Existence...

Physics is based on what is not observable. Theories. Chaos theory. Possibilities, not actualities.

Patterns are observable. Patterns actually exist.

Where have I claimed to know everything?

You are acting against your own logic. What is not verifiable.

I am acting according to your logic. What is verifiable.

Without chaos life is no different from inanimate matter - a stone and a man are the same.

WendyDarling wrote:

Physics is based on what is not observable. Theories. Chaos theory. Possibilities, not actualities.

Patterns are observable. Patterns actually exist.

Where have I claimed to know everything?

You are acting against your own logic.  What is not verifiable.

I am acting according to your logic.  What is verifiable.

Physics are based on perceiving patterns - behaviours - of patterns , matter/energy.
They are founded on the observable.

Chaos also can be indirectly observed by how it affects order - indirectly.
Chaos refers to energies with no consistent, repeating, predictability.

If all were a pattern there would be no need for choice to evolve.
Nothing to choose, to select.
All would be determined.
Consciousness would be unnecessary. Everything would follow a path that was part of absolute order.

Satyr wrote:

If all were a pattern there would be no need for choice to evolve.
Nothing to choose, to select.
All would be determined.
Consciousness would be unnecessary. Everything would follow a path that was part of absolute order.

Imagine a patchwork quilt. The quilt housing a pattern made up of squares. Each square is a quilt housing another quilt ad infinitum.

A superior consciousness makes the framework of the quilt. The boundaries, the natural laws, the unknown laws. Each square is "us", at least, one of us with limited consciousness(unable to perceive/assess anything that is not in our square), designing our own quilt within our square. Naturally our quilt also has many squares. The pattern within a pattern within a pattern.

This is a work in progress. What do you think?

As long as it makes you happy, dear.
Like this "superior consciousness" who creates all but is uncreated, contradicting your own "logic".
You need this creator...so believe in him, her, it.
Doesn't matter.

All is order...so you and a stone are no different.
Congratulations, you found unity.

Then ask yourself...
A quilt is repeating patterns.
Precise, accurate.
Do you perceive reality as repeating with such predictable precision?
Then how does progress develop if all is part of an absolute pattern?
How does divergence emerge?

Rome would never become America...it would repeat ad infinitum...why would Rome even develop...why would life be necessary....God's will, yes? He just wanted to create a species to torture, knowing what tis fate is because he designed it and it could never diverge from this design
Do you think existence is a cosmic joke on us?
Is change an illusion?

History repeats....but if it were absolutely ordered, like a quilt, it would repeat in exactly the same way, forever.

So, in closing, because this is going nowhere but back to Abraham's church...
God created all - but is uncreated - and then created man to be ignorant, but he remains convinced that he is free, has choice, when his choices are part of god's plan.
Man suffers and can't do anything about it because it's part of an absolute plan, an absolute pattern, a quilt....but, despite this, man tries to reduce his suffering and ignorance, not knowing that god is laughing at him, because he has no free-will, and its all part of god's plan, which is?
What?
A testing of what he knows the outcome of?
So, god is a vicious sadist.

We exist in a universe where it repeats forever, and we cannot not live through what we live through, because it's all part of a totalitarian absolute order?
Then what are you challenging exactly? Am I not, also, part of a repeating pattern?
Are you convinced you are challenging part of the pattern which can't not be what it is? So you claim to be delusional, by believing you are challenging what cannot be challenged.

I suggest cynicism as your fate.
If this is what you truly believe then you should hope it is fated that you laugh rather than cry at what happens to you.
Let's hope it's part of the quilt.

Look at ILP, sweetie...your kind is supporting you. It's wonderful when birds of a feather flock together.
Embrace your fate.
Hope - this too has been determined - that good things will happen to you, according to god's plan.

Cover yourself in that warm comforting quilt.

There's nothing more to be shared.
We are not of the same breed of man.

In the future, if it is willed that I respond to you then I will respond. If not, then I will not.
Don't blame me.
I'm just part of the creator's quilt.
I have no choice, because choice is illusory.

