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Anfang

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PostSubject: Entropy, life and other things Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:35 am

Entropy is often described as order vs disorder or chaos.
An increase in entropy would mean an increase of chaos.

But that's sometimes difficult to grasp in every-day events. Let's put some milk into a cup of coffee. At first the milk will be somewhat separated from the coffee. Then, slowly, over time, the milk will diffuse and mix with the coffee - resulting in a homogenized fluid, at least at the level of what the human eye can see. When the milk is not yet diffused in the cup then the mixture is more ordered than after the homogenization. Why? - Because that effect is happening effortlessly. Chaos comes about without effort, while an increase in order requires energy and focus towards something, a set direction.

Entropy is a measure for how much chaos or order in a given system exists. This can become quite abstract. The science of thermodynamics is very much focused on "closed" systems. That means that the system has no connection to anything outside and that it is finite. If that does apply to the universe is a different story.

Another approach is to talk about energy dispersal when describing entropy. So... that cup of coffee with some milk... There is a flux, a flow happening in that cup. The milk is dispersing within the coffee (or the coffee within the milk).If we put the milk into the coffee at one side of the cup then at the end there will have been a net flow of milk to the other side of said cup. Otherwise it wouldn't have spread out in the cup evenly after enough time has passed. For that directed flow to take place the energy which was stored in the more ordered state at the beginning was dissipated.

There was no will behind that - chaos just comes about. It's destructive.

Yet, at the same time that unwilled move towards chaos, that dispersal of energy is also a source for life itself.
Without change there would be no reason, no possibility, for life. If what is now would be fixed, unmovable, then there would be no consciousness or will on any level, also no reason to develop any. That is where the feminine and the masculine together bring about life. The act of ordering can only take place because change is possible. That ordering is a focused, directed change. It is possible to bring about willed, directed order but that possibility also brings about the unwilled flow towards more chaos, the dissipation - unfocused energy.

Life doesn't bring about more order than was before, what it does is directing the flow. Plants absorb the sunlight and create their own order but there are limits to efficiency, usually a lot of energy is just dissipating. What life-forms do, is collecting energy, using that energy to maintain themselves and using the excess for growth and offspring.

More complex organisms require more energy. Plants -> Animals -> Order within groups

Plants take in sunlight and produce chemically stored energy, bio-matter, which has a higher energy density.
Animals eat bio-matter and sustain their more complex and energy consuming way of life. Groups enable animals to be more efficient in procuring bio-matter, energy.

The group has the possibility for growth as long as enough energy can be collected - what factors in here is availability of energy and the way the group is organized - whether the growth in group size brings more energy per individual into the collective or not. This is the field of techniques, engineering, technology and individual/group behavioral psychology.

Energy is a limiting factor in complexity.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:32 pm

To excel means to surpass the previous - that, which came before. Hard work alone produces at best variations of the already established. But if what is valued is variations of the already established (see modern art) then it will be fine, at least for a time...
In nature we observe the constant struggle of all life against entropy. To produce one recycled copy after another would be certain doom, not only through the competition of other species but also through mutations which would slowly destroy the genetic integrity. This is part of the reason why producing clones won't even preserve the established, yet alone improve upon it.
This can be applied to many human constructs as well. This is one reason for the necessity of quality to keep things functioning in the long run. Selection pressure through striving for excellence and not settling for the mediocre.
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PostSubject: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:24 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:34 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:35 pm

Can't sit through 35 minutes of those hideous 4 chords in that cheesy keyboard effect played over and over again.

But maybe when you're done with this, you can explain to satyr how entropy can decrease locally. He's a little confused on that, but he won't take it from me.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:44 pm

phoneutria wrote:
But maybe when you're done with this, you can explain to satyr how entropy can decrease locally. He's a little confused on that, but he won't take it from me.

My understanding from watching the videos is that entropy can only decrease locally by taking energy from somewhere else. But this still means that entropy has increased overall, as energy has dissipated over a larger area.

Make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:59 pm

I've heard of all theories, dear.
The emergence of life would be a decrease in randomness, as life is ordering.

The idea of a closed system, we call Universe, was questioned by Hawkin who tried to prove that energy was lost in Black Holes.
He gave up on the idea, given his health.
There is also the theory of multiverses, dear, where a universe is imagined like a membrane, as they call it, where mutiple membranes stack like pancakes - and, often, one membrane interacts with others, in theory, where energies are exchanged.

Some tried to explain the relative weakness of the gravitation force, in comparison with the other forces, by using multiverses.

This would be stretching the idea of a universe, in my mind.

But the human brain, being based on abstraction/simplification, must construct absolutes to make phenomena comprehensible.
I'm not convinced energy is not lost....but even if there is no loss, it changes nothing in my metaphysics.

But theories aside...
Can you understand why life can only emerge in a state of towards increasing entropy, and why time, as we use it, is a measure of a linear change, which means towards increasing randomness?
Can you understand how all interactions result in friction, a release of energies which add to the increasing chaos?
Can you understand why need is the experience of ordering within this towards randomness, making suffering "easy" and pleasure a result of effort, struggle, work - a Sisyphean struggle: you must increase suffering to enjoy a period of comfort?
Of course comfort and comfort being relative terms - relating to the organism's endurance - its tolerance levels - its strength.

When you understand that, get back to me, with something more than your usual insinuations.

These vids support my positions, dear.

I already know you are clueless, dear...no need to maintain the facade with me.
I know how you think and the ploys you use to appear deeper than you are.
Best you reserve them for the others.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:00 pm

Redictivist wrote:
My understanding from watching the videos is that entropy can only decrease locally by taking energy from somewhere else. But this still means that entropy has increased overall, as energy has dissipated over a larger area.

Make sense?

That makes sense.
 cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:08 pm

phoneutria wrote:


That makes sense.
 cheers

You should have used something more flirty, more coy, more girlish...more insinuating.

Your Brazilian spontaneity is exposing the fissures in your skin - the wrinkles.
Excuse yourself; go to the bathroom, powder your nose, push up the titties, put on those high-heels that pop your ass, fix your hair, and come out again, all aloof and elegant.

Nobody noticed.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:23 pm

If entropy can only increase then at some point the universe will reach a state of equilibrium where all "energy boxes" are distributed evenly and no activity, requiring energy, can occur.

So, why has this not already happened? Or, how did the universe first achieve a state of lower entropy in order for entropy to increase in the first place?

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:36 pm

apaosha wrote:
If entropy can only increase then at some point the universe will reach a state of equilibrium where all "energy boxes" are distributed evenly and no activity, requiring energy, can occur.

So, why has this not already happened? Or, how did the universe first achieve a state of lower entropy in order for entropy to increase in the first place?
I'm not a proponent of entropy.

However, if the universe is infinitely big, and infinitely small, you can always divide energies a little more, so if you divide x energy from y energy, sub x energy and sub y energy, both residing in energy x, still need to be divided, and after they're divided, sub, sub energy x and sub, sub energy y, both residing in sub energy x, still need to be divided, and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

If the universe spontaneously generated ex nihilo, then time began at a particular time and place, but may never end, which would be bizarre, but nonetheless, the universe could've began in a state of less entropy than it is now.

Of course gravity will unite, whatever entropy divides, but that's another story.


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:38 pm

apaosha wrote:
If entropy can only increase then at some point the universe will reach a state of equilibrium where all "energy boxes" are distributed evenly and no activity, requiring energy, can occur.

So, why has this not already happened? Or, how did the universe first achieve a state of lower entropy in order for entropy to increase in the first place?

That's the question.

As one approaches infinite space, energies are so evenly distributed and weak that one approaches the nil.

In my mind, as one approaches infinity - the absolute - and if you think of space as possibility, then possibility increases towards the infinite.
Probability becomes uniform possibility.
All becomes possible.

This is where Hawking's idea that Black Holes lose data comes in. Because a Black Hole, or something vastly more singular, might be the beginning of a new universe.
When I first heard that Hawking was working on proving that energy was lost in Black Holes I got excited - because I had been thinking that this is the case.
But he gave it up, claiming he was wrong.
I think his health was a factor.

