Know Thyself

Nothing in Excess
 
HomePortalFAQMemberlistSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:17 pm

Is cyclical time theory or eternal return possible when it concerns the universe? What are other people's opinion on this? I think it is possible if there is no beginning or end of the universe especially if existence itself is infinite.

If the universe is infinite patterns are bound to repeat over and over again.

I try to live my life on the basis of eternal return.

Quote :
Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across infinite time and/or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected it as a thought experiment to argue for amor fati.

In addition, the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence was addressed by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is viewed as being not linear but cyclical.

The basic premise proceeds from the assumption that the probability of a world coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence will recur an infinite number of times.

In 1871, Louis Auguste Blanqui, assuming a Newtonian cosmology where time and space are infinite proceeded to show that the eternal recurrence was a mathematical certainty.[1] In the post-Einstein period, there are doubts that time or space is in fact infinite, but many models exist which provide the notion of spatial or temporal infinity required by the eternal return hypothesis.

The oscillatory universe model in physics could be provided as an example of how the universe cycles through the same events infinitely. Stephen Hawking's concept "arrow of time", for example, discuss cosmology as proceeding up to a certain point, after which it undergoes a time reversal (which, as a consequence of T-symmetry, is thought to bring about a chaotic state due to entropy).[citation needed] Hawking and J. Richard Gott have also proposed models by which a/the universe could undergo time travel, provided the balance between mass and energy created the appropriate cosmological geometry.[citation needed]

Multiverse hypotheses in physics describe models where space and or time is infinite, although local universes with their own big bangs could be finite space-time bubbles.

The symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake or dragon devouring its own tail, is the alchemical symbol par excellence of eternal recurrence, possibly borrowed from the Norse concept of Jörmungandr or the Midgard Serpent. The alchemist-physicians of the Renaissance and Reformation were aware of the idea of eternal recurrence; the physician-philosopher Sir Thomas Browne in his A Letter to a Friend circa 1657 linked the Uroboros symbol with the idea of eternal return thus -

that the first day should make the last, that the Tail of the Snake should return into its Mouth precisely at that time, and they should wind up upon the day of their Nativity, is indeed a remarkable Coincidence, which tho Astrology hath taken witty pains to salve, yet hath it been very wary in making Predictions of it.

[T]ime is infinite, but the things in time, the concrete bodies, are finite. They may indeed disperse into the smallest particles; but these particles, the atoms, have their determinate numbers, and the numbers of the configurations which, all of themselves, are formed out of them is also determinate. Now, however long a time may pass, according to the eternal laws governing the combinations of this eternal play of repetition, all configurations which have previously existed on this earth must yet meet, attract, repulse, kiss, and corrupt each other again...[10]

Nietzsche calls the idea "horrifying and paralyzing",[citation needed] and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight" ("das schwerste Gewicht")[11] imaginable. The wish for the eternal return of all events would mark the ultimate affirmation of life:

My formula for human greatness is amor fati: that one wants to have nothing different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely to bear the necessary, still less to conceal it--all idealism is mendaciousness before the necessary--but to love it.

Related to the concept of eternal return is the Poincaré recurrence theorem in mathematics. It states that a system whose dynamics are volume-preserving and which is confined to a finite spatial volume will, after a sufficiently long time, return to an arbitrarily small neighborhood of its initial state. "A sufficiently long time" could be much longer than the predicted lifetime of the universe (see 1 E19 s and more).

[edit] Modern cosmology

Controversial theoretical physicist Peter Lynds suggested a model of eternal recurrence in a 2006 paper.[14] Lynds hypothesizes that if the universe undergoes a big crunch, the arrow of time may reverse. Others have approached the question of eternal recurrence from a physics perspective in different ways, including a hypothesis based on the transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics.[15] Other cosmologists such as Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Max Tegmark consider the possibility that the known universe is just one of many in a multiverse, presenting the argument that existences identical to our own recur infinitely over infinite space.[16] Currently all recurring cosmological models are very controversial within the scientific community, especially due to the fact that there is no evidence to support them. Furthermore, several models proposed in the past have been refuted such as the bouncing model.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Return




Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:41 pm

Quote :
What is Eternal Recurrence? (Also Called "Eternal Return")
"This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence�even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it . . ."
From Nietzsche's book, 'The Gay Science', Section 341



Waking Up from the Social Dream


About 40,000 years ago, during what is called the human 'Upper Palaeolithic Revolution', our predictive capacities developed to the point where we saw our inevitable death. A tiger jumping at us out of the bushes was not necessary to scare the hell out of us. Our minds did it, and we mobilized to act. The result - 40 millennia of social fantasies. Tribal religions, spirits, afterworlds, legends, taboos, good and evils, social mores of conduct, superstitions � many of them delightful and moving but mostly lots of nervous low-level entertainment, social worries and bickering, see-saws of belief and doubt, all marinated in continuous mind chatter. In the last two millennia we have become more organized, more global, more cluttered in our social fantasies: nations, bibles, "history", "knowledge", astrology, universities, literature, science, religions and ideologies. It's time to realize the silliness of these fake worlds which are �bigger than us�, which give �meaning� to our �small lives�, where we in some way continue after death. We don't live on in heaven or hell or in God's lap or in a new body. We don't live on in our reputation or in our small contribution to science or scholarship or knowledge. We don't live on in the memories of those who knew us or in an invention or idea named after us or a book we wrote. We don't live on in our good works or being a good citizen or "making the world a little better" or living a morally good life.

We are not different from animals, only they're more awake while we spend most of our time head-dancing in our big frontal lobes.

The thought of eternal recurrence is a means for us to wake up.


How Long Until We Return ?

A very, very, very long time.

How many years? We need a big number. A billion is 1000000000, a 1 with 9 zeros after it. A googol is a number with 100 zeros after the 1. A googolplex is a number with a googol amount of zeros after the 1. Too small. The mathematicians invented the "Graham number" which the Guinness World Records listed as the "World Champion largest number". It is too large to be written in scientific notation because even the digits in the exponent would exceed the number of atoms in the observable universe. Well, even this is much, much, much too small a number of years. We're not talking about shuffling a deck of cards or the sand pebbles of a beach. We're talking about shuffling the position and motion of every atom in the universe. However, eventually there is an incredibly large finite number of years when "the music box repeats it's tune".

This is a long time to wait. To handle the wait the universe gives us the "cheerful magic of death".

The Cheerful Magic of Death
To confront the multiple Graham number of years for the return, the cheerful magic of death provides that

there is no waiting


The moment after you die you "wake up" as the baby you were.

But when the music box plays the tune again - Is it still you?



Is it You that Returns or another Person Exactly Like You ?
It is you.

Luckily, you are not separated from the universe. You are not a "ghost in a machine". The ghost would die forever and the machine would come back. You not only have a deep connection, at every instant, with your body, the earth and it's universe. Every instant you are your body, this earth, it's universe and nothing else.

When the exact same universe returns, you're there.

Do I have a Choice, a Chance, to Make Each Return a Little Different ? A Little Better ?

No choice, no chance, no different, no better . . . (and no worse).

Each time you return it's exactly the same you. If there were the slightest infinitesimal difference, the butterfly effect would not only radically change your entire life and the future course of human history but radically change the whole future of the universe such that at the incredibly large number of years after which you are supposed to return, you wouldn't be there since the universe would be radically different.

That's how well connected you are to the universe.



If We Are Exactly the Same Each Time, What About Free Will ?

Nietzsche attacked the idea of free will repeatedly and mercilessly: �'free will' � the foulest of all theologians' artifices � has been invented essentially for the purpose of punishment, that is, because one wanted to impute guilt. . . . we immoralists are trying with all our strength to take the concept of guilt and the concept of punishment out of the world again." [1]
If we deny the religious moralist his sado-masochistic pleasure tool, is there any other use for this idea? Probably not.
University philosophers have long played entertaining mind games trying to prove free will true or false, but it was not much more than entertainment.

