Existence...

No, order/chaos pre-exist life.
Life is ordering therefore it harvests order, is attracted to higher forms of order, and fears chaos.
Change is the experience of fluid interactivity.
Because the mind conceptualizes by converting fluidity to static abstractions - like a photograph freezes space/time, it experiences fluid space/time by juxtaposing a sequences of mental snapshots. It is this juxtaposition that reveals change.

Satyr wrote:

No, order/chaos pre-exist life.
Life is ordering therefore it harvests order, is attracted to higher forms of order, and fears chaos.
Change is the experience of fluid interactivity.
Because the mind conceptualizes by converting fluidity to static abstractions - like a photograph freezes space/time, it experiences fluid space/time by juxtaposing a sequences of mental snapshots. It is this juxtaposition that reveals change.

Logically, how is order formed? Then reorganized?

If I go down the road that all is order and our small perception believed to be chaos is in the big picture order, am I biting off more than is chewable?

No...."not all is order".
Can you read?
Order = patterned energies.
Chaos = non-patterned, random, energies.
Some claim chaos is only complexity, rejecting randomness.

Energy is existence. Some energy is ordered some is not - Yin/Yang.
If not for this flaw in order there would be no existence...ergo chaos is to be thanked, even if it is also the source of our anxiety and contributes to our demise.
Energy and Existence are synonymes, though many cannot know or understand it.
This means that there is nothing other than energy = dynamic, interactive...
We can use any metaphor to replace Energy...Fire....Water....I prefer the terms vibration (four dimensional space/time) oscillations (multi-dimsional space time).
What is vibrating, you will ask?
Nothing...you are asking what your brain needs to conceptualize it...so use a string.
But in fact there is only vibration, energy.

Satyr wrote:

No...."not all is order".
Can you read?
Order = patterned energies.
Chaos = non-patterned, random, energies.
Some claim chaos is only complexity, rejecting randomness.

Energy is existence. Some energy is ordered some is not - Yin/Yang.
If not for this flaw in order there would be no existence...ergo chaos is to be thanked, even if it is also the source of our anxiety and contributes to our demise.
Energy and Existence are synonymes, though many cannot know or understand it.
This means that there is nothing other than energy = dynamic, interactive...
We can use any metaphor to replace Energy...Fire....Water....I prefer the terms vibration (four dimensional space/time) oscillations (multi-dimsional space time).
What is vibrating, you will ask?
Nothing...you are asking what your brain needs to conceptualize it...so use a string.
But in fact there is only vibration, energy.  

How is order formed?

It is.
Your addiction to a creator is evident.
A book is created....the trees evolve...
Order/Chaos are primordial.
They require no creator as life proves.

But, in theory...order emerges from chaos.
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So, if chaos is randomness....and space is expanding possibility, and matter/energy is probability, then chaos expands random possibilities...one of which is the near-abolute state we call the Big Bang.
Randomness means that order can spontaneously emerge, whereas absolute order means nothing can spontaneously emerge.
Order limits possibilities, that is what probability means.

Are you contending that it is logical for order to create itself? Accidentally even, seems reasonable?

Chaos creates order, dear.

But if all requires a creator, then what created the creator, and then what or who created that....and on...
Using your "logic".

Satyr wrote:

It is.
Your addiction to a creator is evident.
A book is created....the trees evolve...
Order/Chaos are primordial.
They require no creator as life proves.

Trees evolve like a book evolves. Idea onward.

Ha!!.
So needy.
Books are constructed by humans using existing materials...they are not conjured out of nothing and from nowhere.

Your own logic...follow it.
Who created the creator. then who or what created that, and then....and on and on.

Existence just is.
It requires no creator....and it is experienced as order, but also contains chaos.
All we can say is that it is dynamic, and interactive - Energy.
Nothing more.
Those who claim to know more have to provide the evidence.

If you know of an absolute that does not depend on your mind to exist then show me.
If you've discovered a singularity, don't tell me, show me.

Satyr wrote:

Chaos creates order, dear.

But if all requires a creator, then what created the creator, and then what or who created that....and on...
Using your "logic".

I'm saying organized creation is all there is and has been. I can accept that logic.  How did creation become organized?  Energized idea by idea, perhaps?

Does my ego demand that creation itself be created?  

That's why I call existence the singularity.  Ties up the package in a way that I find palatable.  Glass half full rather than half empty.

Order and chaos....
Not only order.

Glass is both half-full and Half-empty.
It's not one or the other.

There is no end to existence.


...no beginning.


It is.

Existence is.
No need for your qualifications: end, beginning, one, nil...those are your mental hang-ups which you cannot escape, so we can't even use them representationally, metaphorically, because for you they are literal.
It is.

So, yes, if we want to harmonize our mental abstractions with the apparent then we can use this "no end" as our representation of fluidity.
A fluidity, process, interactivity with no beginning and no end.

Only consciousness will end.

Rocks don't need consciousness to exist.

Our own continuum...as long as there is life consciousness exists.
Our own memories end, or are passed on, genetically and/or memetically.

WendyDarling wrote:

.

Rocks don't need consciousness to exist.

Do rocks need consciousness...or rather, the concept of a rock is an interpretation of a perceived congruence of patterns, cut away from the background.
Like we can cut away a single note in a symphony.
A rock upon a pile of rocks can be detached from the background to fabricate the abstraction of a single rock - one stone.

