Existence...

Nothing can create itself out of nothing.
There is no no-thing and soem-thing refers to ideas that are either the product of sensual stimulations - interactions - or are a synthesis and/or inversion, and/or combination of sensual input.
There si no state of non-existence...there is only existence.
So the qualifiers "one" and "none" do not apply to existence but to the abstraction of existence.
Numerical terms, like all symbols/words are representations of ideas - abstractions.
Abstractions exist, like a photo exists - as representation. What it represents may or may not exist, just like a painting may be of something real or something ideal.

All ideas are a synthesis or a mental inversion.
Therefore a mind can conceptualize existence as an idea, a whole, a one, and then invert it or negate it in his head with another idea - because mind works on binary system. The simplest and easiest to evolve - so good/evil, warm/cold, soft/hard, 1/0.
The subjective is binary...the real is multi-diemsional, but we only perceive four. So, the mind reduces the four to two - this is what abstraction is.
Just like a painter reduced a four dimensional tree to a two dimensional representation of a tree.

Satyr wrote:

Nothing can create itself out of nothing.
There is no no-thing and soem-thing refers to ideas that are either the product of sensual stimulations - interactions - or are a synthesis and/or inversion, and/or combination of sensual input.
There si no state of non-existence...there is only existence.
So the qualifiers "one" and "none" do not apply to existence but to the abstraction of existence.
Numerical terms, like all symbols/words are representations of ideas - abstractions.
Abstractions exist, like a photo exists - as representation. What it represents may or may not exist, just like a painting may be of something real or something ideal.

All ideas are a synthesis or a mental inversion.
Therefore a mind can conceptualize existence as an idea, a whole, a one, and then invert it or negate it in his head with another idea - because mind works on binary system. The simplest and easiest to evolve - so good/evil, warm/cold, soft/hard, 1/0.
The subjective is binary...the real is multi-diemsional, but we only perceive four. So, the mind reduces the four to two - this is what abstraction is.
Just like a painter reduced a four dimensional tree to a two dimensional representation of a tree.      

"There si no state of non-existence...there is only existence." Agreed.

Existence=perceived forms(?)and abstract ideas.  Thoughts? Question: Do ideas form patterns?

Thought can't be perceived directly only through actions - such as oral language.
This is also how we perceive motives.

Satyr wrote:

Thought can't be perceived directly only through actions - such as oral language.
This is also how we perceive motives.

I'm speaking to visible patterns vs. thought patterns.  We perceive our own thoughts.  Thoughts give rise to the actuality of duality or otherness so existence can become a multiplicity.

It’s a freaky concept but it also an avenue that explains existence being diverse.

Thoughts are an interpretation of patterns, a reaction.
Interpretation is a reduction of multiplicity to duality.

Satyr wrote:

Thoughts are an interpretation of patterns, a reaction.
Interpretation is a reduction of multiplicity to duality.

As long as the duality of thoughts/ideas is juxtaposed to another element a thing of mass, then that is all that is needed for differences to appear.

Working from my phone is for the birds. I’ll be receiving a call from someone who is familiar with philosophy soon to discuss my ideas. More will be accomplished with direct, free flowing communication. Wish me luck.

Juxtaposition is stream of thought.
One thought after another in a endless sequence...
Differences are how fluidity is experienced subjectively - we call it change to refer to this juxtaposition.

How does mindlessness make mind? Mindlessness=chaos Mind=order

We definitely need to discuss the rationalizations surrounding order and chaos.

Mind a manifestation of brain processing sensual and physical input, guided by genetic and memetic guidelines, and constantly tested validated in relation to an indifferent world.

I conceptualize mind as a movie projection of an image on a canvas - the brain is the projector, film are the memories, abstractions and world is the light.

We usually associate mind with that small part of consciousness, brain functions, which become aware of itself as part of a physical body. I call ti Ego, to distinguish it from the rest of the body and the brain functions.
So, mind is always that which cannot be perceived, so always a mystery that can be exploited as all mysteries have throughout human history to make all kinds of claims.
Just as the eye cannot see itself other than via reflection, mind cannot perceive itself other than via an other - as that which it is not.

Satyr wrote:

Mind a manifestation of brain processing sensual and physical input, guided by genetic and memetic guidelines, and constantly tested validated in relation to an indifferent world.

