say, "what do I have to do with you?" and to go one's own way." [WTP, 970]
A Han Voyeur Conceals his Solitude with Speech.
The real Discriminate Solitary can be a jolly roger and go ho ho ho with all kinds of ho.
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"For the Age has itself become vulgar, and most people have no idea to what extent they are themselves tainted." [Spengler]
The collapse of nuances is part of the ongoing decay of philosophy.
Quote :
""When Pythagoras, who first coined the term, was asked if he thought himself wise, he reportedly responded that he was not wise, but that he loved wisdom. Rather than consisting in a closed body of knowledge, or a collection of logical tools and methods, philosophy, in this sense, involves an attitude of enthusiasm for questioning and investigation into the world. It is a pursuit and a process that never ends and is never satisfied. Unlike certain other fields or disciplines, philosophy is especially friendly to constant questioning, speculation, and reflection. It doesn’t claim to offer final answers, and it delights in the constant and unceasing probing of the world. For philosophy, there are always more questions to ask and more things to explore. If philosophy is considered in this sense, as an attitude of openness and enthusiasm for ceaseless inquiry, then we might begin to suspect that it bears an uncanny resemblance to humorous nihilism." [Marmysz, Laughing at nothing]
The range of the human spirit is Jammed and made to Jam in between only those categories that make sense "economically"; meanwhile, explaining away, doing away a whole breadth and range and depth of a real Gradation of a "Type" being collapsed into the category of the Mother, someone who puts another's interest before her own..., but the Dionysian is actually a suspension of the Mother's normal nurturing function which was conveyed in Euripides' story. The "delight in the unceasing probing of the world" [Achilles and N. testing their urge for immortality] is not "Motherly" just because it defies an economical mode of thinking.
Beyond selfish 'cost-benefit' and the selfless 'Mother', the Han is protracted intensity - hurling of oneself into the farthest future... Every attention invested is not a motherly compassion but one more delay, one more protraction, one more resistance to build self-tension. With Heraclitus, we see, the greatest har-monie comes from the fitting together of many diverse things in every direction. all sorts of things. This is the Vital meaning of a Voyeur.
The Dionysian is the pride in the Unformed, the Waste, the Useless - the lust to shape everything after its own manner, to raise everything with its own light. A voyeur's delight to see something uncontaminated, as if for the first time... it is a slow relishing - taking its time with Itself. Achilles is Pure in his self-concern. N. speaks of the delight in every problematic 'x' that no longer concerns one [we saw this before in the beauty thread]. This is no motherly compassion for the weak and lowly;
Quote :
"What does us honor.- If anything does us honor, it is this: we have transferred seriousness: we regard as important the lowly things that have at all times been despised and left aside - on the other hand, we let "beautiful feelings" go cheap." [1016]
To not be troubled of being stained or tainted by the lowly or the mundane... a Pride from a Strength of self-purity that can Obsess and Love its way Slowly;
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"He who feeds the hungry refreshes his own soul." [TSZ]
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"You friends, just cast your pure eyes into the fountain of my delight! How could it be troubled by that? It shall laugh back at you with its purity." [TSZ]
Quote :
"What one should Learn from Artists. — What means have we for making things beautiful, attractive, and desirable, when they are not so? — and I suppose they are never so in themselves ! We have here something to learn from physicians, when, for example, they dilute what is bitter, or put wine and sugar into their mixing-bowl ; but we have still more to learn from artists, who in fact, are continually concerned in devising such inventions and artifices. To withdraw from things until one no longer sees much of them, until one has even to see things into them, in order to see them at all — or to view them from the side, and as in a frame — or to place them so that they partly disguise themselves and only permit of perspective views — or to look at them through coloured glasses, or in the light of the sunset — or to furnish them with a surface or skin which is not fully transparent: we should learn all this from artists, and moreover be wiser than they. For this fine power of theirs usually ceases with them where art ceases and life begins ; we, however, want to be the poets of our lives, and first of all in the smallest and most commonplace matters." [JW, 299]
I pick the following quotes from N. to preserve the excess TYPE of Han-Voyeurism, without having it collapse in the Economics of thinking, living, loving this too is a war like no other.