The cohesion that binds multiplicity, the continuity of transference.

The pattern that unites all patterns, tell us, when some energies are not patterned.
What unifies the non-patterned - chaos?
What logic?

To humans, with limited perception, chaos justifies the unfathomable, the antithetical to human logic.

But I am not using it to justify anything.
Am I?
I use nature to justify my positions.
I am saying, this is why absolute knowledge - omniscience - is impossible.
I am saying nobody, including me, NOBODY, knows the absolute because it doesn't exist...all we have are approximations, estimations - probabilities.
I claim to have a theory of higher probability in the areas I am interested...not in everything.

Perceiving patterns.
But patterns aren't eternal.

Existence is...
Patterns.

You cannot show me chaos because for that to truly be proven you would have to stop existing. I would have to stop existing. All multiplicity would have to stop existing which isn't an option. No beginning, no end.

WendyDarling wrote:

Existence is...
 Patterns.

You cannot show me chaos because for that to truly be proven you would have to stop existing.  I would have to stop existing. All multiplicity would have to stop existing which isn't an option.  No beginning, no end.

No, I cannot show you chaos because it lacks a pattern we can perceive - interpret.
Chaos is part of my metaphysics, only provable in relation to physics, i.e., how it interacts with order.

So, I place it in my metaphysical foundations, without it ever affecting my observations of the physical - order.
I experience it as the uncanny, the unforeseeable, the irrational.
I never claim to know the absolute, or to have secret knowledge of it.
But this ignorance is not a justification for any absurdity, especially those that contradict the experienced world.
I feel the absence in myself.
I am imperfect. I know nothing which is perfect.
I will because I lack.

Baptizing what is perfect "perfect" is a copout.
All feel their own imperfections....even if they cannot admit them.
All feel the absence because they need.

Satyr wrote:

WendyDarling wrote:

Existence is...
 Patterns.

You cannot show me chaos because for that to truly be proven you would have to stop existing.  I would have to stop existing. All multiplicity would have to stop existing which isn't an option.  No beginning, no end.

No, I cannot show you chaos because it lacks a pattern we can perceive - interpret.
Chaos is part of my metaphysics, only provable in relation to physics, i.e., how it interacts with order.

So, I place it in my metaphysical foundations, without it ever affecting my observations of the physical - order.
I experience it as the uncanny, the unforeseeable, the irrational.
I never claim to know the absolute, or to have secret knowledge of it.
But this ignorance is not a justification for any absurdity, especially those that contradict the experienced world.
I feel the absence in myself.
I am imperfect. I know nothing which is perfect.
I will because I lack.

Baptizing what is perfect "perfect" is a copout.
All feel their own imperfections....even if they cannot admit them.
All feel the absence because they need.

Let me put it (chaos) another way: When all understanding ceases to exist, chaos will exist.

Weird.

WendyDarling wrote:

Let me put it (chaos) another way: When all understanding ceases to exist, chaos will exist.

No, that can be complexity.

Chaos is what can never be understood. What lacks pattern so is counter-intuitive.
Abrahamics prefer to believe that whatever is unknown is knowable.
This is, basically, what occurred with the "death of god"...human psychology substituted it with science, and nationalism.
An alternative absolute authority or representation of absolute order - totalitarian, authoritarian.
Omniscience is impossible. It is another version of the end - end of knowledge/understanding.

Patterns are observable. The logical flaw pertains to chaos.  Chaos is unobservable, theoretical, non-existent.

Chaos does not fit into your paradigm of provability, of what you see occurring around you.  

There is a failure to follow your own standards by accepting sci-fiction as science fact.

I am following your standard of actual observability.

WendyDarling wrote:

Patterns are observable. The logical flaw pertains to chaos.  Chaos is unobservable, theoretical, non-existent.

Patterns can form stable unities....chaotic energies cannot, so they cannot rise to the level where they can be observed.
But they do interact with patterned energies and we can detect them indirectly.

WendyDarling wrote:

Chaos does not fit into your paradigm of provability, of what you see occurring around you.  

I know...so I place it in the category of metaphysics.

Quote :

There is a failure to follow your own standards by accepting sci-fiction as science fact.

I am following your standards of actual observability.

Good.
But I never use chaos to prove anything...only to disprove.
I find support in eastern philosophy - Yin/Yang, and in ancient theogony mythologies.

Chaos follows from order....where there is pattern there is randomness which makes the pattern distinct.
We value patterns because of chaos.

Here again is my hierarchy:


The middle is the start.
The top and bottom must be aligned, in harmony, supported, by the middle.

Chaos is not non-existent.
Chaos is part of existence, though it is unobservable because organisms can only perceive order.  

Existence = interactive, dynamic order/chaos. Flux.
What interacts exists. What exists interacts.
Chaos refers to energies with no pattern, no order. So the mind cannot process the data, os it translate them as darkness, as void.
The mind also does this with complex patterns, ergo chaos and complexity are confused as being the same.
This complexity is where the occult claims its dominance, pretending to know and understand what others do not.

I claim this omniscience, or the occult, is a ruse.
If higher complexity were known and understood it could be displayed, or simplified, or used to dominate without coercion ro seductive strategies. It would be a source of power that would be obvious.

I claim existence is unknowable - not absolutely knowable - because of chaos, and those who claim to know it all are liars - charlatans exploiting human need/desire.
We can only hope for higher probability, not absolutes.