I conceptualize mind as a movie projection of an image on a canvas - the brain is the projector, film are the memories, abstractions and world is the light.  

We usually associate mind with that small part of consciousness, brain functions, which become aware of itself as part of a physical body. I call ti Ego, to distinguish it from the rest of the body and the brain functions.
So, mind is always that which cannot be perceived, so always a mystery that can be exploited as all mysteries have throughout human history to make all kinds of claims.
Just as the eye cannot see itself other than via reflection, mind cannot perceive itself other than via an other - as that which it is not.  

What does this have to do with your explanation for chaos and order?

Order amounts to understanding.

What does chaos amount to?

Chaos amonts to a challenges that necessitates consciousness, judgment, and choices.

Satyr wrote:

Chaos amonts to a challenges that necessitates consciousness, judgment, and choices.

How?

I explained that there.
I'm not going to repeat everything.

Satyr wrote:

I explained that there.
I'm not going to repeat everything.

Well, condense, simplify into one or two explanatory sentences. Can you invest at least that much into answering a direct question?

So demanding...

Chaos necessitates consciousness, judgment and choice.
If all were absolutely ordered - predictable, consistent, repeating - there would be no necessity for a big brain that can perceive and judge, and analyze and make a choice.

You're lazy, aren't you?
Issues with reading.
Bad eyes?
What is it?
Computer issues?
No patience, for sure. Low tolerance. Hyper.

Satyr wrote:

So demanding...

Chaos necessitates consciousness, judgment and choice.
If all were absolutely ordered - predictable, consistent, repeating - there would be no necessity for a big brain that can perceive and judge, and analyze and make a choice.

You're lazy, aren't you?
Issues with reading.
Bad eyes?
What is it?
Computer issues?
No patience, for sure. Low tolerance. Hyper.

Hugs back.

Why would order be static perfection? Can you not change your mind? We don’t need chaos to change course. New ideas give us reasons to make different decisions.

Perfection would not change to imperfection.
I know the spiel, "change is perfection"...but I define perfection and why I deny its existence..
Ask yourself, are you perfect? Am I?
How can the perfect be made up of imperfection?

By "perfect" I mean ordered, absolute symmetry.
Why would order develop consciousness?
For what necessity?

Or should you declare consciousness as a necessary part of order?
Word games.

Why choice, if all is perfect and ordered?
To choose what?
Why natural selection?
What is being selected if all is perfect and ordered and inevitable?
What is suffering?
Why do we feel need, desire?
Why do we will if we already are?

Satyr wrote:

Perfection would not change to imperfection.
I know the spiel, "change is perfection"...but I define perfection and why I deny its existence..
Ask yourself, are you perfect? Am I?
How can the perfect be made up of imperfection?

By "perfect" I mean ordered, absolute symmetry.
Why would order develop consciousness?
For what necessity?

Or should you declare consciousness as a necessary part of order?
Word games.

Why choice, if all is perfect and ordered?
To choose what?
Why natural selection?
What is being selected if all is perfect and ordered and inevitable?
What is suffering?
Why do we feel need, desire?
Why do we will if we already are?

Consciousness is a constant, always exists, so existence never began, its always been and will continue on eternally.

I’m not making any claims about perfection existing, actually the opposite. I agree that perfection is an idea, not a reality. You seem to want to make general consciousness about a religion, and a specific one at that.

WendyDarling wrote:

Satyr wrote:

Perfection would not change to imperfection.
I know the spiel, "change is perfection"...but I define perfection and why I deny its existence..
Ask yourself, are you perfect? Am I?
How can the perfect be made up of imperfection?

By "perfect" I mean ordered, absolute symmetry.
Why would order develop consciousness?
For what necessity?

Or should you declare consciousness as a necessary part of order?
Word games.

Why choice, if all is perfect and ordered?
To choose what?
Why natural selection?
What is being selected if all is perfect and ordered and inevitable?
What is suffering?
Why do we feel need, desire?
Why do we will if we already are?

Consciousness is a constant, always exists, so existence never began, its always been and will continue on eternally.

Yes.
Eternally, continuously, with no end, and no beginning.

WendyDarling wrote:

I’m not making any claims about perfection existing, actually the opposite. I agree that perfection is an idea, not a reality. You seem to want to make general consciousness about a religion, and a specific one at that.

The opposite...i am trying to demystify consciousness, love, morality....sex.
Women, and men-children, prefer it remain mysterious, magical....divine.