Quote :
"One lives among clouds and lightning as among one's own kind, but equally among rays of sunlight, drops of dew, flakes of snow, and everything that necessarily comes from the heights and, when it moves, moves eternally only in the direction from above to below. Aspirations toward the heights are not ours.- Heroes, martyrs, geniuses and enthusiasts are not still, patient, subtle, cold, slow enough for us." [WTP, 993]
The Achilles image/naked fury:
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"Nothing but questions of strength: how far to prevail against the conditions that preserve society and against its prejudices? how far to unchain one's terrible qualities through which most people perish?- finally: how far to acknowledge in one's mind the rule, the commonplace, the petty, good, upright, the average nature, without letting oneself be vulgarized by them?- Hardest test of character: not to let oneself be ruined through seduction by the good. The good as luxury, as subtlety, so as vice." [ib., 934]
Quote :
"Never keep back or bury in silence that which can be thought against your thoughts! Give it praise! It is among the foremost requirements of honesty of thought. Everyday you must conduct your campaign also against yourself. A victory and a conquered fortress are no longer your concern, your concern is truth - but your defeat is no longer your concern, either!" [Daybreak, 370]
The extroversion of a whore being with one and all is not motherly compassion, but a voyeurism - every kind and part of life is relished slowly for self-protraction;
Quote :
"In contrast to the· animals, man has cultivated an abundance of contrary drives and impulses within himself: thanks to this synthesis, he is master of the earth.- Moralities are the expression of locally limited orders of rank in his multifarious world of drives, so man should not perish through their contradictions. The highest man would have the greatest multiplicity of drives, in the relatively greatest strength that can be endured. Indeed, where the plant "man" shows himself strongest one finds instincts that conflict powerfully (e.g., in Shakespeare), but are controlled." [ib., 966]
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"It is only a question of strength: to have all the morbid traits of the century, but to balance them through a superabundant, recuperative strength. The strong man." [ib., 1014]
Quote :
"Why the philosopher rarely turns out well. His requirements include qualities that usually destroy a man:
1. a tremendous mUltiplicity of qualities; he must be a brief abstract of man, of all man's higher and lower desires: danger from antitheses, also from disgust at himself;
2. he must be inquisitive in the most various directions: danger of going to pieces;
3. he must be just and fair in the highest sense, but profound in love, hate (and injustice), too;
4. he must be not only a spectator, but also a legislator: judge and judged (to the extent that he is a brief abstract of the world) ;
5. extremely multifarious, yet firm and hard. Supple." [ib., 976]
No motherly endurance but a voyeur's pride;
Quote :
"Men who are destinies, who by bearing themselves bear destinies, the whole species of heroic bearers of burdens: They wait; they look at everything that passes: no one approaches them with as much as a thousandth part of their suffering and passion, no one divines in what way they are waiting-At length, at length they learn their first piece of worldly prudence-not to wait any more; and soon another one: to be genial, to be modest, from now on to endure everyone, to endure everything-in short, to endure even a little more than they have endured so far." [ib., 971]
More Voyeurism; delight in delay;
Quote :
"On the misunderstanding of "cheerfulness." Temporary relief from a protracted tension; the high spirits, the saturnalia of a spirit that is dedicating and preparing itself for protracted and terrible decisions. The "fool" in the form of "science."" [ib., 991]
Quote :
"Every progress of the whole must be preceded by a partial weakening - just as the wounded, weakened place is where the body is innoculated with something new and the body's overall strength if capable then takes this new thing into its bloodstream and assimilates it, thereby allowing for the general overall health of the body to be improved." [HATH, 224]
Cleanliness is a warrior-asceticism, a weapon - the slowness of the han-voyeur, building his protracted links from the lowliest to the highest has the firmest/unshakeable or unperturbed Ego-consciousness.... the association of every link with every nook and corner is well-defined, and so the emerging consciousness is Clean enabling an "effortless effort" - you act spontaneously, direct, open, no cunning, simply be-ing oneself. The effortlessness turns to Mirth.
Achilles is spontaneous, N. can afford to Hammer effortlessly because they are Voyeurs who have paused and lived their way out of the labyrinth of the mundane, making their own fate, linking together their own Ariadne's thread...
Voyeurism is Being Clean, 0 noise - intense mirth.
Quote :
"That no one might see down into my depth and into mine ultimate will - for that purpose did I devise the long clear silence.
Many a shrewd one did I find: he veiled his countenance and made his water muddy that no one might see therethrough and thereunder. But precisely unto him came the shrewder distrusters and nutcrackers: precisely from him did they fish his best-concealed fish!