Any "what-if" statement applied to the past is absolutely silly. The butterfly-effect is not an observation but a mathematical aspect of complex systems, and "complex systems" encompasses everything in the universe outside of billiard tables and chemistry-lab test-tubes. It says that any one little "what if this were different" radically changes whatever follows. If I had not gotten that parking ticket in 1972, all four of my children would never have existed.

Seeing everything in your past as fate is wise. It's very close to having no regrets and no resentments.

Seeing your evolving present actions as fate is also wise. Experience, emotion and intelligence flow more smoothly, genuinely and gracefully. You're not plagued by sputtering "decisions". It's much easier to ride your spirit.

Seeing your future as fate is hardest and wisest of all. Decidiphobia (fear of decisions), feeling that choosing one person or path over another will be letting the experience of that other person or path die forever, seeing and being paralyzed by this abyss-fantasy, is a comic situation. What makes you think you have such god-like powers to see and �save a world"? Life is awareness, experience and feelings, all with a spirit and flow of their own, obeying the iron laws of yin and yang, up and down. You can never know what that person or path would have been for you and certainly it would not have been all "wonderfulness".


Can I Remember Previous Recurrences?

No. That's silly.

Rare, random, playful, uncontrollable psychic glimpses of the future or deja vu feelings might be possible, but they would come from the world you are living in now, not some cosmic memory that spans a multiple graham number of years.

Thank goodness we don't remember, for it would rob life of its freshness, excitement and surprise.



Waking up - Making the World Appear.

Animals dream and probably day-dream but most of the time, assuming they haven't been made neurotic by contact with humans, they are awake, the world appears before them and becomes the center stage of their lives. Humans live in an opposite manner. The center stage is their social fantasies while they flittingly and mechanically check in and act upon the world around them. Ancient Eastern wisdom is full of hopes and techniques for quieting the mind, for enlightenment, satori and awakening. But we are all still mesmerized and fooled by man's 40,000 year old project of avoiding personal death through projecting our �selves� into social dreams, moralities, hopes, projects, plans, legends, good and evils.

In believing in personal eternal recurrence, that our life is completely solid, repeating itself forever, the �self� becomes unimportant. This �self� is always what you imagine what others imagine what you are. All this social imagining becomes silly to you. You're left with the world that appears before you.


Eternal Recurrence and the Will to Laughter
Awareness is the world's mystical experience.

Nietzsche thought that the basic "stuff" of the world was not atoms or love or survival or God but the "will to power". I accept power as the best candidate, but I propose a complimentary yin-yang partner. I call it the �will to laughter" (or just "laughter" if "power" is its partner) and it is intimately involved with Eternal Recurrence. It is the world's delight and happiness in it's own useless dance, the eternal laughable folly of power, the lightness of awareness, the freedom of not wanting or having to make the world better.

We humans waste life on a neurotic, futile, social fantasy flight from our personal death. We have lost the majestic awareness that animals have for their world. What we consider most powerful, our "consciousness" or �mind�, this chatterbox mish-mosh of awareness, thought, head-dancing and fantasy-world, is a clown, forever laughable.

We haven't even come close to seeing or accepting the first basic truth of our modern situation, that technology is life's way of making a species weaker. Every time we get in a car instead of walking or running or dancing . . . every time we cover symptoms with drugs or play it safe with shotgun antibiotic consumption . . . every time we apply university categories or theories to our local situation instead of waking up to look at it . . . every time we substitute the fake drama of movies and TV for the drama and play of those close to us . . . every day we live in those artificial, sterile, controllable, laboratory-like boxes called houses, offices and stores . . . - . . . our bodies get a little weaker, a little stupider. Human pretensions of power are an amazingly huge source of laughter. After many generations of this behaviour the human body will become extremely weak and fragile. We will have squandered the 2 billion year strength that our bodies have accumulated without technology. It may be time for life to invent something new.

The greatest power in the universe, truly infinite, is the 'butterfly effect'. Whether you wave your hand towards the right or the left will totally change the faces of every person on earth 500 years from now and into eternity. Here infinite power meets infinite laughter - for this power is infinitely useless.