And if someone harms you, it ain't his or her fault either. It's all part of an absolute pattern.
So stop seeking and start enduring and hoping that you will be enlightened as to why it was fated for you to suffer thus.

Your earlier contention was that chaos is not observable. Now you contend that chaos is observable.

Which is it?

One more fuckin' time, just because it has been determined that I do so:

All is Energy....all is dynamic interactive, process.
This is existence.
We can't say one existence because this implies none, or two, or ten...are there ten existences?
No. There is only existence, call it world, reality, nature, universe, cosmsos, whatever you like.
Multi-verses would be part of existence.

Here is where you become confused, desperate to preserve your eternal soul in a singularity, a one.

Existence in relation to man - organism, ordering mind - displays patterned and non-patterned energies - order/chaos.
We can only perceive order (patterns) because we depend on them and are made of them.
We are harvesters of order. We admire higher order and call it beautiful, inspiring, awesome in American lingo.
Chaotic energies cannot be perceived because they cannot form stable, harmonious unities, so as to reach a level where man's sensual acuity can perceive them
Nevertheless, they interact, because they exist, with patterned energies. but we can perceive them indirectly through how they affect patterns - slightly modifying them, changing them, so that patterns never repeat in absolutely the same ways eternally.
Free-will is not an illusion, we perceive it as choice - will is expressed through choice - it isn't absolutely free.
We participate in this natural interaction of patterns and non-patterns on the side of order. We participate even when we think we don't, because our consciousness, like a plant, is not necessary. Biology evolves automatic reactions to stimuli. We judge and choose intuitively, unconsciously

Am I declaring this as an absolute?
No.
I claim there are no absolutes so this would include me.
I claim a superior explanation of experienced reality. you don't have to accept my posiitons...in fact I wish you wouldn't.
Or, should I say, I hope it is fated that you wont?

This metaphysical position is not necessary for my other insights to have merit.
My observations of world, patterned reality, is founded on a metaphysics which include non-patterned reality to explain why life emerged, what will is, and how human choice - will - is part of how fate is determined.

Now you, can throw it all away.
Don't care.
You can continue living ni a world where you are no more than a stone, or a drop of water, or a photon...
You need to sacrifice will to gain eternal life. I understand the need.
Others need to remain innocent, have no responsibility, no culpability ni their own fate....so be it.
I only hope they remain true to their own logic and stop accusing me or anyone for what happens to them.
According to your own "logic" you can't accuse me of anything....since I am also part of a plan, a quilt.
When you ask me for my opinion it isn't I who will answer, ro not answer.
I have no agency. I have no will of my own.
I am but a conduit, or part of a quilt, in your world view. I have no answers...so what are you seeking and from who?
Not I.
So, you hope that I will provide answers for what you already know the fundamental nature of.
This is all a mind game, a joke.
A way of self-apeasment...which is determined by forces outside our control.
You should redirect your energies to serving this one-god, and I can continue living, as it has been determined, in my own private hell.
There are plenty of minds like yours on ILP...you know, indulging in a cynical display, a comedy/tragedy, which has been determined - written by a writer, quilted by divine hands - and can only be enjoyed as a universal play.
God willing.

WendyDarling wrote:

Your earlier contention was that chaos is not observable. Now you contend that chaos is observable.

Which is it?

No dear..I said chaos is not directly observable, but only through how it interacts with order.
Chaos refers to energies which exist....
I defined existence.
I also said there are no absolutes, which means order and chaos are not absolutes but words referring to energies as these relate to an organism, which is ordering.

If it has been determined for me to continue this I will...if not, do not blame me. It is my fate to be so.

Imagine a vibrating string, only it is oscillating across multiple dimensions.
That is Energy.
There is no string...there is only vibration/oscillation.

Now imagine that this vibration has a particular sequence, a rhythms, a tone.
The sequence going across dimensions, signifying possibility of interaction.
Such a sequence would be order - a patterned sequence.
Predictable, consistent, repeating.
Order can combine with other patterns to form unities.

Harmonious sequences synthesize, form stable unities.

But there are vibrations - Energies - that lack a consistent, repeating, sequence - they are random, unpredictable, inconsistent - chaotic.
These cannot combine into unities, because they are inconsistent, unpredictable so they are disharmonious with all, including other chaotic energies.
They remain on the Plank level....the infinitesimal....but still interact with patterned Energies - affecting and being affected by them.

Pattern = probability of interacting within a dimension.
Non-Patterned = possibility of interacting within a dimension.
Dimension = space - possibility of interacting. Therefore space is experienced as void, darkness but it is not void of energy.
There is no absolute zero degrees.
Energy is Existence.
Within this void/darkness - expanding chaotic possibilities - a conscious mind - itself a product of order - perceives order, interpreting as kinds, types of matter and energy. the type determined by the particular patterns sequence.

Now chaos can never be absolute cannot reach an absolute state of chaos - in theory this would mean all were equally possible.....that is not a state life can emerge. Life needs consistency, predictability, order.
What is another way of saying this - order is the negation of possibilities and the promotion of some possibilities - this is what is called probability.

Since there are no absolutes - no indivisible, immutable singularities - neither chaos nor order can be completed - can produce a uniform state of chaos or a singularity of absolute roder - certainty.
absolute roder would means no dimensions, no possibilities. All would be a singularity.
A one-diemensional point of infinite mass. It would be the end of existence.
So would absolute chaos, absolute randomness, absolute possibility - infinite possibilities - a theoretical state where everything was equally and simultaneously possible.

Life, your life, my life, all life, needs the elimination of possibilities and the promotion, cultivation, of specific possibilities - it needs probability to continue.

If all were ordered and followed a pattern then why would consciousness evolve?
All would be automatic.
All would be predictable.
There would be no need for judgment and choice.
No need for the illusion of choice, even.

Unless you are claiming that there's a god, some superior agency, that gets a kick out of tricking us mere mortals by letting us believe we have a choice when, in fact, we don't because it is all part of an absolute, all-encomassing pattern, i.e., order.  
Then, I can only assume that cynicism is the most appropriate attitude, if it has been determined for us to attain this height of awareness that we begin laughing at the joke because we're in on it - God's closest biddies who determined that we should become aware that it's all a façade, a farce.
We aren't even separate individuals, we are one and the same, tricked into believing that we are different.
In that case, let's hope we/I were chosen to be divinity's chums, and we can laugh at the joke being played on us, we, ourselves.
We tricking ourselves, as it were, already knowing if we will discover that it's all a trick, an illusion.

That god, we/I, is such a kidder.
We/I, god, help us.

Saytyr wrote:

Chaotic energies cannot be perceived because they cannot form stable, harmonious unities, so as to reach a level where man's sensual acuity can perceive them
Nevertheless, they interact, because they exist, with patterned energies.

"Cannot be perceived" is key.  Humans know that we cannot perceive the entire range of sounds, the entire range of colors, all forms of energy.

Oscillating, the word, the concept struck me this morning.  Imperceivably oscillating patterns, the stuff we are yet unable to perceive, but if the solar system, our revolving around our sun, and the concept of circular time were both incorporated, oscillating makes sense when applied as a descriptor for the motion of existence.

Maybe the oscillations are the frequencies(relating this again the frequencies used in perception) of patterns in existence

If energy is our model then vibration is how we would describe it within our four dimensional field of awareness.
Oscillation adapts this to a multi-dimensional plane which we are unable to perceive.

So, we can conceptualize a pattern - order - as a dimensional sequence of probable interactions.
Doesn't mean interactions will occur only that it is probable that it will occur.
These sequences are different - different patterns are interpreted by the conscious mind as different kinds of matter/energy.
Matter differs from energy due to tis speed....liquid, gas, mater, all how the mind translates different speeds of oscillation.

Random energies would be those with no regular, predictable sequence so the mind cannot interpret it, using void darkness to represent its impotence.
So space, existence is mostly void and dark....but this does not mean it is empty of energy.