But the clear, the honest, the transparent - these are for me the wisest silent ones: in them, so profound is the depth that even the clearest water doth not - betray it. -" [TSZ, On the Olive Mount]
Thanks for that. Another quote for "delight in delay" or "protracted intensity";
Quote :
We have to test ourselves to see whether we are destined for independence and command, and we have to do it at the right time. We should not sidestep our tests, even though they may well be the most dangerous game we can play, and, in the last analysis, can be witnessed by no judge other than ourselves. Not to be stuck to any person, not even somebody we love best – every person is a prison and a corner. Not to be stuck in any homeland, even the neediest and most oppressed – it is not as hard to tear your heart away from a victorious homeland. Not to be stuck in some pity: even for higher men, whose rare torture and helplessness we ourselves have accidentally glimpsed. Not to be stuck in some field of study: however much it tempts us with priceless discoveries, reserved, it seems, for us alone. Not to be stuck in our own detachment, in the ecstasy of those foreign vistas where birds keep flying higher so that they can keep seeing more below them: – the danger of those who fly. Not to be stuck to our own virtues and let our whole self be sacrificed for some one of our details, our “hospitality,” for instance: this is the danger of dangers for rich souls of a higher type, who spend themselves extravagantly, almost indifferently, pushing the virtue of liberality to the point of vice. We must know to conserve ourselves: the greatest test of independence.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
Thanks for that. Another quote for "delight in delay" or "protracted intensity";
Quote :
We have to test ourselves to see whether we are destined for independence and command, and we have to do it at the right time. We should not sidestep our tests, even though they may well be the most dangerous game we can play, and, in the last analysis, can be witnessed by no judge other than ourselves. Not to be stuck to any person, not even somebody we love best – every person is a prison and a corner. Not to be stuck in any homeland, even the neediest and most oppressed – it is not as hard to tear your heart away from a victorious homeland. Not to be stuck in some pity: even for higher men, whose rare torture and helplessness we ourselves have accidentally glimpsed. Not to be stuck in some field of study: however much it tempts us with priceless discoveries, reserved, it seems, for us alone. Not to be stuck in our own detachment, in the ecstasy of those foreign vistas where birds keep flying higher so that they can keep seeing more below them: – the danger of those who fly. Not to be stuck to our own virtues and let our whole self be sacrificed for some one of our details, our “hospitality,” for instance: this is the danger of dangers for rich souls of a higher type, who spend themselves extravagantly, almost indifferently, pushing the virtue of liberality to the point of vice. We must know to conserve ourselves: the greatest test of independence.
Thanks. I forgot to add, the last one I quoted -
Quote :
"That no one might see down into my depth and into mine ultimate will - for that purpose did I devise the long clear silence.
Many a shrewd one did I find: he veiled his countenance and made his water muddy that no one might see therethrough and thereunder. But precisely unto him came the shrewder distrusters and nutcrackers: precisely from him did they fish his best-concealed fish!
But the clear, the honest, the transparent - these are for me the wisest silent ones: in them, so profound is the depth that even the clearest water doth not - betray it. -" [TSZ, On the Olive Mount]
- answers your question elsewhere on Male-Cunning. Silence through Speech,,, Concealment through Clarity, being Straight, direct [Achilles, Dionysos, N.] - IS a Male-Cunning, while Odysseus/Zeus represent Metis - the Feminine kind of Cunning - Oblique;
Jung wrote:
"Logos also contains the idea of the word; legein means to talk, to speak. It is another characteristic of man that he insists upon giving voice to an idea, designating it, giving a name, making a concept, expressing it, while woman, chracterized more by Eros, can leave things in suspens; they have not necessarily to be SAID. A man says, "Why the devil don't you say so?" but a woman doesn't need to say so, and usually she doesn't. Or she says something else, and a man is always convinced that she has said just the thing she should not have said. Therefore, men's ideas about women --- about their talk, you know: gossip and afternoon tea, that intricate talk, the indirect vague way of women. If he carefully follows up such a conversation, however, he sees that she is like a spider weaving a web. The talk of women, being round-about, doesn't consist of words but of spider webs, and they have a purpose different from that of a man.He means, "This is a chair, damn you, it is not a footstool." This is interesting to him; he establishes this particular distinguishing factor. But it is not interesting to a woman: if this is not a chair, it is a footstool and one can sit on a footstool if there is no chair. ...To a woman, it doesn't matter so much. It only matters inasmuch as a difference must be covered up or related; a bridge must be made in between, and that is the weaving of plots. The natural mind of a woman consists chiefly in weaving plots. ...in their natural mind they establish spider webs, threads leading from here to there which connect them up. Eventually a woman gets herself in it as well... They are natural spiders, because they can thus find out about connections. You see, that is Eros. ...Therefore a man, in order to be definite, very often cuts a thing away from life; he does not understand its living function." [Seminar on Zarathustra]
The Dionysian is the pride in the Unformed, the Waste, the Useless - the lust to shape everything after its own manner, to raise everything with its own light. A voyeur's delight to see something uncontaminated, as if for the first time... it is a slow relishing - taking its time with Itself.