Is There a Proof of Eternal Recurrence?

Not empirically. There is no outside observer to take and compare notes during the double multiple Graham-years wait until two returns had passed. God, who might volunteer for the job, is too busy trying to prove that he exists.

Nietzsche made a couple of logical attempts at proofs in his notes, but he was never so convinced of them as to publish them.

My "proof" is "experiential". It comes from the sense and feeling of the non-neurotic solidity of existence, of awareness. It is indicated in the following paradox:

If death is real, why are we so calm? . . . . . If death is not real, why are we so nervous?

There is a yin-yang dynamic going on here. The abyss, the personal extinction that would last forever, if it were true, would be too devastating and paralysing psychologically. Yes, death is very real. In a near car accident the adrenaline rush of our body tells us it's very real. But the extinction that our predictive minds first saw 40,000 years ago, is not eternal. Yes, a very, very, very big number of years, but not eternal. The world as it is now returns. Everything we are aware of, every wandering moment of awareness is not fleeting but eternal, repeating itself eternally and us with it. The world loves you so much it repeats you forever.

In the end a rock solid proof of eternal recurrence is elusive, but this is the case for all "knowledge", theories and philosophies. The only solid rock certainty, put forward by Descartes, "I think, therefore I am" is almost true but not quite. Thinking is the most ghostly of activities and is always neurotically trying to make itself fixed and lasting, always chasing the belief, "this thought will survive my death". Despite its wandering nature, awareness is the most solid of rocks. "I am aware of the sky, I am aware of that tree, I am aware of thinking, therefore I exist." You may be wrong about the words sky, tree or thinking but you are sure about being aware of something, about being aware. "I am aware, therefore I exist". Awareness and existence are the same.

What might be more important to ask than a "proof" of the theory of eternal recurrence is . . . what is the value of this theory? Is it a gateway to a "new health"? . . . . . My answer: It's the only "projection-mind-game" with the possibility of waking up, of happily and playfully dissolving itself to allow the possibility of localizing yourself in your immediate world, to allow what Fritz Perls so elegantly expressed as "losing your mind, and coming to your senses".




Does Eternal Recurrence Imply a New Morality?

Not as I see it.
You could say eternal recurrence implies a new "natural morality" which is close to "animal morality". "Animal morality" ?! The incongruity of "animal" and "morality" seen together reveals the scam. The incongruity says, "animals die but we don't". It's better to just dump the word.

Without morality, are we free to do anything we want ? No, there are always consequences. You can't walk through walls. You can't step on toes of others without them getting mad. You can't threaten someone without him defending himself in one way or another. But this isn't morality, it's intelligence.

What eternal recurrence does imply is a new "health", which follows from an awakening from the social dream to the world around us. This world around us of course includes our body, which contains all the "dos and don'ts" that animals have, a passion to defend itself and its family, a great wisdom and intelligence, a "will to power" and a "will to laughter".

At its center, morality implies cheating life of its death. The moral head dance can provide great low-level entertainment but it will forever miss the sparkling, crystalline, raw vitality of existence.



Is Eternal Recurrence the "Greatest Weight"?

It doesn't seem heavy to me.

Section 341 of the Gay Science is called "The Greatest Weight" and it contains Nietzsche's best description of eternal recurrence. The first half of this section is above, at the beginning of this essay. The second half goes on as follows:

"Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine." If this thought gained possession of you, it would change you as you are or perhaps crush you. The question in each and every thing, "Do you desire this once more and innumerable times more?" would lie upon your actions as the greatest weight. Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?"

This "greatest weight" that Nietzsche mentions as one possible reaction does not refer directly to eternal recurrence itself but to paralyzing "decisions". This is the weight of morality intruding itself again. Let's have, let's repeat the "good stuff", only joy or happiness or clever thoughts or "good works" rather than having, repeating fear or suffering or stupid thoughts or "evil" deeds. But making our life truly "better" (not just looking better) is eternally problematic and not so simple. The universe is playing a joke on us.