We haven't come to the end of physics.   
The idea that Laws hold true everywhere until the end of time, is human hubris.
The forces were once one, right after the Big Bang, then two, and are now four (strong, weak, gravity, electromagnetism)...and they are continuing to fragment.
They considered Newton's Laws unquestionable until man discovered the quantum level which contradicts them.  

These present theories lead to a cold ending, contradicting the cycle's theories which are part of many spiritual teachings.

Then there's the multiverse theories where one membrane interacting with another - one universe, essentially with another - birth a new universe...but this also requires a loss of energies.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:24 am

Satyr wrote:
This is where Hawking's idea that Black Holes lose data comes in. Because a Black Hole, or something vastly more singular, might be the beginning of a new universe.
When I first heard that Hawking was working on proving that energy was lost in Black Holes I got excited - because I had been thinking that this is the case.
But he gave it up, claiming he was wrong.
I think his health was a factor.

We haven't come to the end of physics.

Black holes radiate the energy they consume back into the universe over vast amounts of time, so they don't break the second law of thermodynamics, allegedly. I think that was Hawking's own work.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:26 am

Divergense wrote:
I'm not a proponent of entropy.

But then we should expect to see evidence of energy being created ex-nihilo like perpetual motion machines and stars not running out of energy and dying.

It's unlikely that gravity will reunite the remnants as dark energy is accelerating the universes expansion and will eventually tear apart atomic bonds.


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:25 am

Recidivist wrote:


Black holes radiate the energy they consume back into the universe over vast amounts of time, so they don't break the second law of thermodynamics, allegedly. I think that was Hawking's own work.


From what I understood Hawking thought some data was lost....


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:27 am

Divergense wrote:
apaosha wrote:
If entropy can only increase then at some point the universe will reach a state of equilibrium where all "energy boxes" are distributed evenly and no activity, requiring energy, can occur.

So, why has this not already happened? Or, how did the universe first achieve a state of lower entropy in order for entropy to increase in the first place?

I'm not a proponent of entropy.
.

I'm not a fan of death, myself.

And I vote against predation.
If I were given a vote I would vote pro-Paradise.
A reality where all animals live together in love and harmony, everything was provided for, and all we did is sit around and play.

I am, also, not a fan of need and suffering, and I really hate pain...and yet I am not stupid enough to think that my hopes and preferences mean anything in a world that did not ask for my opinion about how it should of been, or could have been....and within which I emerged BECAUSE of how it is.
Now, since I like who and what I am, exactly as I am, I do not hold a grudge....in fact I would not have it any other way.

You, on the other hand, have your issues.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:38 am


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:31 am

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Linked page wrote:
To Alfvén, the most critical difference between his approach and that of the Big Bang cosmologists was one of method. "When men think about the universe, there is always a conflict between the mythical and the empirical scientific approach," he explained. "In myth, one tries to deduce how the gods must have created the world, what perfect principle must have been used." This, he said, is the method of conventional cosmology today: to begin from a mathematical theory, to deduce from that theory how the universe must have begun, and to work forward from the beginning to the present-day cosmos. The Big Bang fails scientifically because it seeks to derive the present, historically formed universe from a hypothetical perfection in the past. All the contradictions with observation stem from this fundamental flaw.

There is the underlying idea behind modern cosmology that there is an Alpha and an Omega.
A beginning and an end.
The believe in an end is kind of depressing for moderns - "It's all in vain anyway then. Why bother?" And so there is this trend in popular science to look for an escape - the perpetual playing of games in all eternity.

And before that, fortune was a wheel, ever turning.
But in that case, nobody can or will ever escape suffering.

The last couple of thousands of years in monotheistic tradition seem to have been about the mind trying to escape its bodily fate.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:36 am

There is a generation which creates myths and understands them as myth.
And there are following generations which understand them as truth.
And then come generations which understands myth as Truth.
And finally, there comes a generation which doesn't even remember that the Truth is a myth.




Edit - grammar


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:25 pm

I've been saying this for years.

Most of science presupposes the absolute.
God has morphed into alpha/omega beginning/end, as you noted.
In math it is reflected in the 1/0, upon which all of science depends.
The code.

And scientists, basing their thinking on this, are always searching for the absolute temperature, the absolute fabric of the universe, the beginning, and/or the god-particle, the indivisible atom, the edge of reality, the all encompassing theory (M-Theory).
And this is characteristic of all moderns - the idea that all can be known is the prevailing mythology of Alexandrianism, resulting in the reduction of life, of all phenomena to codes.
They want an end, a final solution, a universal meaning, purpose, ideal - they want certainty to cope with their anxieties.
A negative answer is better than no answer.
They would go insane without it, or they would cease to care about anything.

It's why I say that you cannot reason with most minds - the issue is self-preservation, and as many evolution psychologists point out, truth is not the purpose of life. ]
If the organism needs to fool itself, needs to believe in a lie, to survive, it will do so.

You can't convince a other of something it intuitively knows will drive it mad.
That's why in order to explain, to themselves, why some minds can go beyond survival, or have higher tolerance levels, they search more secret motives, an illness, an emotional reason.

It's, also, why I say that the Judeo-Christian God has not died...it has changed monikers, symbols, names, codes.
We live in a Judeo-Christian meme - a nihilistic one, a secular variant which I call [M]odernity; it is also called Americanism or New World Order.
Many times it is called enlightenment, progressiveness.

The same salvation myths; the same life-hating, self-denouncing (anti-ego), attitudes; the same denial of fear and escape through love (love being the christian word for their God); the same rejection of the past (nature = sum of all previous nurturing) - only in Modernity nature is to be "corrected", intervened upon, altered in accordance with current ideals -; the same sheltering of weakness; the same reversal of meanings and attitudes towards the real; the same denial of appearances, of phenomena; the same obsession with words, symbols, numbers, codes (Biblical text and  the Torah replaced by dictionaries, philosophical text, scientific studies - data interpretation similar to Biblical interpretations of Delphic-like ambiguities), with the noetic, the idealized, detached, abstraction usurping the real (solipsism).  

In mythology the absence is masked in allegory.
In science it is masked in code - words/numbers.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:11 pm

Satyr wrote:
These present theories lead to a cold ending, contradicting the cycle's theories which are part of many spiritual teachings.

The prevailing view at the moment seems to be a towards dissolution, a linear view. All is moving in one direction; entropic decay. From a state of higher order to disorder.

Order ----> Disorder

It doesn't quite establish how order originates, however, since it is all progressing in one direction. Order requires an intervention upon chaos to establish itself, but leads to an increase in entropy as that energy is consumed.

In one of those videos an example of entropy was given as the burning of petrol, the breakdown of order (the petrol) to bring about useful work. But petrol, oil, is a fossil fuel which formed from the decay of ancient organisms and is itself the product of entropy. So it seems to me that disorder inevitably produces order, at least in this instance.

If this can be extended to a metaphysical viewpoint, then the concept of the cycle is still valid.

Perhaps all will reach the state of non-active equilibrium, be sucked up by a singular super-massive black hole which will then spit out a new universe.... or the same one, regurgitated.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:19 pm

Satyr wrote:
I've been saying this for years.

I know, I've just re-connected the dots.

This quote I posted was from a marxist site, it seems. They are probably trying to eradicate the old myths, any myths, and replace them with pure scientific empiricism. But that doesn't work - like secular humanism it just tries to hide the myths, the axioms, the basic assumptions under a lot of empiricism.
And instead of being honest about the myths, which would make them to be truths, it is dishonest, it hides them and makes them to be Truths.
The secular, modern man claims to be beyond myths and superstitions, when actually, truths are not enough for him - Not to mention Truths - he's not even aware of the Truths he swallowed whole, which he can't do without.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:56 pm

apaosha wrote:
In one of those videos an example of entropy was given as the burning of petrol, the breakdown of order (the petrol) to bring about useful work. But petrol, oil, is a fossil fuel which formed from the decay of ancient organisms and is itself the product of entropy. So it seems to me that disorder inevitably produces order, at least in this instance.

Ancient organisms had to be compressed under enormous pressure for millions of years before they turned into oil, greatly increasing the density and energy content of the matter. Hence the energy contained in oil has been transferred in from the environment.

Overall, though, that has resulted in increased entropy for the world, because more energy has been put in that one can get out.

This is why it's not possible to make oil artificially, as the amount of energy you have to put into the process is greater than what you get out.
Entropy again.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:14 pm

Recidivist wrote:
Ancient organisms had to be compressed under enormous pressure for millions of years before they turned into oil, greatly increasing the density and energy content of the matter. Hence the energy contained in oil has been transferred in from the environment.

Exactly.
Stress, in this case, condenses the energies.
Stress condenses, comfort dilutes.


Recidivist wrote:
Overall, though, that has resulted in increased entropy for the world, because more energy has been put in that one can get out.

But as time/space expands this energy is evenly distributed, tending towards uniformity.
As possibilities increase probabilities become evenly distributed...lost in the towards infinite space/possibility.

The dilution of probability is a reduction in matter, or in divergent patterns.
Some think that chaos is complexity produced by this fragmentation.

I think complexity is an initial stage...and that chaos, proper, is the absence of patterns...or ordering.

This would be a slow degradation towards uniform randomness where no distinguishing patterns are present, and so no types of matter/energy.
Everything becomes equally possible, and impossible.
This would result in the increasing possibility of a singularity, a near/absolute, point in space/time to emerge - which would mean a new universe, or a continuance in the cycle.
The singularity would include its own contradiction...which is what the Big Bang is.
A near-absolute singularity exploding into multiplicity - Yin/Yang dynamics.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:18 pm

apaosha wrote:
In one of those videos an example of entropy was given as the burning of petrol, the breakdown of order (the petrol) to bring about useful work. But petrol, oil, is a fossil fuel which formed from the decay of ancient organisms and is itself the product of entropy. So it seems to me that disorder inevitably produces order, at least in this instance.

Those plants soaked up a lot of energy from the sun, they stored that energy by using it to build plant material. The energy is stored in their carbon-hydrogen, C-H, bonds. This stored energy ends up in the petroleum.

Pretty much all organisms on the planet ultimately rely on energy from the sun. Though there are a few which grow in the depths of the ocean, close to under-sea volcanos - extracting the energy they need for their growth and maintenance from the hydrogen-sulfides. They also form eco-systems there whereby the basic source of energy which sustains all life are bacteria who can use the energy stored in the H-S bonds to grow C-H material which in turn is consumed by other organisms.

Maybe the laws of physics are not as eternal as science axiomatically assumes them to be - maybe forces have their own rhythm but their periodicity is such a long timeframe that we haven't or can't measure it (yet).
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:17 pm

Satyr wrote:

But theories aside...
Can you understand why life can only emerge in a state of towards increasing entropy, and why time, as we use it, is a measure of a linear change, which means towards increasing randomness?

Time is not always a measure toward increasing entropy. If entropy can decrease locally, then locally time is perceived as a measure of decreased entropy.
Time, as you know, is relative Wink

Quote :

Can you understand how all interactions result in friction, a release of energies which add to the increasing chaos?

Yes.... except I prefer to use the word "balance".
To use chaos to define a state of entropic balance can be misleading, as to say that no transfer of energy is possible is not the same as to say that there is chaos. The state of energy death of the universe for example, which is a state of complete entropic balance, is a state of relative physical order.

Quote :

Can you understand why need is the experience of ordering within this towards randomness, making suffering "easy" and pleasure a result of effort, struggle, work - a Sisyphean struggle: you must increase suffering to enjoy a period of comfort?
Of course comfort and comfort being relative terms - relating to the organism's endurance - its tolerance levels - its strength.  

Need is the wish to remain orderly, the experience of ordering is pleasure.
And yes, I understand that. I don't think I've ever said a thing to contest entropy, dear, so it perplexes me that you should talk to me in this tone.

Quote :

When you understand that, get back to me, with something more than your usual insinuations.

These vids support my positions, dear.

I already know you are clueless, dear...no need to maintain the facade with me.
I know how you think and the ploys you use to appear deeper than you are.
Best you reserve them for the others.

Perhaps you should try reading what I post instead of skimming it for provocations.
I am not here to debunk you, dear. However when I see factual/conceptual incoherences, I am inclined to point them out.
I will once again write this under an uncontrollable urge to crush, and ignore it.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:54 pm

phoneeee wrote:
Satyr wrote:

But theories aside...
Can you understand why life can only emerge in a state of towards increasing entropy, and why time, as we use it, is a measure of a linear change, which means towards increasing randomness?

Time is not always a measure toward increasing entropy. If entropy can decrease locally, then locally time is perceived as a measure of decreased entropy.

In brief, your answer is no.
You have no clue why life can only emerge in a state of increasing entropy.  
And, in your predictable style, you do not say so, but go on and on about something that has nothing to do with it - a spineless creature, you are, pissing ink stains.


phoneeee wrote:
Time, as you know, is relative Wink

Subjectivity cannot save you from time, dear.
Blink, wink, laugh all you like...

Time is a measure of change.
Notice how I said "change", not entropy.
Linear time, is a towards increasing entropy.
You can call it pleasure, pain, black, white, balance...you can call increasing entropy God, or ordering...give it whatever word, symbol, comforts you, a "rose by any other name..."

You can't escape using words.

The rest about what you prefer, what you like, what is good, what your tastes are, what words you like to use.....yawn.

Cultivate the bovine to be a hypocrite like you dear.
Teach him how to say nothing and appear brilliant; teach him image building and maintaining; teach him the art of word games; train him in how to use words to stimulate emotional responses, your bread and butter.
Make him a female.
Make him a needy woman, desperate for an emotional man, like you.

phoneeee wrote:
Perhaps you should try reading what I post instead of skimming it for provocations.
I am not here to debunk you, dear.

Oh, sweetie, I already know what you hunger for.
You are not hear for anything other than to feed your need for attention.
You are an emotion-vampire; making the other (re)act gives you a high.

You have nothing to say in all subjects, except emotional, sensational, ones.
Some would call you a troll, but I know you can't help yourself - this is your nature, your need, your hunger.
You are a dull wench who likes being noticed and causing a stir.
You got more of a fix from the idea that I spent hours researching your Varda past...that's how desperate you are, dear.

I've got to tell you, the difference between then and now, is what makes you easy.  

"Debunk" me?
Ha!!!
You have no clue what I am saying dear.
Up until recently, if not still, you considered Modern to be synonymous with technologies, medicines; I a Luddite wanting to get rid of flour and penicillin, because only in this system are these tools possible; a romantic idealist fighting windmills.
 
Your only retort is "It ain't that bad"...and I am the romantic idealist?
Let's wait until it is "bad" before we speak of it.
Until then, you dumb woman, go back to feeding that metabolic appetite.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:28 pm

Satyr wrote:
Divergense wrote:
apaosha wrote:
If entropy can only increase then at some point the universe will reach a state of equilibrium where all "energy boxes" are distributed evenly and no activity, requiring energy, can occur.

So, why has this not already happened? Or, how did the universe first achieve a state of lower entropy in order for entropy to increase in the first place?

I'm not a proponent of entropy.
.

I'm not a fan of death, myself.

And I vote against predation.
If I were given a vote I would vote pro-Paradise.
A reality where all animals live together in love and harmony, everything was provided for, and all we did is sit around and play.

I am, also, not a fan of need and suffering, and I really hate pain...and yet I am not stupid enough to think that my hopes and preferences mean anything in a world that did not ask for my opinion about how it should of been, or could have been....and within which I emerged BECAUSE of how it is.
Now, since I like who and what I am, exactly as I am, I do not hold a grudge....in fact I would not have it any other way.

You, on the other hand, have your issues.
Yes.

I'm indolent and impotent.

I'm too weak for this world.

What helps me cope is, God, neh, that'd be irrational... or not very hip and trendy, and too patriarchal like.
What helps me cope is my brand spanking new, revolutionary theory I'm concocting, which'll help me earn the attention I so desperately crave and deserve.
Get this, the cosmos is not actually hostile to our existence... in fact, it's benevolent, unconsciously so (again, if it were conscious, it'd sound too much like God), and all we have to do is ride the wave of love, and the cosmos will carry us to the promise land.
We don't lift a finger... just let it in... accept.
People like you, negative people, deplete us, spoil the fun, and actually interfere with the anentropic processes.
So pain and suffering are illusory, a bad dream, perpetuated by psychic vampires, who themselves are possessed by off world or nightmarish entities - soulless/spiritless, their only subsistence is our negative feelings and thoughts.
I know the universe is benevolent, just because.
Again, let it in, the more you question, the more they win.
Of course we can't rely on the cosmos for everything, there is one thing we, the elect, have to do.
Rather than produce anything of value on our own, we must rob people like you, of your wealth, power, and most of all, your beauty... it's not robbing really, we're merely taking back what's rightfully ours, what you stole from us, and restoring perfect equality, happiness and harmony to the cosmos.
We reserve our, we don't call it hate, our despise, contempt, scorn or ridicule for people like you, and because we repress ourselves so often (we must wear masks to hide our true nature, which is actually several orders of magnitude lower than yours, or the magick won't manifest), we really unleash it on people like you... but it's completely justified, you're inhuman.


Who needs heroin when you have philosophy?

The purpose of philosophy is to make people like me feel better.

People like you pilfered it, we're taking it back.

You can't win, we are legion, we have mother nature and quantities on our side.



(An)entropy at "work" -

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:03 pm

Recidivist wrote:
Divergense wrote:
I'm not a proponent of entropy.

But then we should expect to see evidence of energy being created ex-nihilo like perpetual motion machines and stars not running out of energy and dying.

It's unlikely that gravity will reunite the remnants as dark energy is accelerating the universes expansion and will eventually tear apart atomic bonds.
Exactly, the notion anything, let alone the cosmos itself, had an absolute Beginning with a capital B, is a contradiction of common experience, as well as the notion space/time is a thing, that can be affected/effected, expanded/contracted, is outlandish, preposterous.
Space is merely the relative absence of matter/energy in between two or more relative presences of matter/energy.
Space isn't 3 dimensional, it isn't anything, it doesn't have properties, it's matter/energy that's 3 dimensional, and has properties, and can move hither and thither because of its nature, not the nature of space.

The cosmos is, as far as we can ascertain, causal, shit doesn't come into or go out of void. Everything has history, a past.
The big bang is a magical, miraculous and mystical theory, dreamt up by a Catholic priest, supported by a cockamamie Jew, and NASA's precious redshifts or whatever.

Things come together and go apart, there's nothing more hostile about going apart than coming together, it's a relative balance of gravity and friction, anentropy and entropy that affords life the opportunity to survive and thrive, but there's no perfect harmony, which is why life must continually exert itself to sustain itself.

There is no dark energy, nor is there dark matter, dark matter was attempted to explain away what astronomers saw with their own telescopes, with what we see with our own eyes on a daily basis, that the cosmos isn't expanding anymore than it's contracting, it's clumping together, from galactic filaments to subatomic particles/waves, far more than the notion of spontaneous generation of MEST predicted.

When you really get into, life itself to didn't come from nothing, or a relative nothing, a bungle, it too has history, a past, stretching all the way back to infinity, which is how antiquated the cosmos in all probability is.

Time is just our ability to keep track of where things have been, where they are and where they're going as whole, in relation to one another, and there is no literal matter, matter is just energy neither in the process of exploding like light (the lowest concentration of energy), or imploding like "black holes" (the highest concentration of energy), which aren't tears in the fabric of space/time, merely the next stage in star development - super fiery, gravitational, dense and massive.


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:06 pm

I am going to completely ignore all your provocations and address you solely on the subject of entropy.

Satyr wrote:
phoneeee wrote:
Satyr wrote:

But theories aside...
Can you understand why life can only emerge in a state of towards increasing entropy, and why time, as we use it, is a measure of a linear change, which means towards increasing randomness?

Time is not always a measure toward increasing entropy. If entropy can decrease locally, then locally time is perceived as a measure of decreased entropy.

In brief, your answer is no.
You have no clue why life can only emerge in a state of increasing entropy.  
And, in your predictable style, you do not say so, but go on and on about something that has nothing to do with it - a spineless creature, you are, pissing ink stains.

That is not entirely true. Even if you consider the body to be a closed system ( it isn't), entropy is fluctuating in both directions constantly. Metabolism is composed of two parts, anabolism and catabolism. And it isn't entropy what kills you in the end, it is oxidation.

Quote :

phoneeee wrote:
Time, as you know, is relative Wink

Subjectivity cannot save you from time, dear.
Blink, wink, laugh all you like...

Time is a measure of change.
Notice how I said "change", not entropy.
Linear time, is a towards increasing entropy.

Toward increasing entropy, yes. Not toward increasing randomness.

Quote :

You can call it pleasure, pain, black, white, balance...you can call increasing entropy God, or ordering...give it whatever word, symbol, comforts you, a "rose by any other name..."

You can't escape using words.

The rest about what you prefer, what you like, what is good, what your tastes are, what words you like to use.....yawn.

Cultivate the bovine to be a hypocrite like you dear.
Teach him how to say nothing and appear brilliant; teach him image building and maintaining; teach him the art of word games; train him in how to use words to stimulate emotional responses, your bread and butter.
Make him a female.
Make him a needy woman, desperate for an emotional man, like you.

phoneeee wrote:
Perhaps you should try reading what I post instead of skimming it for provocations.
I am not here to debunk you, dear.

Oh, sweetie, I already know what you hunger for.
You are not hear for anything other than to feed your need for attention.
You are an emotion-vampire; making the other (re)act gives you a high.

You have nothing to say in all subjects, except emotional, sensational, ones.
Some would call you a troll, but I know you can't help yourself - this is your nature, your need, your hunger.
You are a dull wench who likes being noticed and causing a stir.
You got more of a fix from the idea that I spent hours researching your Varda past...that's how desperate you are, dear.

I've got to tell you, the difference between then and now, is what makes you easy.  

"Debunk" me?
Ha!!!
You have no clue what I am saying dear.
Up until recently, if not still, you considered Modern to be synonymous with technologies, medicines; I a Luddite wanting to get rid of flour and penicillin, because only in this system are these tools possible; a romantic idealist fighting windmills.
 
Your only retort is "It ain't that bad"...and I am the romantic idealist?
Let's wait until it is "bad" before we speak of it.
Until then, you dumb woman, go back to feeding that metabolic appetite.
[/quote]

Pardon me if I don't reciprocate.

Edit: Removed incorrect sentence : "Entropy is what breaks your body down when you're dead."


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:20 am

How serious you become when the masks are torn.

Balance...

In a universe of increasing entropy, where no effort is needed to increase it....and where ordering requires effort, most states of balance, if not all, can be achieved, willfully.
In fact "balance"only makes sense in relation to an established order - a state where chaos and the reaction to it are in equilibrium.
In the Hellenic ascetic ideal I've compared balance to riding a wave on a surfboard - I was inspired by Evola's "Riding the Tiger" metaphor.
The wave has not stopped going towards the shore, the air and the abyss have not disappeared, but for a short while there's that almost perfect state of equilibrium where rider, wave, air, abyss, are in sync - in harmony.

In fact, other than randomness, only will, as in "will towards" can decrease entropy to any significant level...and then only ephemerally.
The ordering of life is in (re)action to the natural state of disordering.
This is why your pet moneky's claim that the opposite to my position that 'pleasure is a temporary decrease in need', holds no water - despite your obsession with perspectivism to save your arse from the inevitable.


Two types of chaos...
I think I've explained it already.

Complexity, in relation to the observer, where the patterns are so subtle, or non-perceptible, that the mind interprets it as darkness.
Man invents tools with more sensitive sensors to perceive these more complex/subtle patterns.