An inert self-mirth barely delights in taking advantage of what is weak [which is not to say it does not take advantage of the weak] nor fears oppression in being put at a disadvantage. The Han craves the unequal, the disadvantage, the asymmetries, the bleak disproportions, the dead ends...
It is the excess pride in the unformed.
"I only attack causes which are victorious. ...I have never taken a step publicly that did not compromise me: that is my criterion of doing right." [N.]
Nietzsche is more explicit about resignation, which is presented as the antithesis of amor fati: ‘such an experimental philosophy as I live anticipates even the possibilities of the most fundamental nihilism: but this does not mean that it must halt at a negation, a No, a will to negation. It wants to cross over to the opposite of this (...) ⎯ my formula for this is amor fati. (WP §1041) For lack of space I won’t develop Nietzsche’s arguments against Christianity or Schopenhauer50; of more interest here is the thought that one must not ‘halt’ at a negation. This can be understood as an allusion to his interpretation of Schopenhauer’s position in the history of Western philosophy (he is supposed to have improved on the Christian world view by replacing the idea of a benevolent God with the will as doomed by its very structure to suffer endlessly) But it may also refer to a specific feature of Nietzsche’s own experience of suffering, namely the ‘Russian fatalism’ described in Ecce Homo. Russian fatalism is a response to certain situations where the courage and strength of the sufferer find themselves overwhelmed by pain and sickness: ‘one cannot get rid of anything, one cannot get over anything (...), everything hurts. Men and things obtrude too closely; experiences strike one too deeply; memory becomes a festering wound’. (EH: 230) Such situations are bound to arise in the course of a long illness: suffering and powerlessness foster a greater sensitivity and vulnerability both to events and to people; one is hurt by details that the healthy do not even notice. One’s memories of happier times, far from being comforting, become obsessive reminders of what was lost. The time comes when even the greatest courage and strength of mind must fail. In such times, the appropriate response is that of the ‘Russian soldier who, finding a campaign too strenuous, finally lies down in the snow. (...) No longer to take anything, no longer to absorb anything ⎯ to cease reacting altogether’. (ibid) Yet while this may look like a Schopenhauerian form of resignation (similar to the death by attrition sought by the ascetic), the function of such fatalism is the very opposite: ‘to preserve life under the most perilous conditions by reducing the metabolism’. (ibid) Rather than being invaded and used up by negative reactions (‘ressentiment, anger, pathological vulnerability, impotent lust for revenge’), it is best ‘not to react at all anymore’ until one finds the courage and strength to measure oneself against one’s pain in a way that transfigures both the suffering and the sufferer. Although it is meant to be discarded (perhaps to be adopted yet again later) as soon as our vitality is ‘rich and proud’ again, Russian fatalism is thus a moving (and perhaps unexpected) acknowledgement of human finitude from Nietzsche’s part. While by definition it prevents the sort of positive commitment of amor fati, it nevertheless fosters the right sort of attitude and can perhaps been seen as its precursor: ‘I displayed the ‘Russian fatalism’ I mentioned by tenaciously clinging for years to all but intolerable situations (...). It was better than changing them, than feeling that they could be changed ⎯ than rebelling against them’.52 (ibid)
The third feature that may encourage the birth of amor fati is the clarity of vision sometimes fostered in us by the need not to give up when faced with protracted suffering. This is rather paradoxical as pain is often said to cloud judgment. Yet should we display the courage and strength mentioned above, then suffering may prove itself to be the ‘ultimate liberator of the spirit (...) [that] forces us (...) to descend in our ultimate depths’. (NCW: 680) In another passage, Nietzsche mentions the ‘supreme sobering up through pain’ that is the means of ‘extricating [us] from the perilous world of fantasy’ in which the healthy live (D: 69-70). As noted by moralists, suffering often strips human relations and events of their social trappings and reveals to us what matters most to us. ‘He who suffers intensely looks out at things with a terrible coldness: all those lying little charms which things are usually surrounded when the eye of the healthy