Let's take joy as an example. True deep thunderous joy, not the posed joy seen on faces in advertising or "positive thinking", is always preceded by its yin-yang partner, by a period, long or short, of fear. The patient receiving a lab report ruling out cancer, the successful flight from a war zone, victory in battle, getting a good mark on a final exam in college, the landing of a good job ... all these joys are preceded by fear of one sort or another - the more fear, the deeper the joy. Smaller joys are surrounded by smaller fears. So trying to fill your life with joy (and the other good things) is a stage for comedy. Life is both giving us it's greatest imperatives (the essence of pain is to run away from it) and joking with us . . . but we don't get the joke.

No, the paralyzing weight of decision is the moral game revisted: "will this save me from death?". Forget it. Ride your spirit instead.


The Iron Law of Yin-Yang

There is no isolated happiness or suffering, only a happiness-suffering flow back and forth. Happiness is the release from suffering. Suffering is the loss of happiness. There would be no happiness without suffering. There would be no suffering without happiness. The flow is uncontrollable and uncanny. This same yin-yang applies to every human and non-human aspect of the universe: good-evil, joy-fear, peace-struggle, knowledge-ignorance, wave-particle, subject-object, energy-matter, power-laughter, light-darkness, ad infinitum. Yin-yang makes the world dance.

Human progress has been and will always be ... perfectly zero. The more knowledge universities accumulate, the more possibilities there are for ignorance, for being mesmerised by their structured categories, ideas and theories instead of looking at a situation as an intelligent organism. The more comfort and security is made by a generation with memories of hard or dangerous times, the more their children will be rebellious and look for thrills. The more toys technology spits out the more nervous boredom we have. The more entertaining our living in videoland is, the more our bodies know it's flat, lifeless and unreal. America's historical mission is to prove that you can't make the world better.

We need not pity or envy any being in the universe, past or future. The newly hatched turtle with the strength of his body and instincts racing happily across the sand towards the sea only to be killed and eaten by a seagull is no less fortunate than the life of a Nobel prize winner whose hard work to get it drove his wife crazy and made her divorce him. Both lives have their share of happiness and suffering and repeat themselves continuously for eternity. I'm not sure which life is more boring.

"No progress? Effort will not make the world better or happier or more just? We might as well do nothing." Go ahead, do nothing . . . . . . until you get bored and your body tells you to do something exciting and forget about the idea of yin-yang. Doing only nothing is just another impossible attempt to get out of the flow of yin-yang. The universe is laughing.



Will the Thought of Eternal Recurrence Bring You or Humanity to a Higher Level?

No. With Nietzsche (Ecco Homo, Preface, Section 2), I don't believe in "ideals" which bring us to any "higher level". Effort towards an ideal is a comic activity. There is no hierarchy of levels of happiness-suffering, only near-infinite colors of happiness-suffering. Your spirit, which changes you effortlessly, will determine if and how the thought of eternal recurrence will affect you.

There are higher types of human beings, the non-neurotic types, but they appear by uncontollable fate, not choice and effort. In fact, ideal, choice and effort together are the symptoms of neurosis.

Nietzsche's hints at eugenics were a major blunder. Humans are just too stupid to use eugenics to create a higher species. Following their "ideals", they would probably sterilize everyone with an SAT math score lower than 700, not realizing that concept manipulation is one of the most useless forms of intelligence. They would slice out the "gene for aggression" so we would be all peaceful and cooperative and orderly and dull. "Making the world better" is full of laughs.

No Ideals? Does This Mean We Value Nothing?

We constantly bring value into the world, every moment, by every act or non-act we make. Life is a dance of giving value. Placing value is the joy of life, is life itself. But this happens only on a local, immediate level, in awareness-space, never on fantasies called eternal "values", "ideas" and "ideals". When someone speaks up at a political or religious meeting, it is to stimulate or hearten those real people at that meeting. Most of the time he does it with fantasies of one kind or another, but it's the excitement in those bodies which produces his own excitement. The fact that the magic of ideals come and go, that we argue over them, that different cultures and sub-cultures have opposite ideals, shows they are not "eternal" and never will be. There is forever a dance between belief and non-belief and there's no way of not dancing. The eternal "will to laughter" is shinning through.
Equal Happiness-Suffering for All? Couldn't This Be Used by Oppressors to Justify Oppression?