Randomness, where there are no patterns, and so the energies are inconceivable, imperceptible, even by human machines and sensory enhancing tools; nothing the mind can make sense of - it interprets it as darkness, as well.
This is chaos-proper - sheer randomness with nil pattern.

A mindless woman, with no clue, might be obsessed with the idea that 'all is good', 'it's not that bad', and that chaos is not increasing...despite being presented with vids explaining the contrary...which she does not watch because she's a nit-wit who wants to believe that her pleasures come at no cost, and the cosmos is interested in her whims, and her tastes, and is influenced, directly, by her word-games.
Life IS the localized decrease in entropy.
That's what "ordering" IS, you retard.
Ordering is a slowing down of the movement towards entropy.

Now, your claim of a localized reversal of entropy (a going backwards in time), whether true or not - has no affect on my positions...as the state in which life emerges can only be a towards increasing chaos.  
I've, actually, proposed the possibility - if you ever cared to bother with more than your emotional needs - that entropy might be decreasing, simultaneously with it increasing, like in a looping effect.
"Eternal return, and Hindu, and eastern spirituality, in general, allude to such a possibility.

They call the "looping" (a visualization allegory), cyclical...and they often represent it as circular, yin/yang.
This would help to make the universe an enclosed self-sustaining whole...and yet, still, even if this is proven to be more probable than not, it still changes nothing about life and its relation to chaos.
More importantly it contradicts nothing I've said.  

The world is threatening to life, because it is increasing in entropy, which conflicts with life's ordering processes.
This is why life must constantly struggle to maintain itself within the world.
The stress upon the ordering body is what makes it need, or feel this condition as need; and it makes it suffer, if these need(s) are not satisfied. The body must be constantly repaired, healed, every cell replaced; the body is in a constant state of agon, fighting off viruses, dealing with emerging infections, cancers, repairing small damages, replacing cells.
Most of it automated, requiring no consciousnesses....consciousness evolved to deal with the big stuff, you dumb hypocrite.

When the automatic processes can accomplish their jobs, the mind feels at ease, comfortable...even though it is constantly fighting, struggling, repairing...
The conscious mind is alerted to something only when it reaches a level where it requires immediate attention.
It then senses the need, and it begins to grow towards what we call suffering/pain.
Pain, you simpleton, is how the conscious mind is alerted to a possible threat. That's why consciousness evolved.
It was not to get you off, dear. It is a survival tool.

How and why consciousness has become more is another story...and one i will not be explaining to you, dear.


During replacements of cells, or of genetic data, it is flux which creates mutations...this including in the womb when a recombination of previous genetics in affected by the cosmos - all that exists being activity.
Matter/energy being slower or faster forms of (inter)activity.  

What kills you in the end is a slow decline, when the energies required to heal the damage done by entropy, over long periods of time, do not suffice to retain the organism at its peak condition - its highest potential order.
The organism's ordering cannot keep-up with the accumulating effects of temporal attrition.

This same process also explains SuperOrganic decay - as in civilizations, empires, declining over time.

Dear....saying "no" and nothing else might work with the men-children you can impress with your bullshit mind-games, but they leave me desperately bored.
What you should do, to keep me interested and you well-fed with the emotions you lack in your life, and you crave, is google fun facts, for us.
Then bring them here, post them, and imply that you've told me something new that contradicts my positions, or that you actually understand my positions or the fun-fact you brought over...you know pretend that you've "taught" me something.
If that fails, just repeat the insinuations, wanting to raise an emotional response in me.
If I pretend to be affected, sit back and applaud yourself, because a simple female, like you, managed to get a Satyr upset.

Use the length of this post to flatter yourself, dear...as if you are not my means, and not my end.
Fuck, I once spent an entire summer explaining my positions to the autistic boy, Purple Dragon.
Not because I thought I could convince him, ro that he could understand, or that he was worth it, but because he provided me with an opportunity to expand upon my views, for any passer by to read.
I do that all the time, dear.
I did it with the shit-head Kovacs and with shit-Stain on ILP.
When a citric retard appears, I take the lemon and I try to make sweet lemonade.

You know what I remember about Varda, back on sciforums and in the monkeybarn?
Nothing.
I had to go back and skim through your gushing, womanly boring shit.
No wonder nobody noticed when gendy or xev were around.

You were, and are, one boring woman.

All you have are mind-games....luckily, for you, I enjoy them.
It's my feminine side.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:56 pm

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"By accepting the theory of the expanding universe we are relieved of one conclusion which we had felt to be intrinsically absurd. It was argued that every possible configuration of atoms must repeat itself at some distant date. But that was on the assumption that the atoms will have only the same choice of configurations in the future that they have now. In an expanding space any particular congruence becomes more and more improbable. The expansion of the universe creates new possibilities of distribution faster than the atoms can work through them, and there is no longer any likelihood of a particular distribution being repeated. If we continue shuffling a pack of cards we are bound sometime to bring them into their standard order — but not if the conditions are that every morning one more card is added to the pack."

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:15 am

Quote :

Balance...

In a universe of increasing entropy, where no effort is needed to increase it....and where ordering requires effort, most states of balance, if not all, can be achieved, willfully.
In fact "balance"only makes sense in relation to an established order - a state where chaos and the reaction to it are in equilibrium.
In the Hellenic ascetic ideal I've compared balance to riding a wave on a surfboard - I was inspired by Evola's "Riding the Tiger" metaphor.
The wave has not stopped going towards the shore, the air and the abyss have not disappeared, but for a short while there's that almost perfect state of equilibrium where rider, wave, air, abyss, are in sync - in harmony.

I am not sure what you are going on about here. You seem to be thinking of balance as a temporary state of low entropy. But when it comes to entropy, as in the second law of thermodynamics, equilibrium is when the maximum state of entropy is reached. There is nothing willful about it. Heat energy dissipates until all parts of the system bare no gradient.

Quote :

In fact, other than randomness, only will, as in "will towards" can decrease entropy to any significant level...and then only ephemerally.

This is true, but it's not about order. You can decrease entropy locally by returning your system to a state of imbalance, by cooling down the recipient end of a heat transfer, which would be an increase in molecular order, but you can also decrease entropy by heating up the giving end of a heat transfer, which would be a decrease in molecular order. To use the life form example, you decrease entropy by trapping energy into matter. However, you can see here how extrapolating entropy to a living organism can't be taken to be a scientifically literal example, because to release entropy from matter is is not at all an effortless reaction, a spontaneous flow. It is in fact a very effortful, energy expensive reaction.

Quote :

The ordering of life is in (re)action to the natural state of disordering.
This is why your pet moneky's claim that the opposite to my position that 'pleasure is a temporary decrease in need', holds no water - despite your obsession with perspectivism to save your arse from the inevitable.

It is a reaction to the natural state of entropy increase, but by no reason other than the rapid release of heat energy from matter by stars making this energy available to be captured by emerging life forms. In fact, it is more accurate to say that it is a reaction to the force of Gravity, since it is what causes matter to pack so densely as to behave as a fusion reactor.

Quote :

Two types of chaos...
I think I've explained it already.

Complexity, in relation to the observer, where the patterns are so subtle, or non-perceptible, that the mind interprets it as darkness.
Man invents tools with more sensitive sensors to perceive these more complex/subtle patterns.

Randomness, where there are no patterns, and so the energies are inconceivable, imperceptible, even by human machines and sensory enhancing tools; nothing the mind can make sense of - it interprets it as darkness, as well.
This is chaos-proper - sheer randomness with nil pattern.

OK.

Quote :

... and that chaos is not increasing...despite being presented with vids explaining the contrary...

Chaos is increasing, yes. Not randomness. "Randomness" is a meaningless word, as there is no such thing as "random" in physics.
In physics, as in the Chaos Theory, any outcome is predictable as long as all the variables are accountable. In a highly chaotic system, the outcomes are unpredictable not because they happen at "random", but because there are way too many variables at play, making keeping track of them impossible. The correct word to define such systems is stochastic.

Quote :

Life IS the localized decrease in entropy.
That's what "ordering" IS, you retard.
Ordering is a slowing down of the movement towards entropy.

Yes, dear.

Quote :

Now, your claim of a localized reversal of entropy (a going backwards in time), whether true or not - has no affect on my positions...as the state in which life emerges can only be a towards increasing chaos.  

Without going into the merits of Relativity, which I think are beyond the scope of this discussion, why you've elected to say that a localized "reversal" of entropy means a going backwards in time is unexplicable to me. In the paragraphs above, you stated that life is the localized decrease in entropy. Why is it now a going backwards in time? Haven't we come to agree with the definition of the law, that systems can suffer local entropy decrease? Why most you now throw this nonsense into the discussion?

And once again, no. I am not out to debunk your positions. However when I see factual/conceptual missunderstandings, I am inclined to point them out.

Quote :

I've, actually, proposed the possibility - if you ever cared to bother with more than your emotional needs - that entropy might be decreasing, simultaneously with it increasing, like in a looping effect.
"Eternal return, and Hindu, and eastern spirituality, in general, allude to such a possibility.

They call the "looping" (a visualization allegory), cyclical...and they often represent it as circular, yin/yang.
This would help to make the universe an enclosed self-sustaining whole...and yet, still, even if this is proven to be more probable than not, it still changes nothing about life and its relation to chaos.

I remember that. I think we had a brief conversation on that two years ago. The application of such possibility can be no more than symbolic/allegoric at the moment, as there is nothing that we have been able to measure in the physical world to indicate that.
Perhaps our universe is an open system. We don't know.

Quote :
More importantly it contradicts nothing I've said.

More importantly? Is the point of this discussion to prove you right?
Silly me, I thought it was about understanding thermodynamics.

Quote :

The world is threatening to life, because it is increasing in entropy, which conflicts with life's ordering processes.
This is why life must constantly struggle to maintain itself within the world.
The stress upon the ordering body is what makes it need, or feel this condition as need; and it makes it suffer, if these need(s) are not satisfied. The body must be constantly repaired, healed, every cell replaced; the body is in a constant state of agon, fighting off viruses, dealing with emerging infections, cancers, repairing small damages, replacing cells.
Most of it automated, requiring no consciousnesses....consciousness evolved to deal with the big stuff...

When the automatic processes can accomplish their jobs, the mind feels at ease, comfortable...even though it is constantly fighting, struggling, repairing...
The conscious mind is alerted to something only when it reaches a level where it requires immediate attention.
It then senses the need, and it begins to grow towards what we call suffering/pain.
Pain,... is how the conscious mind is alerted to a possible threat. That's why consciousness evolved.
It was not to get you off, dear. It is a survival tool.

Once again, there is misuse of concepts here. Entropy is not a force. It is not out there breaking things down into pulp. It is an unit of measurement, a yardstick. Entropy is not related to the order of the matter itself, it is related to the potential for energy flow. Matter does not simply break down through mysterious, effortless forces of nature. It takes effort to break down a rotting tree, oxidize a piece of metal, digest a piece of bread. Entropy increases NOT because matter is broken down, but because when it is broken down, some energy is dissipated in the form of heat. The stress upon the ordering of the body occurs as a result of natural chemical reactions, oxydation being the primary one. Entropy is threatening to life only in the sense that potential for heat transfer is necessary in almost all chemical reactions, which we need to keep our bodies running.


Quote :
How and why consciousness has become more is another story...and one i will not be explaining to you, dear.

Poor me.

Quote :

During replacements of cells, or of genetic data, it is flux which creates mutations...this including in the womb when a recombination of previous genetics in affected by the cosmos - all that exists being activity.
Matter/energy being slower or faster forms of (inter)activity.  

This paragraph sounds like it may have some content, but it is incomprehensible. Would you care to rephrase?

Quote :

What kills you in the end is a slow decline, when the energies required to heal the damage done by entropy, over long periods of time, do not suffice to retain the organism at its peak condition - its highest potential order.
The organism's ordering cannot keep-up with the accumulating effects of temporal attrition.

Entropy does not do damage. It's a unit, like meters or kilos. Entropy cares nothing for what you understand as order/disorder. In fact, we could increase molecular order on a person to a level never before reached by freezing their corpses. Of course that doesn't mean anything in terms of entropy, as what it matters is what temperature the surrounding environment is in. Globally, of course, everything is moving toward maximum entropy, meaning entropic equilibrium, meaning maximum dissipation of heat, meaning a frozen universe, meaning high molecular order.

Quote :

This same process also explains SuperOrganic decay - as in civilizations, empires, declining over time.

I am fond of metaphors, too.

Here's one, the "garbage dump". As a courtesy to you dear, so you can keep track of how much time you're wasting:

Garbage dump wrote:

How serious you become when the masks are torn.

A mindless woman, with no clue, might be obsessed with the idea that 'all is good', 'it's not that bad',...
..which she does not watch because she's a nit-wit who wants to believe that her pleasures come at no cost, and the cosmos is interested in her whims, and her tastes, and is influenced, directly, by her word-games.

..., you dumb hypocrite.

...you simpleton, ...

Dear....saying "no" and nothing else might work with the men-children you can impress with your bullshit mind-games, but they leave me desperately bored.
What you should do, to keep me interested and you well-fed with the emotions you lack in your life, and you crave, is google fun facts, for us.
Then bring them here, post them, and imply that you've told me something new that contradicts my positions, or that you actually understand my positions or the fun-fact you brought over...you know pretend that you've "taught" me something.
If that fails, just repeat the insinuations, wanting to raise an emotional response in me.
If I pretend to be affected, sit back and applaud yourself, because a simple female, like you, managed to get a Satyr upset.

Use the length of this post to flatter yourself, dear...as if you are not my means, and not my end.
Fuck, I once spent an entire summer explaining my positions to the autistic boy, Purple Dragon.
Not because I thought I could convince him, ro that he could understand, or that he was worth it, but because he provided me with an opportunity to expand upon my views, for any passer by to read.
I do that all the time, dear.
I did it with the shit-head Kovacs and with shit-Stain on ILP.
When a citric retard appears, I take the lemon and I try to make sweet lemonade.

You know what I remember about Varda, back on sciforums and in the monkeybarn?
Nothing.
I had to go back and skim through your gushing, womanly boring shit.
No wonder nobody noticed when gendy or xev were around.

You were, and are, one boring woman.

All you have are mind-games....luckily, for you, I enjoy them.
It's my feminine side.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:55 am

For some "balance" is a word describing the absolute...as in absolute perfection.
A uniformity of the possible, which I've described as this chaotic state; within which no life is possible, because life is a manifestation of disparity - ergo "survival of the fittest", and the need for consciousnesses to discriminate, to direct the organism, to choose.
If there is no disparity there is nothing to discern.
Uniformity, in an absolute, would mean to not discern anything....darkness.There would be no fluctuations, no Flux, to perceive patterns in.

Disparity meaning the multiplicity of patterns, which man categorized as different forms of energy/matter.
There is no life in a uniformity...even in a theoretical state of absolute ORDER - as in God.
The Christian description of "God" are contrary to life-affirming...and this is why this nihilistic construct must be placed "outside" space/time, to make it plausible on a theoretical level.
Theo-retical.
In secular humanist terms, Marxist contexts, Liberal ones, parity constitutes a uniformity that would mean atrophy, degradation, decay.
An ant-colony offers us a glimpse into what social uniformity would look like - individuality loses all meaning.

Zero stress, perfect parity, absolute justice, are concepts denoting the end of life.
There is no life, no growth, no evolution without disparity, injustice, conflict, struggle - without agon there is stagnation which inevitably results in death, because these concepts have no meaning outside human minds; minds deluded and desperate to deal with their anxiety/fear, dreaming of conditions nowhere to be found, as a form of escape.
Nihilism is not only the denial of the world directly, but it often comes in the form of "good tidings". I've explained this before.
If I propose a desirable state, a fantastic imaginary world, which contradicts everything which we can experience, then I am proposing an alternative to the world - a no-thing to the world's some-thing; a theoretical nil to the world's presence, interpreted as one.
It does not matter if this imagined perfect world makes me feel good, or is more to my tastes, if everything about it comes into conflict with everything I experience in the real world; it does not matter how I project my ideal world, as a future or a beyond, as a "should", if it contradicts the past/nature.
Even if we claim that it might be possible, what we propose describes a reality withing which we, as we are, would not be possible - because we ARE a manifestation of this past, though some reject and deny it.
We annul all future emergence of I - self-hatred in the guise of hopeful idealism.

When such a state is expressed as a longing, a desirable, end, it exposes life-hating resentiment.

The uniformity of energies, is a description of nothingness.

Randomness = in fact Quantum physics points to such a condition.
But besides this, randomness owning to the fact that it is an absence of patterns, which the mind cannot make sense of, will not be perceived directly...but will be present as a theoretical form of energy needed to balance scientific models.

Models concerning Dark Matter is such an attempt.

Of course "balance" as a word detached from reality, can mean anything.
I can call falling down a new, more refined, form of balance.
I can call chaos order, if I wish, and in this way deal with the uncertainty and flux.
I can call the zero one...
I can apply the symbol in any way I like, making perspectivism, as a soothing ideal, possible.
But if I am guided by honesty, and integrity, and not cowardice, seeking relief/pleasure in word-games, then I try to connect the word/symbol not back to my head, to another abstraction, or to a noetic device, but to an empirical, apparent - a phenomenon.
I refer my abstractions to what is outside my willful control; I recognize them as symbolic representations of a some-thing, real.

There is no state of balance in reality.
All is flux.
If there were balance there would be no death...the processes for and against life would be balanced.
We can baptize change into balance, if we like, but this does not deal with how the reality of the situation affects us as living organisms, struggling to order and to maintain ourselves in the Flux.
We can call suffering/pain pleasure, but it still does not change the distress we feel.
I might even baptize death as a higher form of life, to deal with my inevitable demise...and still I would not do anything about the reality of what death means to me.

It does not matter what word-games one uses.
He may call chaos a higher state of order...why not?
He might refuse to consider the possibility of randomness to make everything that happens part of some pattern he might one day understand - the "all can and will be known" of Godliness.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:32 pm

How serious you become when the masks are torn.
Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:47 pm

phoneeeee wrote:
How serious you become when the masks are torn.
Wink

It's because my Dionysian side is the mask, dear.
I am Apollonian.

And as an Apollonian spirit I know what Dionysus is, as I know what a female is, and what an animal is.

When you figure out how a cold, rational, seemingly detached external facade is really hiding an emotional, perhaps hysterical, mind, and how a passionate, emotional facade can hide a cold, detached spirit, you might begin to understand why pretense always exposes itself by what it pretends to be.


From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Old-Goat wrote:

Hannibal, in the movies - the Hopkins version - is the inversion of the Hannibal, in the television series - the Mikkelsen version.

Hopkins/Hannibal is expressive, passionate, over a cold, calculating, controlled internal psychological structure.
Mikkelsen/Hannibal is cold, reserved, calculating, controlled exterior, over a passionate psychological structure.

Now you keep skimming those posts, sweetie and then expect me to take you seriously.
Back to your Bovine herd, woman...mooooooooooooooo.

Why am I using Satyr as my on-line avatar, sweetie?
I've given you everything and still you are stuck in your desire to "pull me down" to where you live: in the shadows, in the corners, waiting for some poor sap to fall into your traps.
Your spider is your mask.

Most of the time, but not always, the public face is the reverse of the private one.
Show me a carefree, seemingly happy, braggart, who claims to have it all, and I'll show you an insecure, unhappy, desperate hypocrite, frightened that someone might discover how embarrassed he is of himself...because he can't live-up to what he thinks he must.
One day he's this, the next he is that....he be a playa.

Know why such desperate cowardly minds have no principles no scruples, no ideals, other than the popular?
because to make a stand would ruin their game.
They need to be ambiguous, mysterious, non-descript enough to be whatever suits them at whatever time.
They never say much, and are cynical about everything, because then they can hide, no matter the circumstances.
Taking a stand requires exposure...which you fucks call narcissism, because you prefer to slither in the corners and love yourself through others.  

Show me a clown and I'll show you misery.

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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:08 am

Satyr wrote:
It's because my Dionysian side is the mask, dear.
I am Apollonian.
It's not a mask, it's just as much a part of you as the other.

It's not your mask, it's your shadow, at least to you, Lyssa and Apaosha.

To everyone else, the other is your shadow.
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:29 pm

Are you going to address my answers to your post?
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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:43 pm

One of the main 'clarifications' on Satyr's post is supposedly his perception of entropy in terms of order/disorder as opposed to energy dissisipation.

But if Order and structure itself was defined by him in terms of flow of energy, then I fail to see how anything he said was inaccurate;

Satyr wrote:
"Flow implies an uninterrupted continuum, merging, converging, conflicting, resiting producing pools of greater or lesser flows, or speeds of flow, swept away by a current veering towards uniformity.
The universe is cooling, after all, and "cold" is a term denoting the diminishing of a activity, the decline of energy.
Even this more current interpretation of the universe expanding in exponentially greater rates of speed, only signifies a decline in order.
For, if order is a resistance, a rarity, in the norm towards entropy then its gradual decline would mean a proportional increase in the movement towards entropy."

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In fact, I find it practising what it cautions Satyr of. Speaking of local entropic decrease [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to make a case against feminization and calling it a glorifying a 'cult of pain' is It thinking of entropy in terms of structure alone, as in any mixed humanity, any kind of order is supposedly a sign of decreased entropy.
When one affirms there is something positive in all things, and uses that to justify race-mixing, this kind of levelling - this kind of thermodynamic 'balance' - all superior resistance being dissisipated into the system till there is an equilibrium - this is not 'glorifying' a cult of pain but one more sign of the Drift towards max. entropy occuring even locally I would say. Objectivity is the Discernment that not every kind of 'order' is life-affirmative; the current system and the 'order' it promotes is very life-denying. Satyr has already commented on this;

Satyr wrote:
"In aristocratic social systems where authority was not centralized an individual leader of a clan could withhold his particular group’s, his family’s, excess energies, or offer them partially, to a central figure, representing the Head, the King, of many clans/bloodlines.
This King was nothing more than a figurehead; first amongst equals.
He symbolized the groups and their shared past; their common ancestry and culture: common Ideals.
The King was not only a genetic marker but also a memetic one.
This decreased the synergy of the group directed by the will of a King, yet it retained a degree of autonomy, resulting in a relationship of equals rather than one of master towards his slaves.
This loss of synergetic force was compensated, somewhat, by the shared genes, the shared blood, which united all the families/clans, making their actions towards outside aggressors more passionate.
The fearsomeness of the old pagan warriors, the famed berserkers, was due to this empowerment, through free-will, which bonded the different strains of the same blood into unions rooted in history; deeper roots fed into the shared trunk upon which the different branches grew and extended themselves over the world.

In modern social systems this is no longer the case. In fact the previous aristocratic synergy would be detrimental to modern-day unity.
In modern systems heterogeneous peoples are forced into cohabitation, and into cooperative (inter)actions.
To exploit the synergy of each, by reducing the lost energies produced by the frictions between them, the system must reduce the individual’s appreciation/awareness of its past; it must detach it from its heritage, from the trunk it has grown upon; it must lower self-identification to a level where all can find commonality within the all-encompassing, all levelling fold; it must redefine individuality and free-will, associating it with behaviors and activities and thoughts that increase service or that increases actions which produce a surplus of energy the centralized agency can then exploit…and direct.
By defining freedom in a way which is antithetical to its nature, turning dependence into independence, the system brainwashes generations of minds, turning them into willing, happy, servile automatons, content to find self-worth in communal appreciation, and forever measuring their own quality by using the popular standards.