Satyr wrote:

If energy is our model then vibration is how we would describe it within our four dimensional field of awareness.
Oscillation adapts this to a multi-dimensional plane which we are unable to perceive.

So, we can conceptualize a pattern - order - as a dimensional sequence of probable interactions.
Doesn't mean interactions will occur only that it is probable that it will occur.
These sequences are different - different patterns are interpreted by the conscious mind as different kinds of matter/energy.
Matter differs from energy due to tis speed....liquid, gas, mater, all how the mind translates different speeds of oscillation.  

Random energies would be those with no regular, predictable sequence so the mind cannot interpret it, using void darkness to represent its impotence.
So space, existence is mostly void and dark....but this does not mean it is empty of energy.

If by space you mean what is outside of Earth's atmosphere, think bigger, imagine dimensions separate from our four D made of undetectable oscillating frequencies.  Separate is technically a misnomer if all is oscillating conjuncting. Separate to our perceptions.  Which makes progression still unaccounted.

Does the theory of Complexity already cover this?  I've never read anything about it because I don't like to read much.

Anybody there?

An oscillating cycle that never completes its circular progression.

Space as in all existence, as possibility. From Heidegger.
If space = possibility, then all forms of roder, e.g., matter, liquid, gases, energies, are probabilities.

I conceptualize existence as an explosion, inflation, expanding possibilities.
So the process is never-ending but there is a finite limit which can never be attained because it is moving, changing, expanding.
This is why we cannot speak of a whole. The whole is altering, multiplying, the moment you speak the term, you think it, it has changed...
the mind compensates by creating a noetic boundary around a concept to include all changes within its singularity, a oneness.
We do the same for everyday things, like animals, stones...
The creature we name horse, ro bob the horse, is not the same as it was a minute ago, but we use the same term to refer to a process we encompass with a noetic boundary, usually starting at tis birth and death, both of which we may not experience.

Memory is the connector.
DNA memory or our memory.
We know the stone is the same because we hold it in memory, so when we smash it we still recall it as a unity.

WendyDarling wrote:

Does the theory of Complexity already cover this?  I've never read anything about it because I don't like to read much.

Anybody there?

An oscillating cycle that never completes its circular progression.

Complexity implies an occult order which will or can be revealed...and this is what is commonly called chaos.
In my metaphysics complexity and random energies are confused as being the same, because the mind needs order so it imagines it even when it cannot perceive it.
Chaos is terrifying to an organism.
An oscillating cycle that never completes is not a cycle....
To call something a pattern it must complete a perceptible sequence.
To project or imagine this completion is not its completion.

The necessity for consciousness is this unforeseeable, requiring real time reactions.
If all were ordered all would be automated...no need for adjustments.
All would go according to a plan, with predictable events and reactions.
No need for judgments and choices...
Unless you claim that existence has a motive, a telos.

Satyr wrote:

The necessity for consciousness is this unforeseeable, requiring real time reactions.
If all were ordered all would be automated...no need for adjustments.
All would go according to a plan, with predictable events and reactions.
No need for judgments and choices...
Unless you claim that existence has a motive, a telos.

Chaos is antithetical to our observational understanding of existence.  People fear it because it defies reason and the puppeteers use the concept to dumb down the masses keeping them in fear.

Well I haven't gotten to us yet, to consciousness and its continuity.  Playing with concepts to see where I can go.  I take it you haven't read about the theory of complexity?

I don't buy chaos as a possibility let alone an actuality.

Then don't.
Its actuality is not dependent on your acknowledgement.

Satyr wrote:

Then don't.
Its actuality is not dependent on your acknowledgement.

Have you contributed everything you can? To evaluate ideas on account of plausibility?

Don't know.
We'll see.

Satyr wrote:

Don't know.
We'll see.

Well, I will continue analyzing, evaluating, weighing out reason.

Back to oscillating, circular.

If I show you every point along a circle minus 1. If you were to not know that one point was missing, from looking at it, would you call it a circle or circular?

Projection....
I already have the concept of a circle in my mind. It is completed there.