Satyr wrote:

WendyDarling wrote:

Satyr wrote:

Perfection would not change to imperfection.
I know the spiel, "change is perfection"...but I define perfection and why I deny its existence..
Ask yourself, are you perfect? Am I?
How can the perfect be made up of imperfection?

By "perfect" I mean ordered, absolute symmetry.
Why would order develop consciousness?
For what necessity?

Or should you declare consciousness as a necessary part of order?
Word games.

Why choice, if all is perfect and ordered?
To choose what?
Why natural selection?
What is being selected if all is perfect and ordered and inevitable?
What is suffering?
Why do we feel need, desire?
Why do we will if we already are?

Consciousness is a constant, always exists, so existence never began, its always been and will continue on eternally.

Yes.
Eternally, continuously, with no end, and no beginning.  

WendyDarling wrote:

I’m not making any claims about perfection existing, actually the opposite. I agree that perfection is an idea, not a reality. You seem to want to make general consciousness about a religion, and a specific one at that.

The opposite...i am trying to demystify consciousness, love, morality....sex.
Women, and men-children, prefer it remain mysterious, magical....divine.  

Yes, but why blame consciousness for your consciousness if both yours and its imperfections are necessary? if growth is necessary?

I not blaming anything nor anyone. I'm placing responsibility so as to promote growth.

Satyr wrote:

I not blaming anything nor anyone. I'm placing responsibility so as to promote growth.

Growth is inevitable. But what kind of growth?

Do you agree that non-existence is only an idea, imagining?

WendyDarling wrote:

Satyr wrote:

I not blaming anything nor anyone. I'm placing responsibility so as to promote growth.

Growth is inevitable.

"Growth is inevitable"?
Then why eat? Why exercise, why learn?

WendyDarling wrote:

But what kind of growth?

This depends on your objectives...and your objectives will be based on nature.

WendyDarling wrote:

Do you agree that non-existence is only an idea, imagining?

Didn't I tell you that?
There is no non-existence....that is an idea that begins with the conceptualization of existence as a "whole" a "one" a "thing"...a 1....which can then be negated with another idea, the nil.

Those imbeciles that speak of "clouds" and "contraptions" are trapped in clouds using linguistic contraptions.

Their secret is...they don't really want to escape the trap.
Get it, tuts?

What is being in terms of thought?

Becoming reduced to being.

Okay.

So far only one person understands me in the slightest. One is better than none, so progress.

Would anyone, other than Satyr, like to make a claim about the chaos/order theory or the complexity theory?

I'd like to reason both out of existence.

I am too lazy to read all that malarkey. Admittedly, no patience for BS.

WendyDarling wrote:

what about existence?

All of existence is something so its a natural fallacy to hang onto the idea of nothing and non-existence.

Mr Reasonable wrote:

what about the empty spaces between things?

See what I mean?
Brain-dead.
Nothing from the neck up.
This guy once challenged the idea that money is a abstraction of resources.

Imagine after all the explaining I had to face shit like this?
I spent years, years, wasting my time on minds like his...and worse...oh far worse.
You know one.
I keep them out.
Can't be bothered.
And I watch them struggle with the simplest concepts with that self-assured confidence of theirs.

Satyr wrote:

Perfection would not change to imperfection.
I know the spiel, "change is perfection"...but I define perfection and why I deny its existence..
Ask yourself, are you perfect? Am I?
How can the perfect be made up of imperfection?

By "perfect" I mean ordered, absolute symmetry.
Why would order develop consciousness?
For what necessity?

Or should you declare consciousness as a necessary part of order?
Word games.

Why choice, if all is perfect and ordered?
To choose what?
Why natural selection?
What is being selected if all is perfect and ordered and inevitable?
What is suffering?
Why do we feel need, desire?
Why do we will if we already are?

Based on observed reality, perfection is unattainable. If the unattainable perfection found in religious dogma, was thrown out, like gone. Where would that leave us?

In other words, left with imperfect order naturally?

In other news, why is there an assumption that an absolute consciousness would be perfect, based on what observations?

Is imperfection a curse or a blessing?

WendyDarling wrote:

In other words, why is there an assumption that an absolute consciousness would be perfect, based on what observations?

If you are suggesting that it wouldn't be perfect, then you assent that there is no absolute consciousness.

Absolute implies perfection.