Any residual free-will present within a unity can only decrease the unity’s overall synergy, as this individual will, not being totally subdued by the central Will, may withhold or deny, in whole or in part, what aggregate energies are in its control.
This loss represents a loss of internal efficiency.
The reduction of free-will is necessary if the parts participating in the sum are to provide, as close to total, the surrender of their individual synergies, in this way increasing the synergy of the larger unity.
What (inter)actions occur between individual parts within the whole, leads to the loss of energy which then dissipates as heat, or lost energy (lost wealth).
Conflict, or the rejection of otherness, which is a part of being an individual human being, is another way of saying: friction, or internal strife, resulting in this loss of aggregate energy.
To carry on with the metaphor, this loss of energy dissipates within the system as heat, which may, if the energies which are lost are large enough, result in an internal systemic overheating.
The decrease in any friction caused within the unity is a necessary part in increasing the system’s total synergy.
This includes, within human social unities, the elimination of anything that may cause interpersonal frictions.
Certain morals, attitudes, behaviors, values, can produce the desirable outcome.
Any identity which separates or distinguishes in ways that increase internal friction or in ways that produce energies the system cannot exploit, are deemed worthless or even dangerous.
In effect, what is occurring here is that the individual is losing all sense of self, losing itself within an Identity outside itself, which then reduces any friction its (inter)actions may possibly produce. The reduction of internal friction entails a loss of individuality – or the sense of self – by the individual parts.
For a human system (unity) it is essential to reduce all internal friction, increasing, in this way, the efficiency of the utilization of the synergies of the participating parts.
Eliminating all natural distinctions is important to the wealth of the system, if it measures its own value in this way, and if it identifies with wealth or the control of resources – money being the abstraction of resources.
In time, as we shall see, this elimination of natural distinction also leads to the elimination of money’s connection with anything tangible. The disconnection with reality increases to the point where money has no reference to anything material.

Dumbing-Down, or the manipulation and seduction of the participants minds, making them associate servitude with self-worth, or the goodness of the whole with their own good, is one way inner friction is reduced and the total synergy available to the centralized Will (the government) is increased.
Laziness is then defined as a reluctance or avoidance to offer one’s own energies towards production/consumption.
Promoting certain values, such as the work ethic, and by retarding and repressing the development of any personal will the system manages to exploit its individual parts more effectively.

But let us continue with the symbolisms.
Given that an increase in internal (inter)activity, in an efficient way, leads to an increase in the system’s aggregate energies, and therefore to the increase of synergy available to the centralized agency (institutionalized Will) it is no longer necessary for wealth to refer to resources.
Here we have the beginning of this detachment from nature/reality which abstractions can facilitate.
By abstracting resources into monetary codes, credits, and by making activity, energy the system’s source of synergy, turns (inter)actions between the individual parts into an exchange of services, or potential services, with no correspondence to anything tangible.

Interactions, interpersonal exchanges, become more about concepts than substance.
All is expendable because exchanges are now about ideas…the hypothetical.
No resources, no substance, is at play…because all has been reduced to a concept.

The market system finds its ideal in the manufacturing not of goods but of exchangeable concepts, representing services rendered or promised and yet to be rendered. Now (inter)actions become based on expectations and probabilities, rather than resources and reality.

But this is not the entire truth, because resources are in play, only they’ve been abstracted out of mind. Those who control the resources control the game, the rest play on a theoretical, idealized, Platonic level, trying to find substance in a world where it has been taken out of play."

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My view as I have said elsewhere and even in the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thread,

Lyssa wrote:
"on one extreme mythos and logos are separated through abstraction - extreme drying up,,, and on the other extreme - everything is mythos or everything is equally logos - extreme fluidification.

There's been a lapse into two extremes."

In other words, there is a negative Apollonian tendency where order tends to petrification, abstraction and a severance of word to phenomenon characterizing Modernity, and there is a negative Dionysian tendency where order tends to extreme fluidity and undifferentiation, an extreme merging of word into the phenomenal current, characterizing the simulacra and the polysemantic fictitiousness of Post-modernity.

Nihilism is a tilt in either way. Balance in the aesthetic sense, is a Dionysian checking on apollonian petrification, and Apollonian checking on the dionysian over-fluidity. A healthy synergy.

To which, Satyr had replied in that thread,

Satyr wrote:
"And this is what makes the schizophrenia of modernity a way of coping, without going insane, and without having to take a stand.

The modern can deny both sides because both participate in him, at one time or another.
He remains cynical because nothing touches him. He is safe within the social, which allows him to remain as schizophrenic as possible, if he pays the price for this "privilege", now called a "right".

His madness has no real-world consequences, beyond what can be corrected with the appropriate effort/work/commitment.
The system shelters him so as to allow him to remain as confused and internally fragmented as he wishes, gaining control over him through this internal absence of cohesion ...the only rule is that you do not disrupt, disturb, the internal fragmentation of others."

Lastly Increase in chaos can also imply an increase in randomness, as even though regularity to some events can be predicted, while outcomes remain probabilistic, unpredictable, there's nothing to say these unpredictable outcomes don't reloop again into events disturbing those regularities.


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PostSubject: Re: Thermodynamics and Entropy Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:54 pm

Lyssa wrote:
But if Order and structure itself was defined by him in terms of flow of energy, then I fail to see how anything he said was inaccurate;

Then let me help you.

Satyr wrote:
For, if order is a resistance, a rarity, in the norm towards entropy then its gradual decline would mean a proportional increase in the movement towards entropy."

If order is a resistance, order isn't flow.


Quote :
In fact, I find it practising what it cautions Satyr of. Speaking of local entropic decrease here to make a case against feminization and calling it a glorifying a 'cult of pain' is It thinking of entropy in terms of structure alone, as in any mixed humanity, any kind of order is supposedly a sign of decreased entropy.

That's his logic, not mine. I was pointing out that according to his own logic, hedonism is order.

Quote :
When one affirms there is something positive in all things, and uses that to justify race-mixing, this kind of levelling - this kind of thermodynamic 'balance' - all superior resistance being dissisipated into the system till there is an equilibrium - this is not 'glorifying' a cult of pain but one more sign of the Drift towards max. entropy occuring even locally I would say. Objectivity is the Discernment that not every kind of 'order' is life-affirmative; the current system and the 'order' it promotes is very life-denying. Satyr has already commented on this;

We are not at a risk of elimination of any particular ethnicity, so long as we respect the rules that have been established within societies, which give the individuals the ultimate authority on their reproductive functions, and therefore, aryans may continue to be attracted to and mate with other aryans and thus provide many future generations of beautiful, pure [in]bred blond babies. Unless they don't want to, in which case, they are the ones to answer for their choices, aren't they?

I don't think that anyone needs to justify race-mixing as much as they need to justify race purity, and I don't think anyone does. I think that these considerations only come into place when someone makes it their business to go and actively criticize race-mixing, which I think nobody has the standing to do.

I for example, have a different definition for what is life-denying, like an omnivore to refuse to eat meat. But I'm not about to make it my business.
I want for those weaklings to fall under the weight of their own poor decisions.
Wink

In any case, there is absolutely nothing at all in the natural world that compels peoples of different races to mix. This is not a flow that is comparable to heat flow, which is spontaneous.


Quote :
In other words, there is a negative Apollonian tendency where order tends to petrification, abstraction and a severance of word to phenomenon characterizing Modernity, and there is a negative Dionysian tendency where order tends to extreme fluidity and undifferentiation, an extreme merging of word into the phenomenal current, characterizing the simulacra and the polysemantic fictitiousness of Post-modernity.

Nihilism is a tilt in either way. Balance in the aesthetic sense, is a Dionysian checking on apollonian petrification, and Apollonian checking on the dionysian over-fluidity.

Thank you for the use of the word tendency, dear.

In any case, I am not criticizing the use of entropy as an allegory to philosophical proposals. What I am criticizing is to confuse what is allegoric with what is scientifically factual, and then to pretend that your philosophical proposal is scientifically factual.

Kind of like when you were going "Prove that entropy is not real! Prove it!" ...
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