Yes. But they'd have to hide the philosophy from the oppressed. "Riding your spirit" could include a powerful, sustained dose of rebellion.


What is the Compensating Yin-Yang Partner of the Misery of Dying?

The completion of dying is immediately followed by that magnificent surge of life, joy and power which is the embryo-baby-child.



Loved Ones

All my life I have loved periods and moments of sadness. It seemed to me to be a noble emotion, both hurtful and sweet. However, I'm not quite sure where it fits in the belief of eternal personal recurrence . . . because . . . you never really say "goodbye" to your loved ones, you say, "see you in 30 years" or just "see you soon".

Perhaps animals are right. They never cry. Their periods of mourning seem very short or not there at all.

Waking Up to Your Children

Morals are silly and poisonous. You will not "save" your children in any way. Your "responsibilities" to them are physical protection (food and basic shelter), making their childhood childlike (90% of which is leaving them alone) and enjoying their company as much as your spirit can (since you will be spending eternity with them). Until the rest of your neighbors and fellow citizens give up their religious and/or self-realization moral crusades (which may be never) you'll also have to gently protect them from your neighbors.

Social and moral pretensions dissolve and you are left watching these wonder-ous, miraculous beings. If there is an ounce of play left in your spirit you can interact with these play-teachers and you're in the best heaven that life can give.


Eternal Recurrence Gives You Courage.

The life you live continues uninterrupted for eternity, repeating itself. Knowing this, a long life does not seem so important as it used to be. Your body naturally strives for a full and fruitful life. However the higher spirit of your body knows that whether you live 40 or 80 or 20 or even 5 years, it is not too important. You can take risks.

Becoming a Spiritual Adventurer

Awareness is the world's mystical experience. Give the world a thrill. Become a spiritual adventurer.

All the wasted energy of trying to make believe you continue after death evaporates. The world appears. Adventures can begin. Of course your world contains numerous people who will not like anyone exposing, mocking or even ignoring their social fantasies. You still play the social games - only they're not important anymore. Those close to you, family and friends, probably won't understand. It doesn't matter. They are more real and more lovely to look at than ever. You respond as you always have, but without the fear, without the edge. Laughter is always very close . . . but unseen.

Urges to preach "The New Awareness" to yourself or others give you a hearty laugh. It is as self-contradictory as a zen koan.

Nietzsche's "love of fate", "that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity" becomes more real to you.

There's no one to save, no one to bring to self-realization, no one even to awaken. Either you're destined to have the thought of eternal recurrence hit you or you're not.

What kind of adventures will you have? No one can tell you. It's in your spirit and only you can ride your spirit.

http://www.eternal-recurrence.com/

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:39 pm

TheJoker wrote:
Is cyclical time theory or eternal return possible when it concerns the universe? What are other people's opinion on this? I think it is possible if there is no beginning or end of the universe especially if existence itself is infinite.

If the universe is infinite patterns are bound to repeat over and over again.

In an infinite expanse of existence it would almost be certain that there exists all possible patterns of phenomena. The infinite plain of existence would be so 'all-encompassing' that these patterns of phenomena would appear to blend fluidly from one to another. At some location and time another individual just like yourself would be living a life exactly like your own down to the most minute detail, the most significant difference being that his key board lies one centimeter further to the left than yours..

You would keep finding phenomena that appeared just like the above continuously with greater and greater differences until the individual would bear no resemblance to yourself, and then utterly and completely alien.

No clue what this would mean for our own individual 'consciousness', but the paper below might be of interest.
http://www.naturalism.org/death.htm
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:58 am

ReluctantPacifist wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
Is cyclical time theory or eternal return possible when it concerns the universe? What are other people's opinion on this? I think it is possible if there is no beginning or end of the universe especially if existence itself is infinite.

