Life & Death (II) - Love and Compassion

And your current position is the blind espousing of "love", yet, cannot even define what love is?

I already defined love upon the request of Satyr.

I'm glad you put a question mark at the end of that, because it means you're actually trying to verify information.

Me wrote:

Love is respect and value of something.

The will to preserve, embrace and improve it.

----

Respect is a method of treatment towards something. Be it the self, or an other.

It involves treating something with care and sincerity. It can be caused by relating the respected thing to a set of internal values and ideals, and seeing how they are mutual.

Value's attributed to things that cause positive affect on the individual. If one senses something is benefiting the individual in some form, they will begin to value it.

To value it enables one to recognize it in the future and embrace / take advantage of it when the opportunity arises.

Joe Schmoe wrote:

Talking of me?

The whole ilp vs kt thing, satyr vs x, us vs them...
I'm an outsider, I find it amusing.

Not emotionally invested?

Above it all?

For what it's worth, I'm representing my own individual agenda, which likely isn't shared by the broader ILP community.

My objective isn't to shine a positive light on ILP, I'm not interested in the perceptions of ILP (I don't think it's relevant), rather, my objective is to give this community tools that I believe could prove beneficial to them.

They're seemingly unwilling to accept them, or even consider whether they could be of use, even if left on a shelf for a later time.

----

You want to know if I have integrity, no? That it's just not a pissing contest?

Joe Schmoe wrote:

Not emotionally invested?

nope

Quote :

Above it all?

pretty much
aloof, they say

Quote :

For what it's worth, I'm representing my own individual agenda, which likely isn't shared by the broader ILP community.

My objective isn't to shine a positive light on ILP, I'm not interested in the perceptions of ILP (I don't think it's relevant), rather, my objective is to give this community tools that I believe could prove beneficial to them.

They're seemingly unwilling to accept them, or even consider whether they could be of use, even if left on a shelf for a later time.

----

A missionary, on an altruistic mission of love?

Quote :

You want to know if I have integrity, no? That it's just not a pissing contest?

Oh you know... competition can be so enticing. It's the nature of the beast .

phoneutria wrote:

aloof, they say

And others say safe - protected - shielded.

phoneutria wrote:

A missionary, on an altruistic mission of love?

EDIT: No.

I'm not a missionary. I'm am spiritual, not religious.

Did you just try to trap me, you cheeky bastard?

phoneutria wrote:

Oh you know... competition can be so enticing. It's the nature of the beast .

Fortunately there's more to the nature of man than beast alone.

Me wrote:

Love is respect and value of something.

Love and respect are antithetical. You can love somebody but not respect them. You can respect somebody but not love them. Can you both love and respect somebody at the same time? No, so love is not respect. You are wrong.

Me wrote:

The will to preserve, embrace and improve it.

Improvement and preservation are not the same. To preserve is to freeze something, keep it in stillness, like youthful beauty. There is no "improvement" on preservation. Preservation is a freezing of time. Time is change. Preservation is a resistance against change, so a resistance against time.

Me wrote:

Respect is a method of treatment towards something. Be it the self, or an other.

It involves treating something with care and sincerity. It can be caused by relating the respected thing to a set of internal values and ideals, and seeing how they are mutual.

Respect does not involve care.

You respect a lion or a bear because it can claw your face off and eat your skull. You are not "caring" for the lion or bear by respecting it. Respect is based on fear. If you do not fear something, then you cannot respect it.

Me wrote:

Value's attributed to things that cause positive affect on the individual. If one senses something is benefiting the individual in some form, they will begin to value it.

A value doesn't need to benefit one individual since it has value to others. If something is valuable to another, then you can hold it hostage without finding value in it yourself.

Me wrote:

To value it enables one to recognize it in the future and embrace / take advantage of it when the opportunity arises.

Ah.......take advantage of it.

There's your "love". Why didn't you say this at the beginning, why leave it until the very end.

Isn't your "love" how you take advantage of others, strangers, your sister too?

Joe Schmoe wrote:

phoneutria wrote:

aloof, they say

And others say safe - protected - shielded.

Sleek. A little difficult to stick things to

Quote :

phoneutria wrote:

A missionary, on an altruistic mission of love?

EDIT: No.

I'm not a missionary. I'm am spiritual, not religious.

Did you just try to trap me, you cheeky bastard?

Moi?
Far from me, dear. I am an angel of purity.

What I am wondering is what drove you to put down your takeout leftovers, pause the two star stand up comedy show on netflix, and come put such a lovely post in such a wicked, wretched place.
What was it, dear, spirituality?

Quote :

phoneutria wrote:

Oh you know... competition can be so enticing. It's the nature of the beast .

Fortunately there's more to the nature of man than beast alone.

Is there?

I love these little gems from ILP maggots.

Why? Just because, courtesy of the magnificient mind of mooo.

What is love? The means we use to take advantage of others, thank you! By this definition, what then is hate? Hate must be what we use to prevent ourselves being taken advantage of.

What does this say about hate? Isn't hate what we use, to protect ourselves, from Joe Shcmooo's "love"?

A bunch of haters.


To take advantage of others, you have to be a "lover".

So Joe Schmoooo, now that you've admitted that you're here to "take advantage of" people here.

Then you complain about being "ganged up" against. Should you be ganged up against?

Haven't you already admitted that you're not here with honest intent, but, with a now explicit intent, to take advantage of others?

And you define this intent as your "love".


I'm with you, by the way. I agree. Loving people is taking advantage of them. But the question is, why not just state that up front? Why are you defensive? Why do you hide behind your flimsy definition of "love"? And you act like an innocent paragon, a do gooder?

A christian's love.

Joe Schmoe wrote:

my objective is to give this community tools that I believe could prove beneficial to them.

Satyr's right about you, the docile, vacant eyes, and that soft, round face, wanting to be loved. The wan smile that says I am harmless, do not hurt me.

See how aggressively you react when things don't go your way, when they don't buy your message of peace and love?
That's weakness. An inability to deal with reality.

This is why you were a target for bullies. All that need crying out to be taken advantage of.

And your still sitting alone in a room, trying to figure out how to change the world, when it's you that needs to change.

Schmoe wrote:

You can't justify the discrepancy in standards that you hold your friends to, and what you hold others to. And you can't admit the fact that you aren't objective in this manner, therefore, you completely ignore the point and attack the messenger.

I don't know what you think that objective means. I definitely don't treat everybody the same way. I differentiate between a man and a woman. Between this race and that race, between this man and that man, between this woman and that woman,...
This insult and that insult, how it came about,... what the intentions were...
My objectivity is me trying to see how things are, not leveling everything down and treating everybody equally. I want to understand the nature of my surroundings, as to live well as my self.

I'm not very much about 'objective' fairness. I try to be far-sighted, to think about the long-term implications but I'm not fair, in the 'objective' sense - my vision for the future is not a perfectly egalitarian paste.

First off, I want to say I edited the original post to make a relevant link in it more visible.

For your convenience, I'll repost the link here, and ask you to reference the original post again to see the context of the linked thread.

Æon wrote:

Love and respect are antithetical. You can love somebody but not respect them. You can respect somebody but not love them. Can you both love and respect somebody at the same time? No, so love is not respect. You are wrong.

I disagree with a definition of love that says you can have it for someone, without fundamentally respecting their humanity. I already gave mine, but here's more:

(Wikipedia) - [Love] can [..] be a virtue representing human kindness, compassion, and affection—"the unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another".

(Google) Respect - due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.

I agree with these definitions, along with the people that published them. If you can't accept those definitions, or can't see the connection between love and respect, then you're quite ignorant.

On top of this, your logic is flawed.

1 + 1 = Impossible

Does not follow from

1 + 0 = Possible
And
0 + 1 = Possible

Æon wrote:

Improvement and preservation are not the same. To preserve is to freeze something, keep it in stillness, like youthful beauty. There is no "improvement" on preservation. Preservation is a freezing of time. Time is change. Preservation is a resistance against change, so a resistance against time.

Preserve -  To maintain in safety from injury, peril, or harm; protect.

This is the context I used this word in.

One can improve upon what is protected, assuming the method of protection doesn't suffocate.

I would say most members of this forum preserve themselves, but with such severity that they don't have space to improve.

Æon wrote:

Respect does not involve care.

You respect a lion or a bear because it can claw your face off and eat your skull. You are not "caring" for the lion or bear by respecting it. Respect is based on fear. If you do not fear something, then you cannot respect it.

Reference the prior definition I posted of respect.

In the case of a lion or bear, you're also showing respect for yourself. 'I don't deserve to be painfully murdered by another animal'.

Reference definition of love.

One can also love themselves. The respect shown to yourself, is due to self-love.

Fear is a product of self-love. Fear protects us and gives us the capacity to defend ourselves from that which may undermine the rights we give to ourselves, or others. In this case, one's right to live.

'Live and let live'.

Æon wrote:

A value doesn't need to benefit one individual since it has value to others. If something is valuable to another, then you can hold it hostage without finding value in it yourself.

In this scenario, it's the power that taking hostage of another's value, that one finds value in, not the other's value itself.

This is no contradiction of my definition.

Æon wrote:

Ah.......take advantage of it.

There's your "love". Why didn't you say this at the beginning, why leave it until the very end.

Isn't your "love" how you take advantage of others, strangers, your sister too?

Advantage - any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

This is the context that I used advantage.

Yes, my love allows me to take advantage of the opportunities presented to me.

Reference love's definition again.

As my love involves benevolent concern, it is eventually well received by other parties.

It does not harm the loved in the long term, but it can draw their attention to pain within, thereby resulting in the loved experiencing short term pain.

If applied correctly, my love should not be the source of pain.

I am learning day by day to apply it more effectively. Despite my frustration at Satyr, this experience is sharpening my skills at applying love.

As a gesture of good faith,

Satyr,

I'm sorry for mocking you. It's my place the be held to higher account, if I'm to illustrate the integrity of my position.

I think you act like a cunt, but it's a product of your shortcomings.

Your actions are particularly offensive to me, hence why I've struggled to look past them.

I will now make the point of avoiding it's potential to distract me.

This is how I can love you effectively.

phoneutria wrote:

Sleek. A little difficult to stick things to

That, and all that was mentioned earlier.

phoneutria wrote:

Moi?
Far from me, dear. I am an angel of purity.

Yet to be established. I've my doubts.

For example, your following remarks.

phoneutria wrote:

What I am wondering is what drove you to put down your takeout leftovers, pause the two star stand up comedy show on netflix, and come put such a lovely post in such a wicked, wretched place.
What was it, dear, spirituality?

I have a healthy diet. One of the first thing my psychologist taught me to do, was how to eat well.

I don't watch TV. I believe it is full of fear mongering / hate / propaganda, and I don't respect it.

I appreciate comedians / social commentators such as Carlin, Hicks, Prior, Louis CK. Maybe a few more that don't jump to mind. Apart from that, I don't watch comedy shows.

----

How I arrived at KnowThyself:

As I was posting on ILP, a member associated with this forum who went by the name Sobering Sabina linked me here and asked me to participate.

I addressed Satyr to learn of what he had to share. I immediately saw my father in him.

I'll post the link to the thread -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

---

Satyr wrote:

I only hope that how you question my views will be with more artistry than what I've grown tired of, over the years.

[...]

Help me grow, by cutting me.

[...]

Can you?
I'll be eternally grateful if you do.

I put him on my mental list. 'People to help'

There's many on the list, so he wasn't addressed substantially for quite some time.

But when I did come back, boy was I in for a treat.

To discover he had a son, the cherry on top!

phoneutria wrote:

Is there?

Yep.

Love.

Man,

This shit's gotta have started getting under your skin, right guys?  

----

That's rude of me. I'm just venting.

Hope you can forgive me, the loving lot you are.

----

Again, sorry.

Baby, you had me at "Carlin, Hicks".

This is briliant. So many fun mixtures. I just hope people don't grow tired, the best part is surely to come.

Okay I got it. He's not out to save anybody else (mabey he belives it), in reality only himself. He knows the kinds of response he'll get, its why he so obviously baits it. This is a reenactment with former demons, though this time he thinks himself strong enough to withstand and leave triumphant. Either prepreration for the real thing or a substitute.

There it is!


So tell me when is the last time you talked to your dad?

Joe Schmoe wrote:

In the case of a lion or bear, you're also showing respect for yourself. 'I don't deserve to be painfully murdered by another animal'.

Hahahaha, very good. You don't "deserve" to have your face torn off by a bear or lion.

Does reality or nature give a fuck about what you deserve? You exit the city walls, into what little remains of the wild, quickly becoming a faded memory of a past that people will deny from the future ever existed in the first place. Outside of your christianity, your safety nets, you actually convinced yourself that somebody cares? Who, cares for you? I already know the answer, God yes?

Your "love". Is common. But I like your honesty in "taking advantage" of it.

Here is the next step for you. If love is your means of taking advantage of others, then what is hate, except the means by which people prevent themselves being taken advantage of? And what is more preserving, love, or hate? If I am a "hate-ah", then doesn't my hate of others, including you, prevent my being taken advantage, by you?

It does. So hate is the preservation force, not love.

By your words.....................

TWBB wrote:

He's not out to save anybody else (mabey he belives it), in reality only himself.

As I said earlier, I've already saved myself from what I believe is affecting the population of this forum.

I'm living a life that I could have never lived in the past.

Every day I am happy and grateful to be alive.

I accept pain in measured doses, and with each measure, a greater dose of joy.

I am very well.

My ILP signature: Life is the home of the sweetest smile, and the sourest tear... A life's worth lived.

TWBB wrote:

He knows the kinds of response he'll get, its why he so obviously baits it.

I do know what responses I will get, because it's what I have said in the past, whilst I suffered from what you, and others here, suffer.

TWBB wrote:

This is a reenactment with former demons, though this time he thinks himself strong enough to withstand and leave triumphant. Either prepreration for the real thing or a substitute.

I am a loving person and want to apply the triumph I have already had with my own local environment, on a much larger scale.

TWBB wrote:

There it is!

Nope, you've failed once again to dismiss me.

TWBB wrote:

So tell me when is the last time you talked to your dad?

That's a perfect question for me.

May 29th is my nephew's birthday. In Australia, where I live, that was yesterday (1:23 am right now).

For his birthday, we went to the park with my father, my sister and my mother.

We all got along, and my sister was over the moon to spend time with her son.

It was a good day.

I have a loving relationship with all my family members, despite my frustration at their shortcomings. I love and accept them, and do all in my power to help them.

-----

I must be reaaaally getting under your skin now, eh?

Fair enough. But failed to dismiss that its all about proving something to yourself. Because only an insane person would think he could have a lasting effect on these people with that kind of rhetoric given are shared history.

Belive me I know you better than you do.

Æon wrote:

Does reality or nature give a fuck about what you deserve?

You're part of nature. You're a living being. You attribute values and rights to yourself, then use your power to assert them.

So you, as part of nature, care about what you deserve.

So, part of nature, cares about what you deserve.

Æon wrote:

Your "love". Is common. But I like your honesty in "taking advantage" of it.

My love is common, and I'm glad for it.

I defined advantage for you, and if you're unwilling to respond in the context of how I used it, all you're doing is proving empty rhetoric.

I'm not impressed.

Æon wrote:

Here is the next step for you. If love is your means of taking advantage of others, then what is hate, except the means by which people prevent themselves being taken advantage of?

That was my previous step with you, had you actually read my answer and comprehended it to any degree.

Let me repeat the words directly following your the statement you quoted -

JS wrote:

One can also love themselves. The respect shown to yourself, is due to self-love.

Fear is a product of self-love. Fear protects us and gives us the capacity to defend ourselves from that which may undermine the rights we give to ourselves, or others. In this case, one's right to live.

'Live and let live'.

Consider it.

Æon wrote:

And what is more preserving, love, or hate? If I am a "hate-ah", then doesn't my hate of others, including you, prevent my being taken advantage, by you?

It does. So hate is the preservation force, not love.

By your words.....................

Hate/fear, are defense mechanisms. Both products of love. This is what I've been saying the entire time.

What I say to you, is that fear/hate can suffocate you if too strong.

Those who have suffered deeply, and have had environments that demanded one protect themself, are the ones who allow fear/hate to become powerful.

These emotions do indeed protect them, but too well. To the point that after all threats are gone, or when one has the potential to overcome the threats, one is still building fortresses, and had little energy left, or room, to grow. Expand. Live.

Not only does it suffocate one, it makes one attack that which has no ill intent towards one. It cuts one off from all those who have potential to provide support.

But much more than that. The fear/hate denies all potential for uninhibited and unconstrained connection between one and the other, also, between one and oneself.

Thereby, creating severe isolation and denial of that which promotes life. This leads to nihilism and confusion. And puts one at serious risk.

Quote :

You're part of nature. You're a living being. You attribute values and rights to yourself, then use your power to assert them.

So you, as part of nature, care about what you deserve.

So, part of nature, cares about what you deserve.

Nature is man's nemesis. He is only strong because she is harsh. You are a symptom in what includes the undoing of us all.

TWBB wrote:

Fair enough. But failed to dismiss that its all about proving something to yourself. Because only an insane person would think he could have a lasting effect on these people with that kind of rhetoric given are shared history.

I've lived the affect of this information and experienced my improvement.

I've shared the affect with family, and seen their improvement.

As a believer in cause and effect, I share this information with you, and the forum, in hope that a similar results occurs.

If I'm proving anything to myself, it's that I'm competent at relaying the message in the face of adversity. And building the knowledge of what to expect, and how to react to those who have severe psychological damage when challenged with this information.

TWBB wrote:

Belive me I know you better than you do.

Hence why it's so easy for you to express my agenda, Mr. Okay I got it.

I can't predict the insane. But its not the truth I don't think

TWBB wrote:

I can't predict the insane.

Let me jog your memory -

TWBB wrote:

Belive me I know you better than you do.

Do you admit this is then a lie?

Aint a life if the falsity is belived to be true. I'll edit and say that I could given the proper material.