regards them do not exist for him; indeed, he himself lies there before himself stripped of all colour and plumage’. (ibid) Such clarity of mind is a defence against the mendaciousness of idealism or self-pity and thus may reinforce our courage in the face of suffering (by removing the temptation to dwell on alternatives). It is also per se a way to endure pain. For those who are strong enough, pain has a ‘spiritualising’ effect: such individuals are able to overcome their native aversiveness to it by focusing on the increased lucidity that it may bring. Thus ‘the tremendous tension imparted to the intellect by its desire to oppose and counter pain makes him see everything he now beholds in a new light; and the unspeakable stimulus (...) is often sufficiently powerful to defy all temptation to self destruction’. (ibid) Nietzsche lucidly points out that such awareness carries with it the danger of Faustian arrogance: ‘our pride towers as never before: it discovers an incomparable stimulus in opposing such a tyrant as pain is, and in answer to all the insinuations it makes to us that we should bear witness against life, in becoming precisely the advocate of life in the face of this tyrant’. (D: 70) Yet for him such pride is preferable to resignation or self-pity in that it fosters a positive attitude toward this life: in this, it too can be seen as a precursor of amor fati, not because it conveys the right sort of understanding of fate, like Russian fatalism, but because of the commitment to life it denotes.
Thus may men now come UP to me; for as yet do I await the signs that it is time for my down-going; as yet do I not myself go down, as I must do, amongst men.
Therefore do I here wait, crafty and scornful upon high mountains, no impatient one, no patient one; rather one who hath even unlearnt patience,—because he no longer "suffereth."
For my fate giveth me time: it hath forgotten me perhaps? Or doth it sit behind a big stone and catch flies?
And verily, I am well-disposed to mine eternal fate, because it doth not hound and hurry me, but leaveth me time for merriment and mischief; so that I have to-day ascended this high mountain to catch fish.
Did ever any one catch fish upon high mountains? And though it be a folly what I here seek and do, it is better so than that down below I should become solemn with waiting, and green and yellow—
—A posturing wrath-snorter with waiting, a holy howl-storm from the mountains, an impatient one that shouteth down into the valleys: "Hearken, else I will scourge you with the scourge of God!"
Not that I would have a grudge against such wrathful ones on that account: they are well enough for laughter to me! Impatient must they now be, those big alarm-drums, which find a voice now or never!
Myself, however, and my fate—we do not talk to the Present, neither do we talk to the Never: for talking we have patience and time and more than time. For one day must it yet come, and may not pass by.
Quote :
And some are old in their youth: but late youth preserves long youth
_________________ And here we always meet, at the station of our heart / Looking at each other as if we were in a dream /Seeing for the first time different eyes so supreme / That bright flames burst into vision, keeping us apart.
Lyssa Har Har Harr
Gender : Posts : 8965 Join date : 2012-03-01 Location : The Cockpit
"Klauser sets us in the right place, positioning the divinity of Achillean anger as part of a wide, historical immanence of rightful, citizened, defense against political injustice. In this telling Achilles is the power which will not submit to opportunism and legal or customary usurpation. It is the feeling in the breast that grows almost without object, but merely as an objection.
"The ‘True Right’ is informed by many writers who oppose the materialist perspective which insists on reducing human conflict to a profit-and-loss struggle over economic resources. While much of modern orthodoxy insists on analysing human affairs through a “rational” prism better suited to comprehending the behaviour of food-seeking worms, these writers (who include, for example, Ricardo Duchesne in The Uniqueness of Western Civilisation) correctly stress the irrational struggle for prestige – recognition of one’s status, remembrance of one’s deeds, and above all, aggrandisement of one’s pride – as a determining factor in social conflict.
It thus stands to reason that, as a corrective to those who have sought to reduce vastly diverse issues to matters of economic interest, we might use the psychology of pride and prestige to illuminate areas of human conduct in which the influence of these motivations is not apparent at first glance."