If the universe is infinite patterns are bound to repeat over and over again.

In an infinite expanse of existence it would almost be certain that there exists all possible patterns of phenomena. The infinite plain of existence would be so 'all-encompassing' that these patterns of phenomena would appear to blend fluidly from one to another. At some location and time another individual just like yourself would be living a life exactly like your own down to the most minute detail, the most significant difference being that his key board lies one centimeter further to the left than yours..

You would keep finding phenomena that appeared just like the above continuously with greater and greater differences until the individual would bear no resemblance to yourself, and then utterly and completely alien.

No clue what this would mean for our own individual 'consciousness', but the paper below might be of interest.
http://www.naturalism.org/death.htm

Well what I'm saying is that person would still be the same you.

In infinity all patterns and sequences eternally repeat themselves. Consciousness also repeats.

If there is a form of consciousness that is a exact copy of another in my book they are one and the same.


Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:28 pm

TheJoker wrote:
If there is a form of consciousness that is a exact copy of another in my book they are one and the same.

I would personally err on the side of it not being you. An exact copy is still just an exact 'copy'...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:33 pm

ReluctantPacifist wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
If there is a form of consciousness that is a exact copy of another in my book they are one and the same.

I would personally err on the side of it not being you. An exact copy is still just an exact 'copy'...


A copy that is identical every sort of the way is still you especially if you have passed or expired in the old state of existence with the newer replica existing within the newly created one.

It wouldn't really matter all that much at all.

Even the consciousness would be a exact replica or copy down to most extreme matters of thought and perception.

It would indeed be you.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:53 pm

TheJoker wrote:
If there is a form of consciousness that is a exact copy of another in my book they are one and the same

I do not see how two absolutely 'qualitatively' identical objects equates being one and the same.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:54 pm

ReluctantPacifist wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
If there is a form of consciousness that is a exact copy of another in my book they are one and the same

I do not see how two absolutely 'qualitatively' identical objects equates being one and the same.

One exists while the other is extinguished. The one extinguished becomes replaced.

The one that replaces exists while the other does not.

If it's qualitatively identical it is also reduced to quantifying similarities as well.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:57 pm

To extinguish one and replace with another?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:58 pm

ReluctantPacifist wrote:
To extinguish one and replace with another?

The copies never exist in the same space and time.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:05 pm

TheJoker wrote:
ReluctantPacifist wrote:
To extinguish one and replace with another?

The copies never exist in the same space and time.

Your sense of identity comes from the experience of 'continuance', starting with your first memories and the undivided stream they make to the present. to be extinguished and replaced surely ends identity.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:08 pm

ReluctantPacifist wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
ReluctantPacifist wrote:
To extinguish one and replace with another?

The copies never exist in the same space and time.

Your sense of identity comes from the experience of 'continuance', starting with your first memories and the undivided stream they make to the present. to be extinguished and replaced surely ends identity.

In the infinity of things even expiriences will become repeated in reoccuring.

Expiriences are nothing more than just different kinds of patterns and sequences.

Quote :
to be extinguished and replaced surely ends identity.

Not if the new identity makes up the same as the older one extinguished.

In the cyclical nature of time if I had the ability to look at the past or future all I would be doing is nothing more than staring back at myself.
Back to top Go down
Satyr
Daemon
avatar

Gender : Male Pisces Posts : 14631
Join date : 2009-08-24
Age : 51
Location : Flux

PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:28 pm

The issue here is continuity.

What enables continuity?
The passing on of information or codes...also called memory.

If all memory is erased, including genetic memory, then the self is dissolved into the chaos.

What is code, memory?
Ordered experiences; ordered interactions.

_________________
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
μηδέν άγαν
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://satyr.canadian-forum.com/
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return

Back to top Go down
 
Space and Time Theories: Eternal Return
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.
» IMF: Iraq will return to the market mid-2016
» James Webb Space Telescope Progress
» Interferometric space telescopes
» Theories Proven Wrong

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Know Thyself :: AGORA-
Jump to: